People see what they want to see. The females rule over the males with an iron fist to the point that third sons are sacrificed to Lolth.
In the case of the drow, people see things that aren't there because they want an excuse to be offended.
I talked to my friend. She said that’s exactly why the drow are misogynistic, because they portray gynocracy (rule by girls) in the worst possible light.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I have no problem with Lolth getting knocked down a peg and more drow breaking free of her yoke. There have always been goodly drow--if they would stop shoehorning Eilistraee. But Relentless completely ignores her--though there were plenty of opportunities.
If anyone is interested, there was actually a discussion about it (and other things in the book) on the Candlekeep forums. I'll link it here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23594. The first several posts aren't about Lolth, so if don't want to read them, scroll down a bit. I'm sorry to give a link to another site, but I feel it gives a sense of some of the issues that arose.
Eilistraee is ignored because the story isn't about her. Drizzt is the hero of those books and he's pretty much abandoned Mielikki too. I don't think you're going to see him start to follow Eilistraee now. In one of the earlier books, Drizzt even mentions Eilistraee. She simply does not have a place in a story about Drizzt, nor is the story about redeeming the drow. Lolth however does, because he's been in conflict with Lolth since she was still Lloth. By using the route that he chose, Salvatore has started to knock Lolth down a notch or two, and open some additional room for...deviance...among the drow. He's given them a reason to question, and to therefore start to think for themselves.
That helps Eilistraee as much or more than her trying to ride in to save the day.
Eilistraee is ignored because Bob doesn't like her. Even Mielikki's sudden decree was random and OOC (as someone in the Candlekeep forum said, I don't think Bob does a lot of fact checking). And I'm not saying Drizzt has to be the one to worship Eilistraee, but I think there have been a number of missed opportunities to bring in her followers. Eilistraee may have been mentioned a few times in passing, but that's it.
The last several books have indeed been about redemption for the drow. Drizzt himself was not trying to do it, but he nevertheless became a "beacon", to quote the book. Drizzt, a renegade drow who really didn't want anything more to do with his people (not that I entirely blame him, considering his experience), compared to Eilistraeens, who have been offering a better path for centuries? To barely even acknowledge that makes little sense to me.
Though in all fairness to Bob, he hasn't been the only one to ignore Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. They were offed in 4e, though I remember hearing that one of the main reasons for this was because they wanted to make Drizzt "special", and they did want the drow to be inherently evil. Fortunately, they've changed their stance, and Eilistraee and Vhaeraun have returned in 5e, There was a chosen of Vhaeraun in The Adversary, and there was an update on Eilistraee and her followers in Death Masks, but other than that, they're still being shoehorned. I hope you're right in that this paves the way for more Eilistraeens (and even Vhaeraunites).
I don't like Eilistraee much either. She's too convenient, and it she feels cheap. I also don't like how sexist she was in the old days. She's supposed to be good, but males can't be priests? GTFO. Even Lolth allowed male priests in 2e, even if they weren't allowed to progress to high levels. That's all on Ed Greenwood though. I usually have my surface drow follow human gods; Selune and Mystra are my go-to goddesses. The only time I've ever considered following Eilistraee, is a fiend-pact warlock concept I came up with where I wanted to be good, and pacted to a yochlol who was trying to infiltrate the Eilistraeens.
You heard right. Many Arrows was wiped out because they wanted orcs to be wholly evil. Same with the drow; they (WotC) wanted Drizzt to be even MORE of a special snowflake (IIRC this was in an interview with Chris Perkins) so Tos'un Armgo had to go back to being evil (I really liked him, he was a great example of someone starting off evil and being redeemed). It was so, so stupid. Since Catti-brie was chosen of Mielikki, and supposedly Mielikki is the one that decreed that all orcs are evil, Drizzt gave her the finger. I think that was Salvatore's way of giving the finger to WotC for their stupidity.
Now they've come full circle and they throw it back to Salvatore to unscrew what they forced him to screw up in the first place. Using the tool that he had put in place years ago to do what he did was imo, nothing short of brilliant. There's no way he could have known back then the direction that WotC was going to take and that he'd have a tool he could use to bring that about. While things have turned in the direction of redeeming the drow, it started off as a way to get Bregan d'Aerthe out of Luskan and back into the underdark. That writing has been on the wall since at least the SCAG. I remember reading in there about the Arcane Brotherhood being back in charge of the Hosttower, and I was like, what about Gromph and Bregan D'Aerthe?
She adds nuance to the drow pantheon, and shows that there have always been goodly drow. I did find the males only allowed to be lay followers a bit weird, but that did change, though I don’t remember when (they did have Elkantar, a high priest, in AD&D, but I don’t know if he was an exception or not). However, unlike you with Selune and Mystra, Bob doesn’t give the drow any alternatives. He doesn’t like Eilistraee because she is a goddess, is my impression, and feels that the drow would somehow become good only because they were “coerced” into following her, which, like her or not, is not in her nature to do. Unlike Lolth, she does not force.
I liked Tos’un too. I wish his story had ended differently. There have also been goodly orcs since 2e: the Ondthi, followers of Eldath. But they have been virtually ignored for a long time by WotC. I myself only learned of them recently. Maybe, with this new direction WotC is taken, we’ll see them featured again.
It’s interesting you say Mielikki’s decree was Bob giving WotC the middle finger for their decision concerning Obould, which could very well be true, but I took it as him giving a middle finger to the FR deities. He doesn’t like Eilistraee, fine, but I get the impression (based on a recent interview I saw with him), that he, consciously or not, is projecting his bad experiences with Catholicism into a shared world where the gods are very real, so it was basically him trying to shed a bad light on any faith, good deity or bad (notice how, despite the books featuring the Monastery of the Yellow Rose, Ilmater wasn’t even mentioned). I didn’t see this decree of Mielikki’s shown anywhere else (correct me if I am wrong). While Mielikki may have no love for orcs, she wouldn’t condone just killing them every which way, which is what Catti-brie implied, iirc. Which, could just be Catti-bire being a zealot and using Mielikki’s name to justify her views, but, while zealotry and twisting of a doctrine certainly happens in Faerun, regardless of whether the deity itself is good or evil, this seemed like a way of saying that all religion leads to corruption, because, rather than having Drizzt say “Mielikki wouldn’t condone that”, he had Drizzt renounce Mieliiki. To me, the “because Mielikki says so” stance of Catti-brie again feels like projection, because it brings Mielikki to the level of Lolth, an evil goddess who forces her followers into submission. Believe it or not, most deities do allow free will and thinking. So again, it just feels like Bob is projecting some real world bitterness.
Maybe it was indeed his way of giving WotC the finger, but he used a goodly goddess to do it, and to make Drizzt, as you said, abandon her. This is somewhat ironic, as Drizzt has always said that Mielikki is what is in his heart—which is often (except in cases such as Lolth), why Faerunians, while most are polytheistic, end up leaning towards one deity above the others, based on ethics, values, and morals. Then suddenly, according to Catti-brie, Mielikki says all orcs are evil and deserve to die. She said this in the 5e era, though before WotC’s diversity statement, so maybe it was another mandate by WotC (which is then on them for twisting Mielikki), or it was Bob giving WotC the finger, as you suggested, but again, my point above stands.
Bob did say in an interview he had been setting things up for several books, even before WotC decided to go the new route (making drow more diverse).
There could be something to giving the finger to all the Gods due to a bad experience. IIRC, Catti-Brie's comments were in The Companions, a 4e era book. 4e lore just breaks so so much stuff. That's part of why I've always felt that it was a subtle dig at WotC though is they forced him to directly undo a lot of the things he did previously when it came to 4e, and for mostly no /good/ reason. Not wanting to write about the gods in general makes a lot of sense. Now that I come to think of it, none of the other FR stuff that he's done has had much from any of the gods either. The Cleric Quintet/Cadderly stuff perhaps? That all got dropped like a hot potato too, but I think 4e shanked Denier as well. I could see an author wanting to not want to write about gods and minimizing them in his books.
My personal dislike of Eilistraee goes all the way back to 2e. She's just never sat right with me. While yes, she diversifies the drow pantheon, she's always struck me as kind of cringey. Vhaeraun doesn't bother me, he's kind of cool. I kind of like Kiaransalee too. Selvatarm I like and feel a bit bad for, he pretty much gets dumped on. He's the one I am hoping comes out of this in much better shape. Zinzerena I like the concept of, but haven't seen much on her. Ghaunadaur is just kind of lame. Eilistraee though...I've just always been annoyed by. I can't put my finger on it, because I /should/ like her. I think that Ed Greenwood just wrote her in a very cringey manner and I've never gotten past that initial bias. First males couldn't become priests at all. Then, he was like FINE, you can be a male priest, but you have to spend time shape changed into a female first. Then he removed that too. And everything is dance around naked. Eilistraee in my eyes is just over sexualized in a way that just makes me roll my eyes. I've seen a lot of complaints about Lolthian drow being over-sexualized and misogynistic but at least Lolth is up front and honest about it. Eilistraee is just kind of packaged as too obvious of an answer for good drow for me to personally get behind and historically she's crapped on males even more than Lolth, while pretending to be nice. I could probably be on board with /her church/ being messed up, but there's still the whole she's an easy answer and that's just not compelling to me.
Lolth on the other hand, I've always really liked. She's just messed up and provides me lots of entertainment. She's like a classic supervillian who has all these grandiose plans that just always FAIL. I mean seriously, what has Lolth/Araushnee /not/ screwed up. She lets you get away with some weird concepts, because she loves chaos and...she might get behind this character concept because it makes her laugh and that's reason enough.
Bob's always been a bit of a step ahead, he tried to diversify the orcs at the end of 3e with many arrows. I still don't think that he /planned/ to diversify the drow as that's a bit of a big step for him to choose without WotC buy-in (especially after the travesty of 4e's lore changes), but I'll certainly give him credit for having the tools in place to do so. I do remember an interview with him where after WotC dropped their plans for I think it was 4e, he and Ed looked at each other and were like...what do we do? I'd not be surprised if this is a result of whatever contingency plan they cooked up way back in the day. Bob ignoring Eilistraee, might be down to something as simple as considering her to be Ed's and not being willing to "get her wrong". I'm more than OK with her not being a part of the conversation in his novels though whatever happens. Let the drow who want to head her way do so, let them go another way if that's what they choose.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I'm not saying every book has to (or should) be god-centered, but Bob seems to crap on all of them, whether they're benevolent (Mielikki), or evil (Lolth). He's writing in a world where the deities are very much a part of the setting, so it's hard to completely ignore them. He can minimize their appearance in his books if he wants, but the way he handles religion as a whole really feels like he is projecting real world bitterness. I myself am not overly religious and don't associate with any "organized" rw religion, but I don't shy away from the concept in Forgotten Realms. The gods are part of the setting, and while there are certainly individual deities I dislike, I wouldn't give the finger to all of them just because I had a bad real world experience, or didn't like some of them. The Companions was sort of both a 4e and 5e book. It was part of the Sundering series, which was the transition series from one edition to the other. Maybe it was a mandate from WotC (I fully agree 4e screwed up so much), but it also felt like projection, and, quite frankly, a misunderstanding of Mielikki. While Mielikki may hate orcs and goblins because they destroy forests, she does not condone genocide, which is why Catti-brie was advocating. The whole thing really just felt like projection.
I remember the interview where he talked about his conversation with Greenwood after 4e was announced: "We have to fix this". Several years later, James Wyatt pulled him aside and said they needed to fix this, lol. Even though Eilistraee may be Ed's creation, it's a shared world. Elaine wrote about her several times. With perhaps the exception of some signature characters, the authors shared each other's creations all the time (they were all writing in a world Ed created, after all). Even if Bob doesn't like Eilistraee, wanting to diversify the drow but essentially present Lolth as the only drow deity doesn't really help with that image, imho. He could even have shown Vhaeraunites (though he was still technically "evil").
A lot of damage was done to Eilistraee by the war of the Spiderqueen series too. Smedman in particular crapped all over her. I think his older works and opinions on Mielikki get the spirit of the goddess correct. I also feel that's why Catti-brie's projection felt forced. It wasn't necessary; if he didn't want to write Mielikki as part of the story any more, no blood no foul he could have just stopped. She (Mielikki) was never /central/ to the stories, just something of an explanation (and one I enjoyed). That's why I feel that it was more of a shot at WotC for being stupid than it was projection of religious hate. If I ever got to sit down with him and have a cup of coffee, that's certainly something I'd ask, because the Mielikki blow off has always annoyed me. I'd really like to know the truth of why he did it, even if I couldn't ever tell anyone.
The fact that Bob doesn't turn to the gods to solve all problems is actually something I like. The fact that he repeatedly turns to Jarlaxle and Kimmuriel instead...that bugs me. I hate Kimmuriel with such a passion. I by far prefer more hands off deities (and I think Ed hits the Mystra/Seven Sisters ride in on their white horses to save the day far far too much as well).
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I can agree with that. I enjoyed the War of the Spider Queen series, but they and Lady Penitent did paint an inaccurate portrayal of Eilistraee (imho, Elaine was best in her depiction of Eilistraee and her followers). My impression of Bob in regards to his religious bitterness stemmed from the fact that he often seemed to paint those of faith as ignorant and somehow silly (with the exception of perhaps Cadderly and a few others), or outright zealot (like Catti-brie or the Lolthite priestesses), and that that those who rejected it (Drizzt), as "right". Even though it is of course just the character's opinion, Drizzt is used to show the "moral high ground", and authors often (though not always, of course) use at least one main character to show that, which makes Drizzt come off as "right". He also only really shows the evil deity appearing (Lolth), and doesn't present the benevolent alternative (Eilsitraee, or even Vhaeraun). You don't have to like Eilistraee, but when you only present the corruption of religion (Lolth, Mielikki's supposed decree), it presents a very skewed image. I could give more examples, but I'll stop there lol. I of course could be entirely wrong (if you ever sit down with him, let me know lol).
Also, this impression was heightened by recent interviews I saw with him, which is why I really feel like he is projecting. I agree that Mielikki's 180 felt very random and forced, and it could have easily just been Bob giving WotC the middle finger, as you said, but it also could have been projection. I don't care what Bob's real world religious views (or non-views) are. I would just prefer he didn't project that bitterness--if that is indeed what it is--into a world where there are numerous gods, good and bad, and keeping them in the background is different than crapping over all of them just because he has some anger towards his experiences with real world religion.
I'm not saying Bob should have a literal deus ex machina lol. I do enjoy godly involvement sometimes (I did like the drowic pantheon making appearances in War of the Spider Queen and Lady Penitent, and the Avatar series was fun. I also enjoyed the beginning of Evermeet). I agree that a god coming in to sit down for tea is a bit much, but I think an avatar, or, more indirectly, signs and visions, or a voice, can heighten a story. They don't have to be central to the story, but again, this is a world where the gods are very real, with almost everyone worshiping one (usually multiple) deities, and if Bob prefers to keep their involvement minimal, okay, but this goes back to my point that he's only showing the corrupted drow as the ones who follow a faith, and those who reject it as "enlightened". This presents the skewed image I mentioned above, and denies that there are goodly deities for drow (Eilistraee, and to an extent, Vhaeraun). It doesn't have to mean Eilistraee or Vhaeraun themselves make an actual appearance, but their followers were also pretty much ignored. It also kind of ignores the fact that there have always been goodly drow, even if Bob himself says there always have been (and would help show that not all drow are fated to end up in the Abyss/Demonweb Pits lol).
I think the thing with the drow is, that so much of their actual evil is tied to their faith. Eilistraee is an un-necessary distraction to the story being told. I was actually /afraid/ that WotC was going to reach for the easy button and point at Eilistraee, wipe their hands and call it good. What it /appears/ he is doing just so much better. To me, it appears he's breaking the faith between the drow and Lolth (at least in Menzoberranzan or some of the houses) and giving the drow a /choice/.
That's way more compelling than just jumping ship to a new goddess.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Agree to disagree then. With Lolth, yes, much of their evil is tied to their faith, but like I said, faith (in general), was shown as corrupting, whether it was Lolth or Mielikki. That's why I said it presents a skewed image of gods in the Realms (whether they play a minimal or central role). I don't see Eilistraee as unnecessary, and I actually sincerely hope WotC stops ignoring her and Vhaeraun, and shows that the drow aren't only bound to an evil goddess. I don't see it as jumping ship, I see it as Eilistraee doing what she's always done; offering a better path for the drow. Yes, the drow deserve choice, but Eilistraee can be part of that choice (at least present it as an option, rather than completely throwing her away like they did in 4e). WotC can find at least some of their answers in lore that is already there (Eilistraee, the Ondthi), and then expand from there.
Just to toss a dash of cold water on this, I would point out that the lore here is only for her (later) Forgotten Realms incarnation. She was originally a Greyhawk villainous demon and her backstory is a bit different. For one thing, she has a connection to The Elder Elemental God (and no, despite WotC claiming otherwise, he's neither Tharizdun nor an aspect of Tharizdun). Lolth's connection to the EEG, of course, is partly that of a rival, since she was involved in The Temple of Elemental Evil along with Iuz the Old and Zuggtmoy, Lady of Fungi. The Elemental Nodes in The Temple of Elemental Evil match EXACTLY the "keys" found inside the platinum egg used in part of her Demon Web.
Several powerful Drow houses switched allegiance to worship the Elder Elemental God. It was they, through the Evil High Priestess Eclavdra, who organized the giants to raid into The Grand Duchy of Geoff (G1-3 Against the Giants) as well as helped The Scarlet Brotherhood and others with forming The Slavers in Pomarj (through the female Drow Fighter/Cleric Edralve). Lolth does in fact have Male clerics, both Drow (who cannot rise above 4th level in AD&D 1E) and Humans (Lareth the Beautiful, Master of the Moathouse ruins in T1: The Village of Hommlet) is 5th level, so presumably he could advance as far as Lolth could grant him new spells).
I don't think that Bob's portrayal of the gods in his later FR novels is because he's trying to give a Take That at WotC. If you look at his non-D&D books, he tends to dump on religion just as heavily. I'd say he really just hates religion and starting in the late 90s or early 00s he became less subtle about it than Garth Ennis.
Regarding Lolth's portrayal in Greyhawk, yeah, that's no longer canon. She's since been retconned to be a lot closer to her FR incarnation, though she's ranked as an Intermediate deity rather than a Greater one.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Just to toss a dash of cold water on this, I would point out that the lore here is only for her (later) Forgotten Realms incarnation. She was originally a Greyhawk villainous demon and her backstory is a bit different. For one thing, she has a connection to The Elder Elemental God (and no, despite WotC claiming otherwise, he's neither Tharizdun nor an aspect of Tharizdun). Lolth's connection to the EEG, of course, is partly that of a rival, since she was involved in The Temple of Elemental Evil along with Iuz the Old and Zuggtmoy, Lady of Fungi. The Elemental Nodes in The Temple of Elemental Evil match EXACTLY the "keys" found inside the platinum egg used in part of her Demon Web.
Several powerful Drow houses switched allegiance to worship the Elder Elemental God. It was they, through the Evil High Priestess Eclavdra, who organized the giants to raid into The Grand Duchy of Geoff (G1-3 Against the Giants) as well as helped The Scarlet Brotherhood and others with forming The Slavers in Pomarj (through the female Drow Fighter/Cleric Edralve). Lolth does in fact have Male clerics, both Drow (who cannot rise above 4th level in AD&D 1E) and Humans (Lareth the Beautiful, Master of the Moathouse ruins in T1: The Village of Hommlet) is 5th level, so presumably he could advance as far as Lolth could grant him new spells).
Oh wow! That sounds pretty cool. I mean, I’m still not a big fan of the drow being used to demonize matriarchy, but it sounds like an interesting alternative take on Lolth.
@6thLyranGuard so when you say retconned, you mean they completely invalidated everything he said above? Couldn’t Lolth have two different incarnations, one in Greyhawk and one in the Forgotten Realms? Sorry, I’m just confused.
Basically. The portrayal of Lolth and the drow in the Forgotten Realms was popular enough that TSR went ahead and retconned the Greyhawk versions of both to be closer to the FR and threw out the things like Lolth having male clerics (and human clerics) and the drow being a race that was evil-inclined but still someone that you could potentially have peaceful dealings with if you were smart.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Basically. The portrayal of Lolth and the drow in the Forgotten Realms was popular enough that TSR went ahead and retconned the Greyhawk versions of both to be closer to the FR and threw out the things like Lolth having male clerics (and human clerics) and the drow being a race that was evil-inclined but still someone that you could potentially have peaceful dealings with if you were smart.
Okay. Thanks for clarifying that. Though I’d prefer the drow to be a little less one dimensional as far as just being a purely evil culture. Also, the idea of Lolth having male and non-drow clerics is kinda cool.
Maybe I should check out the new elven lore section in MToF?
@PenelopeWeaver: Some deities are multispheric (meaning they exist in more than one setting), while others are unique to that setting. Lolth is an example of the former, and her lore varies a bit. This is discussed in Faiths & Pantheons. She is largely the same deity, but the worlds have different histories, but yes, in this case, we were mainly discussing her in terms of Forgotten Realms, as that has become the most prominent setting we see her in these days.
@PenelopeWeaver: Some deities are multispheric (meaning they exist in more than one setting), while others are unique to that setting. Lolth is an example of the former, and her lore varies a bit. This is discussed in Faiths & Pantheons. She is largely the same deity, but the worlds have different histories, but yes, in this case, we were mainly discussing her in terms of Forgotten Realms, as that has become the most prominent setting we see her in these days.
Okay. Thank you.
So it’s the same deity, but she exists in two different worlds (Greyhawk and Faerun).
Basically. The portrayal of Lolth and the drow in the Forgotten Realms was popular enough that TSR went ahead and retconned the Greyhawk versions of both to be closer to the FR and threw out the things like Lolth having male clerics (and human clerics) and the drow being a race that was evil-inclined but still someone that you could potentially have peaceful dealings with if you were smart.
Okay. Thanks for clarifying that. Though I’d prefer the drow to be a little less one dimensional as far as just being a purely evil culture. Also, the idea of Lolth having male and non-drow clerics is kinda cool.
Maybe I should check out the new elven lore section in MToF?
Just a note that MToF changed A LOT of elven and drow lore (imho, it screwed over the drow, as it essentially portrayed them as soulless by not even giving them a defined afterlife like the others get). I'm honestly not sure what they were going for with that book. I would not look to it for canonical lore.
In Forgotten Realms, you have Eilistraee, who is a benevolent drow deity, and Vhaeraun, who, while technically "evil", is still a better option than Lolth. But the drow (in FR) haven't been purely evil for a long time, though in 4e, WotC did try and make them that way by pushing out Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. They've thankfully returned them in 5e.
Basically. The portrayal of Lolth and the drow in the Forgotten Realms was popular enough that TSR went ahead and retconned the Greyhawk versions of both to be closer to the FR and threw out the things like Lolth having male clerics (and human clerics) and the drow being a race that was evil-inclined but still someone that you could potentially have peaceful dealings with if you were smart.
Okay. Thanks for clarifying that. Though I’d prefer the drow to be a little less one dimensional as far as just being a purely evil culture. Also, the idea of Lolth having male and non-drow clerics is kinda cool.
Maybe I should check out the new elven lore section in MToF?
Just a note that MToF changed A LOT of elven and drow lore (imho, it screwed over the drow, as it essentially portrayed them as soulless by not even giving them a defined afterlife like the others get). I'm honestly not sure what they were going for with that book. I would not look to it for canonical lore.
In Forgotten Realms, you have Eilistraee, who is a benevolent drow deity, and Vhaeraun, who, while technically "evil", is still a better option than Lolth. But the drow (in FR) haven't been purely evil for a long time, though in 4e, WotC did try and make them that way by pushing out Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. They've thankfully returned them in 5e.
That’s great 😊. I love both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, at least from what I know of them. Thanks.
I just picked up Faiths and Pantheons for FR 3e, so imma read that and get back to this thread. Is that the most recent book on FR deities or is there one for 5e too?
I talked to my friend. She said that’s exactly why the drow are misogynistic, because they portray gynocracy (rule by girls) in the worst possible light.
I'm sure your friend knows best then.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
She adds nuance to the drow pantheon, and shows that there have always been goodly drow. I did find the males only allowed to be lay followers a bit weird, but that did change, though I don’t remember when (they did have Elkantar, a high priest, in AD&D, but I don’t know if he was an exception or not). However, unlike you with Selune and Mystra, Bob doesn’t give the drow any alternatives. He doesn’t like Eilistraee because she is a goddess, is my impression, and feels that the drow would somehow become good only because they were “coerced” into following her, which, like her or not, is not in her nature to do. Unlike Lolth, she does not force.
I liked Tos’un too. I wish his story had ended differently. There have also been goodly orcs since 2e: the Ondthi, followers of Eldath. But they have been virtually ignored for a long time by WotC. I myself only learned of them recently. Maybe, with this new direction WotC is taken, we’ll see them featured again.
It’s interesting you say Mielikki’s decree was Bob giving WotC the middle finger for their decision concerning Obould, which could very well be true, but I took it as him giving a middle finger to the FR deities. He doesn’t like Eilistraee, fine, but I get the impression (based on a recent interview I saw with him), that he, consciously or not, is projecting his bad experiences with Catholicism into a shared world where the gods are very real, so it was basically him trying to shed a bad light on any faith, good deity or bad (notice how, despite the books featuring the Monastery of the Yellow Rose, Ilmater wasn’t even mentioned). I didn’t see this decree of Mielikki’s shown anywhere else (correct me if I am wrong). While Mielikki may have no love for orcs, she wouldn’t condone just killing them every which way, which is what Catti-brie implied, iirc. Which, could just be Catti-bire being a zealot and using Mielikki’s name to justify her views, but, while zealotry and twisting of a doctrine certainly happens in Faerun, regardless of whether the deity itself is good or evil, this seemed like a way of saying that all religion leads to corruption, because, rather than having Drizzt say “Mielikki wouldn’t condone that”, he had Drizzt renounce Mieliiki. To me, the “because Mielikki says so” stance of Catti-brie again feels like projection, because it brings Mielikki to the level of Lolth, an evil goddess who forces her followers into submission. Believe it or not, most deities do allow free will and thinking. So again, it just feels like Bob is projecting some real world bitterness.
Maybe it was indeed his way of giving WotC the finger, but he used a goodly goddess to do it, and to make Drizzt, as you said, abandon her. This is somewhat ironic, as Drizzt has always said that Mielikki is what is in his heart—which is often (except in cases such as Lolth), why Faerunians, while most are polytheistic, end up leaning towards one deity above the others, based on ethics, values, and morals. Then suddenly, according to Catti-brie, Mielikki says all orcs are evil and deserve to die. She said this in the 5e era, though before WotC’s diversity statement, so maybe it was another mandate by WotC (which is then on them for twisting Mielikki), or it was Bob giving WotC the finger, as you suggested, but again, my point above stands.
Bob did say in an interview he had been setting things up for several books, even before WotC decided to go the new route (making drow more diverse).
There could be something to giving the finger to all the Gods due to a bad experience. IIRC, Catti-Brie's comments were in The Companions, a 4e era book. 4e lore just breaks so so much stuff. That's part of why I've always felt that it was a subtle dig at WotC though is they forced him to directly undo a lot of the things he did previously when it came to 4e, and for mostly no /good/ reason. Not wanting to write about the gods in general makes a lot of sense. Now that I come to think of it, none of the other FR stuff that he's done has had much from any of the gods either. The Cleric Quintet/Cadderly stuff perhaps? That all got dropped like a hot potato too, but I think 4e shanked Denier as well. I could see an author wanting to not want to write about gods and minimizing them in his books.
My personal dislike of Eilistraee goes all the way back to 2e. She's just never sat right with me. While yes, she diversifies the drow pantheon, she's always struck me as kind of cringey. Vhaeraun doesn't bother me, he's kind of cool. I kind of like Kiaransalee too. Selvatarm I like and feel a bit bad for, he pretty much gets dumped on. He's the one I am hoping comes out of this in much better shape. Zinzerena I like the concept of, but haven't seen much on her. Ghaunadaur is just kind of lame. Eilistraee though...I've just always been annoyed by. I can't put my finger on it, because I /should/ like her. I think that Ed Greenwood just wrote her in a very cringey manner and I've never gotten past that initial bias. First males couldn't become priests at all. Then, he was like FINE, you can be a male priest, but you have to spend time shape changed into a female first. Then he removed that too. And everything is dance around naked. Eilistraee in my eyes is just over sexualized in a way that just makes me roll my eyes. I've seen a lot of complaints about Lolthian drow being over-sexualized and misogynistic but at least Lolth is up front and honest about it. Eilistraee is just kind of packaged as too obvious of an answer for good drow for me to personally get behind and historically she's crapped on males even more than Lolth, while pretending to be nice. I could probably be on board with /her church/ being messed up, but there's still the whole she's an easy answer and that's just not compelling to me.
Lolth on the other hand, I've always really liked. She's just messed up and provides me lots of entertainment. She's like a classic supervillian who has all these grandiose plans that just always FAIL. I mean seriously, what has Lolth/Araushnee /not/ screwed up. She lets you get away with some weird concepts, because she loves chaos and...she might get behind this character concept because it makes her laugh and that's reason enough.
Bob's always been a bit of a step ahead, he tried to diversify the orcs at the end of 3e with many arrows. I still don't think that he /planned/ to diversify the drow as that's a bit of a big step for him to choose without WotC buy-in (especially after the travesty of 4e's lore changes), but I'll certainly give him credit for having the tools in place to do so. I do remember an interview with him where after WotC dropped their plans for I think it was 4e, he and Ed looked at each other and were like...what do we do? I'd not be surprised if this is a result of whatever contingency plan they cooked up way back in the day. Bob ignoring Eilistraee, might be down to something as simple as considering her to be Ed's and not being willing to "get her wrong". I'm more than OK with her not being a part of the conversation in his novels though whatever happens. Let the drow who want to head her way do so, let them go another way if that's what they choose.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I'm not saying every book has to (or should) be god-centered, but Bob seems to crap on all of them, whether they're benevolent (Mielikki), or evil (Lolth). He's writing in a world where the deities are very much a part of the setting, so it's hard to completely ignore them. He can minimize their appearance in his books if he wants, but the way he handles religion as a whole really feels like he is projecting real world bitterness. I myself am not overly religious and don't associate with any "organized" rw religion, but I don't shy away from the concept in Forgotten Realms. The gods are part of the setting, and while there are certainly individual deities I dislike, I wouldn't give the finger to all of them just because I had a bad real world experience, or didn't like some of them. The Companions was sort of both a 4e and 5e book. It was part of the Sundering series, which was the transition series from one edition to the other. Maybe it was a mandate from WotC (I fully agree 4e screwed up so much), but it also felt like projection, and, quite frankly, a misunderstanding of Mielikki. While Mielikki may hate orcs and goblins because they destroy forests, she does not condone genocide, which is why Catti-brie was advocating. The whole thing really just felt like projection.
I remember the interview where he talked about his conversation with Greenwood after 4e was announced: "We have to fix this". Several years later, James Wyatt pulled him aside and said they needed to fix this, lol. Even though Eilistraee may be Ed's creation, it's a shared world. Elaine wrote about her several times. With perhaps the exception of some signature characters, the authors shared each other's creations all the time (they were all writing in a world Ed created, after all). Even if Bob doesn't like Eilistraee, wanting to diversify the drow but essentially present Lolth as the only drow deity doesn't really help with that image, imho. He could even have shown Vhaeraunites (though he was still technically "evil").
A lot of damage was done to Eilistraee by the war of the Spiderqueen series too. Smedman in particular crapped all over her. I think his older works and opinions on Mielikki get the spirit of the goddess correct. I also feel that's why Catti-brie's projection felt forced. It wasn't necessary; if he didn't want to write Mielikki as part of the story any more, no blood no foul he could have just stopped. She (Mielikki) was never /central/ to the stories, just something of an explanation (and one I enjoyed). That's why I feel that it was more of a shot at WotC for being stupid than it was projection of religious hate. If I ever got to sit down with him and have a cup of coffee, that's certainly something I'd ask, because the Mielikki blow off has always annoyed me. I'd really like to know the truth of why he did it, even if I couldn't ever tell anyone.
The fact that Bob doesn't turn to the gods to solve all problems is actually something I like. The fact that he repeatedly turns to Jarlaxle and Kimmuriel instead...that bugs me. I hate Kimmuriel with such a passion. I by far prefer more hands off deities (and I think Ed hits the Mystra/Seven Sisters ride in on their white horses to save the day far far too much as well).
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I can agree with that. I enjoyed the War of the Spider Queen series, but they and Lady Penitent did paint an inaccurate portrayal of Eilistraee (imho, Elaine was best in her depiction of Eilistraee and her followers). My impression of Bob in regards to his religious bitterness stemmed from the fact that he often seemed to paint those of faith as ignorant and somehow silly (with the exception of perhaps Cadderly and a few others), or outright zealot (like Catti-brie or the Lolthite priestesses), and that that those who rejected it (Drizzt), as "right". Even though it is of course just the character's opinion, Drizzt is used to show the "moral high ground", and authors often (though not always, of course) use at least one main character to show that, which makes Drizzt come off as "right". He also only really shows the evil deity appearing (Lolth), and doesn't present the benevolent alternative (Eilsitraee, or even Vhaeraun). You don't have to like Eilistraee, but when you only present the corruption of religion (Lolth, Mielikki's supposed decree), it presents a very skewed image. I could give more examples, but I'll stop there lol. I of course could be entirely wrong (if you ever sit down with him, let me know lol).
Also, this impression was heightened by recent interviews I saw with him, which is why I really feel like he is projecting. I agree that Mielikki's 180 felt very random and forced, and it could have easily just been Bob giving WotC the middle finger, as you said, but it also could have been projection. I don't care what Bob's real world religious views (or non-views) are. I would just prefer he didn't project that bitterness--if that is indeed what it is--into a world where there are numerous gods, good and bad, and keeping them in the background is different than crapping over all of them just because he has some anger towards his experiences with real world religion.
I'm not saying Bob should have a literal deus ex machina lol. I do enjoy godly involvement sometimes (I did like the drowic pantheon making appearances in War of the Spider Queen and Lady Penitent, and the Avatar series was fun. I also enjoyed the beginning of Evermeet). I agree that a god coming in to sit down for tea is a bit much, but I think an avatar, or, more indirectly, signs and visions, or a voice, can heighten a story. They don't have to be central to the story, but again, this is a world where the gods are very real, with almost everyone worshiping one (usually multiple) deities, and if Bob prefers to keep their involvement minimal, okay, but this goes back to my point that he's only showing the corrupted drow as the ones who follow a faith, and those who reject it as "enlightened". This presents the skewed image I mentioned above, and denies that there are goodly deities for drow (Eilistraee, and to an extent, Vhaeraun). It doesn't have to mean Eilistraee or Vhaeraun themselves make an actual appearance, but their followers were also pretty much ignored. It also kind of ignores the fact that there have always been goodly drow, even if Bob himself says there always have been (and would help show that not all drow are fated to end up in the Abyss/Demonweb Pits lol).
I think the thing with the drow is, that so much of their actual evil is tied to their faith. Eilistraee is an un-necessary distraction to the story being told. I was actually /afraid/ that WotC was going to reach for the easy button and point at Eilistraee, wipe their hands and call it good. What it /appears/ he is doing just so much better. To me, it appears he's breaking the faith between the drow and Lolth (at least in Menzoberranzan or some of the houses) and giving the drow a /choice/.
That's way more compelling than just jumping ship to a new goddess.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Agree to disagree then. With Lolth, yes, much of their evil is tied to their faith, but like I said, faith (in general), was shown as corrupting, whether it was Lolth or Mielikki. That's why I said it presents a skewed image of gods in the Realms (whether they play a minimal or central role). I don't see Eilistraee as unnecessary, and I actually sincerely hope WotC stops ignoring her and Vhaeraun, and shows that the drow aren't only bound to an evil goddess. I don't see it as jumping ship, I see it as Eilistraee doing what she's always done; offering a better path for the drow. Yes, the drow deserve choice, but Eilistraee can be part of that choice (at least present it as an option, rather than completely throwing her away like they did in 4e). WotC can find at least some of their answers in lore that is already there (Eilistraee, the Ondthi), and then expand from there.
Just to toss a dash of cold water on this, I would point out that the lore here is only for her (later) Forgotten Realms incarnation. She was originally a Greyhawk villainous demon and her backstory is a bit different. For one thing, she has a connection to The Elder Elemental God (and no, despite WotC claiming otherwise, he's neither Tharizdun nor an aspect of Tharizdun). Lolth's connection to the EEG, of course, is partly that of a rival, since she was involved in The Temple of Elemental Evil along with Iuz the Old and Zuggtmoy, Lady of Fungi. The Elemental Nodes in The Temple of Elemental Evil match EXACTLY the "keys" found inside the platinum egg used in part of her Demon Web.
Several powerful Drow houses switched allegiance to worship the Elder Elemental God. It was they, through the Evil High Priestess Eclavdra, who organized the giants to raid into The Grand Duchy of Geoff (G1-3 Against the Giants) as well as helped The Scarlet Brotherhood and others with forming The Slavers in Pomarj (through the female Drow Fighter/Cleric Edralve). Lolth does in fact have Male clerics, both Drow (who cannot rise above 4th level in AD&D 1E) and Humans (Lareth the Beautiful, Master of the Moathouse ruins in T1: The Village of Hommlet) is 5th level, so presumably he could advance as far as Lolth could grant him new spells).
I don't think that Bob's portrayal of the gods in his later FR novels is because he's trying to give a Take That at WotC. If you look at his non-D&D books, he tends to dump on religion just as heavily. I'd say he really just hates religion and starting in the late 90s or early 00s he became less subtle about it than Garth Ennis.
Regarding Lolth's portrayal in Greyhawk, yeah, that's no longer canon. She's since been retconned to be a lot closer to her FR incarnation, though she's ranked as an Intermediate deity rather than a Greater one.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Oh wow! That sounds pretty cool. I mean, I’m still not a big fan of the drow being used to demonize matriarchy, but it sounds like an interesting alternative take on Lolth.
@6thLyranGuard so when you say retconned, you mean they completely invalidated everything he said above? Couldn’t Lolth have two different incarnations, one in Greyhawk and one in the Forgotten Realms? Sorry, I’m just confused.
Basically. The portrayal of Lolth and the drow in the Forgotten Realms was popular enough that TSR went ahead and retconned the Greyhawk versions of both to be closer to the FR and threw out the things like Lolth having male clerics (and human clerics) and the drow being a race that was evil-inclined but still someone that you could potentially have peaceful dealings with if you were smart.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
@6thLyranGuard
They can claim whatever they like, doesn't change the fact that she has very different story in Greyhawk. She's a creation of Gygax, not Greenwood.
Had. Emphasis on past tense. The lore has changed over the years just like the rules have.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Okay. Thanks for clarifying that. Though I’d prefer the drow to be a little less one dimensional as far as just being a purely evil culture. Also, the idea of Lolth having male and non-drow clerics is kinda cool.
Maybe I should check out the new elven lore section in MToF?
@PenelopeWeaver: Some deities are multispheric (meaning they exist in more than one setting), while others are unique to that setting. Lolth is an example of the former, and her lore varies a bit. This is discussed in Faiths & Pantheons. She is largely the same deity, but the worlds have different histories, but yes, in this case, we were mainly discussing her in terms of Forgotten Realms, as that has become the most prominent setting we see her in these days.
Okay. Thank you.
So it’s the same deity, but she exists in two different worlds (Greyhawk and Faerun).
Just a note that MToF changed A LOT of elven and drow lore (imho, it screwed over the drow, as it essentially portrayed them as soulless by not even giving them a defined afterlife like the others get). I'm honestly not sure what they were going for with that book. I would not look to it for canonical lore.
In Forgotten Realms, you have Eilistraee, who is a benevolent drow deity, and Vhaeraun, who, while technically "evil", is still a better option than Lolth. But the drow (in FR) haven't been purely evil for a long time, though in 4e, WotC did try and make them that way by pushing out Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. They've thankfully returned them in 5e.
That’s great 😊. I love both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, at least from what I know of them. Thanks.
I just picked up Faiths and Pantheons for FR 3e, so imma read that and get back to this thread. Is that the most recent book on FR deities or is there one for 5e too?