Haven't played DnD in many years since 3.5 a good 10 years ago and I'm currently playing in my first 5E adventure. We're playing Curse of Strahd and are currently level 4 with a party of 5:
1. Half orc Barbarian (Path of Wild Magic)
2. Rock Gnome Artificer (Battle Smith)
3. Human Rogue (Swashbuckler)
4. Warforged Mystic (don't know the subclass)
5. Myself - Custom Lineage Paladin of Conquest 3/Hexblade 1 with the Haunted One background.
We rolled for stats and I got pretty good rolls:
STR 13/DEX 12/CON 16/INT 11/WIS 14/CHA 17(+2 from race)
My 1st lvl feat was a refluffed Polearm Master into Blade Master to let me use it sword/board style.
I was trying to build my character as a tank/support and avoid the nova build shenanigans as much as possible since we are not lacking in the DPS department but we are sorely lacking in support/casting options. My current goal is to grab a charisma half feat next level (pal 4), war caster to be extra sticky with booming blade on AoOs on the next asi (pal 8) and reach 3rd level paladin spells (pal 9/hex 1) by the end of Curse of Strahd.
This module is a sort of training/introduction to 5E for all of us, including our DM. He is planning to transition our characters into his own custom campaign after Curse of Strahd which will (supposedly) go up to level 20.
The only other things I am relatively certain of is the next few feats, 3rd and 4th ASI I was aiming for Shield Master and Tough respectively.
I have considered a few paths moving forward while keeping the supportive tank role in mind:
Option 1: Pal 9/Hex 2/Divine Soul 9 or Pal 13/Hex 2/Divine Soul 5 - still undecided on the split
This obviously grants me more spell slots including options to upcast spells with, support spells and, most importantly, metamagic for quickened and twinned. The only spells I would grab from the new spell list are healing and support spells with a few notable exceptions that would make sense thematically (such as spirit guardians).
Option 2: Pal 19/Hex 1
The main lure here is the 5th level pally spells and the 30 feet auras but i'm not even certain we'll ever get there and it feels so very far away. I also lose out on many support options from the "SorCleric" spell list, get less slots to use them my spells in general and lose out on metamagic for quickened/twinned support spells that I do have. I do eventually get an extra ASI I don't really need and could use for something like Alert or making my Con 18 or whatever.
Option 3: Pal 17/Hex 3 or Pal 13/Hex 7 - again uncertain for the split but would grab pact of chain Sprite with investment of the chain master
This one loses out on the auras and metamagic options in exchange for a smaller number of decent leveled short rest spell slots, nice utility and RP potential with the sprite familiar (Hey listen!) and the poisoned debuff on a DC 19 feels pretty strong if nothing else. It should be noted that I'm not a huge fan of most of the Warlock spell list based on the tank/support concept. Not many things I want in there except stuff that already overlaps with my Paladin spell list which I could save precious prepared slots for.
Option 4: Pal 13/Hex 3/Fighter (Battle Master) 4
This one trades spellcasting utility for martial utility in the form of maneuvers + an extra fighting style and the amazing action surge. I wouldn't really be able to grab any maneuvers that require a saving throw due to poor str/dex though unless I find some magic item that boosts my Str but there are a few notable tanky/tactical options to choose from.
As you can see, I'm kind of hit by choice paralysis at this point and despite the fact that I don't really need to consider my options until the end of Curse of Strahd is true, I'd rather be prepared ahead of time and start incorporating it in the character's role play as soon as possible.
So what do you think is the better option for the tank/support-type character concept I am trying to pull with our party composition? Anything else that would fit better that I have not considered?
For the record, I already considered different Bard and Rogue subclasses but nothing that seemed to fit thematically AND mechanically. Considering my character's backstory, I don't see him singing or playing music or something like that, just saying but I'm open to suggestions!
Why obsess over 3rd level Paladin spells? Depends on what you have in mind, but your Option 1 includes Sorc levels. An odd number of Pal levels mixed with any Spellcasting class will impede your slot progression.
Not sure how your feat works - is it just Polearm Master, but you've functionally traded using it with a Spear for using it with a Longsword? That plus your other plans suggests your primary use for slots will be Divine Smite, moreso than L3 Paladin spells.
What the hell is a Mystic? I can't tell if you're all the party has for serious healing. If you are, Divine Sorcerer is a very credible source of healing magic.
Hey! Thanks for the reply. For the 3rd level paladin spells, it was both for the Fear oath spell which my aura is so dependant on as well as to ease the progression. I did consider stopping at Pal 7 but I really need that ASI for War Caster ASAP (delayed up to Character Level 13 at the earliest) and stopping at Pal 8 delays any access to 3rd level spells up until character level 14 at the earliest (Pal 8/Hex 1/Sorc 5) which I felt was too far. Sure, at level 20, pal 8/hex 1-2/sorc 10-11 is probably more powerful. But I'm trying to consider the progression all the way up there!
Yes, Polearm Master is basically unchanged except I'm using it with a longsword instead of a spear just because. Honestly, if I could have grabbed War Caster at level 1, I would have. But I started as a Paladin so I could not and Sentinel felt redundant with the Aura of Conquest + War Caster/Booming Blade combo.
Mystic is from UA (https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UAMystic3.pdf), its a pure psionic "caster" but that does not actually use spell slots so yes, my Paladin is the only source of healing until the Battle Smith's Steel Defender gets Arcane Jolt at level 9 (only a 2d6/5 times per long rest).
3rd level Paladin spells has many things I liked such as:
Aura of Vitality
Crusader's Mantle
Dispel Magic
Elemental Weapon
Revivify
Spirit Shroud
Oath: Fear
Oath: Bestow Curse
I know that several of these overlap with options I'd also get from 5th level of Sorcerer but I felt waiting until character level 14-15 (Pal 8/Hex 1-2/DS 5) was way too far off and I'm worried it'll prove troublesome from level 9 onwards with only access to 2nd level spells.
Here's an option: Twilight Cleric. Your wisdom isn't great, but that's fine, because your party doesn't need you casting attack spells or debuffs, it needs you casting party support. Twilight Clerics like wading into the middle of a fight, because they have auras that buff themselves and allies within 30 feet. Their Channel Divinity can help alleviate you throwing around AOE fears that might occasionally catch your allies, like Fear.
It's frustrating that Fear isn't on the Cleric spell list, because it really seems to be the only reason you're going to Paladin 9 instead of Paladin 7. Consider: is Fear really going to open up many opportunities to inflict Frightened that Cause Fear, Wrathful Smite, and your Conquering Presence don't already have covered? Maybe, maybe not... Consider also that Summon Shadowspawn and Summon Undead (Ghostly) are spells you can pick up as a Warlock 5, which are potential alertnative Frightened inflictors to Fear. Some of your builds already contemplated taking Hex to 2 or 3... not that much further to get 5? And Warlock 5 gets you Fear as well, so there's no need for Paladin 9... .unless your party's playstyle will actually benefit from the ten-foot Aura of Courage you get at 10 (and I really could see how it would, with the Rogue and Barbarian flanking you on either side in combat while you lock down one or two enemies around you.
You're in a unique situation, building your Paladin to be more about party support than control than making melee attacks themself. Unique situations call for unique builds.Maybe:
Hexblade 1/Conquest 4, Shadow Touched (+1 Charisma) for Invisibility and Cause Fear once/long rest for free? You already have Cause Fear available as a Warlock spell, but this seems like something you'll be casting a lot until Fear, so Shadow Touched could be worth it. Charisma-based attacks and spells are at max to-hit and DC, good.
Hexblade 2/Conquest 4/Twilight 2: A second warlock pact slot. Temporary invocations don't matter, maybe Agonizing Blast and Eldritch Sight, or whatever. Shared darkvision with the Warforged and the Human for an hour once/day. Aura of dim light (good enough for them to fight in) once/short rest, which also buffs THP for everyone in it, and lets them recover from charmed or frightened taking them out of fights. TONS of first and second level spell slots and two first level pact slots, though still only first level spells, to use either Cause Fear, Wrathful Smite, or Bless as the encounter dictates. Other spell slots are for healing or smiting. Guidance cantrip, Spare the Dying, etc.
Hexblade 4/Conquest 4/Twilight 4: ASI (+2 Charisma)... No point being built around fear if you aren't maximizing your chance for it to work, and it Warlock and Paladin spells and features that'll be doing that heavy lifting, cleric spells are just for buffing and less likely to care about ability score. Inspiring Leader too, because 17 THP is a big help for your healing-light party. Pact of the Tome, because your party lacks a ritual caster (and Clerics are poor at it even though they technically can), and swap out one of your invocations for Book of Ancient Secrets. Probably just take some utility cantrips like Message, Minor Illusion, etc... you probably already have Booming Blade and Eldritch Blast from your first Warlock level already, so no need to pretend you'll ever use a different attack cantrip.... unless Mind Sliver, to help keep an enemy Frightened for longer? Second level pact slots, max second level cleric spells, but there's some good ones like Silence, Lesser Restoration, and Warding Bond that you're likely to use. Up to third-level slots, for upcasting Cause Fear to hit several enemies at once.
At this point, I think you probably have "enough" spell slots to properly support and heal your party, and can think about which of three focuses you want to move into: tanking, support, or control.
If it's support, take more levels of Paladin and Cleric. You want at least Cleric 6 or 8, and Paladin at least 6 or 10, but probably do want both. Just remember that Cleric spells aren't for using on enemies, your DC sucks, so I'd say Hex 4/Conquest 6/Twilight 10 might be your build here, to maximize multiclass caster slots, but be discerning towards your spell preparation. Chef really ain't a bad Feat, to load anyone's pockets up with treats who doesn't already have a lot of competing bonus actions, or who often gets in HP problems.
If it's control, take more levels of Warlock and Paladin. You want Paladin 7, but Warlock is your path towards Fear, Summon Shadowspawn, or other aggressive enemy-cc spells. Remember, you can use spell slots to cast Warlock spells, so you don't need to chase the Pact Slot/Pact Slot Level progression table aggressively, but you do need to learn these spells as Warlock spells. Warlock 9 does give you a very powerful support invocation in Gift of the Protectors, so Hexblade 9/Conquest 7/Twilight 4 wouldn't be a terrible build to shoot for. You probably will get enough stickiness out of Warcaster (use it to cast Cause Fear?) that your don't even really need Sentinel.
If it's tanking/melee that you want to lean into, just leave both Hexblade and Twilight alone for a while. You don't get much past Paladin 10 other than a feat, so I'd suggest bringing either Hexblade up to 6 (Specter, third level slots, and a third invocation), or Twilight up to 6 (two Channel Divinity's, more spell slots for smiting and healing, flying to get where you need to be). Again, I think that Warcaster can actually do most of what Sentinel would normally do, but up to you which you prefer.
Hello! Thanks for taking the time to write all this. I'm going to try to go through everything as best I can.
I'm definitely going to need time to analyze all the options and look it over as possibilities moving on though, I had not actually considered any of the Cleric subclasses at all due to Wis and since Divine Soul could get them but I realize there must be some pretty nice abilities in there, Twilight included, so I'll go check that out. Thanks for that.
As for Fear, its the "no saves" past the first one when cast that was very alluring to me and the cone shouldn't be too difficult to aim away from friendlies. It'd be even easier with Careful metamagic if absolutely necessary and if I go the Sorc route. I'm reconsidering Twinned vs Careful due to stuff like Careful + Web and the high SP cost of Twinned. Sorc does get Fear so I could do Pal 8/Hex 1/Sorc 5, but again, I'm delaying it up until character level 14 which is way too far for my taste.
Cause Fear is annoying because they get a free save (no action required) every turn, same as my Conquering Presence Channel Divinity option though that one doesn't cost an action to use at least. Wrathful Smite is my go to 1st-level option and it is very nice since it only allows an enemy to repeat the save by using up their action. However, I can't keep Wrathful Smite up on multiple enemies and I can't break concentration on the effect to cast another fear effect (save for Channel Divinity).
If I catch them with the Fear spell inside my aura, they are pretty much disabled for the fight since they don't get a new save as long as I'm in line of sight. Though, 10 feet isn't very large admittedly. It also lets me target multiple enemies and practically becomes a save or suck spellI though I would probably need to go up to Pal 18 though if I really want to abuse the aura which doesn't let me grab any other class obviously.
I haven't abused fear much yet since I need that 7th level Aura of Conquest to matter at all or I might as well have used a different Oath. I also need that next ASI for War Caster ASAP as well so I'm gunning to it so up until Pal 8/Hex 1 for sure. Paladin levels 4 through 8 are thus considered my highest priority right now for 1st ASI for CHA 20, Extra Attack, Aura of Prot, Aura of Conquest, 2nd ASI. So yeah, I don't see myself MCing at all before Pal 8/Hex 1 at the very earliest.
I had initially considered Pal 8/Hex 1/Sorc 11 as "optimal" for level 20 but the progression to 3rd level spells taking so much longer killed it for me. The extra 1 level to Pal 9 for 3rd level Paladin spells feels like it is mandatory for decent progression and usability from character level 10 to 14. Pal 7/Hex 1/fullcaster 5 means I delay both the 2nd ASI and the 3rd level spells by 3 levels and I'm worried it'll drag down the team. Curse of Strahd also ends at character level 9-10 from what our DM told us so I wouldn't get those spells until after we're done the module and I fear (hah!) I would drag the team down if I don't grab those ASAP.
So maybe something like Conquest 9/Hex 1/Twilight 10 to get up to 5th level spells and Divine Intervention with the progression from here on being Pal 3/Hex 1 -> Pal 9/Hex 1 -> Pal 9/Hex 1/Twilight 10. Or maybe another subclass, I'll check it out. Again, thanks for the idea!
Good idea for the summons!! I thought about that too hehe, but unfortunately, the character MUST be the source of the Frightened condition, the aura is specific about that so no dice :( :
If a creature is frightened of you, its speed is reduced to 0 while in the aura.
I did not consider Sentinel actually because of War Caster + Booming Blade which I want both for advantage on concentration and for AoOs using Booming Blade.
What I'm looking to do is to tank, first and foremost. Conquest was also the only Oath that I felt made sense for a non-evil Paladin/Hexblade combo which was my initial idea, a Pal 13/Hex 7 with pact of blade and a two handed weapon build which I ended up dropping to go sword and board and more heavily focus on defense. I considered "support" through buffs/debuffs afterwards when I realized we had no caster at all.
Again, thanks for all the neat ideas. It means alot and juggling ideas like this helps. What do you think about my proposed ideas on the progression though?
Option 1: Pal 9/Hex 2/Divine Soul 9 or Pal 13/Hex 2/Divine Soul 5 - still undecided on the split Option 2: Pal 19/Hex 1 Option 3: Pal 17/Hex 3 or Pal 13/Hex 7 - again uncertain for the split and now uncertain of pact of chain vs pact of tome Option 4: Pal 13/Hex 3/Fighter (Battle Master) 4 I'm not sure which of these options (or the Cleric one proposed) would fit best together mechanically for the tank/support I'm trying to go for. I don't think I mentioned it in the original post but I don't see the character as a typical caster at all and am mostly grabbing touch spells or buffs/healing so far. The only "ranged" attack I have is, you guessed it, Eldritch Blast.
If I grab any invocations though, the first will definitely be Grasp of Hadar to drag stuff to me (no save!) and simplify my job with my aura of conquest and, depending on how far I go into Hexblade and which pact I grab, either Lance of Lethargy (more control and I can use both that and grasp in the same turn), Investment of the Chain Master or Book of Ancient Secrets. I considered Agonizing Blast as well but I'm trying my best not to focus on damage in case its not obvious so it definitely wouldn't be my first choice until I unlocked a 3rd or 4th invocation if I ever go that high.
I’d go 11 paladin for aura of courage and improved divine smite. Your polearm master feat let’s you take advantage of the extra damage with your reaction and bonus action. It also gets increased when you smite vs your hexed target.
Bard of eloquence afterward may prove powerful both mechanically and thematically. Expertise in several skills, treating any charisma deception/persuasion check 1d20 as 10 or higher regardless of the roll. Full caster slot progression for smite fuel. Higher hit die than sorcerer. Unsettling words to mess with enemy save DCs when needed. Unfailing inspiration so bard die aren’t wasted. Lots of good stuff. eventually your bard die come back on a short rest like your channel divinity and warlock features.
I'm a fan of relatively simple character builds... once you start throwing 3+ multiclass into a build I find it often gets clunky and often makes a character underperform for several levels until the unique combination they're trying to take advantage of comes online.
That said... a Conquest Hexadin with high CHA and CON is already a beast. Paladin gives you just enough healing/utility spells to cover most challenges your group will encounter, especially if you're focused primarily on support/tanking. My recommendation would be to take Pal 17/War 3... this gives you two level 2 slots that recharge on a short rest, freeing you up to use them for smites or other spells more freely. You also get access to invocations, which can greatly boost your utility and support for free.
@Bobbybaker: I know! Mechanically it looks great! As I mentioned though, my character does not really feel like he'd fit the "bard mold" so to speak. His entire concept is based on acquiring power through knowledge and training to accomplish the goal related to his oath of conquest. Thanks for your input though. I've never played a bard before and they look amazing this time around so I'll probably try them out next character I roll up.
@TransmorpherDDS: That is true. Very true even. What makes you say 17/3 over something like 15/5 or 13/7 split however? This option along with the Pal 9/Hex 1-2/DS 9-10 are the two I am considering most for supportive reasons. DS is mostly for access to better supportive spells through the Cleric spell list (and Spiritual Guardians!!!), metamagic (Quicken + Twin/Subtle/Careful, undecided), SP and more spell slots. I feel like I'm leaving support options on the table going only Pal/Hex since Hexblade's spell list has basically no support options though the invocations are nice and the short rest spell slots as well. Being able to recoup 2 2nd, 3rd or 4th level spell slots (depending on the split) is mighty tempting.
However, after 5-6 sessions so far, it feels like action economy is the most important ressource to manage and I feel like there is nothing except perhaps Action Surge that can come close to a Divine Soul (or other Sorcerer multiclass) simply because of Quicken. In fact, I will be trading my Interception Fighting Style for Defense because of that. Both Interception and Protection use a precious reaction that I want to save. It has been helpful so far but as enemies start getting Extra Attacks as well, I can see it becoming less and less useful. But I digress.
I do get a better hit die and better lay on hands but the only spells that I'm interested in that is solely on the Pal spell list that I don't get from DS is Find Greater Steed, Destructive Wave and Circle of Power (really wish that one was in the Cleric spell list) which I can mostly live without. The level 10+ features from the Pally list all seem very "meh" to me save for the auras at 18th level which is way too far for my liking.
It feels like I made up my mind already doesn't it? I mostly have and am leaning towards the Divine Soul side but I'm still quite interested in your opinion regarding the Pal/Hex split as it was still a consideration. If I go Divine Soul, I'm also not going to be getting the pact of chain which is also pretty useful as far as support is concerned.
My build concept will actually be mostly online by Pal 7/Hex 1, enhanced with War Caster and Shield Master for the next 2 ASIs after that at Pal 8/Hex 1 and then whatever else I put levels in but everything else after that is just gravy. Just, I'm trying to figure out which kind of gravy will work best in our party. :)
Hello!
Haven't played DnD in many years since 3.5 a good 10 years ago and I'm currently playing in my first 5E adventure. We're playing Curse of Strahd and are currently level 4 with a party of 5:
1. Half orc Barbarian (Path of Wild Magic)
2. Rock Gnome Artificer (Battle Smith)
3. Human Rogue (Swashbuckler)
4. Warforged Mystic (don't know the subclass)
5. Myself - Custom Lineage Paladin of Conquest 3/Hexblade 1 with the Haunted One background.
We rolled for stats and I got pretty good rolls:
STR 13/DEX 12/CON 16/INT 11/WIS 14/CHA 17(+2 from race)
My 1st lvl feat was a refluffed Polearm Master into Blade Master to let me use it sword/board style.
I was trying to build my character as a tank/support and avoid the nova build shenanigans as much as possible since we are not lacking in the DPS department but we are sorely lacking in support/casting options. My current goal is to grab a charisma half feat next level (pal 4), war caster to be extra sticky with booming blade on AoOs on the next asi (pal 8) and reach 3rd level paladin spells (pal 9/hex 1) by the end of Curse of Strahd.
This module is a sort of training/introduction to 5E for all of us, including our DM. He is planning to transition our characters into his own custom campaign after Curse of Strahd which will (supposedly) go up to level 20.
The only other things I am relatively certain of is the next few feats, 3rd and 4th ASI I was aiming for Shield Master and Tough respectively.
I have considered a few paths moving forward while keeping the supportive tank role in mind:
Option 1: Pal 9/Hex 2/Divine Soul 9 or Pal 13/Hex 2/Divine Soul 5 - still undecided on the split
This obviously grants me more spell slots including options to upcast spells with, support spells and, most importantly, metamagic for quickened and twinned. The only spells I would grab from the new spell list are healing and support spells with a few notable exceptions that would make sense thematically (such as spirit guardians).
Option 2: Pal 19/Hex 1
The main lure here is the 5th level pally spells and the 30 feet auras but i'm not even certain we'll ever get there and it feels so very far away. I also lose out on many support options from the "SorCleric" spell list, get less slots to use them my spells in general and lose out on metamagic for quickened/twinned support spells that I do have. I do eventually get an extra ASI I don't really need and could use for something like Alert or making my Con 18 or whatever.
Option 3: Pal 17/Hex 3 or Pal 13/Hex 7 - again uncertain for the split but would grab pact of chain Sprite with investment of the chain master
This one loses out on the auras and metamagic options in exchange for a smaller number of decent leveled short rest spell slots, nice utility and RP potential with the sprite familiar (Hey listen!) and the poisoned debuff on a DC 19 feels pretty strong if nothing else. It should be noted that I'm not a huge fan of most of the Warlock spell list based on the tank/support concept. Not many things I want in there except stuff that already overlaps with my Paladin spell list which I could save precious prepared slots for.
Option 4: Pal 13/Hex 3/Fighter (Battle Master) 4
This one trades spellcasting utility for martial utility in the form of maneuvers + an extra fighting style and the amazing action surge. I wouldn't really be able to grab any maneuvers that require a saving throw due to poor str/dex though unless I find some magic item that boosts my Str but there are a few notable tanky/tactical options to choose from.
As you can see, I'm kind of hit by choice paralysis at this point and despite the fact that I don't really need to consider my options until the end of Curse of Strahd is true, I'd rather be prepared ahead of time and start incorporating it in the character's role play as soon as possible.
So what do you think is the better option for the tank/support-type character concept I am trying to pull with our party composition? Anything else that would fit better that I have not considered?
For the record, I already considered different Bard and Rogue subclasses but nothing that seemed to fit thematically AND mechanically. Considering my character's backstory, I don't see him singing or playing music or something like that, just saying but I'm open to suggestions!
Thank you for your time and assistance!
Why obsess over 3rd level Paladin spells? Depends on what you have in mind, but your Option 1 includes Sorc levels. An odd number of Pal levels mixed with any Spellcasting class will impede your slot progression.
Not sure how your feat works - is it just Polearm Master, but you've functionally traded using it with a Spear for using it with a Longsword? That plus your other plans suggests your primary use for slots will be Divine Smite, moreso than L3 Paladin spells.
What the hell is a Mystic? I can't tell if you're all the party has for serious healing. If you are, Divine Sorcerer is a very credible source of healing magic.
Hey! Thanks for the reply. For the 3rd level paladin spells, it was both for the Fear oath spell which my aura is so dependant on as well as to ease the progression. I did consider stopping at Pal 7 but I really need that ASI for War Caster ASAP (delayed up to Character Level 13 at the earliest) and stopping at Pal 8 delays any access to 3rd level spells up until character level 14 at the earliest (Pal 8/Hex 1/Sorc 5) which I felt was too far. Sure, at level 20, pal 8/hex 1-2/sorc 10-11 is probably more powerful. But I'm trying to consider the progression all the way up there!
Yes, Polearm Master is basically unchanged except I'm using it with a longsword instead of a spear just because. Honestly, if I could have grabbed War Caster at level 1, I would have. But I started as a Paladin so I could not and Sentinel felt redundant with the Aura of Conquest + War Caster/Booming Blade combo.
Mystic is from UA (https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UAMystic3.pdf), its a pure psionic "caster" but that does not actually use spell slots so yes, my Paladin is the only source of healing until the Battle Smith's Steel Defender gets Arcane Jolt at level 9 (only a 2d6/5 times per long rest).
3rd level Paladin spells has many things I liked such as:
I know that several of these overlap with options I'd also get from 5th level of Sorcerer but I felt waiting until character level 14-15 (Pal 8/Hex 1-2/DS 5) was way too far off and I'm worried it'll prove troublesome from level 9 onwards with only access to 2nd level spells.
Here's an option: Twilight Cleric. Your wisdom isn't great, but that's fine, because your party doesn't need you casting attack spells or debuffs, it needs you casting party support. Twilight Clerics like wading into the middle of a fight, because they have auras that buff themselves and allies within 30 feet. Their Channel Divinity can help alleviate you throwing around AOE fears that might occasionally catch your allies, like Fear.
It's frustrating that Fear isn't on the Cleric spell list, because it really seems to be the only reason you're going to Paladin 9 instead of Paladin 7. Consider: is Fear really going to open up many opportunities to inflict Frightened that Cause Fear, Wrathful Smite, and your Conquering Presence don't already have covered? Maybe, maybe not... Consider also that Summon Shadowspawn and Summon Undead (Ghostly) are spells you can pick up as a Warlock 5, which are potential alertnative Frightened inflictors to Fear. Some of your builds already contemplated taking Hex to 2 or 3... not that much further to get 5? And Warlock 5 gets you Fear as well, so there's no need for Paladin 9... .unless your party's playstyle will actually benefit from the ten-foot Aura of Courage you get at 10 (and I really could see how it would, with the Rogue and Barbarian flanking you on either side in combat while you lock down one or two enemies around you.
You're in a unique situation, building your Paladin to be more about party support than control than making melee attacks themself. Unique situations call for unique builds.Maybe:
At this point, I think you probably have "enough" spell slots to properly support and heal your party, and can think about which of three focuses you want to move into: tanking, support, or control.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Hello! Thanks for taking the time to write all this. I'm going to try to go through everything as best I can.
I'm definitely going to need time to analyze all the options and look it over as possibilities moving on though, I had not actually considered any of the Cleric subclasses at all due to Wis and since Divine Soul could get them but I realize there must be some pretty nice abilities in there, Twilight included, so I'll go check that out. Thanks for that.
As for Fear, its the "no saves" past the first one when cast that was very alluring to me and the cone shouldn't be too difficult to aim away from friendlies. It'd be even easier with Careful metamagic if absolutely necessary and if I go the Sorc route. I'm reconsidering Twinned vs Careful due to stuff like Careful + Web and the high SP cost of Twinned. Sorc does get Fear so I could do Pal 8/Hex 1/Sorc 5, but again, I'm delaying it up until character level 14 which is way too far for my taste.
Cause Fear is annoying because they get a free save (no action required) every turn, same as my Conquering Presence Channel Divinity option though that one doesn't cost an action to use at least. Wrathful Smite is my go to 1st-level option and it is very nice since it only allows an enemy to repeat the save by using up their action. However, I can't keep Wrathful Smite up on multiple enemies and I can't break concentration on the effect to cast another fear effect (save for Channel Divinity).
If I catch them with the Fear spell inside my aura, they are pretty much disabled for the fight since they don't get a new save as long as I'm in line of sight. Though, 10 feet isn't very large admittedly. It also lets me target multiple enemies and practically becomes a save or suck spellI though I would probably need to go up to Pal 18 though if I really want to abuse the aura which doesn't let me grab any other class obviously.
I haven't abused fear much yet since I need that 7th level Aura of Conquest to matter at all or I might as well have used a different Oath. I also need that next ASI for War Caster ASAP as well so I'm gunning to it so up until Pal 8/Hex 1 for sure. Paladin levels 4 through 8 are thus considered my highest priority right now for 1st ASI for CHA 20, Extra Attack, Aura of Prot, Aura of Conquest, 2nd ASI. So yeah, I don't see myself MCing at all before Pal 8/Hex 1 at the very earliest.
I had initially considered Pal 8/Hex 1/Sorc 11 as "optimal" for level 20 but the progression to 3rd level spells taking so much longer killed it for me. The extra 1 level to Pal 9 for 3rd level Paladin spells feels like it is mandatory for decent progression and usability from character level 10 to 14. Pal 7/Hex 1/fullcaster 5 means I delay both the 2nd ASI and the 3rd level spells by 3 levels and I'm worried it'll drag down the team. Curse of Strahd also ends at character level 9-10 from what our DM told us so I wouldn't get those spells until after we're done the module and I fear (hah!) I would drag the team down if I don't grab those ASAP.
So maybe something like Conquest 9/Hex 1/Twilight 10 to get up to 5th level spells and Divine Intervention with the progression from here on being Pal 3/Hex 1 -> Pal 9/Hex 1 -> Pal 9/Hex 1/Twilight 10. Or maybe another subclass, I'll check it out. Again, thanks for the idea!
Good idea for the summons!! I thought about that too hehe, but unfortunately, the character MUST be the source of the Frightened condition, the aura is specific about that so no dice :( :
If a creature is frightened of you, its speed is reduced to 0 while in the aura.
I did not consider Sentinel actually because of War Caster + Booming Blade which I want both for advantage on concentration and for AoOs using Booming Blade.
What I'm looking to do is to tank, first and foremost. Conquest was also the only Oath that I felt made sense for a non-evil Paladin/Hexblade combo which was my initial idea, a Pal 13/Hex 7 with pact of blade and a two handed weapon build which I ended up dropping to go sword and board and more heavily focus on defense. I considered "support" through buffs/debuffs afterwards when I realized we had no caster at all.
Again, thanks for all the neat ideas. It means alot and juggling ideas like this helps. What do you think about my proposed ideas on the progression though?
Option 1: Pal 9/Hex 2/Divine Soul 9 or Pal 13/Hex 2/Divine Soul 5 - still undecided on the split
Option 2: Pal 19/Hex 1
Option 3: Pal 17/Hex 3 or Pal 13/Hex 7 - again uncertain for the split and now uncertain of pact of chain vs pact of tome
Option 4: Pal 13/Hex 3/Fighter (Battle Master) 4
I'm not sure which of these options (or the Cleric one proposed) would fit best together mechanically for the tank/support I'm trying to go for. I don't think I mentioned it in the original post but I don't see the character as a typical caster at all and am mostly grabbing touch spells or buffs/healing so far. The only "ranged" attack I have is, you guessed it, Eldritch Blast.
If I grab any invocations though, the first will definitely be Grasp of Hadar to drag stuff to me (no save!) and simplify my job with my aura of conquest and, depending on how far I go into Hexblade and which pact I grab, either Lance of Lethargy (more control and I can use both that and grasp in the same turn), Investment of the Chain Master or Book of Ancient Secrets. I considered Agonizing Blast as well but I'm trying my best not to focus on damage in case its not obvious so it definitely wouldn't be my first choice until I unlocked a 3rd or 4th invocation if I ever go that high.
I’d go 11 paladin for aura of courage and improved divine smite. Your polearm master feat let’s you take advantage of the extra damage with your reaction and bonus action. It also gets increased when you smite vs your hexed target.
Bard of eloquence afterward may prove powerful both mechanically and thematically. Expertise in several skills, treating any charisma deception/persuasion check 1d20 as 10 or higher regardless of the roll. Full caster slot progression for smite fuel. Higher hit die than sorcerer. Unsettling words to mess with enemy save DCs when needed. Unfailing inspiration so bard die aren’t wasted. Lots of good stuff. eventually your bard die come back on a short rest like your channel divinity and warlock features.
I'm a fan of relatively simple character builds... once you start throwing 3+ multiclass into a build I find it often gets clunky and often makes a character underperform for several levels until the unique combination they're trying to take advantage of comes online.
That said... a Conquest Hexadin with high CHA and CON is already a beast. Paladin gives you just enough healing/utility spells to cover most challenges your group will encounter, especially if you're focused primarily on support/tanking. My recommendation would be to take Pal 17/War 3... this gives you two level 2 slots that recharge on a short rest, freeing you up to use them for smites or other spells more freely. You also get access to invocations, which can greatly boost your utility and support for free.
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@Bobbybaker: I know! Mechanically it looks great! As I mentioned though, my character does not really feel like he'd fit the "bard mold" so to speak. His entire concept is based on acquiring power through knowledge and training to accomplish the goal related to his oath of conquest. Thanks for your input though. I've never played a bard before and they look amazing this time around so I'll probably try them out next character I roll up.
@TransmorpherDDS: That is true. Very true even. What makes you say 17/3 over something like 15/5 or 13/7 split however? This option along with the Pal 9/Hex 1-2/DS 9-10 are the two I am considering most for supportive reasons. DS is mostly for access to better supportive spells through the Cleric spell list (and Spiritual Guardians!!!), metamagic (Quicken + Twin/Subtle/Careful, undecided), SP and more spell slots. I feel like I'm leaving support options on the table going only Pal/Hex since Hexblade's spell list has basically no support options though the invocations are nice and the short rest spell slots as well. Being able to recoup 2 2nd, 3rd or 4th level spell slots (depending on the split) is mighty tempting.
However, after 5-6 sessions so far, it feels like action economy is the most important ressource to manage and I feel like there is nothing except perhaps Action Surge that can come close to a Divine Soul (or other Sorcerer multiclass) simply because of Quicken. In fact, I will be trading my Interception Fighting Style for Defense because of that. Both Interception and Protection use a precious reaction that I want to save. It has been helpful so far but as enemies start getting Extra Attacks as well, I can see it becoming less and less useful. But I digress.
I do get a better hit die and better lay on hands but the only spells that I'm interested in that is solely on the Pal spell list that I don't get from DS is Find Greater Steed, Destructive Wave and Circle of Power (really wish that one was in the Cleric spell list) which I can mostly live without. The level 10+ features from the Pally list all seem very "meh" to me save for the auras at 18th level which is way too far for my liking.
It feels like I made up my mind already doesn't it? I mostly have and am leaning towards the Divine Soul side but I'm still quite interested in your opinion regarding the Pal/Hex split as it was still a consideration. If I go Divine Soul, I'm also not going to be getting the pact of chain which is also pretty useful as far as support is concerned.
My build concept will actually be mostly online by Pal 7/Hex 1, enhanced with War Caster and Shield Master for the next 2 ASIs after that at Pal 8/Hex 1 and then whatever else I put levels in but everything else after that is just gravy. Just, I'm trying to figure out which kind of gravy will work best in our party. :)