yeah they are just better built for pact of blade with the ability to put more in CON, have less invocations for defense, and the bonus damage per hit with the curse. Not to mention the THP from taking something down.
The pluses add up to be pretty significant but still its not a huge deal overall if you are in it for more than the math for sure.
I ended up going 1 level fighter to get heavy armor as I wanted to go STR and use a greatsword for thematics.
Overall I feel they would be a very good Pact of Blade warlock as they get some Smite spells from the racial options and would be pretty much on par with a hexblade damage wise with about a 10-20% DPR drop...but a big boost to versatility with BA heals, extra cantrips, and some THP in another level.
Look, by 20, the Fighter/Hexblade (POB) and the Fighter/Genie (POB) can both have the same maximum to-hit and save DC. They can wear the same armor, have the same AC, the same hit points. The Hexblade had less feat pressure, so might have taken something fun like Inspiring Leader, while the Genie is more likely to have 20's in both Cha and Dex or Str. The Genie will do more damage more consistently, will be more mobile in combat, and will have more resistances. The Hexblade will do more spike damage to one enemy (or one combat) per long rest, will be tankier against attacks, and will have an edgelord pet. There's differences, but they're minor.
The demonstrable difference comes when we get back to talking "Warlock splash" with 13 or 14 Charisma, and not an excessive number of Warlock levels. A Hexblade is useless for that: they hand out weapon and armor proficiencies you already have, enable you to attack with a stat you don't want to use, provide you a once/long rest ability which has Charisma- and Warlock-level based bonuses, and their level 6 feature quickly becomes obsolete unless your Warlock levels progress. For being a class so commonly taken as a single 1-level splash, Hexblade actually does almost nothing for you other than switching attacks to Charisma. Meanwhile for a Genie, low Charisma doesn't impact their subclass features at all, and their level 6 feature provides a massive boon for melee characters, which progresses based on character level rather than Warlock level.
Does a pure Hexblade progress easier as a melee POB than a pure Genie? Sure. But a Rogue, or Monk, or whatever X/Genie 1, 3. or 6 progresses much easier than a [whatever] X/Hexblade 1, 3 or 6, if Charisma isn't your main bag. Leave Charisma at 13, ignore it entirely, and what have you gotten? Darkvision invocations etc., short rest spell slots for self-buffing, mobility, or exploration spells, bonus damage every round, flying... a bunch of melee-relevant stuff, that probably fits into your build pretty easily, rather than an attack stat you aren't using, a once/day ability, and a spooky ghost that dies in the first fight every day.
They have significant advantages and they come with significant costs. Even from a math perspective. You don't get to start out with medium armor as a hexblade. You have to purchase it or acquire it from loot or a hand me down. You don't get to start with a shield. Neither of those options are available as starting equipment on any warlock. If you want to start with it, you will have to choose gold and purchase those options and 50 gp is a significant cost. The other build can simply start with starting gear, take leather, upgrade to mage armor at 2, "upgrade" to studded leather or some sort of magic armor when it is more available.
A hexblade can't put anymore CON into a build than any other warlock. They are capped at 20 just like anyone else. They can have a higher CON and CHA earlier, but that only matters to the other warlock if they ALSO want CHA that early. If they don't, it's a null point. Both builds can easily have a 16 attack stat, 14 CON, and 14 non-attack stat DEX/CHA. It's only an advantage for non hexblades that also want to have higher CHA. That may have been the case between those two specific builds, but it isn't a requirement. The non Warlock doesn't need to put more into invocations for defense. I outlined that in my last post. When it makes a bigger difference is early when the offensive invocations aren't available and the utility ones are dependent on party composition. The hexblade is just as dependent on defensive invocations if they can't acquire the gear, and if they can acquire the gear, the non hexblade can acquire better gear, too. Perhaps not in specific instances, but generically speaking. The shield is a nice boost and Shield is lovely as well, but both of those can be achieved in other ways. Between pure warlocks, both are nice for melee, but neither is a prerequisite and can be offset through other circumstances. Both are better if the warlock wants to simply stand and fight as opposed to acting more like a skirmisher and both have their own costs. Sword and board makes spellcasting harder and every Shield cast is not used on Hex or another spell. The presence of Shield puts pressure on the player to keep a spell slot open in case it is needed.
The bonus damage per hit is only available on the cursed creature and makes it superior on sturdier enemies. The Genie also gets to add bonus damage, but it's only once per turn. However, it is available on every creature that they attack, not just the one that is cursed. If the creature that was cursed dies (say from another character decided to go nova and critting at the same time), moves out of attack range somehow, or otherwise becomes immune to damage, the hexblade doesn't get the bonus damage while they attack other creatures. The genie character does.
THP is nice, but a Fiendlock also gets that option and doesn't have to have the creature that they cursed be the one that dies. In fact, the creature doesn't have to even die, it just has to be reduced to 0 HP by the warlock. They can leave that creature alive but unconcious and the fiendlock still gets the THP. But they do have to be the one that reduces the creature to 0 HP, whereas the hexblade doesn't. Both have advantages and both have disadvantages. Neither matters if they are using another spell or feature that cares about the presence of specific THP, like Armor of Agathys. The THP angle is nice, but it eliminates options or reduces the importance of those THP feature if it doesn't get used.
These are all math options. Unlimited extra damage against a target that doesn't exist is zero extra damage. THP that doesn't get used is the same as zero THP. Better armor is only better if it is used and you can't use it if you don't have it. 0 AC is precisely the same as 100 AC if you are never attacked. The situations matter, the campaign will matter, and the party composition will matter. A white room hexblade pact of the blade is better than a white room non hexblade pact of the blade in melee combat, but the amount that those advantages actually matter will depend on a number of factors. The significance of those advantages are completely dependent on what exactly happens and what changes a player might make based on taking either route. It depends on what costs they are willing to pay to gain the benefits associated with the other options.
It's not just math that will be a factor, it's a question of where you want to apply your math to matter the most. Hexblade is the easiest subclass to build an effective melee warlock that isn't solely reliant on melee, particularly without multiclassing. It does a great job of multiclassing with characters that want to focus on Charisma and still be able to attack in Melee, whether that means being a social beast, whether that means having insane Paladin Auras, whether that means being more of a gishy character, or some combination of the three. It is the 1A of Warlock melee characters, but that doesn't mean that others can't be built to be a 1B. It doesn't mean that others aren't in a position to be as effective melee fighters in a slightly different role. And that is before considering other factors than just math.
Of course, a lot of this difference of opinion can be cleared up by defining what the parameters make up "a significant difference". If an average of .5 points of damage is enough to be significant (ie, I have to have the Greatsword because it gives me better damage than a Great Axe), then hexblade is definitely the option that you want. If significant is a lot closer to a few points of damage (ie, I'll go with the flail because it gives me the option to go with bludgeoning damage, the possibility of getting a [Tooltip Not Found] without changing much about my melee attacks, and I really like the idea of swinging around a ball and chain to smash someone, even if it costs me 2.5 points of damage), then it's not likely to make much difference.
Look, by 20, the Fighter/Hexblade (POB) and the Fighter/Genie (POB) can both have the same maximum to-hit and save DC. They can wear the same armor, have the same AC, the same hit points. The Hexblade had less feat pressure, so might have taken something fun like Inspiring Leader, while the Genie is more likely to have 20's in both Cha and Dex or Str. The Genie will do more damage more consistently, will be more mobile in combat, and will have more resistances. The Hexblade will do more spike damage to one enemy (or one combat) per long rest, will be tankier against attacks, and will have an edgelord pet. There's differences, but they're minor.
The demonstrable difference comes when we get back to talking "Warlock splash" with 13 or 14 Charisma, and not an excessive number of Warlock levels. A Hexblade is useless for that: they hand out weapon and armor proficiencies you already have, enable you to attack with a stat you don't want to use, provide you a once/long rest ability which has Charisma- and Warlock-level based bonuses, and their level 6 feature quickly becomes obsolete unless your Warlock levels progress. For being a class so commonly taken as a single 1-level splash, Hexblade actually does almost nothing for you other than switching attacks to Charisma. Meanwhile for a Genie, low Charisma doesn't impact their subclass features at all, and their level 6 feature provides a massive boon for melee characters, which progresses based on character level rather than Warlock level.
Does a pure Hexblade progress easier as a melee POB than a pure Genie? Sure. But a Rogue, or Monk, or whatever X/Genie 1, 3. or 6 progresses much easier than a [whatever] X/Hexblade 1, 3 or 6, if Charisma isn't your main bag. Leave Charisma at 13, ignore it entirely, and what have you gotten? Darkvision invocations etc., short rest spell slots for self-buffing, mobility, or exploration spells, bonus damage every round, flying... a bunch of melee-relevant stuff, that probably fits into your build pretty easily, rather than an attack stat you aren't using, a once/day ability, and a spooky ghost that dies in the first fight every day.
Sure but we are not discussing rogues here....its a warlock discussion compared to Genie.
So as you say...hexblade will come online much much sooner for full damage compared to Genie and that was the question asked so I wanted to keep it on topic.
Hexblade will not need a dip to fighter at all is the other point as they get the medium armor/shield and martial proficiency...so I am not sure why you would want to dip?
Genie would also need to max both CHA and DEX/STR to max damage from the Lifedrinker while the Hexblade will get CHA added twice right away at 12th.
Point buy/Standard array there is no way to max both by 12th level so they would behind in damage (again) until the next ASI.
Overall the Hexblade has big advantages when it comes to pure damage....but as I and others have mentioned you gain a lot of versatility with the other builds that you do not get with Hexblade for sure.
They have significant advantages and they come with significant costs. Even from a math perspective. You don't get to start out with medium armor as a hexblade. You have to purchase it or acquire it from loot or a hand me down. You don't get to start with a shield. Neither of those options are available as starting equipment on any warlock. If you want to start with it, you will have to choose gold and purchase those options and 50 gp is a significant cost. The other build can simply start with starting gear, take leather, upgrade to mage armor at 2, "upgrade" to studded leather or some sort of magic armor when it is more available.
A hexblade can't put anymore CON into a build than any other warlock. They are capped at 20 just like anyone else. They can have a higher CON and CHA earlier, but that only matters to the other warlock if they ALSO want CHA that early. If they don't, it's a null point. Both builds can easily have a 16 attack stat, 14 CON, and 14 non-attack stat DEX/CHA. It's only an advantage for non hexblades that also want to have higher CHA. That may have been the case between those two specific builds, but it isn't a requirement. The non Warlock doesn't need to put more into invocations for defense. I outlined that in my last post. When it makes a bigger difference is early when the offensive invocations aren't available and the utility ones are dependent on party composition. The hexblade is just as dependent on defensive invocations if they can't acquire the gear, and if they can acquire the gear, the non hexblade can acquire better gear, too. Perhaps not in specific instances, but generically speaking. The shield is a nice boost and Shield is lovely as well, but both of those can be achieved in other ways. Between pure warlocks, both are nice for melee, but neither is a prerequisite and can be offset through other circumstances. Both are better if the warlock wants to simply stand and fight as opposed to acting more like a skirmisher and both have their own costs. Sword and board makes spellcasting harder and every Shield cast is not used on Hex or another spell. The presence of Shield puts pressure on the player to keep a spell slot open in case it is needed.
The bonus damage per hit is only available on the cursed creature and makes it superior on sturdier enemies. The Genie also gets to add bonus damage, but it's only once per turn. However, it is available on every creature that they attack, not just the one that is cursed. If the creature that was cursed dies (say from another character decided to go nova and critting at the same time), moves out of attack range somehow, or otherwise becomes immune to damage, the hexblade doesn't get the bonus damage while they attack other creatures. The genie character does.
THP is nice, but a Fiendlock also gets that option and doesn't have to have the creature that they cursed be the one that dies. In fact, the creature doesn't have to even die, it just has to be reduced to 0 HP by the warlock. They can leave that creature alive but unconcious and the fiendlock still gets the THP. But they do have to be the one that reduces the creature to 0 HP, whereas the hexblade doesn't. Both have advantages and both have disadvantages. Neither matters if they are using another spell or feature that cares about the presence of specific THP, like Armor of Agathys. The THP angle is nice, but it eliminates options or reduces the importance of those THP feature if it doesn't get used.
These are all math options. Unlimited extra damage against a target that doesn't exist is zero extra damage. THP that doesn't get used is the same as zero THP. Better armor is only better if it is used and you can't use it if you don't have it. 0 AC is precisely the same as 100 AC if you are never attacked. The situations matter, the campaign will matter, and the party composition will matter. A white room hexblade pact of the blade is better than a white room non hexblade pact of the blade in melee combat, but the amount that those advantages actually matter will depend on a number of factors. The significance of those advantages are completely dependent on what exactly happens and what changes a player might make based on taking either route. It depends on what costs they are willing to pay to gain the benefits associated with the other options.
It's not just math that will be a factor, it's a question of where you want to apply your math to matter the most. Hexblade is the easiest subclass to build an effective melee warlock that isn't solely reliant on melee, particularly without multiclassing. It does a great job of multiclassing with characters that want to focus on Charisma and still be able to attack in Melee, whether that means being a social beast, whether that means having insane Paladin Auras, whether that means being more of a gishy character, or some combination of the three. It is the 1A of Warlock melee characters, but that doesn't mean that others can't be built to be a 1B. It doesn't mean that others aren't in a position to be as effective melee fighters in a slightly different role. And that is before considering other factors than just math.
Of course, a lot of this difference of opinion can be cleared up by defining what the parameters make up "a significant difference". If an average of .5 points of damage is enough to be significant (ie, I have to have the Greatsword because it gives me better damage than a Great Axe), then hexblade is definitely the option that you want. If significant is a lot closer to a few points of damage (ie, I'll go with the flail because it gives me the option to go with bludgeoning damage, the possibility of getting a [Tooltip Not Found] without changing much about my melee attacks, and I really like the idea of swinging around a ball and chain to smash someone, even if it costs me 2.5 points of damage), then it's not likely to make much difference.
My only point with the CON is they can afford to put more into it much earlier and even later as they pretty much just need to max CHA then can increase CON with the rest of their ASI.
Where as the Genie will need to max DEX/STR and CHA to get the most out of the Pact of Blade as Lifedrinker keys off CHA.
If you dump CHA early in the genie build you are worse off at 12th level if you want to take Lifedrinker. If you don't then thats fine but you will drop in damage comparisons pretty rapidly from your weapon compared to hexblade at that time.
This doesn't matter if you are going thematic play or you enjoy the versaility of the genie (which is a lot...the container is crazy good early on) but it is going to come at the cost of damage later on.
Again this is completely fine and as I have shown I myself went down this route but I understood what I was trading off for that change.
A level 1 Hexblade attacks for +5 to hit (charisma), and does d8+3 damage. A level 1 Genie attacks for +5 to hit (strength or dex), and does d8+3 damage, plus +2 once per turn. The Genie is literally "online" for higher damage right from level 1.
At level 4 with POB and Improved Pact Weapon, a Hexblade attacks for +7 to hit, and does d8+4+1 damage. A Genie attacks for +7 to hit, and does d8+4+1 damage, plus +2 once per turn. Genie still higher.
At level 8 with POB, Improved Pact Weapon, Thirsting Blade, a Hexblade attacks for +9 to hit twice, and does d8+5+1 twice. A Genie attacks for +9 to hit twice, and does d8+5+1 twice, and another +3 damage once/turn. Genie is still higher.
At level 12 with POB, Improved Pact Weapon, Thirsting Blade, and Lifedrinker, a Hexblade attacks for +10 to hit twice, and does d8+5+1+5 twice. A Genie attacks for +10 to hit twice, and does d8+5+1+4 twice, and another +4 damage once/turn. Genie is still higher.
And on, and on, and on. The Genie is always as much or more damage than the Hexblade, it does not "come online" earlier. The Hexblade can spike higher than the Genie on one opponent/day (or, one full combat/day after 14), but the Genie does more over the course of the day. The Hexblade is slightly more defensive earlier, with access to the medium armor and shields out the gate, but again... that's easily compensated for if the Genie is Dex-based, or if they have proficiencies from another race or class. If we're talking about melee attacks and melee damage, without moving the goalposts to also talk about spellcasting saves etc., the Genie is a little bit better, though they're similar. If we're talking about defense, Hexblade has a little higher AC and at mid levels, an ability to evade attacks, while the Genie has always-on resistance... Hex is probably a little better, but they're similar. If we're talking about spellcasting in a vacuum, Genie is definitely better, but if we're talking about spellcasting minor while still focusing on melee, Hexblade is a little better, until Genie starts bringing Charisma up in Tiers 3 and 4.
There are no big advantages here, just differences.
A level 1 Hexblade attacks for +5 to hit (charisma), and does d8+3 damage. A level 1 Genie attacks for +5 to hit (strength or dex), and does d8+3 damage, plus +2 once per turn. The Genie is literally "online" for higher damage right from level 1.
At level 4 with POB and Improved Pact Weapon, a Hexblade attacks for +7 to hit, and does d8+4+1 damage. A Genie attacks for +7 to hit, and does d8+4+1 damage, plus +2 once per turn. Genie still higher.
At level 8 with POB, Improved Pact Weapon, Thirsting Blade, a Hexblade attacks for +9 to hit twice, and does d8+5+1 twice. A Genie attacks for +9 to hit twice, and does d8+5+1 twice, and another +3 damage once/turn. Genie is still higher.
At level 12 with POB, Improved Pact Weapon, Thirsting Blade, and Lifedrinker, a Hexblade attacks for +10 to hit twice, and does d8+5+1+5 twice. A Genie attacks for +10 to hit twice, and does d8+5+1+4 twice, and another +4 damage once/turn. Genie is still higher.
And on, and on, and on. The Genie is always as much or more damage than the Hexblade, it does not "come online" earlier. The Hexblade can spike higher than the Genie on one opponent/day (or, one full combat/day after 14), but the Genie does more over the course of the day. The Hexblade is slightly more defensive earlier, with access to the medium armor and shields out the gate, but again... that's easily compensated for if the Genie is Dex-based, or if they have proficiencies from another race or class. If we're talking about melee attacks and melee damage, without moving the goalposts to also talk about spellcasting saves etc., the Genie is a little bit better, though they're similar. If we're talking about defense, Hexblade has a little higher AC and at mid levels, an ability to evade attacks, while the Genie has always-on resistance... Hex is probably a little better, but they're similar. If we're talking about spellcasting in a vacuum, Genie is definitely better, but if we're talking about spellcasting minor while still focusing on melee, Hexblade is a little better, until Genie starts bringing Charisma up in Tiers 3 and 4.
There are no big advantages here, just differences.
Level 1 doesnt really matter as they are both do not have pact of blade yet so its not really of benefit to either at that point I agree...but also means nothing for this particular discussion as its specifically related to Pact of Blade.
You are forgetting one big thing here.
A hexblade can use a STR based weapon for damage from level 3 on. Simply summon a glaive.
So your 1d8+4 can actually be a 2d6+4 which puts the hexblade firmly ahead.
Also if you use your level 4 ASI for PAM you can actually do 1d10+3+1 and then 1d4+3+1 which is even more.
So you are forgetting what the actual damage builds are for Hexblade.
Oh my god a Genie POB can summon the exact same glaive, but has an extra +Proficiency damage modifier that the Hexblade doesn't. Literally what are you talking about????
Oh my god a Genie POB can summon the exact same glaive, but has an extra +Proficiency damage modifier that the Hexblade doesn't. Literally what are you talking about????
They cannot use DEX with a glaive though....and if they use STR their AC will be very low.
This is why my build has a level of figther to get Heavy Armor.
The attack bonus for the CHA glaive will be better than a DEX warlock trying to use a glaive.
They have significant advantages and they come with significant costs. Even from a math perspective. You don't get to start out with medium armor as a hexblade. You have to purchase it or acquire it from loot or a hand me down. You don't get to start with a shield. Neither of those options are available as starting equipment on any warlock. If you want to start with it, you will have to choose gold and purchase those options and 50 gp is a significant cost. The other build can simply start with starting gear, take leather, upgrade to mage armor at 2, "upgrade" to studded leather or some sort of magic armor when it is more available.
A hexblade can't put anymore CON into a build than any other warlock. They are capped at 20 just like anyone else. They can have a higher CON and CHA earlier, but that only matters to the other warlock if they ALSO want CHA that early. If they don't, it's a null point. Both builds can easily have a 16 attack stat, 14 CON, and 14 non-attack stat DEX/CHA. It's only an advantage for non hexblades that also want to have higher CHA. That may have been the case between those two specific builds, but it isn't a requirement. The non Warlock doesn't need to put more into invocations for defense. I outlined that in my last post. When it makes a bigger difference is early when the offensive invocations aren't available and the utility ones are dependent on party composition. The hexblade is just as dependent on defensive invocations if they can't acquire the gear, and if they can acquire the gear, the non hexblade can acquire better gear, too. Perhaps not in specific instances, but generically speaking. The shield is a nice boost and Shield is lovely as well, but both of those can be achieved in other ways. Between pure warlocks, both are nice for melee, but neither is a prerequisite and can be offset through other circumstances. Both are better if the warlock wants to simply stand and fight as opposed to acting more like a skirmisher and both have their own costs. Sword and board makes spellcasting harder and every Shield cast is not used on Hex or another spell. The presence of Shield puts pressure on the player to keep a spell slot open in case it is needed.
The bonus damage per hit is only available on the cursed creature and makes it superior on sturdier enemies. The Genie also gets to add bonus damage, but it's only once per turn. However, it is available on every creature that they attack, not just the one that is cursed. If the creature that was cursed dies (say from another character decided to go nova and critting at the same time), moves out of attack range somehow, or otherwise becomes immune to damage, the hexblade doesn't get the bonus damage while they attack other creatures. The genie character does.
THP is nice, but a Fiendlock also gets that option and doesn't have to have the creature that they cursed be the one that dies. In fact, the creature doesn't have to even die, it just has to be reduced to 0 HP by the warlock. They can leave that creature alive but unconcious and the fiendlock still gets the THP. But they do have to be the one that reduces the creature to 0 HP, whereas the hexblade doesn't. Both have advantages and both have disadvantages. Neither matters if they are using another spell or feature that cares about the presence of specific THP, like Armor of Agathys. The THP angle is nice, but it eliminates options or reduces the importance of those THP feature if it doesn't get used.
These are all math options. Unlimited extra damage against a target that doesn't exist is zero extra damage. THP that doesn't get used is the same as zero THP. Better armor is only better if it is used and you can't use it if you don't have it. 0 AC is precisely the same as 100 AC if you are never attacked. The situations matter, the campaign will matter, and the party composition will matter. A white room hexblade pact of the blade is better than a white room non hexblade pact of the blade in melee combat, but the amount that those advantages actually matter will depend on a number of factors. The significance of those advantages are completely dependent on what exactly happens and what changes a player might make based on taking either route. It depends on what costs they are willing to pay to gain the benefits associated with the other options.
It's not just math that will be a factor, it's a question of where you want to apply your math to matter the most. Hexblade is the easiest subclass to build an effective melee warlock that isn't solely reliant on melee, particularly without multiclassing. It does a great job of multiclassing with characters that want to focus on Charisma and still be able to attack in Melee, whether that means being a social beast, whether that means having insane Paladin Auras, whether that means being more of a gishy character, or some combination of the three. It is the 1A of Warlock melee characters, but that doesn't mean that others can't be built to be a 1B. It doesn't mean that others aren't in a position to be as effective melee fighters in a slightly different role. And that is before considering other factors than just math.
Of course, a lot of this difference of opinion can be cleared up by defining what the parameters make up "a significant difference". If an average of .5 points of damage is enough to be significant (ie, I have to have the Greatsword because it gives me better damage than a Great Axe), then hexblade is definitely the option that you want. If significant is a lot closer to a few points of damage (ie, I'll go with the flail because it gives me the option to go with bludgeoning damage, the possibility of getting a [Tooltip Not Found] without changing much about my melee attacks, and I really like the idea of swinging around a ball and chain to smash someone, even if it costs me 2.5 points of damage), then it's not likely to make much difference.
My only point with the CON is they can afford to put more into it much earlier and even later as they pretty much just need to max CHA then can increase CON with the rest of their ASI.
Where as the Genie will need to max DEX/STR and CHA to get the most out of the Pact of Blade as Lifedrinker keys off CHA.
If you dump CHA early in the genie build you are worse off at 12th level if you want to take Lifedrinker. If you don't then thats fine but you will drop in damage comparisons pretty rapidly from your weapon compared to hexblade at that time.
This doesn't matter if you are going thematic play or you enjoy the versaility of the genie (which is a lot...the container is crazy good early on) but it is going to come at the cost of damage later on.
Again this is completely fine and as I have shown I myself went down this route but I understood what I was trading off for that change.
It also doesn't matter if you never get to warlock 12 for whatever reason. And if you do, then sure the CON comes into play an you trade a couple of HP for a couple of points of damage.
By 12, you can have Dex or Cha maxed at 20, have Con at 18, and the other stat at 15. You can go 20, 16, 17. There are quite a few ways that you can spend your 15, 14, and 13 from standard array, your racial stat bonuses, and your ASIs. The lifedrinker route will give you 3 less damage per attack with a 15 versus an 20, which can be traded for 12 HP at that point for each point of damage that you want to come up. And that only matters if you are taking hits and doesn't factor what support choice changes will be made by allies.
It doesn't matter if the campaign ends by then, or if you multiclass before that.
A Strength-based Genie can wield a Glaive as well, if not better, than a Hexblade can. A Dex-based Genie would not choose to wield a Glaive.
Your goalposts are slippery and hard to define. I showed you that for 1-handed damage, the Genie does more than the Hexblade at every level. Has your position actually been "2-handed Fighter/Hexblade POBs are the only viable 2-handed melee warlocks" all this time? Because that's a confusingly narrow thing to have been arguing about, and still probably isn't actually true.
Oh my god a Genie POB can summon the exact same glaive, but has an extra +Proficiency damage modifier that the Hexblade doesn't. Literally what are you talking about????
The difference here is that the genie has to go strength to do so, which won't help their AC or has to deal with lesser hit and damage bonuses or get heavy armor from somewhere. However, Optimus was assuming that the specific builds that they were referring to were common knowledge when they were defined in the thread, including no mention of PAM prior to this. Even the difference between a glaive and a rapier is only 1 point of damage on average and it gives up the AC boost from the shield to do so. 2d6 gains 2.5 points of average damage, which may or may not be a significant difference depending on who is making the judgment call on the cost of one build versus the other. Hexblade only really takes off when PAM or GWM are added to the mix, and then either has to delay maxing charisma to do so or go with one of two possible "races" to get a feat early. Neither were mentioned prior to post 28 that I can recall off hand.
Edit: Apparently, I missed more posts than I realized and the posted build did slip in. Haven't seen it yet to know if it had either feat.
A Strength-based Genie can wield a Glaive as well, if not better, than a Hexblade can. A Dex-based Genie would not choose to wield a Glaive.
Your goalposts are slippery and hard to define. I showed you that for 1-handed damage, the Genie does more than the Hexblade at every level. Has your position actually been "2-handed Fighter/Hexblade POBs are the only viable 2-handed melee warlocks" all this time? Because that's a confusingly narrow thing to have been arguing about, and still probably isn't actually true.
1. I never agreed to a DEX based comparison as the hexblade purposefully does better damage with 2 handed builds. Hence why I addressed it.
2. A STR based genie would be abysmally low on DEX or CON....they are way too MAD to not have at least one score at 12 or lower. The way to counter this would be 1 level fighter...which I fully agree with as I played this exact build for 9 months (see link above).
TBH we agree on a lot but when you say a hexblade is behind on damage I have to call it out as that is not at all true and if you do want to do the same amount of damage with the other patrons you do have to make a sacrifice that the hexblade does not....AC, level progress, CON....pick one and you will have to let it be low.
They have significant advantages and they come with significant costs. Even from a math perspective. You don't get to start out with medium armor as a hexblade. You have to purchase it or acquire it from loot or a hand me down. You don't get to start with a shield. Neither of those options are available as starting equipment on any warlock. If you want to start with it, you will have to choose gold and purchase those options and 50 gp is a significant cost. The other build can simply start with starting gear, take leather, upgrade to mage armor at 2, "upgrade" to studded leather or some sort of magic armor when it is more available.
A hexblade can't put anymore CON into a build than any other warlock. They are capped at 20 just like anyone else. They can have a higher CON and CHA earlier, but that only matters to the other warlock if they ALSO want CHA that early. If they don't, it's a null point. Both builds can easily have a 16 attack stat, 14 CON, and 14 non-attack stat DEX/CHA. It's only an advantage for non hexblades that also want to have higher CHA. That may have been the case between those two specific builds, but it isn't a requirement. The non Warlock doesn't need to put more into invocations for defense. I outlined that in my last post. When it makes a bigger difference is early when the offensive invocations aren't available and the utility ones are dependent on party composition. The hexblade is just as dependent on defensive invocations if they can't acquire the gear, and if they can acquire the gear, the non hexblade can acquire better gear, too. Perhaps not in specific instances, but generically speaking. The shield is a nice boost and Shield is lovely as well, but both of those can be achieved in other ways. Between pure warlocks, both are nice for melee, but neither is a prerequisite and can be offset through other circumstances. Both are better if the warlock wants to simply stand and fight as opposed to acting more like a skirmisher and both have their own costs. Sword and board makes spellcasting harder and every Shield cast is not used on Hex or another spell. The presence of Shield puts pressure on the player to keep a spell slot open in case it is needed.
The bonus damage per hit is only available on the cursed creature and makes it superior on sturdier enemies. The Genie also gets to add bonus damage, but it's only once per turn. However, it is available on every creature that they attack, not just the one that is cursed. If the creature that was cursed dies (say from another character decided to go nova and critting at the same time), moves out of attack range somehow, or otherwise becomes immune to damage, the hexblade doesn't get the bonus damage while they attack other creatures. The genie character does.
THP is nice, but a Fiendlock also gets that option and doesn't have to have the creature that they cursed be the one that dies. In fact, the creature doesn't have to even die, it just has to be reduced to 0 HP by the warlock. They can leave that creature alive but unconcious and the fiendlock still gets the THP. But they do have to be the one that reduces the creature to 0 HP, whereas the hexblade doesn't. Both have advantages and both have disadvantages. Neither matters if they are using another spell or feature that cares about the presence of specific THP, like Armor of Agathys. The THP angle is nice, but it eliminates options or reduces the importance of those THP feature if it doesn't get used.
These are all math options. Unlimited extra damage against a target that doesn't exist is zero extra damage. THP that doesn't get used is the same as zero THP. Better armor is only better if it is used and you can't use it if you don't have it. 0 AC is precisely the same as 100 AC if you are never attacked. The situations matter, the campaign will matter, and the party composition will matter. A white room hexblade pact of the blade is better than a white room non hexblade pact of the blade in melee combat, but the amount that those advantages actually matter will depend on a number of factors. The significance of those advantages are completely dependent on what exactly happens and what changes a player might make based on taking either route. It depends on what costs they are willing to pay to gain the benefits associated with the other options.
It's not just math that will be a factor, it's a question of where you want to apply your math to matter the most. Hexblade is the easiest subclass to build an effective melee warlock that isn't solely reliant on melee, particularly without multiclassing. It does a great job of multiclassing with characters that want to focus on Charisma and still be able to attack in Melee, whether that means being a social beast, whether that means having insane Paladin Auras, whether that means being more of a gishy character, or some combination of the three. It is the 1A of Warlock melee characters, but that doesn't mean that others can't be built to be a 1B. It doesn't mean that others aren't in a position to be as effective melee fighters in a slightly different role. And that is before considering other factors than just math.
Of course, a lot of this difference of opinion can be cleared up by defining what the parameters make up "a significant difference". If an average of .5 points of damage is enough to be significant (ie, I have to have the Greatsword because it gives me better damage than a Great Axe), then hexblade is definitely the option that you want. If significant is a lot closer to a few points of damage (ie, I'll go with the flail because it gives me the option to go with bludgeoning damage, the possibility of getting a [Tooltip Not Found] without changing much about my melee attacks, and I really like the idea of swinging around a ball and chain to smash someone, even if it costs me 2.5 points of damage), then it's not likely to make much difference.
My only point with the CON is they can afford to put more into it much earlier and even later as they pretty much just need to max CHA then can increase CON with the rest of their ASI.
Where as the Genie will need to max DEX/STR and CHA to get the most out of the Pact of Blade as Lifedrinker keys off CHA.
If you dump CHA early in the genie build you are worse off at 12th level if you want to take Lifedrinker. If you don't then thats fine but you will drop in damage comparisons pretty rapidly from your weapon compared to hexblade at that time.
This doesn't matter if you are going thematic play or you enjoy the versaility of the genie (which is a lot...the container is crazy good early on) but it is going to come at the cost of damage later on.
Again this is completely fine and as I have shown I myself went down this route but I understood what I was trading off for that change.
It also doesn't matter if you never get to warlock 12 for whatever reason. And if you do, then sure the CON comes into play an you trade a couple of HP for a couple of points of damage.
By 12, you can have Dex or Cha maxed at 20, have Con at 18, and the other stat at 15. You can go 20, 16, 17. There are quite a few ways that you can spend your 15, 14, and 13 from standard array, your racial stat bonuses, and your ASIs. The lifedrinker route will give you 3 less damage per attack with a 15 versus an 20, which can be traded for 12 HP at that point for each point of damage that you want to come up. And that only matters if you are taking hits and doesn't factor what support choice changes will be made by allies.
It doesn't matter if the campaign ends by then, or if you multiclass before that.
90% end by 10th level so for me I generally consider 1-10 as a realistic goal post for a build. 8th level builds in Genie and Hexblade will likely be mostly similar with the Genie coming out ahead with versatility and the Hexblade coming out ahead on damage.
Overall I love both builds and I think we both agree on that front.
So...nobody in this whole Mathlympics discussion has broached the idea that the Genie is kinda pretty much downright strictly better at using Blade cantrips?
Like...seriously. The whole "you gotta use Dexterity to attack!" thing is a wash, because oh noes I have to raise my Dexterity. Whatever shall I do with improvements to my super high value Stealth ability as well as my Acrobatics and Sleight of hand, alongside my critical Dexterity saving throw and my Initiative bonus. Yeah, Strength Bladelocks take it in the rectum, but Strength has been a rectum-ruiner waste of stat space on most builds since 5e was invented. No difference here. And for a Bladelock specializing in application of Green Flame or Booming blades, they only get one hit per turn anyways. No need to waste an Invocation on Thirsting Blade, leaves room for a utility option alongside IPW and/or Eldritch Smite. or, in turn, leaves room for a multiclass dip since Genie can better augment the single-hit cantrips. A Genie [X]/Swash 3, for example, can do Booming Blade nonsense par excellence with the flight speed Genies get at 6th, in an achievable nine levels of critter. Similar damage output to Thirsting Blade multistrikers, significantly improved mobility and skill usage at the cost of higher-level magic you're not generally using anyways because every gorram spell slot is burned on Eldritch Smite.
Srsly. I'd run a Genie 6/Swash 3 over a Hexblade 9 any day the DM let me, and damn the MADness.
So...nobody in this whole Mathlympics discussion has broached the idea that the Genie is kinda pretty much downright strictly better at using Blade cantrips?
Like...seriously. The whole "you gotta use Dexterity to attack!" thing is a wash, because oh noes I have to raise my Dexterity. Whatever shall I do with improvements to my super high value Stealth ability as well as my Acrobatics and Sleight of hand, alongside my critical Dexterity saving throw and my Initiative bonus. Yeah, Strength Bladelocks take it in the rectum, but Strength has been a rectum-ruiner waste of stat space on most builds since 5e was invented. No difference here. And for a Bladelock specializing in application of Green Flame or Booming blades, they only get one hit per turn anyways. No need to waste an Invocation on Thirsting Blade, leaves room for a utility option alongside IPW and/or Eldritch Smite. or, in turn, leaves room for a multiclass dip since Genie can better augment the single-hit cantrips. A Genie [X]/Swash 3, for example, can do Booming Blade nonsense par excellence with the flight speed Genies get at 6th, in an achievable nine levels of critter. Similar damage output to Thirsting Blade multistrikers, significantly improved mobility and skill usage at the cost of higher-level magic you're not generally using anyways because every gorram spell slot is burned on Eldritch Smite.
Srsly. I'd run a Genie 6/Swash 3 over a Hexblade 9 any day the DM let me, and damn the MADness.
Oh yeah if you want to get into MC builds then I agree there are a TON more options open for fun builds. I was mostly focused on the single classed options as that was the original intention.
Also I would avoid bladetrips most of the time anyway as they are pretty much moot at 5th level. I am advocating for a CHA glaive build for hexblade with PAM as my main comparing build to a single classed genie warlock with pact of blade and DEX.
Grime, is it your position that a... Fighter 1/Genie X needs to be compared against a Fighter 1/Hexblade X, building for PAM and GWM? Is that the build you have in mind to show that Hexblade is "better" at being a melee POB character than a Genie is?
They both have the same armor (plate). They both hit 18, and 20 in their attack stat at 4, then 8. They both can take PAM at 12, and GWM at 16 (or vice versa). They both can take Thirsting Blade, Improved Pact Weapon, Lifedrinker. The only difference damage wise is, Hexblade gets +PB to damage and 19-20 crit range on one enemy/long rest for all attacks, while Genie gets +PB to damage once per turn all day long. The Hexblade's attacks are the same or lower than the Genie's. Is the Hexblade more likely to have a 16 in Constitution and 15 in Strength, while the Genie has a 16 in Charisma and a 15 in Constitution? Yeah, I guess, but that's a very minor difference which is probably dependant on any number of other factors too, so whatever.
And, as Yurei pointed out, the Genie is flexible with other sorts of melee damage delivery (like the Rogue/Genie), that the Hexblade just doesn't really bring anything else to the table for.
I don't hate Hexblades. They're overplayed, but they're a good subclass! But they are not the only warlocks who can take POB, nor even the best at using it in every situation.
Oh my god a Genie POB can summon the exact same glaive, but has an extra +Proficiency damage modifier that the Hexblade doesn't. Literally what are you talking about????
The difference here is that the genie has to go strength to do so, which won't help their AC or has to deal with lesser hit and damage bonuses or get heavy armor from somewhere. However, Optimus was assuming that the specific builds that they were referring to were common knowledge when they were defined in the thread, including no mention of PAM prior to this. Even the difference between a glaive and a rapier is only 1 point of damage on average and it gives up the AC boost from the shield to do so. 2d6 gains 2.5 points of average damage, which may or may not be a significant difference depending on who is making the judgment call on the cost of one build versus the other. Hexblade only really takes off when PAM or GWM are added to the mix, and then either has to delay maxing charisma to do so or go with one of two possible "races" to get a feat early. Neither were mentioned prior to post 28 that I can recall off hand.
Edit: Apparently, I missed more posts than I realized and the posted build did slip in. Haven't seen it yet to know if it had either feat.
Darkness/Devil sight plus the GWM/PAM combo ends up being the go to to avoid maxing CHA but I know that wont work all the time for a lot of parties.
Grime, is it your position that a... Fighter 1/Genie X needs to be compared against a Fighter 1/Hexblade X, building for PAM and GWM? Is that the build you have in mind to show that Hexblade is "better" at being a melee POB character than a Genie is?
They both have the same armor (plate). They both hit 18, and 20 in their attack stat at 4, then 8. They both can take PAM at 12, and GWM at 16 (or vice versa). They both can take Thirsting Blade, Improved Pact Weapon, Lifedrinker. The only difference damage wise is, Hexblade gets +PB to damage and 19-20 crit range on one enemy/long rest for all attacks, while Genie gets +PB to damage once per turn all day long. The Hexblade's attacks are the same or lower than the Genie's. Is the Hexblade more likely to have a 16 in Constitution and 15 in Strength, while the Genie has a 16 in Charisma and a 15 in Constitution? Yeah, I guess, but that's a very minor difference which is probably dependant on any number of other factors too, so whatever.
And, as Yurei pointed out, the Genie is flexible with other sorts of melee damage delivery (like the Rogue/Genie), that the Hexblade just doesn't really bring anything else to the table for.
I don't hate Hexblades. They're overplayed, but they're a good subclass! But they are not the only warlocks who can take POB, nor even the best at using it in every situation.
No....I am saying Hexblade 8 vs Genie 7/ fighter 1 would be a very close comparison if you want to talk STR builds.
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yeah they are just better built for pact of blade with the ability to put more in CON, have less invocations for defense, and the bonus damage per hit with the curse. Not to mention the THP from taking something down.
The pluses add up to be pretty significant but still its not a huge deal overall if you are in it for more than the math for sure.
BTW here is my Non-Hexblade Celestial STR Pact of Blade build:
https://ddb.ac/characters/47162398/rbcokt
I ended up going 1 level fighter to get heavy armor as I wanted to go STR and use a greatsword for thematics.
Overall I feel they would be a very good Pact of Blade warlock as they get some Smite spells from the racial options and would be pretty much on par with a hexblade damage wise with about a 10-20% DPR drop...but a big boost to versatility with BA heals, extra cantrips, and some THP in another level.
Look, by 20, the Fighter/Hexblade (POB) and the Fighter/Genie (POB) can both have the same maximum to-hit and save DC. They can wear the same armor, have the same AC, the same hit points. The Hexblade had less feat pressure, so might have taken something fun like Inspiring Leader, while the Genie is more likely to have 20's in both Cha and Dex or Str. The Genie will do more damage more consistently, will be more mobile in combat, and will have more resistances. The Hexblade will do more spike damage to one enemy (or one combat) per long rest, will be tankier against attacks, and will have an edgelord pet. There's differences, but they're minor.
The demonstrable difference comes when we get back to talking "Warlock splash" with 13 or 14 Charisma, and not an excessive number of Warlock levels. A Hexblade is useless for that: they hand out weapon and armor proficiencies you already have, enable you to attack with a stat you don't want to use, provide you a once/long rest ability which has Charisma- and Warlock-level based bonuses, and their level 6 feature quickly becomes obsolete unless your Warlock levels progress. For being a class so commonly taken as a single 1-level splash, Hexblade actually does almost nothing for you other than switching attacks to Charisma. Meanwhile for a Genie, low Charisma doesn't impact their subclass features at all, and their level 6 feature provides a massive boon for melee characters, which progresses based on character level rather than Warlock level.
Does a pure Hexblade progress easier as a melee POB than a pure Genie? Sure. But a Rogue, or Monk, or whatever X/Genie 1, 3. or 6 progresses much easier than a [whatever] X/Hexblade 1, 3 or 6, if Charisma isn't your main bag. Leave Charisma at 13, ignore it entirely, and what have you gotten? Darkvision invocations etc., short rest spell slots for self-buffing, mobility, or exploration spells, bonus damage every round, flying... a bunch of melee-relevant stuff, that probably fits into your build pretty easily, rather than an attack stat you aren't using, a once/day ability, and a spooky ghost that dies in the first fight every day.
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They have significant advantages and they come with significant costs. Even from a math perspective. You don't get to start out with medium armor as a hexblade. You have to purchase it or acquire it from loot or a hand me down. You don't get to start with a shield. Neither of those options are available as starting equipment on any warlock. If you want to start with it, you will have to choose gold and purchase those options and 50 gp is a significant cost. The other build can simply start with starting gear, take leather, upgrade to mage armor at 2, "upgrade" to studded leather or some sort of magic armor when it is more available.
A hexblade can't put anymore CON into a build than any other warlock. They are capped at 20 just like anyone else. They can have a higher CON and CHA earlier, but that only matters to the other warlock if they ALSO want CHA that early. If they don't, it's a null point. Both builds can easily have a 16 attack stat, 14 CON, and 14 non-attack stat DEX/CHA. It's only an advantage for non hexblades that also want to have higher CHA. That may have been the case between those two specific builds, but it isn't a requirement. The non Warlock doesn't need to put more into invocations for defense. I outlined that in my last post. When it makes a bigger difference is early when the offensive invocations aren't available and the utility ones are dependent on party composition. The hexblade is just as dependent on defensive invocations if they can't acquire the gear, and if they can acquire the gear, the non hexblade can acquire better gear, too. Perhaps not in specific instances, but generically speaking. The shield is a nice boost and Shield is lovely as well, but both of those can be achieved in other ways. Between pure warlocks, both are nice for melee, but neither is a prerequisite and can be offset through other circumstances. Both are better if the warlock wants to simply stand and fight as opposed to acting more like a skirmisher and both have their own costs. Sword and board makes spellcasting harder and every Shield cast is not used on Hex or another spell. The presence of Shield puts pressure on the player to keep a spell slot open in case it is needed.
The bonus damage per hit is only available on the cursed creature and makes it superior on sturdier enemies. The Genie also gets to add bonus damage, but it's only once per turn. However, it is available on every creature that they attack, not just the one that is cursed. If the creature that was cursed dies (say from another character decided to go nova and critting at the same time), moves out of attack range somehow, or otherwise becomes immune to damage, the hexblade doesn't get the bonus damage while they attack other creatures. The genie character does.
THP is nice, but a Fiendlock also gets that option and doesn't have to have the creature that they cursed be the one that dies. In fact, the creature doesn't have to even die, it just has to be reduced to 0 HP by the warlock. They can leave that creature alive but unconcious and the fiendlock still gets the THP. But they do have to be the one that reduces the creature to 0 HP, whereas the hexblade doesn't. Both have advantages and both have disadvantages. Neither matters if they are using another spell or feature that cares about the presence of specific THP, like Armor of Agathys. The THP angle is nice, but it eliminates options or reduces the importance of those THP feature if it doesn't get used.
These are all math options. Unlimited extra damage against a target that doesn't exist is zero extra damage. THP that doesn't get used is the same as zero THP. Better armor is only better if it is used and you can't use it if you don't have it. 0 AC is precisely the same as 100 AC if you are never attacked. The situations matter, the campaign will matter, and the party composition will matter. A white room hexblade pact of the blade is better than a white room non hexblade pact of the blade in melee combat, but the amount that those advantages actually matter will depend on a number of factors. The significance of those advantages are completely dependent on what exactly happens and what changes a player might make based on taking either route. It depends on what costs they are willing to pay to gain the benefits associated with the other options.
It's not just math that will be a factor, it's a question of where you want to apply your math to matter the most. Hexblade is the easiest subclass to build an effective melee warlock that isn't solely reliant on melee, particularly without multiclassing. It does a great job of multiclassing with characters that want to focus on Charisma and still be able to attack in Melee, whether that means being a social beast, whether that means having insane Paladin Auras, whether that means being more of a gishy character, or some combination of the three. It is the 1A of Warlock melee characters, but that doesn't mean that others can't be built to be a 1B. It doesn't mean that others aren't in a position to be as effective melee fighters in a slightly different role. And that is before considering other factors than just math.
Of course, a lot of this difference of opinion can be cleared up by defining what the parameters make up "a significant difference". If an average of .5 points of damage is enough to be significant (ie, I have to have the Greatsword because it gives me better damage than a Great Axe), then hexblade is definitely the option that you want. If significant is a lot closer to a few points of damage (ie, I'll go with the flail because it gives me the option to go with bludgeoning damage, the possibility of getting a [Tooltip Not Found] without changing much about my melee attacks, and I really like the idea of swinging around a ball and chain to smash someone, even if it costs me 2.5 points of damage), then it's not likely to make much difference.
Sure but we are not discussing rogues here....its a warlock discussion compared to Genie.
So as you say...hexblade will come online much much sooner for full damage compared to Genie and that was the question asked so I wanted to keep it on topic.
Hexblade will not need a dip to fighter at all is the other point as they get the medium armor/shield and martial proficiency...so I am not sure why you would want to dip?
Genie would also need to max both CHA and DEX/STR to max damage from the Lifedrinker while the Hexblade will get CHA added twice right away at 12th.
Point buy/Standard array there is no way to max both by 12th level so they would behind in damage (again) until the next ASI.
Overall the Hexblade has big advantages when it comes to pure damage....but as I and others have mentioned you gain a lot of versatility with the other builds that you do not get with Hexblade for sure.
My only point with the CON is they can afford to put more into it much earlier and even later as they pretty much just need to max CHA then can increase CON with the rest of their ASI.
Where as the Genie will need to max DEX/STR and CHA to get the most out of the Pact of Blade as Lifedrinker keys off CHA.
If you dump CHA early in the genie build you are worse off at 12th level if you want to take Lifedrinker. If you don't then thats fine but you will drop in damage comparisons pretty rapidly from your weapon compared to hexblade at that time.
This doesn't matter if you are going thematic play or you enjoy the versaility of the genie (which is a lot...the container is crazy good early on) but it is going to come at the cost of damage later on.
Again this is completely fine and as I have shown I myself went down this route but I understood what I was trading off for that change.
A level 1 Hexblade attacks for +5 to hit (charisma), and does d8+3 damage. A level 1 Genie attacks for +5 to hit (strength or dex), and does d8+3 damage, plus +2 once per turn. The Genie is literally "online" for higher damage right from level 1.
At level 4 with POB and Improved Pact Weapon, a Hexblade attacks for +7 to hit, and does d8+4+1 damage. A Genie attacks for +7 to hit, and does d8+4+1 damage, plus +2 once per turn. Genie still higher.
At level 8 with POB, Improved Pact Weapon, Thirsting Blade, a Hexblade attacks for +9 to hit twice, and does d8+5+1 twice. A Genie attacks for +9 to hit twice, and does d8+5+1 twice, and another +3 damage once/turn. Genie is still higher.
At level 12 with POB, Improved Pact Weapon, Thirsting Blade, and Lifedrinker, a Hexblade attacks for +10 to hit twice, and does d8+5+1+5 twice. A Genie attacks for +10 to hit twice, and does d8+5+1+4 twice, and another +4 damage once/turn. Genie is still higher.
And on, and on, and on. The Genie is always as much or more damage than the Hexblade, it does not "come online" earlier. The Hexblade can spike higher than the Genie on one opponent/day (or, one full combat/day after 14), but the Genie does more over the course of the day. The Hexblade is slightly more defensive earlier, with access to the medium armor and shields out the gate, but again... that's easily compensated for if the Genie is Dex-based, or if they have proficiencies from another race or class. If we're talking about melee attacks and melee damage, without moving the goalposts to also talk about spellcasting saves etc., the Genie is a little bit better, though they're similar. If we're talking about defense, Hexblade has a little higher AC and at mid levels, an ability to evade attacks, while the Genie has always-on resistance... Hex is probably a little better, but they're similar. If we're talking about spellcasting in a vacuum, Genie is definitely better, but if we're talking about spellcasting minor while still focusing on melee, Hexblade is a little better, until Genie starts bringing Charisma up in Tiers 3 and 4.
There are no big advantages here, just differences.
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Level 1 doesnt really matter as they are both do not have pact of blade yet so its not really of benefit to either at that point I agree...but also means nothing for this particular discussion as its specifically related to Pact of Blade.
You are forgetting one big thing here.
A hexblade can use a STR based weapon for damage from level 3 on. Simply summon a glaive.
So your 1d8+4 can actually be a 2d6+4 which puts the hexblade firmly ahead.
Also if you use your level 4 ASI for PAM you can actually do 1d10+3+1 and then 1d4+3+1 which is even more.
So you are forgetting what the actual damage builds are for Hexblade.
Oh my god a Genie POB can summon the exact same glaive, but has an extra +Proficiency damage modifier that the Hexblade doesn't. Literally what are you talking about????
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They cannot use DEX with a glaive though....and if they use STR their AC will be very low.
This is why my build has a level of figther to get Heavy Armor.
The attack bonus for the CHA glaive will be better than a DEX warlock trying to use a glaive.
It also doesn't matter if you never get to warlock 12 for whatever reason. And if you do, then sure the CON comes into play an you trade a couple of HP for a couple of points of damage.
By 12, you can have Dex or Cha maxed at 20, have Con at 18, and the other stat at 15. You can go 20, 16, 17. There are quite a few ways that you can spend your 15, 14, and 13 from standard array, your racial stat bonuses, and your ASIs. The lifedrinker route will give you 3 less damage per attack with a 15 versus an 20, which can be traded for 12 HP at that point for each point of damage that you want to come up. And that only matters if you are taking hits and doesn't factor what support choice changes will be made by allies.
It doesn't matter if the campaign ends by then, or if you multiclass before that.
A Strength-based Genie can wield a Glaive as well, if not better, than a Hexblade can. A Dex-based Genie would not choose to wield a Glaive.
Your goalposts are slippery and hard to define. I showed you that for 1-handed damage, the Genie does more than the Hexblade at every level. Has your position actually been "2-handed Fighter/Hexblade POBs are the only viable 2-handed melee warlocks" all this time? Because that's a confusingly narrow thing to have been arguing about, and still probably isn't actually true.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
The difference here is that the genie has to go strength to do so, which won't help their AC or has to deal with lesser hit and damage bonuses or get heavy armor from somewhere. However, Optimus was assuming that the specific builds that they were referring to were common knowledge when they were defined in the thread, including no mention of PAM prior to this. Even the difference between a glaive and a rapier is only 1 point of damage on average and it gives up the AC boost from the shield to do so. 2d6 gains 2.5 points of average damage, which may or may not be a significant difference depending on who is making the judgment call on the cost of one build versus the other. Hexblade only really takes off when PAM or GWM are added to the mix, and then either has to delay maxing charisma to do so or go with one of two possible "races" to get a feat early. Neither were mentioned prior to post 28 that I can recall off hand.
Edit: Apparently, I missed more posts than I realized and the posted build did slip in. Haven't seen it yet to know if it had either feat.
1. I never agreed to a DEX based comparison as the hexblade purposefully does better damage with 2 handed builds. Hence why I addressed it.
2. A STR based genie would be abysmally low on DEX or CON....they are way too MAD to not have at least one score at 12 or lower. The way to counter this would be 1 level fighter...which I fully agree with as I played this exact build for 9 months (see link above).
TBH we agree on a lot but when you say a hexblade is behind on damage I have to call it out as that is not at all true and if you do want to do the same amount of damage with the other patrons you do have to make a sacrifice that the hexblade does not....AC, level progress, CON....pick one and you will have to let it be low.
90% end by 10th level so for me I generally consider 1-10 as a realistic goal post for a build. 8th level builds in Genie and Hexblade will likely be mostly similar with the Genie coming out ahead with versatility and the Hexblade coming out ahead on damage.
Overall I love both builds and I think we both agree on that front.
So...nobody in this whole Mathlympics discussion has broached the idea that the Genie is kinda pretty much downright strictly better at using Blade cantrips?
Like...seriously. The whole "you gotta use Dexterity to attack!" thing is a wash, because oh noes I have to raise my Dexterity. Whatever shall I do with improvements to my super high value Stealth ability as well as my Acrobatics and Sleight of hand, alongside my critical Dexterity saving throw and my Initiative bonus. Yeah, Strength Bladelocks take it in the rectum, but Strength has been a rectum-ruiner waste of stat space on most builds since 5e was invented. No difference here. And for a Bladelock specializing in application of Green Flame or Booming blades, they only get one hit per turn anyways. No need to waste an Invocation on Thirsting Blade, leaves room for a utility option alongside IPW and/or Eldritch Smite. or, in turn, leaves room for a multiclass dip since Genie can better augment the single-hit cantrips. A Genie [X]/Swash 3, for example, can do Booming Blade nonsense par excellence with the flight speed Genies get at 6th, in an achievable nine levels of critter. Similar damage output to Thirsting Blade multistrikers, significantly improved mobility and skill usage at the cost of higher-level magic you're not generally using anyways because every gorram spell slot is burned on Eldritch Smite.
Srsly. I'd run a Genie 6/Swash 3 over a Hexblade 9 any day the DM let me, and damn the MADness.
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Oh yeah if you want to get into MC builds then I agree there are a TON more options open for fun builds. I was mostly focused on the single classed options as that was the original intention.
Also I would avoid bladetrips most of the time anyway as they are pretty much moot at 5th level. I am advocating for a CHA glaive build for hexblade with PAM as my main comparing build to a single classed genie warlock with pact of blade and DEX.
Grime, is it your position that a... Fighter 1/Genie X needs to be compared against a Fighter 1/Hexblade X, building for PAM and GWM? Is that the build you have in mind to show that Hexblade is "better" at being a melee POB character than a Genie is?
They both have the same armor (plate). They both hit 18, and 20 in their attack stat at 4, then 8. They both can take PAM at 12, and GWM at 16 (or vice versa). They both can take Thirsting Blade, Improved Pact Weapon, Lifedrinker. The only difference damage wise is, Hexblade gets +PB to damage and 19-20 crit range on one enemy/long rest for all attacks, while Genie gets +PB to damage once per turn all day long. The Hexblade's attacks are the same or lower than the Genie's. Is the Hexblade more likely to have a 16 in Constitution and 15 in Strength, while the Genie has a 16 in Charisma and a 15 in Constitution? Yeah, I guess, but that's a very minor difference which is probably dependant on any number of other factors too, so whatever.
And, as Yurei pointed out, the Genie is flexible with other sorts of melee damage delivery (like the Rogue/Genie), that the Hexblade just doesn't really bring anything else to the table for.
I don't hate Hexblades. They're overplayed, but they're a good subclass! But they are not the only warlocks who can take POB, nor even the best at using it in every situation.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Darkness/Devil sight plus the GWM/PAM combo ends up being the go to to avoid maxing CHA but I know that wont work all the time for a lot of parties.
No....I am saying Hexblade 8 vs Genie 7/ fighter 1 would be a very close comparison if you want to talk STR builds.