By level 1 one attack already gets a bonus to damage equal to proficiency once(of genies type), by 7 you get multi attack, and by 12 you have charisma damage added on to attacks as necrotic.
The rest is resistance, flight, short rest acceleration + extra healing, and a free level 6th spell effect at 14.
By level 1 one attack already gets a bonus to damage equal to proficiency once(of genies type), by 7 you get multi attack, and by 12 you have charisma damage added on to attacks as necrotic.
The rest is resistance, flight, short rest acceleration + extra healing, and a free level 6th spell effect at 14.
Pact of the Blade is terrible unless you're a Hexblade to make it stop being terrible. Hexblade + Pact of the Blade is good, Genie + Pact of the Tome is good.
Pact of the Blade is not terrible if you're not a Hexblade. All Hexblade offers is the ability to use Charisma for the attack and damage rolls instead of strength or dexterity - medium armour - and martial weapon proficiencies.
If you're taking Pact of the Blade then you will already be getting proficiency with whatever weapon you decide to summon - so the weapon proficiencies will be superfluous. You can absolutely build any Warlock to have decent Dexterity as well as Charisma. With light armour the AC will be as high as medium armour would be and damage with a finesse weapon will be great.
Hexblade is absolutely not required for weapon-based Warlocks to be viable.
Furthermore, the Pact of the Genie bonuses aren't tied to an ability score modifier, but rather to proficiency bonus (vessel AC is the only thing tied to casting modifier, and why would anything attack your ring???). If you were ever going to try to build a low-CHA Strength or Dexterity based warlock that doesn't rely on Eldritch Blast, I think Genie would be an excellent subclass to base that on. You can splash Genie 3 on top of a conventional martial character, and walk away with pure profit!
A Dex-based genie/rogue Pact of the Blade would be a good avenue to picking up two attacks/Attack action, without multiclassing anywhere else.
Pact of the Blade is not terrible if you're not a Hexblade. All Hexblade offers is the ability to use Charisma for the attack and damage rolls instead of strength or dexterity - medium armour - and martial weapon proficiencies.
If you're taking Pact of the Blade then you will already be getting proficiency with whatever weapon you decide to summon - so the weapon proficiencies will be superfluous. You can absolutely build any Warlock to have decent Dexterity as well as Charisma. With light armour the AC will be as high as medium armour would be and damage with a finesse weapon will be great.
Hexblade is absolutely not required for weapon-based Warlocks to be viable.
That's not really true. Try making one at... I don't know, let's pick a level. Say 8? 8 is convenient for emphasizing the challenges of being MAD.
This is an L8 Hexlock, approximately:
Charisma 20, with a +1 Cha feat (Fey Touched is a popular choice, not the only one)
Loadout has drastic amounts of flexibility, so remember Greatsword, Halberd, Shield+Longsword, Shield+Whip, Shield+Spear, etc are all on the table. All are at +8 to hit, +5 damage.
Constitution 16 (67 Hit Points, +3 to Constitution Saves, with high probability has the invocation Eldritch Mind)
Dexterity 14, wearing Half Plate (AC 17/19 with Shield, +2 Initiative, +2 to Dex Saves)
Wisdom 10 (Perception +3, probably; +3 to Wisdom Saves)
Intelligence 8
Strength 8
Make your own non-Hexblade Warlock (don't forget the Curse and Specter!), and compare it both offensively and defensively to the above. Its deficits will be significant. I'm shying away from even weirder corner cases, like how a Tortle doing this can dump Dexterity all the way down to 8 just fine. I also didn't bother delving into bonus spells, but that matters for any Patron choice, naturally, and the Hexblade's bonus spells matter, too.
At level 8, a melee-focused Genie probably has 18 Dex, 14 Con, and 18 Charisma (after having taken a +1 Cha feat, and a +2 Dex ASI).
AC 17 in Mage Armor, wielding a 1d8 rapier
No shield option, still a 1d8 rapier.
Attacks for +7 to hit, twice per Attack action with Thirsting Blade
does 1d8+4 damage before Hex, +3 damage on one hit
Spells are +7 to hit, DC 15
I'm not going to sit here and argue that the Hexblade isn't more specialized for melee than the Genie is: it is, Genie's can be very rich ranged warlocks, while hexblades are wasting features out of melee. But it is not a "significant" difference... and even less of one with multiclassing factored in, so that the Hexblade doesn't have Medium Armor and Shield options that the Genie doesn't. With that equalized, you're literally just left with the Hexblade having once/long rest proficiency bonus damage added to all attacks vs. one opponent, vs. the genie getting to do that on one hit per turn all day long against every opponent. Hexblades get to 20 Charisma quick and tidy, but if we're talking melee warlocks that are more interested in attacking than spellcasting (or, casting spells to buff their own attacks), then a Genie getting to 20 Dex or 20 Strength by 8 isn't really any worse off.
There's not no difference. But I'd rather build a Rogue/Genie or a Fighter/Genie than a Rogue/Hex or Fighter/Hex. Both subclasses add bonus damage, but Genie does so more often, and has richer subclass features.
I am playing a strength based character for the first time in a very long time, he is a Padlock 5/1. I have chosen Oath of the Open Sea, and the Fathomless as his Patron. Yes that is not optimised, but it is thematic and immensely fun to play. I am playing him as a sort of FR version of one of the Knights of the Round Table, chivalric and questing, instead of some sea monster I have chosen the Lady of the Lake to be his patron, and the character has been one of the most fun I have ever played. When it comes to picking a pact though, I don't think I will be losing out much by not being a Hexblade as I already have a 20 strength and heavy armour, shields and martial weapons.
By level 1 one attack already gets a bonus to damage equal to proficiency once(of genies type), by 7 you get multi attack, and by 12 you have charisma damage added on to attacks as necrotic.
The rest is resistance, flight, short rest acceleration + extra healing, and a free level 6th spell effect at 14.
Pact of the Blade is terrible unless you're a Hexblade to make it stop being terrible. Hexblade + Pact of the Blade is good, Genie + Pact of the Tome is good.
This is completely wrong. Pact of the Blade is fine with a melee build. Hexblade is just the lazy way out.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Pact of the Blade is not terrible if you're not a Hexblade. All Hexblade offers is the ability to use Charisma for the attack and damage rolls instead of strength or dexterity - medium armour - and martial weapon proficiencies.
If you're taking Pact of the Blade then you will already be getting proficiency with whatever weapon you decide to summon - so the weapon proficiencies will be superfluous. You can absolutely build any Warlock to have decent Dexterity as well as Charisma. With light armour the AC will be as high as medium armour would be and damage with a finesse weapon will be great.
Hexblade is absolutely not required for weapon-based Warlocks to be viable.
That's not really true. Try making one at... I don't know, let's pick a level. Say 8? 8 is convenient for emphasizing the challenges of being MAD.
This is an L8 Hexlock, approximately:
Charisma 20, with a +1 Cha feat (Fey Touched is a popular choice, not the only one)
Loadout has drastic amounts of flexibility, so remember Greatsword, Halberd, Shield+Longsword, Shield+Whip, Shield+Spear, etc are all on the table. All are at +8 to hit, +5 damage.
Constitution 16 (67 Hit Points, +3 to Constitution Saves, with high probability has the invocation Eldritch Mind)
Dexterity 14, wearing Half Plate (AC 17/19 with Shield, +2 Initiative, +2 to Dex Saves)
Wisdom 10 (Perception +3, probably; +3 to Wisdom Saves)
Intelligence 8
Strength 8
Make your own non-Hexblade Warlock (don't forget the Curse and Specter!), and compare it both offensively and defensively to the above. Its deficits will be significant. I'm shying away from even weirder corner cases, like how a Tortle doing this can dump Dexterity all the way down to 8 just fine. I also didn't bother delving into bonus spells, but that matters for any Patron choice, naturally, and the Hexblade's bonus spells matter, too.
Bladelocks do not require max cha. You are playing as a melee or a bow archer, not as a caster. You choose spells that do not care about your charisma score, mostly, out of combat utility. In combat, you're going to be eldritch smiting with your spell slots or using Armor of Agathys as a damage shield. Neither care about your charisma.
Is Hexblade strictly better? Yes. That doesn't make other options terrible; it means the lazy power creepy option that never should have been added is power creepy.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Furthermore, the Pact of the Genie bonuses aren't tied to an ability score modifier, but rather to proficiency bonus (vessel AC is the only thing tied to casting modifier, and why would anything attack your ring???). If you were ever going to try to build a low-CHA Strength or Dexterity based warlock that doesn't rely on Eldritch Blast, I think Genie would be an excellent subclass to base that on. You can splash Genie 3 on top of a conventional martial character, and walk away with pure profit!
A Dex-based genie/rogue Pact of the Blade would be a good avenue to picking up two attacks/Attack action, without multiclassing anywhere else.
Do remember that invocations level requirements are class level and not character level. Thirsting Blade doesn't come online until warlock 5, meaning the 3 level dip wouldn't get it without DM fiat. Not a big deal for the Fighter X version, but the Rogue X variation wouldn't get extra attack. For either build, getting warlock 5 also means Eldritch Smite, which isn't a bad option.
Moving on from the quoted section to the conversation in general with a segue, lifedrinker for the charisma based necrotic damage is warlock 12. Hexblades have an advantage here (for 4 levels) because it's difficult to max 2 stats before level 16 but pretty easy to max 1 by level 12. Of course, that advantage isn't realized in every campaign since quite a few don't reach 12. For those that do, it's likely the difference of 1 or 2 damage per attack.
Pact of the Blade lets you choose the style of weapon that you summon and gives you proficiency with your pact weapon, meaning there is no differentiation there between hexblades and other patrons who choose pact of the Blade due to the weapon proficiencies that hexblade offers. This means that martial weapon proficiency is only a benefit for non pact of the blade warlocks or for levels 1 and 2. It should also be noted that benefit is only 1 average damage for d10 versatile weapons since hex warrior doesn't apply to weapons with the Two-handed property without pact of the blade.
To be fair, hexblades are the premier melee Warlocks since they do offer the best specialization options and do open up more customization options by not forcing pact of the Blade to be an offensively oriented melee warlock that's at least somewhat effective. However, the difference between a hexblade pact of the Blade and another patron pact of the Blade isn't so significant that you can't make it work and still be quite effective. You simply want to know what you are giving up for one and gaining from the other, while knowing how far your campaign is going.
Warlocks get subclass benefits at 1, 6, 10, & 14. If you are only playing LMoP, level 1 is all that matters. Curse of Strahd... levels 1 & 6 with a little bit of 10. Most of the time level 14 won't matter, but the campaigns that will go that far will probably want to take a look. Then they have to determine if getting the later level stuff is worth sticking with the early level stuff. If you aren't stressed about optimization, grabbing other patrons for the flavor can be very thematic and fit your character well.
For multiclass builds, do remember that your warlock abilities often scale with warlock levels. Fiendlock get temp HP when they reduce a hostile creature to 0 HP, which can help a melee character to whether more hits. However the Temp HPs are equal to your charisma modifier plus you warlock level. If you've taken a 1 level dip and left your charisma at the 13 or 14 that you used to MC, then it's only 2-3 temp HPs, which will act much more like HAM's -3 damage clause. Is that worth choosing instead of hexblade for your Paladin MC that would love to focus on charisma for auras, damage and spellcasting? What about your Barbarian that doesn't give a rip about charisma but loves tasty HP bonuses (2-3 HP is like 4-6 with resistance in play)?
Edit: formatting and I remembered that Eldritch Smite only cares about Pact Magic Slots, not spell slots in general.
At level 8, a melee-focused Genie probably has 18 Dex, 14 Con, and 18 Charisma (after having taken a +1 Cha feat, and a +2 Dex ASI).
AC 17 in Mage Armor, wielding a 1d8 rapier
No shield option, still a 1d8 rapier.
Attacks for +7 to hit, twice per Attack action with Thirsting Blade
does 1d8+4 damage before Hex, +3 damage on one hit
Spells are +7 to hit, DC 15
I'm not going to sit here and argue that the Hexblade isn't more specialized for melee than the Genie is: it is, Genie's can be very rich ranged warlocks, while hexblades are wasting features out of melee. But it is not a "significant" difference... and even less of one with multiclassing factored in, so that the Hexblade doesn't have Medium Armor and Shield options that the Genie doesn't. With that equalized, you're literally just left with the Hexblade having once/long rest proficiency bonus damage added to all attacks vs. one opponent, vs. the genie getting to do that on one hit per turn all day long against every opponent. Hexblades get to 20 Charisma quick and tidy, but if we're talking melee warlocks that are more interested in attacking than spellcasting (or, casting spells to buff their own attacks), then a Genie getting to 20 Dex or 20 Strength by 8 isn't really any worse off.
There's not no difference. But I'd rather build a Rogue/Genie or a Fighter/Genie than a Rogue/Hex or Fighter/Hex. Both subclasses add bonus damage, but Genie does so more often, and has richer subclass features.
Some things you forgot to include:
HP
Hexblade will have 67 HP and the Genie has 59.
Also Improved Pact Weapon for Hexblade makes it a 1d8+6 (or 2d6+6) with a +9 to hit.
so +2 to hit, +2 damage which is significant.
Now you could say the same for the Genie as it could pick up Improved Pact weapon as well but it will need to take the Mage Armor invocation and since Pact of Blade is so invocation thirsty they will fall behind most of the time as they will always need to have that invocation slot filled.
Hexblade can then just start picking up the extra damage invocations (Eldtrich Smite, Maddening Hex, etc...)
Now I agree that Pact of Blade can work on a non-hexblade but it is sure of a lot easier for hexblade by a LONG shot.
Just to be fair is all....
Hexblade at 12 ASI can pick up Inspiring Leader and add 17 HP to themselves and 6 others.
Genie will likely want to increase DEX to 20, in which case they are falling behind in the useful feats as well.
Overall Hexblade just gets the edge 9/10 times. But I do disagree that non-hexblade blades are "terrible"
There is nothing in Hexblade that grants bonus hit points, and both Hexblade patron and Genie patron warlocks have 1d8+con for hitpoints.
Improved pact weapon is a Pact of the Blade invocation, the patron makes no difference so a genie patron could take it as well as a hexblade patron warlock. There is no difference here either.
Likewise Eldritch Smite and Maddening Hex are also open to any Blade pact warlock with the hex spell as a spell known - again no difference.
Mage armour only provides a +1 bonus to AC over studded leather, it's not mandatory - just a bit nice, and you will lose other bonuses from wearing physical armour such as gleaming, resistant etc. Once you get magical armour it is irrelevant. Not to mention if you multiclass with a class that grants med/hvy armour and or shield.
There is nothing here in your arguement that shows a Hexblade Pact of the Blade to be significantly better, especially when you add in the bonus abilities and spells that the genie gets. Sure it is easier and simpler to go Hexblade, but it is also cliched and a tad boring.
There is nothing in Hexblade that grants bonus hit points, and both Hexblade patron and Genie patron warlocks have 1d8+con for hitpoints.
Improved pact weapon is a Pact of the Blade invocation, the patron makes no difference so a genie patron could take it as well as a hexblade patron warlock. There is no difference here either.
Likewise Eldritch Smite and Maddening Hex are also open to any Blade pact warlock with the hex spell as a spell known - again no difference.
Mage armour only provides a +1 bonus to AC over studded leather, it's not mandatory - just a bit nice, and you will lose other bonuses from wearing physical armour such as gleaming, resistant etc. Once you get magical armour it is irrelevant. Not to mention if you multiclass with a class that grants med/hvy armour and or shield.
There is nothing here in your arguement that shows a Hexblade Pact of the Blade to be significantly better, especially when you add in the bonus abilities and spells that the genie gets. Sure it is easier and simpler to go Hexblade, but it is also cliched and a tad boring.
Please read the builds. One has a 16 Con (hexblade) and the other has a 14 Con (Genie). Reason for this is the hexblade can stop at Dex14 thanks to medium armor and can instead pump constitution. So naturally the hexblade will be able to invest more into CON.
Improved Pact on both yes and I mentioned that... However the Genie has to always use 1 invocation for Mage Armor and therefore will have one less for stuff like Maddening and what not. Yes they are available but the invocation tax for genie is higher.
Agree with Mage Armor but then you will be +3 AC behind hexblade which is very significant. Also hexblade gets shield spell as well on their bonus spell list.
There is nothing in Hexblade that grants bonus hit points, and both Hexblade patron and Genie patron warlocks have 1d8+con for hitpoints.
Improved pact weapon is a Pact of the Blade invocation, the patron makes no difference so a genie patron could take it as well as a hexblade patron warlock. There is no difference here either.
Likewise Eldritch Smite and Maddening Hex are also open to any Blade pact warlock with the hex spell as a spell known - again no difference.
Mage armour only provides a +1 bonus to AC over studded leather, it's not mandatory - just a bit nice, and you will lose other bonuses from wearing physical armour such as gleaming, resistant etc. Once you get magical armour it is irrelevant. Not to mention if you multiclass with a class that grants med/hvy armour and or shield.
There is nothing here in your arguement that shows a Hexblade Pact of the Blade to be significantly better, especially when you add in the bonus abilities and spells that the genie gets. Sure it is easier and simpler to go Hexblade, but it is also cliched and a tad boring.
Please read the builds. One has a 16 Con (hexblade) and the other has a 14 Con (Genie). Reason for this is the hexblade can stop at Dex14 thanks to medium armor and can instead pump constitution. So naturally the hexblade will be able to invest more into CON.
Improved Pact on both yes and I mentioned that... However the Genie has to always use 1 invocation for Mage Armor and therefore will have one less for stuff like Maddening and what not. Yes they are available but the invocation tax for genie is higher.
Agree with Mage Armor but then you will be +3 AC behind hexblade which is very significant. Also hexblade gets shield spell as well on their bonus spell list.
So yeah I do think hexblade had it easier
Well of course one will be better than another if it has better stats. That shouldn't even be part of a discussion on which patron is better though. Especially when you have such a massive variation in stat generation methods. In my games we roll for stats and at lvl 6 my 5/1 Paladin (Open Sea) / Warlock (Fathomless) has a 20 strength, an 18 constitution and a 16 charisma. He won't be taking the mage armour invocation, but will be taking Pact of the Blade when I get to that level. Is it the most optimal build? No, but in last night's game session I was able to nova against an aboleth and did 60 damage in the first round of the combat. Not to mention how super cool it was to have my character dive into the water and go head to head with it. Flavour can and does win out sometimes.
But at the end of the day we are both saying the same thing, based purely on class features and not stat rolls, Hexblade Pact of the Blade is better than any other patron, but in most cases not not significantly better to the point that you are gimping yourself by taking something else. Genie gives you a free fly speed a number of times equal to proficiency at level 6 which means you don't need to take the fly spell for example.
At level 8, a melee-focused Genie probably has 18 Dex, 14 Con, and 18 Charisma (after having taken a +1 Cha feat, and a +2 Dex ASI).
AC 17 in Mage Armor, wielding a 1d8 rapier
No shield option, still a 1d8 rapier.
Attacks for +7 to hit, twice per Attack action with Thirsting Blade
does 1d8+4 damage before Hex, +3 damage on one hit
Spells are +7 to hit, DC 15
I'm not going to sit here and argue that the Hexblade isn't more specialized for melee than the Genie is: it is, Genie's can be very rich ranged warlocks, while hexblades are wasting features out of melee. But it is not a "significant" difference... and even less of one with multiclassing factored in, so that the Hexblade doesn't have Medium Armor and Shield options that the Genie doesn't. With that equalized, you're literally just left with the Hexblade having once/long rest proficiency bonus damage added to all attacks vs. one opponent, vs. the genie getting to do that on one hit per turn all day long against every opponent. Hexblades get to 20 Charisma quick and tidy, but if we're talking melee warlocks that are more interested in attacking than spellcasting (or, casting spells to buff their own attacks), then a Genie getting to 20 Dex or 20 Strength by 8 isn't really any worse off.
There's not no difference. But I'd rather build a Rogue/Genie or a Fighter/Genie than a Rogue/Hex or Fighter/Hex. Both subclasses add bonus damage, but Genie does so more often, and has richer subclass features.
Some things you forgot to include:
HP
Hexblade will have 67 HP and the Genie has 59.
Also Improved Pact Weapon for Hexblade makes it a 1d8+6 (or 2d6+6) with a +9 to hit.
so +2 to hit, +2 damage which is significant.
Now you could say the same for the Genie as it could pick up Improved Pact weapon as well but it will need to take the Mage Armor invocation and since Pact of Blade is so invocation thirsty they will fall behind most of the time as they will always need to have that invocation slot filled.
Hexblade can then just start picking up the extra damage invocations (Eldtrich Smite, Maddening Hex, etc...)
Now I agree that Pact of Blade can work on a non-hexblade but it is sure of a lot easier for hexblade by a LONG shot.
Just to be fair is all....
Hexblade at 12 ASI can pick up Inspiring Leader and add 17 HP to themselves and 6 others.
Genie will likely want to increase DEX to 20, in which case they are falling behind in the useful feats as well.
Overall Hexblade just gets the edge 9/10 times. But I do disagree that non-hexblade blades are "terrible"
Non hexblade Warlocks need to get Armor of Shadows about as much as rogues need to get Moderately Armored feat. Both rogue and warlock get light armor proficiency and maxing dexterity gets their AC up to 17 without magic armor or something else to boost it. Getting it to 18 with Armor of Shadows is nice, but not required. It can be used pre- level 5 to help out and then swapped to pact of the Blade specific invocations to improve damage.
I'm not seeing anything that gives the Hexblade more HP. They can regain HP if their cursed target dies, which would be equal to their warlock level + their charisma modifier. Assuming max charisma, that would be 13 HP but it would require that a creature was cursed, that it died, and that the warlock took damage. It's all very likely to happen, but not guaranteed. If the difference is coming because of build differences from hex warrior allowing the build to focus on charisma, there isn't a guarantee that those differences would be the same for every player.
The non hexblade can get Inspiring Leader at 12 as well, still have max dex, and still be giving 14 or 15 Temp HP. This is assuming that someone else in party hasn't taken the feat and that the party isn't utilizing a lot of temp HP options (Armor of Agathys, subclass options that rely on the presence of temp HP or that grant temp HP like Fiendlock, etc.). It can still be useful in those cases, but it's less impactful, and the timing can be very important. Chef feat can be used to "heal" with temp HP through the treats and the treats can bev distributed to be eaten after the Temp HP from inspiring Leader are depleted, whereas Armor of Agathys as a central part of a build means that the central part of the build isn't being used or the temp HP from Inspiring Leader aren't being fully utilized.
Again, these are useful points of data to consider and can be used to help sway the player one way or the other, but there are other factors that must also be considered outside of the white room build considerations.
So yes patron matters when it comes to stats and here is why:
A hexblade can keep dex at 14 forever and have max AC.
Any other warlock must max DEX to get their AC To 17....meaning they need to increase their DEX first most likely with the 4th and 8th ASI...which leaves CHA lacking if you pick this route.
If you pick the split route (i.e. CHA and DEX to 18) then you are looking at a -3 AC compared to hexblade along with a lower DC and attack bonus.
So the hexblade has the advantage as it just needs to increase CHA from level 1 to level 8.
This means they get:
Max AC bonus from level 1
Max DC available at level 8
Max attack bonus at level 8
More ASI at baseline to spend on CON so they will have higher HP totals.
So yes patron does matter for this as it clearly gives hexblade an advantage to not needing to touch Dex at all from level 1 on.
Does this mean the other patrons are unplayable for Pact of Blade? No...and it seems we do agree on that. I played a very good Celestial Tiefling Pact of Blade warlock and it felt awesome with the racial smite spells.
I am just saying that hexblade has a huge advantage and it is meaningful...but only if you really want to focus on the math and not the thematic nature of the game. For me it will depend on the group I am playing with and what the DM will throw at us. If we are looking at combat as a RP tool and less about deadly encounters I will likely feel more comfortable with my Celestial Tiefling Warlock....but if its a meat grinder I am going hexblade.
At level 8, a melee-focused Genie probably has 18 Dex, 14 Con, and 18 Charisma (after having taken a +1 Cha feat, and a +2 Dex ASI).
AC 17 in Mage Armor, wielding a 1d8 rapier
No shield option, still a 1d8 rapier.
Attacks for +7 to hit, twice per Attack action with Thirsting Blade
does 1d8+4 damage before Hex, +3 damage on one hit
Spells are +7 to hit, DC 15
I'm not going to sit here and argue that the Hexblade isn't more specialized for melee than the Genie is: it is, Genie's can be very rich ranged warlocks, while hexblades are wasting features out of melee. But it is not a "significant" difference... and even less of one with multiclassing factored in, so that the Hexblade doesn't have Medium Armor and Shield options that the Genie doesn't. With that equalized, you're literally just left with the Hexblade having once/long rest proficiency bonus damage added to all attacks vs. one opponent, vs. the genie getting to do that on one hit per turn all day long against every opponent. Hexblades get to 20 Charisma quick and tidy, but if we're talking melee warlocks that are more interested in attacking than spellcasting (or, casting spells to buff their own attacks), then a Genie getting to 20 Dex or 20 Strength by 8 isn't really any worse off.
There's not no difference. But I'd rather build a Rogue/Genie or a Fighter/Genie than a Rogue/Hex or Fighter/Hex. Both subclasses add bonus damage, but Genie does so more often, and has richer subclass features.
Some things you forgot to include:
HP
Hexblade will have 67 HP and the Genie has 59.
Also Improved Pact Weapon for Hexblade makes it a 1d8+6 (or 2d6+6) with a +9 to hit.
so +2 to hit, +2 damage which is significant.
Now you could say the same for the Genie as it could pick up Improved Pact weapon as well but it will need to take the Mage Armor invocation and since Pact of Blade is so invocation thirsty they will fall behind most of the time as they will always need to have that invocation slot filled.
Hexblade can then just start picking up the extra damage invocations (Eldtrich Smite, Maddening Hex, etc...)
Now I agree that Pact of Blade can work on a non-hexblade but it is sure of a lot easier for hexblade by a LONG shot.
Just to be fair is all....
Hexblade at 12 ASI can pick up Inspiring Leader and add 17 HP to themselves and 6 others.
Genie will likely want to increase DEX to 20, in which case they are falling behind in the useful feats as well.
Overall Hexblade just gets the edge 9/10 times. But I do disagree that non-hexblade blades are "terrible"
Non hexblade Warlocks need to get Armor of Shadows about as much as rogues need to get Moderately Armored feat. Both rogue and warlock get light armor proficiency and maxing dexterity gets their AC up to 17 without magic armor or something else to boost it. Getting it to 18 with Armor of Shadows is nice, but not required. It can be used pre- level 5 to help out and then swapped to pact of the Blade specific invocations to improve damage.
I'm not seeing anything that gives the Hexblade more HP. They can regain HP if their cursed target dies, which would be equal to their warlock level + their charisma modifier. Assuming max charisma, that would be 13 HP but it would require that a creature was cursed, that it died, and that the warlock took damage. It's all very likely to happen, but not guaranteed. If the difference is coming because of build differences from hex warrior allowing the build to focus on charisma, there isn't a guarantee that those differences would be the same for every player.
The non hexblade can get Inspiring Leader at 12 as well, still have max dex, and still be giving 14 or 15 Temp HP. This is assuming that someone else in party hasn't taken the feat and that the party isn't utilizing a lot of temp HP options (Armor of Agathys, subclass options that rely on the presence of temp HP or that grant temp HP like Fiendlock, etc.). It can still be useful in those cases, but it's less impactful, and the timing can be very important. Chef feat can be used to "heal" with temp HP through the treats and the treats can bev distributed to be eaten after the Temp HP from inspiring Leader are depleted, whereas Armor of Agathys as a central part of a build means that the central part of the build isn't being used or the temp HP from Inspiring Leader aren't being fully utilized.
Again, these are useful points of data to consider and can be used to help sway the player one way or the other, but there are other factors that must also be considered outside of the white room build considerations.
See previous post about stat allocation for hexblades vs. others.
Basically they have more flex with ASI which means they get more CON (as the build I quoted showed).
Optimus your entire argument is based purely on a single set of stats. But the point is there IS NEVER just a single set of stats. I could roll 6 sets of 18 or I could roll 6 sets of 8. I mean you can say "my build is better but only if you roll these exact stats" sure, but that's not comparing the actual class/subclass abilities properly.
I could absolutely have put the 18 I rolled in Chr and the 16 into Str, then picked a race like Half Elf for the +2 Chr then picked Hexblade and Pact of the Blade, and sure I would have been the 'mostest optimised' Hexblade in existence - along with the 8 million other Hexblades with the exact same stats and the exact same invocations, and the exact same spells known. Where is the fun in that?
Optimus your entire argument is based purely on a single set of stats. But the point is there IS NEVER just a single set of stats. I could roll 6 sets of 18 or I could roll 6 sets of 8. I mean you can say "my build is better but only if you roll these exact stats" sure, but that's not comparing the actual class/subclass abilities properly.
I could absolutely have put the 18 I rolled in Chr and the 16 into Str, then picked a race like Half Elf for the +2 Chr then picked Hexblade and Pact of the Blade, and sure I would have been the 'mostest optimised' Hexblade in existence - along with the 8 million other Hexblades with the exact same stats and the exact same invocations, and the exact same spells known. Where is the fun in that?
1. I never discuss rolled stats as an option as I feel that is not a fair comparison. Rolled produces too much variation for any kind of productive discussion IMO.
2. Yes I was as I was directly quoting a build comparison so yes I was discussing the stats outlined there.
3. I do not disagree that Hexblades end up the same....99% of the time they do and thats fine. I am just saying they are definitely at a high advantage for Pact of Blade.
At level 8, a melee-focused Genie probably has 18 Dex, 14 Con, and 18 Charisma (after having taken a +1 Cha feat, and a +2 Dex ASI).
AC 17 in Mage Armor, wielding a 1d8 rapier
No shield option, still a 1d8 rapier.
Attacks for +7 to hit, twice per Attack action with Thirsting Blade
does 1d8+4 damage before Hex, +3 damage on one hit
Spells are +7 to hit, DC 15
I'm not going to sit here and argue that the Hexblade isn't more specialized for melee than the Genie is: it is, Genie's can be very rich ranged warlocks, while hexblades are wasting features out of melee. But it is not a "significant" difference... and even less of one with multiclassing factored in, so that the Hexblade doesn't have Medium Armor and Shield options that the Genie doesn't. With that equalized, you're literally just left with the Hexblade having once/long rest proficiency bonus damage added to all attacks vs. one opponent, vs. the genie getting to do that on one hit per turn all day long against every opponent. Hexblades get to 20 Charisma quick and tidy, but if we're talking melee warlocks that are more interested in attacking than spellcasting (or, casting spells to buff their own attacks), then a Genie getting to 20 Dex or 20 Strength by 8 isn't really any worse off.
There's not no difference. But I'd rather build a Rogue/Genie or a Fighter/Genie than a Rogue/Hex or Fighter/Hex. Both subclasses add bonus damage, but Genie does so more often, and has richer subclass features.
Some things you forgot to include:
HP
Hexblade will have 67 HP and the Genie has 59.
Also Improved Pact Weapon for Hexblade makes it a 1d8+6 (or 2d6+6) with a +9 to hit.
so +2 to hit, +2 damage which is significant.
Now you could say the same for the Genie as it could pick up Improved Pact weapon as well but it will need to take the Mage Armor invocation and since Pact of Blade is so invocation thirsty they will fall behind most of the time as they will always need to have that invocation slot filled.
Hexblade can then just start picking up the extra damage invocations (Eldtrich Smite, Maddening Hex, etc...)
Now I agree that Pact of Blade can work on a non-hexblade but it is sure of a lot easier for hexblade by a LONG shot.
Just to be fair is all....
Hexblade at 12 ASI can pick up Inspiring Leader and add 17 HP to themselves and 6 others.
Genie will likely want to increase DEX to 20, in which case they are falling behind in the useful feats as well.
Overall Hexblade just gets the edge 9/10 times. But I do disagree that non-hexblade blades are "terrible"
Non hexblade Warlocks need to get Armor of Shadows about as much as rogues need to get Moderately Armored feat. Both rogue and warlock get light armor proficiency and maxing dexterity gets their AC up to 17 without magic armor or something else to boost it. Getting it to 18 with Armor of Shadows is nice, but not required. It can be used pre- level 5 to help out and then swapped to pact of the Blade specific invocations to improve damage.
I'm not seeing anything that gives the Hexblade more HP. They can regain HP if their cursed target dies, which would be equal to their warlock level + their charisma modifier. Assuming max charisma, that would be 13 HP but it would require that a creature was cursed, that it died, and that the warlock took damage. It's all very likely to happen, but not guaranteed. If the difference is coming because of build differences from hex warrior allowing the build to focus on charisma, there isn't a guarantee that those differences would be the same for every player.
The non hexblade can get Inspiring Leader at 12 as well, still have max dex, and still be giving 14 or 15 Temp HP. This is assuming that someone else in party hasn't taken the feat and that the party isn't utilizing a lot of temp HP options (Armor of Agathys, subclass options that rely on the presence of temp HP or that grant temp HP like Fiendlock, etc.). It can still be useful in those cases, but it's less impactful, and the timing can be very important. Chef feat can be used to "heal" with temp HP through the treats and the treats can bev distributed to be eaten after the Temp HP from inspiring Leader are depleted, whereas Armor of Agathys as a central part of a build means that the central part of the build isn't being used or the temp HP from Inspiring Leader aren't being fully utilized.
Again, these are useful points of data to consider and can be used to help sway the player one way or the other, but there are other factors that must also be considered outside of the white room build considerations.
See previous post about stat allocation for hexblades vs. others.
Basically they have more flex with ASI which means they get more CON (as the build I quoted showed).
More flex doesn't equal more CON. It means flexibility. At level 8, if we are assuming that the priority is to max the attacking stat, that means that the hexblade will typically spend two ASIs getting 20 charisma and the non hexblade will spend two ASIs getting 20 dexterity. The constitution doesn't need to change at all between them because neither is taking ASIs to bump Constitution. The difference will be with the Charisma. Instead of having a 14 dex, the non hexblade will have a 13 or 14 constitution. The racial bonuses could be applied to dexterity and constitution to give you a 16 in each to start with a 13 charisma. Both builds would have their wisdom be 12, and their intelligence and strength be 10 and 8 in some order. The only reason why going with a 15+2 and 14+1 is superior to a 15+1 and 14+2 is if you want to take a half feat at 4 to get the 15 stat to 18 AND have something extra. If you don't care about that 16/16 is superior to 17/15 since it gets to benefit from the higher second stat earlier instead of waiting until level 4 when both would presumably be 18/16. Having a higher charisma early only matters if the non hexblade cares about using the charisma. Armor of Agathys doesn't, Booming Blade doesn't, utility cantrips and spells typically don't, hex doesn't, the only thing that specifically looks at the charisma for genie is the AC of your vessel which is tied to your spell save DC. If it is destroyed, you leave it (if you are inside) and you can spend an hour doing a ceremony to get a new one. The worst consequence that I can see coming from it is that you can't use it as a super bag of holding anymore until you create a new one, and that's assuming that the DM had let you do that.
It does mean that you have to be more careful about your spell selection, but EKs have been doing that forever and someone can easily treat this similarly to an EK. If you aren't using your spell slots because you are using Eldritch Smite, your spell save DC doesn't matter because you aren't casting spells at all. If any invocations use your spell save DC or charisma modifier, you choose different ones or live with the difference. Yes, Lifedrinker uses your Charisma Modifier, but that's at level 12. You can start to build up your Charisma at that point or you can ignore it and choose something else. Since you can only attack twice with your pact weapon under most circumstances, you're only giving up a little bit of damage if you keep your constitution the same as you would with your hexblade build perhaps as much as 6 damage per round at that point. Considering that the Hexblade's Curse only adds damage to the target of that curse and you can't move it until you get to 14, being able to apply the Genie's Wrath on one hit every turn versus might be able to add enough damage to over come that depending on how often the hexblade can get the short rests to reapply the hexblade's curse and how many hits it can land in the one minute that hexblade's curse is active.
As for AC. At 1, the hexblade is at 16 with scale mail once they find it or purchase it (the cost of which is 50 gp, versus 45 for studded leather) and then they have to upgrade again to get max AC with half plate (costs 750 gp) and deal with disadvantage on stealth (barring medium armor master along with it's potential to add an additional point of AC through dex that won't be realized if dex stays at 14), breastplate (costs 400 gp and has the same AC as scale mail) or Mithral Armor. They can get to 18 with a shield once they find one or purchase one (10 gp to buy). Otherwise, the hexblade is stuck at 13 AC with Leather while the non hexblade as 14 AC with Leather. Both can get Armor of Shadows at second level for Mage Armor to boost it to 15 and 16, respectively, though the hexblade may have been lucky enough to be able to grab scale mail by that time. The number of quality combat focused non Eldritch Blast invocations available at second level aren't overwhelming. Grabbing one of Armor of Shadows and Fiendish Vigor can easily be achievable to ensure survival, and the ever popular Devil's Sight/Darkness combination can come online at third level (and darkness doesn't care about charisma). You can decide which of those three options offers the most protection for you (+2 AC; versus False Life at will to "heal" yourself with temp HP; versus disadvantage on all attacks against you plus advantage on attacks against creatures within your reach while potentially gimping the rest of your party). You can even go with two of them at level 2 and swap one out for improved pact weapon at 3, which allows you to use a bow as your pact weapon, negating some of the need for charisma for ranged attacks and improving your survivability by allowing you to attack from range if needed (requires arrows, costing 1 gp a piece and with the potential to lose half of your expended arrows per RAW. YMMV depending on your DM). At fifth level, you'll pick up an extra invocation that can go toward Thirsting Blade or Eldritch Smite and you'll have to decide whether Improved Pact Weapon or your defensive invocation is more important for you to get the other (or whether the other is worth getting at all). However, the hexblade would have to determine if Maddening Hex and/or Relentless Hex would be worth grabbing for Hex and hexblade's curse (applies to non hexblades that can only get Hex or that have a similar curse that can be affected as well).
Meanwhile, the non hexblade's AC increases with each dex improvement, meaning that 14 or 16 is now a 15 or 17 with leather or Mage Armor. If we are assuming that the hexblade picked up scale mail, we can assume that the non hexblade picked up studded leather. Hexblade is now at either 16 or 18 AC (with the shield) and the non hexblade is at either 16 with studded leather or 17 with mage armor. Mage armor is probably a bit superfluous at that point, meaning that Fiendish Vigor and Devil's Sight would more impactful than the 5% increased chance to avoid attacks and only Devil's Sight offers an offensive edge that might be able to really move someone off of one of the more offensively oriented invocations (Improved pact weapon doesn't matter if you aren't using your weapon as a spellcasting focus, already have a magic weapon that offers a +1 or better magic bonus, and aren't using a bow; thirsting blade doesn't matter if you are using a heavy crossbow or light crossbow with improved pact weapon and aren't using melee as much or have extra attack from another source; Eldritch Smite only matters if you are wanting to use your pact slots for extra damage, which you won't if you are using hex and darkness on a regular basis). You'll pick up an extra invocation at 7 to add (back) whatever you didn't choose at 5, assuming that you've been content to not choose another invocation. Eldritch Mind only matters if you are trying to use a concentration spell, which would help with Hex, but won't help if you aren't using concentration spells or used human variant or custom lineage to get Warcaster. It also won't be as crucial if you started as a fighter, sorcerer, barbarian or artificer to get con save proficiency.
The difference between a hexblade pact of the blade and another pact of the blade are primarily factored between spell selection (not just shield, which is excellent for the melee character, and whatever smite spell comes with hexblade since you aren't likely to use one of your limited spell slots on it when hex and/or smiting will probably be better) and the ability to use Eldritch Blast or another spell as a ranged option. Using EB then puts pressure on you to take EB invocations because they are just that good and melee can't compare to adding your charisma modifier multiple times to a target until 12th level with lifedrinker.
There is a reason that Hexblade gets a lot of love, especially from optimizers. But it's advantages are typically only a couple of points here or there and not enough to put you seriously behind unless you stress about someone doing more damage than you. As a solo player, hexblade's advantages would be more telling, but in a party, it's not as critical.
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Does this seem like reliable source of damage?
By level 1 one attack already gets a bonus to damage equal to proficiency once(of genies type), by 7 you get multi attack, and by 12 you have charisma damage added on to attacks as necrotic.
The rest is resistance, flight, short rest acceleration + extra healing, and a free level 6th spell effect at 14.
Pact of the Blade is terrible unless you're a Hexblade to make it stop being terrible. Hexblade + Pact of the Blade is good, Genie + Pact of the Tome is good.
Pact of the Blade is not terrible if you're not a Hexblade. All Hexblade offers is the ability to use Charisma for the attack and damage rolls instead of strength or dexterity - medium armour - and martial weapon proficiencies.
If you're taking Pact of the Blade then you will already be getting proficiency with whatever weapon you decide to summon - so the weapon proficiencies will be superfluous. You can absolutely build any Warlock to have decent Dexterity as well as Charisma. With light armour the AC will be as high as medium armour would be and damage with a finesse weapon will be great.
Hexblade is absolutely not required for weapon-based Warlocks to be viable.
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Furthermore, the Pact of the Genie bonuses aren't tied to an ability score modifier, but rather to proficiency bonus (vessel AC is the only thing tied to casting modifier, and why would anything attack your ring???). If you were ever going to try to build a low-CHA Strength or Dexterity based warlock that doesn't rely on Eldritch Blast, I think Genie would be an excellent subclass to base that on. You can splash Genie 3 on top of a conventional martial character, and walk away with pure profit!
A Dex-based genie/rogue Pact of the Blade would be a good avenue to picking up two attacks/Attack action, without multiclassing anywhere else.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
That's not really true. Try making one at... I don't know, let's pick a level. Say 8? 8 is convenient for emphasizing the challenges of being MAD.
This is an L8 Hexlock, approximately:
Make your own non-Hexblade Warlock (don't forget the Curse and Specter!), and compare it both offensively and defensively to the above. Its deficits will be significant. I'm shying away from even weirder corner cases, like how a Tortle doing this can dump Dexterity all the way down to 8 just fine. I also didn't bother delving into bonus spells, but that matters for any Patron choice, naturally, and the Hexblade's bonus spells matter, too.
I think it's probably easier to list the differences than the similarities...
I'm not going to sit here and argue that the Hexblade isn't more specialized for melee than the Genie is: it is, Genie's can be very rich ranged warlocks, while hexblades are wasting features out of melee. But it is not a "significant" difference... and even less of one with multiclassing factored in, so that the Hexblade doesn't have Medium Armor and Shield options that the Genie doesn't. With that equalized, you're literally just left with the Hexblade having once/long rest proficiency bonus damage added to all attacks vs. one opponent, vs. the genie getting to do that on one hit per turn all day long against every opponent. Hexblades get to 20 Charisma quick and tidy, but if we're talking melee warlocks that are more interested in attacking than spellcasting (or, casting spells to buff their own attacks), then a Genie getting to 20 Dex or 20 Strength by 8 isn't really any worse off.
There's not no difference. But I'd rather build a Rogue/Genie or a Fighter/Genie than a Rogue/Hex or Fighter/Hex. Both subclasses add bonus damage, but Genie does so more often, and has richer subclass features.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I am playing a strength based character for the first time in a very long time, he is a Padlock 5/1. I have chosen Oath of the Open Sea, and the Fathomless as his Patron. Yes that is not optimised, but it is thematic and immensely fun to play. I am playing him as a sort of FR version of one of the Knights of the Round Table, chivalric and questing, instead of some sea monster I have chosen the Lady of the Lake to be his patron, and the character has been one of the most fun I have ever played. When it comes to picking a pact though, I don't think I will be losing out much by not being a Hexblade as I already have a 20 strength and heavy armour, shields and martial weapons.
This is completely wrong. Pact of the Blade is fine with a melee build. Hexblade is just the lazy way out.
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Bladelocks do not require max cha. You are playing as a melee or a bow archer, not as a caster. You choose spells that do not care about your charisma score, mostly, out of combat utility. In combat, you're going to be eldritch smiting with your spell slots or using Armor of Agathys as a damage shield. Neither care about your charisma.
Is Hexblade strictly better? Yes. That doesn't make other options terrible; it means the lazy power creepy option that never should have been added is power creepy.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Do remember that invocations level requirements are class level and not character level. Thirsting Blade doesn't come online until warlock 5, meaning the 3 level dip wouldn't get it without DM fiat. Not a big deal for the Fighter X version, but the Rogue X variation wouldn't get extra attack. For either build, getting warlock 5 also means Eldritch Smite, which isn't a bad option.
Moving on from the quoted section to the conversation in general with a segue, lifedrinker for the charisma based necrotic damage is warlock 12. Hexblades have an advantage here (for 4 levels) because it's difficult to max 2 stats before level 16 but pretty easy to max 1 by level 12. Of course, that advantage isn't realized in every campaign since quite a few don't reach 12. For those that do, it's likely the difference of 1 or 2 damage per attack.
Pact of the Blade lets you choose the style of weapon that you summon and gives you proficiency with your pact weapon, meaning there is no differentiation there between hexblades and other patrons who choose pact of the Blade due to the weapon proficiencies that hexblade offers. This means that martial weapon proficiency is only a benefit for non pact of the blade warlocks or for levels 1 and 2. It should also be noted that benefit is only 1 average damage for d10 versatile weapons since hex warrior doesn't apply to weapons with the Two-handed property without pact of the blade.
To be fair, hexblades are the premier melee Warlocks since they do offer the best specialization options and do open up more customization options by not forcing pact of the Blade to be an offensively oriented melee warlock that's at least somewhat effective. However, the difference between a hexblade pact of the Blade and another patron pact of the Blade isn't so significant that you can't make it work and still be quite effective. You simply want to know what you are giving up for one and gaining from the other, while knowing how far your campaign is going.
Warlocks get subclass benefits at 1, 6, 10, & 14. If you are only playing LMoP, level 1 is all that matters. Curse of Strahd... levels 1 & 6 with a little bit of 10. Most of the time level 14 won't matter, but the campaigns that will go that far will probably want to take a look. Then they have to determine if getting the later level stuff is worth sticking with the early level stuff. If you aren't stressed about optimization, grabbing other patrons for the flavor can be very thematic and fit your character well.
For multiclass builds, do remember that your warlock abilities often scale with warlock levels. Fiendlock get temp HP when they reduce a hostile creature to 0 HP, which can help a melee character to whether more hits. However the Temp HPs are equal to your charisma modifier plus you warlock level. If you've taken a 1 level dip and left your charisma at the 13 or 14 that you used to MC, then it's only 2-3 temp HPs, which will act much more like HAM's -3 damage clause. Is that worth choosing instead of hexblade for your Paladin MC that would love to focus on charisma for auras, damage and spellcasting? What about your Barbarian that doesn't give a rip about charisma but loves tasty HP bonuses (2-3 HP is like 4-6 with resistance in play)?
Edit: formatting and I remembered that Eldritch Smite only cares about Pact Magic Slots, not spell slots in general.
Some things you forgot to include:
HP
Hexblade will have 67 HP and the Genie has 59.
Also Improved Pact Weapon for Hexblade makes it a 1d8+6 (or 2d6+6) with a +9 to hit.
so +2 to hit, +2 damage which is significant.
Now you could say the same for the Genie as it could pick up Improved Pact weapon as well but it will need to take the Mage Armor invocation and since Pact of Blade is so invocation thirsty they will fall behind most of the time as they will always need to have that invocation slot filled.
Hexblade can then just start picking up the extra damage invocations (Eldtrich Smite, Maddening Hex, etc...)
Now I agree that Pact of Blade can work on a non-hexblade but it is sure of a lot easier for hexblade by a LONG shot.
Just to be fair is all....
Hexblade at 12 ASI can pick up Inspiring Leader and add 17 HP to themselves and 6 others.
Genie will likely want to increase DEX to 20, in which case they are falling behind in the useful feats as well.
Overall Hexblade just gets the edge 9/10 times. But I do disagree that non-hexblade blades are "terrible"
I don't get your logic here.
There is nothing in Hexblade that grants bonus hit points, and both Hexblade patron and Genie patron warlocks have 1d8+con for hitpoints.
Improved pact weapon is a Pact of the Blade invocation, the patron makes no difference so a genie patron could take it as well as a hexblade patron warlock. There is no difference here either.
Likewise Eldritch Smite and Maddening Hex are also open to any Blade pact warlock with the hex spell as a spell known - again no difference.
Mage armour only provides a +1 bonus to AC over studded leather, it's not mandatory - just a bit nice, and you will lose other bonuses from wearing physical armour such as gleaming, resistant etc. Once you get magical armour it is irrelevant. Not to mention if you multiclass with a class that grants med/hvy armour and or shield.
There is nothing here in your arguement that shows a Hexblade Pact of the Blade to be significantly better, especially when you add in the bonus abilities and spells that the genie gets. Sure it is easier and simpler to go Hexblade, but it is also cliched and a tad boring.
Please read the builds. One has a 16 Con (hexblade) and the other has a 14 Con (Genie). Reason for this is the hexblade can stop at Dex14 thanks to medium armor and can instead pump constitution. So naturally the hexblade will be able to invest more into CON.
Improved Pact on both yes and I mentioned that... However the Genie has to always use 1 invocation for Mage Armor and therefore will have one less for stuff like Maddening and what not. Yes they are available but the invocation tax for genie is higher.
Agree with Mage Armor but then you will be +3 AC behind hexblade which is very significant. Also hexblade gets shield spell as well on their bonus spell list.
So yeah I do think hexblade had it easier
Well of course one will be better than another if it has better stats. That shouldn't even be part of a discussion on which patron is better though. Especially when you have such a massive variation in stat generation methods. In my games we roll for stats and at lvl 6 my 5/1 Paladin (Open Sea) / Warlock (Fathomless) has a 20 strength, an 18 constitution and a 16 charisma. He won't be taking the mage armour invocation, but will be taking Pact of the Blade when I get to that level. Is it the most optimal build? No, but in last night's game session I was able to nova against an aboleth and did 60 damage in the first round of the combat. Not to mention how super cool it was to have my character dive into the water and go head to head with it. Flavour can and does win out sometimes.
But at the end of the day we are both saying the same thing, based purely on class features and not stat rolls, Hexblade Pact of the Blade is better than any other patron, but in most cases not not significantly better to the point that you are gimping yourself by taking something else. Genie gives you a free fly speed a number of times equal to proficiency at level 6 which means you don't need to take the fly spell for example.
Non hexblade Warlocks need to get Armor of Shadows about as much as rogues need to get Moderately Armored feat. Both rogue and warlock get light armor proficiency and maxing dexterity gets their AC up to 17 without magic armor or something else to boost it. Getting it to 18 with Armor of Shadows is nice, but not required. It can be used pre- level 5 to help out and then swapped to pact of the Blade specific invocations to improve damage.
I'm not seeing anything that gives the Hexblade more HP. They can regain HP if their cursed target dies, which would be equal to their warlock level + their charisma modifier. Assuming max charisma, that would be 13 HP but it would require that a creature was cursed, that it died, and that the warlock took damage. It's all very likely to happen, but not guaranteed. If the difference is coming because of build differences from hex warrior allowing the build to focus on charisma, there isn't a guarantee that those differences would be the same for every player.
The non hexblade can get Inspiring Leader at 12 as well, still have max dex, and still be giving 14 or 15 Temp HP. This is assuming that someone else in party hasn't taken the feat and that the party isn't utilizing a lot of temp HP options (Armor of Agathys, subclass options that rely on the presence of temp HP or that grant temp HP like Fiendlock, etc.). It can still be useful in those cases, but it's less impactful, and the timing can be very important. Chef feat can be used to "heal" with temp HP through the treats and the treats can bev distributed to be eaten after the Temp HP from inspiring Leader are depleted, whereas Armor of Agathys as a central part of a build means that the central part of the build isn't being used or the temp HP from Inspiring Leader aren't being fully utilized.
Again, these are useful points of data to consider and can be used to help sway the player one way or the other, but there are other factors that must also be considered outside of the white room build considerations.
So yes patron matters when it comes to stats and here is why:
A hexblade can keep dex at 14 forever and have max AC.
Any other warlock must max DEX to get their AC To 17....meaning they need to increase their DEX first most likely with the 4th and 8th ASI...which leaves CHA lacking if you pick this route.
If you pick the split route (i.e. CHA and DEX to 18) then you are looking at a -3 AC compared to hexblade along with a lower DC and attack bonus.
So the hexblade has the advantage as it just needs to increase CHA from level 1 to level 8.
This means they get:
Max AC bonus from level 1
Max DC available at level 8
Max attack bonus at level 8
More ASI at baseline to spend on CON so they will have higher HP totals.
So yes patron does matter for this as it clearly gives hexblade an advantage to not needing to touch Dex at all from level 1 on.
Does this mean the other patrons are unplayable for Pact of Blade? No...and it seems we do agree on that. I played a very good Celestial Tiefling Pact of Blade warlock and it felt awesome with the racial smite spells.
I am just saying that hexblade has a huge advantage and it is meaningful...but only if you really want to focus on the math and not the thematic nature of the game. For me it will depend on the group I am playing with and what the DM will throw at us. If we are looking at combat as a RP tool and less about deadly encounters I will likely feel more comfortable with my Celestial Tiefling Warlock....but if its a meat grinder I am going hexblade.
See previous post about stat allocation for hexblades vs. others.
Basically they have more flex with ASI which means they get more CON (as the build I quoted showed).
Optimus your entire argument is based purely on a single set of stats. But the point is there IS NEVER just a single set of stats. I could roll 6 sets of 18 or I could roll 6 sets of 8. I mean you can say "my build is better but only if you roll these exact stats" sure, but that's not comparing the actual class/subclass abilities properly.
I could absolutely have put the 18 I rolled in Chr and the 16 into Str, then picked a race like Half Elf for the +2 Chr then picked Hexblade and Pact of the Blade, and sure I would have been the 'mostest optimised' Hexblade in existence - along with the 8 million other Hexblades with the exact same stats and the exact same invocations, and the exact same spells known. Where is the fun in that?
1. I never discuss rolled stats as an option as I feel that is not a fair comparison. Rolled produces too much variation for any kind of productive discussion IMO.
2. Yes I was as I was directly quoting a build comparison so yes I was discussing the stats outlined there.
3. I do not disagree that Hexblades end up the same....99% of the time they do and thats fine. I am just saying they are definitely at a high advantage for Pact of Blade.
More flex doesn't equal more CON. It means flexibility. At level 8, if we are assuming that the priority is to max the attacking stat, that means that the hexblade will typically spend two ASIs getting 20 charisma and the non hexblade will spend two ASIs getting 20 dexterity. The constitution doesn't need to change at all between them because neither is taking ASIs to bump Constitution. The difference will be with the Charisma. Instead of having a 14 dex, the non hexblade will have a 13 or 14 constitution. The racial bonuses could be applied to dexterity and constitution to give you a 16 in each to start with a 13 charisma. Both builds would have their wisdom be 12, and their intelligence and strength be 10 and 8 in some order. The only reason why going with a 15+2 and 14+1 is superior to a 15+1 and 14+2 is if you want to take a half feat at 4 to get the 15 stat to 18 AND have something extra. If you don't care about that 16/16 is superior to 17/15 since it gets to benefit from the higher second stat earlier instead of waiting until level 4 when both would presumably be 18/16. Having a higher charisma early only matters if the non hexblade cares about using the charisma. Armor of Agathys doesn't, Booming Blade doesn't, utility cantrips and spells typically don't, hex doesn't, the only thing that specifically looks at the charisma for genie is the AC of your vessel which is tied to your spell save DC. If it is destroyed, you leave it (if you are inside) and you can spend an hour doing a ceremony to get a new one. The worst consequence that I can see coming from it is that you can't use it as a super bag of holding anymore until you create a new one, and that's assuming that the DM had let you do that.
It does mean that you have to be more careful about your spell selection, but EKs have been doing that forever and someone can easily treat this similarly to an EK. If you aren't using your spell slots because you are using Eldritch Smite, your spell save DC doesn't matter because you aren't casting spells at all. If any invocations use your spell save DC or charisma modifier, you choose different ones or live with the difference. Yes, Lifedrinker uses your Charisma Modifier, but that's at level 12. You can start to build up your Charisma at that point or you can ignore it and choose something else. Since you can only attack twice with your pact weapon under most circumstances, you're only giving up a little bit of damage if you keep your constitution the same as you would with your hexblade build perhaps as much as 6 damage per round at that point. Considering that the Hexblade's Curse only adds damage to the target of that curse and you can't move it until you get to 14, being able to apply the Genie's Wrath on one hit every turn versus might be able to add enough damage to over come that depending on how often the hexblade can get the short rests to reapply the hexblade's curse and how many hits it can land in the one minute that hexblade's curse is active.
As for AC. At 1, the hexblade is at 16 with scale mail once they find it or purchase it (the cost of which is 50 gp, versus 45 for studded leather) and then they have to upgrade again to get max AC with half plate (costs 750 gp) and deal with disadvantage on stealth (barring medium armor master along with it's potential to add an additional point of AC through dex that won't be realized if dex stays at 14), breastplate (costs 400 gp and has the same AC as scale mail) or Mithral Armor. They can get to 18 with a shield once they find one or purchase one (10 gp to buy). Otherwise, the hexblade is stuck at 13 AC with Leather while the non hexblade as 14 AC with Leather. Both can get Armor of Shadows at second level for Mage Armor to boost it to 15 and 16, respectively, though the hexblade may have been lucky enough to be able to grab scale mail by that time. The number of quality combat focused non Eldritch Blast invocations available at second level aren't overwhelming. Grabbing one of Armor of Shadows and Fiendish Vigor can easily be achievable to ensure survival, and the ever popular Devil's Sight/Darkness combination can come online at third level (and darkness doesn't care about charisma). You can decide which of those three options offers the most protection for you (+2 AC; versus False Life at will to "heal" yourself with temp HP; versus disadvantage on all attacks against you plus advantage on attacks against creatures within your reach while potentially gimping the rest of your party). You can even go with two of them at level 2 and swap one out for improved pact weapon at 3, which allows you to use a bow as your pact weapon, negating some of the need for charisma for ranged attacks and improving your survivability by allowing you to attack from range if needed (requires arrows, costing 1 gp a piece and with the potential to lose half of your expended arrows per RAW. YMMV depending on your DM). At fifth level, you'll pick up an extra invocation that can go toward Thirsting Blade or Eldritch Smite and you'll have to decide whether Improved Pact Weapon or your defensive invocation is more important for you to get the other (or whether the other is worth getting at all). However, the hexblade would have to determine if Maddening Hex and/or Relentless Hex would be worth grabbing for Hex and hexblade's curse (applies to non hexblades that can only get Hex or that have a similar curse that can be affected as well).
Meanwhile, the non hexblade's AC increases with each dex improvement, meaning that 14 or 16 is now a 15 or 17 with leather or Mage Armor. If we are assuming that the hexblade picked up scale mail, we can assume that the non hexblade picked up studded leather. Hexblade is now at either 16 or 18 AC (with the shield) and the non hexblade is at either 16 with studded leather or 17 with mage armor. Mage armor is probably a bit superfluous at that point, meaning that Fiendish Vigor and Devil's Sight would more impactful than the 5% increased chance to avoid attacks and only Devil's Sight offers an offensive edge that might be able to really move someone off of one of the more offensively oriented invocations (Improved pact weapon doesn't matter if you aren't using your weapon as a spellcasting focus, already have a magic weapon that offers a +1 or better magic bonus, and aren't using a bow; thirsting blade doesn't matter if you are using a heavy crossbow or light crossbow with improved pact weapon and aren't using melee as much or have extra attack from another source; Eldritch Smite only matters if you are wanting to use your pact slots for extra damage, which you won't if you are using hex and darkness on a regular basis). You'll pick up an extra invocation at 7 to add (back) whatever you didn't choose at 5, assuming that you've been content to not choose another invocation. Eldritch Mind only matters if you are trying to use a concentration spell, which would help with Hex, but won't help if you aren't using concentration spells or used human variant or custom lineage to get Warcaster. It also won't be as crucial if you started as a fighter, sorcerer, barbarian or artificer to get con save proficiency.
The difference between a hexblade pact of the blade and another pact of the blade are primarily factored between spell selection (not just shield, which is excellent for the melee character, and whatever smite spell comes with hexblade since you aren't likely to use one of your limited spell slots on it when hex and/or smiting will probably be better) and the ability to use Eldritch Blast or another spell as a ranged option. Using EB then puts pressure on you to take EB invocations because they are just that good and melee can't compare to adding your charisma modifier multiple times to a target until 12th level with lifedrinker.
There is a reason that Hexblade gets a lot of love, especially from optimizers. But it's advantages are typically only a couple of points here or there and not enough to put you seriously behind unless you stress about someone doing more damage than you. As a solo player, hexblade's advantages would be more telling, but in a party, it's not as critical.