Huh, I'd never though about Melee Celestial with green flame blade... that's a nifty idea too! They even get THP at 10, though that isn't quite as good as Hexblade's defense trick or Genie's (bludgeoning) resistance.
I think that the takeaway here is that melee warlocks in general can be fun and creative, we don't really need to beat to death which one is or isn't better than a Hexblade.
Huh, I'd never though about Melee Celestial with green flame blade... that's a nifty idea too! They even get THP at 10, though that isn't quite as good as Hexblade's defense trick or Genie's (bludgeoning) resistance.
I think that the takeaway here is that melee warlocks in general can be fun and creative, we don't really need to beat to death which one is or isn't better than a Hexblade.
Cantrips irrelevant, spells irrelevant. Five Invocations, assumed to be Agonizing Blast, IPW, Thirsting Blade, Eldritch Smite, and some other thing the Hexlock doesn't care about or use. Uses a Glaive for Polearm Muenster, so 1d10+6 twice at a +10 to hit (5 CHA, 4 Prof, +1 IPW). It also swings for 1d4+6 at the same +10 for a bonus action from Polearm Muenster. Averages ~32 damage a round with glaive attacks, an additional 12 if it can use its reaction. It can add proficiency to damage with attacks once per rest against a single target, and that target has a rougher time hitting the Hexlock.
Genie, assuming Standard Array, Half-Elf because NO NEED FOR FEAT NONSENSE, Lv. 10 8 | 15 (16) | 13 (14) | 10 | 12 | 14 (16). 16AC w/Mage Armor DEX +2 (ASI, lv. 4) (17AC) CHA +2 (ASI, lv. 8) -OR- Mobile
Cantrips include Booming Blade. Spells irrelevant. Five Invocations, assumed to be Agonizing Blast, IPW, Eldritch Smite, Armor of Shadows, and whatever else the Genie finds amusing. Uses a Rapier for 1d8+5 at a +9 to hit (4 DX, 4 Prof, +1 IPW), and adds 1d8+4 additional damage on a hit. ~18 damage a round, with another 9 if the Booming Blade rider triggers. Since we're assuming the Polearm Muenster guy gets his reaction (not at all a guarantee outside once or twice a fight), we can assume the Booming Blade Genie gets her rider at least once.
Why the hell would the Genielock get Booming Blade but the Hexlock wouldn't? This gets stranger and stranger. Why are we not only assigning specific races, we're assigning different specific races not tailored to the respective Warlock's abilities - on top of which, we're using the inane Standard Array? Why did you insist on taking Eldritch Smite, then didn't use it for anything?
This is big weird. If we're deliberately picking different races for the express purpose of competing with each other, the Hexlock's going to be a Tiefling 10/10 times so it can also Fly. If Flight is a non-issue, other low-hanging fruit includes being a Half-Elf or Eladrin for Elven Accuracy and an excellent statline, or mountain dwarf, for being Cha 20 Con 18 at L10. Definitely never a variant human - they're Tasha's Custom but worse.
Point is, Hexlocks are better at Pact of the Blade Warlocking. If you want to be a Genielock, nothing wrong with that at all - but you'll be way better off with Eldritch Blast, so just lean harder into that.
Human variant was for the early feat. The only way that human variant is worse than custom lineage is that it can't choose to put both stat increases in the same stat (but the custom can't split it between two) and the vhuman can't choose darkvision, which is a non factor since both builds left open an invocation for Devil's sight. Both get the skill in this case. Oh and I guess you can choose to be small, which would gimp you with a glaive, force you to take a spear or quarterstaff to lose reach and an average of 1 point of damage but keep PAM or make attacks with disadvantage. Not the biggest deal in the world, but worth noting.
The difference between a 17 and a 16 at level one is exactly nil, unless you go with a feat that also gives you a boost to that stat. Assuming PAM, that's a non factor. Make the necessary tweaks to move PAM to level 4 or 8 and get your preferred race and it won't change a great deal at level 10.
Booming Blade was not chosen for the hexlock because 1d8 is less than 1d10 so 2d8 is less than 2d10. Booming Blade is being used to replace Thirsting Blade. If you have thirsting Blade, why are you generally doing 1d10 + 1d8 damage (plus modifiers) until 11th when you can do 1d10 + 1d10? The cantrips weren't identified so PAMlock can take it, too, for when they're feeling frisky.
As for standard array, it's simply there to keep things more even. It's fairly standard practice in discussions like this, at least on this site.
The genie build picked half-elf to show that the feat wasn't necessary. You can take the plus one from con off or switch the stats on that build around to be +1 each and add a half that gives charisma (which would be the +1 for charisma or what gets it to +2). Or leave it at half elf and make the other build a half elf. Again, it's not likely to matter much by level 10.
Eldritch smite is twice per short rest max until 11th level when it gets to thrice per short rest. That's 4.5 damage plus 4.5 more per level of the slot. At 10th, that's a maximum of 27 average damage, 54 on a crit. Twice per short rest. That both builds took. In other words, it's a null point but both builds would take it because pact of the blade.
The point of making each build the way that it was built was to say that a PAMlock can deal superior damage with a feat than a genielock at 10th even with a superior the genie lock having superior stats thanks to the feat but that had more to do with the feat than the rest of the build.
The fact of the matter is that any build that enables PAM, GWM, Sharpshooter or Crossbow Expert will be great at damage, but that doesn't have as much to do with the subclass, class, or any other feature as it does with those feats. That's why all of the high damage builds are typically some variant of how do I max my ability to hit and get 1 or two of those feats as early as possible. Once they come off the board, the competitive balance is much closer. And the hexblade GWM PAMlock is probably the most thematic warlock around (selling your soul to the devil) while being the most bland (isn't this like every other build that we talk about like this? No, it uses charisma to attack.)
I love genie bladelock! I am currently playing djinni bladepact, and it is a ton of fun. My average damage is almost the exact same as our party's other striker, an astral monk, so I am quite satisfied.
I decided to dump charisma, so I could focus on dex and con for survivability. Genie could make a deadly glass cannon if it goes Str, cha, and PAM OR dex, cha, and sharpshooter, but I'd rather keep my survivability and fantastic concentration saves thank-you.
Let the 12th level Hexbladepacts enjoy swinging their 2d10+1d4+72 polearm(PAM, GWM, Improved pact weapon, thirsting blade and hexblade's curse). I'll enjoy shooting my 2d8+36 longbow(sharpshooter, improved pact weapon).
I love genie bladelock! I am currently playing djinni bladepact, and it is a ton of fun. I decided to dump charisma, so I could focus on dex and con for survivability. Genie could make a deadly glass cannon if it goes Str, cha, and PAM or dex, cha, and sharpshooter, but I'd rather keep my survivability and fantastic concentration saves thank-you.
Let the 12th level Hexbladepacts enjoy swinging their 2d10+1d4+72 polearm(PAM, GWM, Improved pact weapon, thirsting blade and hexblade's curse). I'll enjoy shooting my 2d8+36 longbow(sharpshooter, improved pact weapon).
squints
Wouldn't you rather have crossbow expert than sharpshooter? Let's do the math.
Longbow, DEX 5, PB 4 (level 12), Sharpshooter, Improved Pact Weapon, Thirsting Blade, Genie's Wrath, assuming Sharpshooter on both shots and the recommended AC in the DMG for what you should be facing, so base accuracy 65% before modification:
For each of those, the second term is the odds of you hitting at least once times your wrath damage. First term is total damage, including crits. The DMG recommends an accuracy of 13/20 at every level except 9. Sharpshooter cutting your accuracy and your rate of fire due to choosing only one of the two feats radically reduces your chances of delivering the wrath damage, naturally.
Ok hold on Quindraco, you may have just blown my mind. Does crossbow expert allow you to attack with your pact weapon, a single hand crossbow, twice as an action and once as a bonus action? If so, SIGN ME UP! I always assumed you had to use two hand crossbows, in which case the offhand would not have proficiency as a genielock. I had never even considered it as a pact weapon, because you can't summon one using improved pact weapon!
As for the accuracy bit, I don't know how to do the correct average damage calculation including accuracy, but I know that is important, especially with sharpshooter. I always assume in my head that a warlock using GWM or sharpshooter is concentrating on a permanent-advantage granting spell, like shadow of moil, darkness, or greater invisibility.
I love genie bladelock! I am currently playing djinni bladepact, and it is a ton of fun. I decided to dump charisma, so I could focus on dex and con for survivability. Genie could make a deadly glass cannon if it goes Str, cha, and PAM or dex, cha, and sharpshooter, but I'd rather keep my survivability and fantastic concentration saves thank-you.
Let the 12th level Hexbladepacts enjoy swinging their 2d10+1d4+72 polearm(PAM, GWM, Improved pact weapon, thirsting blade and hexblade's curse). I'll enjoy shooting my 2d8+36 longbow(sharpshooter, improved pact weapon).
squints
Wouldn't you rather have crossbow expert than sharpshooter? Let's do the math.
Longbow, DEX 5, PB 4 (level 12), Sharpshooter, Improved Pact Weapon, Thirsting Blade, Genie's Wrath, assuming Sharpshooter on both shots and the recommended AC in the DMG for what you should be facing, so base accuracy 65% before modification:
For each of those, the second term is the odds of you hitting at least once times your wrath damage. First term is total damage, including crits. The DMG recommends an accuracy of 13/20 at every level except 9. Sharpshooter cutting your accuracy and your rate of fire due to choosing only one of the two feats radically reduces your chances of delivering the wrath damage, naturally.
Can you use handcrossbow with pact of Blade? Wouldn't you have to find a magic crossbow?
Yeah I just noticed that stipulation in pact of the blade as well. I wouldn't just have to find (and buy/steal) a hand crossbow, I'd have to find and afford a magic hand crossbow. Definitely a long-term goal!
Hexblade benefits (attack with Charisma) always apply to any PoB weapon, but the reverse isn't true and Pact of the Blade benefits (counts as proficient, counts as magical, can be formed/dismissed, other benefits like bonus damage or extra attacks or use as a spell focus with certain invocations) do not apply to any Hexblade weapon unless that weapon is a PoB weapon.
Hexblade weapons can be anything that isn't two-handed, while PoB can be any melee weapon that lacks special, or later after Improved Pact Weapon, also longbows, shortbows, heavy crossbows, or light crossbows. Hand Crossbows? Never are a POB weapon, even if they ARE a Hexblade weapon.
But we aren't even talking about Hexblades, we're talking about Genie POB. Still, hand crossbows are not POB weapons, because they are not melee weapons, or longbows, shortbows, heavy crossbows, or light crossbows.
That means that Crossbow Expert bonus action attack is not particularly relevent, unless you're wielding a non-POB hand crossbow in your offhand.
Unless.... you take the (very arguable) interpretation that any magic weapon is POB-eligible, even if its base weapon type is not.
I wouldn't say that "...any magic weapon is PoB-eligible" is arguable.
RAW it works: "You can transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon by performing a special ritual while you hold the weapon."
RAI it also works, as confirmed in the sage advice compendium.
Nevertheless, it can be difficult to find a magic hand crossbow *unless* you have a forge cleric or artificer in the party. Maaaybe I can convince the old granny alchemist to infuse a hand crossbow for me... maybe XD
That sentence is being quoted by you to stand for "you can transform any magic weapon into your pact weapon," which is definitely not what it actually says on paper. "You can transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon" reads perfectly intuitive as a clarifiation that magic daggers are just as eligible for POB as mundane daggers, without reading an unwritten "any" in there to open up handcrossbows.
I'm aware that JC reads it the "any" way, but it certainly leads to bizarre conclusions... While you need to take an invocation to use a POB light crossbow, any magic light crossbow also works without the invocation? Why would that be intended? POB is either balanced around weapon types, in which case +1 weapons should follow the same rules as mundane weapons (which is how the RAW language reads to me), or it isn't, in which case there shouldn't be any restriction on weapon types at all in the first place and its just a bunch of bullcrap red tape for its own sake.
Ok hold on Quindraco, you may have just blown my mind. Does crossbow expert allow you to attack with your pact weapon, a single hand crossbow, twice as an action and once as a bonus action? If so, SIGN ME UP! I always assumed you had to use two hand crossbows, in which case the offhand would not have proficiency as a genielock. I had never even considered it as a pact weapon, because you can't summon one using improved pact weapon!
As for the accuracy bit, I don't know how to do the correct average damage calculation including accuracy, but I know that is important, especially with sharpshooter. I always assume in my head that a warlock using GWM or sharpshooter is concentrating on a permanent-advantage granting spell, like shadow of moil, darkness, or greater invisibility.
Ah, I did the accuracy math without advantage, super advantage, or halfling luck. All of those would have an impact, for sure.
For simplicity, I did assume you owned a hand crossbow of warning or a +1 hand crossbow for your pact weapon. Sorry for not being clear. You can use crossbow expert with only one hand crossbow. Unfortunately, without an artificer, you can't hand crossbow and shield, and dual hand crossbows is as useless as their light keyword. With an artificer, any weapon you like is a pact weapon - bonus points if you pact weapon a net, throw it at someone, and then demand wrath damage from your GM (please post a photo of their facial expression). Incidentally, Sharpshooter + Crossbow Expert will mean you don't have disadvantage on nets at any range.
That sentence is being quoted by you to stand for "you can transform any magic weapon into your pact weapon," which is definitely not what it actually says on paper. "You can transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon" reads perfectly intuitive as a clarifiation that magic daggers are just as eligible for POB as mundane daggers, without reading an unwritten "any" in there to open up handcrossbows.
I'm aware that JC reads it the "any" way, but it certainly leads to bizarre conclusions... While you need to take an invocation to use a POB light crossbow, any magic light crossbow also works without the invocation? Why would that be intended? POB is either balanced around weapon types, in which case +1 weapons should follow the same rules as mundane weapons (which is how the RAW language reads to me), or it isn't, in which case there shouldn't be any restriction on weapon types at all in the first place and its just a bunch of bullcrap red tape for its own sake.
You can create those weapons at will with Improved Pact of the Blade and they are all +1 weapons....were as the handcrossbow you have to find a magical crossbow and spend time to make it your pact weapon. One way the rules let you have it immediately with no run around while the other relies on your DM being on board with you getting a magic crossbow....which if they let you take the CBE feat and DONT let you find one I find that incredibly odd.
Overall the Improved Pact Weapon gives you several +1 weapons so you have some variety in what you can summon. Overall thanks to 5e's poor design around weapons and there is no real difference between weapons that matters much unfortunately. Its mostly damage and the ability to use range and ....that's about it.
Its more an indictment of the state of 5e weapons than the design of the Pact IMO. If weapons actually had a reason to use one vs. the other (Maces prone on a crit, whips can trip as an attack but do no damage, etc...) then it would be a vastly more interesting option to actually create different weapons via Pact of the Blade.
Instead you get 1 weapon and stick with it forever and the ability to create any weapon is sadly overlooked.
Now more than ever given their accelerated content schedule, I'm hoping we get a Womley's Wondrous Weapons book or something that at least gives us weapon feats or some other mode of specialization. It's a fairly obvious splatbook just waiting to be written.
The D&D Playerbase - y'know, the nebulous, anomalous blob monster with infinite slapping hands, infinite yapping mouths, and not one single neuron to its name - has consistently decried the idea of weapon-specific feats, weapon-specific abilities, or anything else that forces them to invest the slightest, tiniest, remotest little bit of actual brainpower into martial combat beyond "I hit it with my hittin' stick again."
I do not even slightly understand why, given the existence of things like Cheesebow Expert, Polearm Muenster, and Gouda Weapon Master, but any suggestion that individual weapons have any real merit or distinction to them is generally met with fierce resistance by The Playerbase, who believes that 5e is still far too complicated and would be better if all of the game's rules fit on a single three-by-five index card in thirty-six point font.
I don't think you'll find any examples of the one person who represents that loud playerbase consistently, its different folks being loud at the end of each edition cycle.
I think at this stage of 5E, a lot of people are restless for what 6E might have to offer, but I don't really hear a consensus about WHAT should change (other than, better editing and more consistent use/definition of terms, because this "write in natural language which different people interpret different ways" style clearly isn't working). I think a lot of people would be open to more weapon style feats, Piercer/Slasher/Bludgeoner and the fluff they wrote about Battlemaster seem to really be telegraphing that martial combat styles is something on the horizon that they want to develop more. Cantrips are in a great place in 5E, and it feels like there's a real potential to make weapon types work in a similar way, where basic attacks with each weapon have unique properties, but have damage that scales with tier. If that sounds like 4E.... yes, 4E was awesome, and the only reason people hated it was because it wasn't 2020 yet and thus there wasn't a dndbeyond sheet manager or Roll20 virtual tabletop to support its (very technical and battlemap-dependent) combat.
Remember: D&D is more that raw damage and AC. Focusing on that is just plain Power Game. And if that's what you and your DM have in mind, go for it! You can clearly break down D&D to a raw mathematic equation. But...
D&D is so much more than that. Gust of Wind can be fun in so many ways. But its dmg output is zero. Charm person or Friends likewise have no dmg output. But if your mission is investigation can make all the difference. The game is far more nuanced that combat effectives and 'optimization'. Sure there are build and classes that don't have the same output. Heck there are some that are just plain broken (Ranger, we are all looking at you). But the game is SO much more that "Pact of the Blade is ONLY for Hexblades". If that's your only goal than go to it. But don't try and say its the ONLY way for everyone.
Look, as a DMs we can overcome ANY build you make. The PC's power in any 'maxed' build it totally an illusion. We can can easily assembler monsters, villains, traps, and scenarios that will TPK you with ease. The control of players is an illusion. The flip side is true as well... We can craft a challenging and fun adventure for any rolled character. And a fun story as well. You rolled all 12s? Not a problem. You took a Cha of 14 as your Warlock stat? No worries. The game will still be of appropriate challenge and very enjoyable.
So offer advice based on fun factor. Offer advice if there is a truly horrible concept (I want to be a dagger stabbing Warlock who doesn't cast spells... and even then...) But don't try and make it sound like there is only one 'right' way to play a Class or a class combo. It never is, and it never was, a thing.
If you are really passionate about about a build, then say "Hey, have you thought about X and Y!? I've found it really fun" Trying to prove D&D as a math equation is really not what most people want out of a game. Because, again, your math and you damage and defense... it's all an illusion that really means nothing. (Unless it does in your game, in which case have fun in your game, and leave other games to the rest of us).
So if you love the concept of a Genie Pact of the Blade combo, where your Efreeti master deems you worthy of his falchion with rings in it that trails lines of fire (just for cosmetic effect... for now) go have FUN! Talk with your DM about power level and 'optimization'. The rest of the math, its just for show. Doesn't really matter. Only fun.
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Remember there are Rules as Written (RAW), Rules as Intended (RAI), and Rules as Fun (RAF). There's some great RAW, RAI, and RAF here... please check in with your DM to determine how they want to adjudicate the RAW/RAI/RAF for your game.
Just gonna throw this out there for the added damage debate of Genie versus Hexblade pact of the blade... Genie's at level 14 can have access to Tenser's Transformation and with Eldritch Mind and a Con/Dex focus that could potentially be an added 2d12 per hit for 10 minutes of combat and will be harder to break that concentration, ... especially since they can still give themselves flying... still have all three slots for eldritch smiting + whatever wep they choose for dex with advantage on all attacks+ genies wrath+ whatever is in Cha for lifedrinker. Plus if you really wanted to get into the semantics could also be wearing medium armor of their choice for that time...Love me that limited wish ability. Probably better uses than tensers transformation but still a nice add on
The limited wish is nice, but 1 per 1d4 rests is rough. Genie warlocks are the class who can conquer a planet the fastest, but they need to be level 17 to reach the point where if a deity doesn't start paying attention they're going to have a real problem.
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Huh, I'd never though about Melee Celestial with green flame blade... that's a nifty idea too! They even get THP at 10, though that isn't quite as good as Hexblade's defense trick or Genie's (bludgeoning) resistance.
I think that the takeaway here is that melee warlocks in general can be fun and creative, we don't really need to beat to death which one is or isn't better than a Hexblade.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Yup!
Fair is fair!
Human variant was for the early feat. The only way that human variant is worse than custom lineage is that it can't choose to put both stat increases in the same stat (but the custom can't split it between two) and the vhuman can't choose darkvision, which is a non factor since both builds left open an invocation for Devil's sight. Both get the skill in this case. Oh and I guess you can choose to be small, which would gimp you with a glaive, force you to take a spear or quarterstaff to lose reach and an average of 1 point of damage but keep PAM or make attacks with disadvantage. Not the biggest deal in the world, but worth noting.
The difference between a 17 and a 16 at level one is exactly nil, unless you go with a feat that also gives you a boost to that stat. Assuming PAM, that's a non factor. Make the necessary tweaks to move PAM to level 4 or 8 and get your preferred race and it won't change a great deal at level 10.
Booming Blade was not chosen for the hexlock because 1d8 is less than 1d10 so 2d8 is less than 2d10. Booming Blade is being used to replace Thirsting Blade. If you have thirsting Blade, why are you generally doing 1d10 + 1d8 damage (plus modifiers) until 11th when you can do 1d10 + 1d10? The cantrips weren't identified so PAMlock can take it, too, for when they're feeling frisky.
As for standard array, it's simply there to keep things more even. It's fairly standard practice in discussions like this, at least on this site.
The genie build picked half-elf to show that the feat wasn't necessary. You can take the plus one from con off or switch the stats on that build around to be +1 each and add a half that gives charisma (which would be the +1 for charisma or what gets it to +2). Or leave it at half elf and make the other build a half elf. Again, it's not likely to matter much by level 10.
Eldritch smite is twice per short rest max until 11th level when it gets to thrice per short rest. That's 4.5 damage plus 4.5 more per level of the slot. At 10th, that's a maximum of 27 average damage, 54 on a crit. Twice per short rest. That both builds took. In other words, it's a null point but both builds would take it because pact of the blade.
The point of making each build the way that it was built was to say that a PAMlock can deal superior damage with a feat than a genielock at 10th even with a superior the genie lock having superior stats thanks to the feat but that had more to do with the feat than the rest of the build.
The fact of the matter is that any build that enables PAM, GWM, Sharpshooter or Crossbow Expert will be great at damage, but that doesn't have as much to do with the subclass, class, or any other feature as it does with those feats. That's why all of the high damage builds are typically some variant of how do I max my ability to hit and get 1 or two of those feats as early as possible. Once they come off the board, the competitive balance is much closer. And the hexblade GWM PAMlock is probably the most thematic warlock around (selling your soul to the devil) while being the most bland (isn't this like every other build that we talk about like this? No, it uses charisma to attack.)
I love genie bladelock! I am currently playing djinni bladepact, and it is a ton of fun. My average damage is almost the exact same as our party's other striker, an astral monk, so I am quite satisfied.
I decided to dump charisma, so I could focus on dex and con for survivability. Genie could make a deadly glass cannon if it goes Str, cha, and PAM OR dex, cha, and sharpshooter, but I'd rather keep my survivability and fantastic concentration saves thank-you.
Let the 12th level Hexbladepacts enjoy swinging their 2d10+1d4+72 polearm(PAM, GWM, Improved pact weapon, thirsting blade and hexblade's curse). I'll enjoy shooting my 2d8+36 longbow(sharpshooter, improved pact weapon).
squints
Wouldn't you rather have crossbow expert than sharpshooter? Let's do the math.
Longbow, DEX 5, PB 4 (level 12), Sharpshooter, Improved Pact Weapon, Thirsting Blade, Genie's Wrath, assuming Sharpshooter on both shots and the recommended AC in the DMG for what you should be facing, so base accuracy 65% before modification:
9/20*2*(1d8*(1+1/9)+5+10+1) + (1-(1-9/20)^2)*4 = 21.69 (48.2 ignoring accuracy)
Hand Crossbow, DEX 5, PB 4, Crossbow Expert, Thirsting Blade, Improved Pact Weapon:
14/20*3*(1d6*(1+1/14)+5+1) + (1-(1-14/20)^3)*4 = 24.37 (34.81 ignoring accuracy)
Yes, thought so.
For each of those, the second term is the odds of you hitting at least once times your wrath damage. First term is total damage, including crits. The DMG recommends an accuracy of 13/20 at every level except 9. Sharpshooter cutting your accuracy and your rate of fire due to choosing only one of the two feats radically reduces your chances of delivering the wrath damage, naturally.
Ok hold on Quindraco, you may have just blown my mind. Does crossbow expert allow you to attack with your pact weapon, a single hand crossbow, twice as an action and once as a bonus action? If so, SIGN ME UP! I always assumed you had to use two hand crossbows, in which case the offhand would not have proficiency as a genielock. I had never even considered it as a pact weapon, because you can't summon one using improved pact weapon!
As for the accuracy bit, I don't know how to do the correct average damage calculation including accuracy, but I know that is important, especially with sharpshooter. I always assume in my head that a warlock using GWM or sharpshooter is concentrating on a permanent-advantage granting spell, like shadow of moil, darkness, or greater invisibility.
Can you use handcrossbow with pact of Blade? Wouldn't you have to find a magic crossbow?
Yeah I just noticed that stipulation in pact of the blade as well. I wouldn't just have to find (and buy/steal) a hand crossbow, I'd have to find and afford a magic hand crossbow. Definitely a long-term goal!
Hexblade benefits (attack with Charisma) always apply to any PoB weapon, but the reverse isn't true and Pact of the Blade benefits (counts as proficient, counts as magical, can be formed/dismissed, other benefits like bonus damage or extra attacks or use as a spell focus with certain invocations) do not apply to any Hexblade weapon unless that weapon is a PoB weapon.
Hexblade weapons can be anything that isn't two-handed, while PoB can be any melee weapon that lacks special, or later after Improved Pact Weapon, also longbows, shortbows, heavy crossbows, or light crossbows. Hand Crossbows? Never are a POB weapon, even if they ARE a Hexblade weapon.
But we aren't even talking about Hexblades, we're talking about Genie POB. Still, hand crossbows are not POB weapons, because they are not melee weapons, or longbows, shortbows, heavy crossbows, or light crossbows.
That means that Crossbow Expert bonus action attack is not particularly relevent, unless you're wielding a non-POB hand crossbow in your offhand.
Unless.... you take the (very arguable) interpretation that any magic weapon is POB-eligible, even if its base weapon type is not.
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I wouldn't say that "...any magic weapon is PoB-eligible" is arguable.
RAW it works: "You can transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon by performing a special ritual while you hold the weapon."
RAI it also works, as confirmed in the sage advice compendium.
Nevertheless, it can be difficult to find a magic hand crossbow *unless* you have a forge cleric or artificer in the party. Maaaybe I can convince the old granny alchemist to infuse a hand crossbow for me... maybe XD
That sentence is being quoted by you to stand for "you can transform any magic weapon into your pact weapon," which is definitely not what it actually says on paper. "You can transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon" reads perfectly intuitive as a clarifiation that magic daggers are just as eligible for POB as mundane daggers, without reading an unwritten "any" in there to open up handcrossbows.
I'm aware that JC reads it the "any" way, but it certainly leads to bizarre conclusions... While you need to take an invocation to use a POB light crossbow, any magic light crossbow also works without the invocation? Why would that be intended? POB is either balanced around weapon types, in which case +1 weapons should follow the same rules as mundane weapons (which is how the RAW language reads to me), or it isn't, in which case there shouldn't be any restriction on weapon types at all in the first place and its just a bunch of bullcrap red tape for its own sake.
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Ah, I did the accuracy math without advantage, super advantage, or halfling luck. All of those would have an impact, for sure.
For simplicity, I did assume you owned a hand crossbow of warning or a +1 hand crossbow for your pact weapon. Sorry for not being clear. You can use crossbow expert with only one hand crossbow. Unfortunately, without an artificer, you can't hand crossbow and shield, and dual hand crossbows is as useless as their light keyword. With an artificer, any weapon you like is a pact weapon - bonus points if you pact weapon a net, throw it at someone, and then demand wrath damage from your GM (please post a photo of their facial expression). Incidentally, Sharpshooter + Crossbow Expert will mean you don't have disadvantage on nets at any range.
You can create those weapons at will with Improved Pact of the Blade and they are all +1 weapons....were as the handcrossbow you have to find a magical crossbow and spend time to make it your pact weapon. One way the rules let you have it immediately with no run around while the other relies on your DM being on board with you getting a magic crossbow....which if they let you take the CBE feat and DONT let you find one I find that incredibly odd.
Overall the Improved Pact Weapon gives you several +1 weapons so you have some variety in what you can summon. Overall thanks to 5e's poor design around weapons and there is no real difference between weapons that matters much unfortunately. Its mostly damage and the ability to use range and ....that's about it.
Its more an indictment of the state of 5e weapons than the design of the Pact IMO. If weapons actually had a reason to use one vs. the other (Maces prone on a crit, whips can trip as an attack but do no damage, etc...) then it would be a vastly more interesting option to actually create different weapons via Pact of the Blade.
Instead you get 1 weapon and stick with it forever and the ability to create any weapon is sadly overlooked.
Now more than ever given their accelerated content schedule, I'm hoping we get a Womley's Wondrous Weapons book or something that at least gives us weapon feats or some other mode of specialization. It's a fairly obvious splatbook just waiting to be written.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
The D&D Playerbase - y'know, the nebulous, anomalous blob monster with infinite slapping hands, infinite yapping mouths, and not one single neuron to its name - has consistently decried the idea of weapon-specific feats, weapon-specific abilities, or anything else that forces them to invest the slightest, tiniest, remotest little bit of actual brainpower into martial combat beyond "I hit it with my hittin' stick again."
I do not even slightly understand why, given the existence of things like Cheesebow Expert, Polearm Muenster, and Gouda Weapon Master, but any suggestion that individual weapons have any real merit or distinction to them is generally met with fierce resistance by The Playerbase, who believes that 5e is still far too complicated and would be better if all of the game's rules fit on a single three-by-five index card in thirty-six point font.
Please do not contact or message me.
Yeah I wish there was more to do with weapons outside of "I attack" and slightly different dice.
I don't think you'll find any examples of the one person who represents that loud playerbase consistently, its different folks being loud at the end of each edition cycle.
I think at this stage of 5E, a lot of people are restless for what 6E might have to offer, but I don't really hear a consensus about WHAT should change (other than, better editing and more consistent use/definition of terms, because this "write in natural language which different people interpret different ways" style clearly isn't working). I think a lot of people would be open to more weapon style feats, Piercer/Slasher/Bludgeoner and the fluff they wrote about Battlemaster seem to really be telegraphing that martial combat styles is something on the horizon that they want to develop more. Cantrips are in a great place in 5E, and it feels like there's a real potential to make weapon types work in a similar way, where basic attacks with each weapon have unique properties, but have damage that scales with tier. If that sounds like 4E.... yes, 4E was awesome, and the only reason people hated it was because it wasn't 2020 yet and thus there wasn't a dndbeyond sheet manager or Roll20 virtual tabletop to support its (very technical and battlemap-dependent) combat.
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Remember: D&D is more that raw damage and AC. Focusing on that is just plain Power Game. And if that's what you and your DM have in mind, go for it! You can clearly break down D&D to a raw mathematic equation. But...
D&D is so much more than that. Gust of Wind can be fun in so many ways. But its dmg output is zero. Charm person or Friends likewise have no dmg output. But if your mission is investigation can make all the difference. The game is far more nuanced that combat effectives and 'optimization'. Sure there are build and classes that don't have the same output. Heck there are some that are just plain broken (Ranger, we are all looking at you). But the game is SO much more that "Pact of the Blade is ONLY for Hexblades". If that's your only goal than go to it. But don't try and say its the ONLY way for everyone.
Look, as a DMs we can overcome ANY build you make. The PC's power in any 'maxed' build it totally an illusion. We can can easily assembler monsters, villains, traps, and scenarios that will TPK you with ease. The control of players is an illusion. The flip side is true as well... We can craft a challenging and fun adventure for any rolled character. And a fun story as well. You rolled all 12s? Not a problem. You took a Cha of 14 as your Warlock stat? No worries. The game will still be of appropriate challenge and very enjoyable.
So offer advice based on fun factor. Offer advice if there is a truly horrible concept (I want to be a dagger stabbing Warlock who doesn't cast spells... and even then...) But don't try and make it sound like there is only one 'right' way to play a Class or a class combo. It never is, and it never was, a thing.
If you are really passionate about about a build, then say "Hey, have you thought about X and Y!? I've found it really fun" Trying to prove D&D as a math equation is really not what most people want out of a game. Because, again, your math and you damage and defense... it's all an illusion that really means nothing. (Unless it does in your game, in which case have fun in your game, and leave other games to the rest of us).
So if you love the concept of a Genie Pact of the Blade combo, where your Efreeti master deems you worthy of his falchion with rings in it that trails lines of fire (just for cosmetic effect... for now) go have FUN! Talk with your DM about power level and 'optimization'. The rest of the math, its just for show. Doesn't really matter. Only fun.
Remember there are Rules as Written (RAW), Rules as Intended (RAI), and Rules as Fun (RAF). There's some great RAW, RAI, and RAF here... please check in with your DM to determine how they want to adjudicate the RAW/RAI/RAF for your game.
Just gonna throw this out there for the added damage debate of Genie versus Hexblade pact of the blade... Genie's at level 14 can have access to Tenser's Transformation and with Eldritch Mind and a Con/Dex focus that could potentially be an added 2d12 per hit for 10 minutes of combat and will be harder to break that concentration, ... especially since they can still give themselves flying... still have all three slots for eldritch smiting + whatever wep they choose for dex with advantage on all attacks+ genies wrath+ whatever is in Cha for lifedrinker. Plus if you really wanted to get into the semantics could also be wearing medium armor of their choice for that time...Love me that limited wish ability. Probably better uses than tensers transformation but still a nice add on
The limited wish is nice, but 1 per 1d4 rests is rough. Genie warlocks are the class who can conquer a planet the fastest, but they need to be level 17 to reach the point where if a deity doesn't start paying attention they're going to have a real problem.