AC has *increasing* returns against a given hit bonus - AC 10->11 is a smaller rise in durability than AC 17->18. Strength is also, in general, the only ability score that does something at odd levels - it improves encumbrance, jumping, and qualifies you for heavy armor without a mobility penalty.
If I'm playing a 2/1 race with proficiency in heavy armor, my goal is speed 25 - then I can keep up with even fellow PCs whose speed is 25 anyway. That means as a dwarf or 35' race like Dhampir or Half Wood Elf, I don't need Strength.
The primary reason I'll choose medium armor over heavy when I don't have to is if a) I'm a winged tiefling or b) I'm multiclassing and my primary class needs to not put the armor on - Rogue, Monk, Barbarian, and depending on the DM, Druid may lock me out of heavy armor in order for my features to work, so that can force my hand. The secondary reason is if I'm a Fighter leaning into Dexterity and I'm not a mobile race - if I'm making a rifleman samurai and I'm not a mobile race, I need to seriously consider letting myself be speed 20 and I'll probably refuse.
This is not true. If you're rolling a normal attack (not advantage or disadvantage), every 1 point increase in AC makes a an attack 5% less likely to hit you. Capping out at a 5% chance overall (crits always hit).
Yes and no.
If my AC is 11 and it increases to 12, then against an enemy I go from taking hits 50% of the time, to 45% of the time. Of every 20 attacks made, on average I will get hit 1 time less. This is a 10% reduction in the number of times I get hit when this increase occurs.
If my AC is 19 and it increases to 20, then I will take hits 5% of the time instead of 10% of the time. This is a 50% reduction in the number of times that I get hit when this increase occurs.
Ah, I see how you're looking at it. That makes sense.
Paladin: Light armor, medium armor, shields, simple weapons, martial weapons.
Sorcerer: -
Player’s Handbook. Chapter 5.
Equipment, Armor and Shields:
Armor Proficiency. Anyone can put on a suit of armor or strap a shield to an arm. Only those proficient in the armor’s use know how to wear it effectively, however. Your class gives you proficiency with certain types of armor. If you wear armor that you lack proficiency with, you have disadvantage on any ability check, saving throw, or attack roll that involves Strength or Dexterity, and you can’t cast spells.
Heavy Armor. Heavier armor interferes with the wearer's ability to move quickly, stealthily, and freely. If the Armor table shows "Str 13" or "Str 15" in the Strength column for an armor type, the armor reduces the wearer's speed by 10 feet unless the wearer has a Strength score equal to or higher than the listed score.
Stealth. If the Armor table shows "Disadvantage" in the Stealth column, the wearer has disadvantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks.
I will be delighted if someone can show me in which chapter, in what book, and in which section there is a rule that say that a Sorcerer/Paladin, or a Paladin/Sorcerer and be proficient in wearing Heavy armor.
Paladin: Light armor, medium armor, shields, simple weapons, martial weapons.
Sorcerer: -
Player’s Handbook. Chapter 5.
Equipment, Armor and Shields:
Armor Proficiency. Anyone can put on a suit of armor or strap a shield to an arm. Only those proficient in the armor’s use know how to wear it effectively, however. Your class gives you proficiency with certain types of armor. If you wear armor that you lack proficiency with, you have disadvantage on any ability check, saving throw, or attack roll that involves Strength or Dexterity, and you can’t cast spells.
Heavy Armor. Heavier armor interferes with the wearer's ability to move quickly, stealthily, and freely. If the Armor table shows "Str 13" or "Str 15" in the Strength column for an armor type, the armor reduces the wearer's speed by 10 feet unless the wearer has a Strength score equal to or higher than the listed score.
Stealth. If the Armor table shows "Disadvantage" in the Stealth column, the wearer has disadvantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks.
I will be delighted if someone can show me in which chapter, in what book, and in which section there is a rule that say that a Sorcerer/Paladin, or a Paladin/Sorcerer and be proficient in wearing Heavy armor.
Paladin's are proficient in ALL armor. Where does it say you lose your proficiency if you multi-class?
EDIT: I see your confusion now. If you multi-class from Sorcerer to Paladin you only gain some of the Paladin's proficiencies. But if you start as a Paladin, you keep all of the Paladin's proficiencies.
Proficiencies
When you gain your first level in a class other than your initial class, you gain only some of new class's starting proficiencies, as shown in the Multiclassing Proficiencies table.
Paladin: Light armor, medium armor, shields, simple weapons, martial weapons.
Sorcerer: -
Player’s Handbook. Chapter 5.
Equipment, Armor and Shields:
Armor Proficiency. Anyone can put on a suit of armor or strap a shield to an arm. Only those proficient in the armor’s use know how to wear it effectively, however. Your class gives you proficiency with certain types of armor. If you wear armor that you lack proficiency with, you have disadvantage on any ability check, saving throw, or attack roll that involves Strength or Dexterity, and you can’t cast spells.
Heavy Armor. Heavier armor interferes with the wearer's ability to move quickly, stealthily, and freely. If the Armor table shows "Str 13" or "Str 15" in the Strength column for an armor type, the armor reduces the wearer's speed by 10 feet unless the wearer has a Strength score equal to or higher than the listed score.
Stealth. If the Armor table shows "Disadvantage" in the Stealth column, the wearer has disadvantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks.
I will be delighted if someone can show me in which chapter, in what book, and in which section there is a rule that say that a Sorcerer/Paladin, or a Paladin/Sorcerer and be proficient in wearing Heavy armor.
Once you gain a proficiency in the Heavy Armor with Paladin 1 you never lose it.....so why would MC sorcerer all of a sudden make you lose proficiency?
Paladin: Light armor, medium armor, shields, simple weapons, martial weapons.
Sorcerer: -
Player’s Handbook. Chapter 5.
Equipment, Armor and Shields:
Armor Proficiency. Anyone can put on a suit of armor or strap a shield to an arm. Only those proficient in the armor’s use know how to wear it effectively, however. Your class gives you proficiency with certain types of armor. If you wear armor that you lack proficiency with, you have disadvantage on any ability check, saving throw, or attack roll that involves Strength or Dexterity, and you can’t cast spells.
Heavy Armor. Heavier armor interferes with the wearer's ability to move quickly, stealthily, and freely. If the Armor table shows "Str 13" or "Str 15" in the Strength column for an armor type, the armor reduces the wearer's speed by 10 feet unless the wearer has a Strength score equal to or higher than the listed score.
Stealth. If the Armor table shows "Disadvantage" in the Stealth column, the wearer has disadvantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks.
I will be delighted if someone can show me in which chapter, in what book, and in which section there is a rule that say that a Sorcerer/Paladin, or a Paladin/Sorcerer and be proficient in wearing Heavy armor.
Once you gain a proficiency in the Heavy Armor with Paladin 1 you never lose it.....so why would MC sorcerer all of a sudden make you lose proficiency?
He got confused on the multi-classing rules. It shows restrictions for when you multi-class *into* Paladin. But he missed the part where it explains that only pertains to a new class, not your original class.
Paladin: Light armor, medium armor, shields, simple weapons, martial weapons.
Sorcerer: -
Player’s Handbook. Chapter 5.
Equipment, Armor and Shields:
Armor Proficiency. Anyone can put on a suit of armor or strap a shield to an arm. Only those proficient in the armor’s use know how to wear it effectively, however. Your class gives you proficiency with certain types of armor. If you wear armor that you lack proficiency with, you have disadvantage on any ability check, saving throw, or attack roll that involves Strength or Dexterity, and you can’t cast spells.
Heavy Armor. Heavier armor interferes with the wearer's ability to move quickly, stealthily, and freely. If the Armor table shows "Str 13" or "Str 15" in the Strength column for an armor type, the armor reduces the wearer's speed by 10 feet unless the wearer has a Strength score equal to or higher than the listed score.
Stealth. If the Armor table shows "Disadvantage" in the Stealth column, the wearer has disadvantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks.
I will be delighted if someone can show me in which chapter, in what book, and in which section there is a rule that say that a Sorcerer/Paladin, or a Paladin/Sorcerer and be proficient in wearing Heavy armor.
Once you gain a proficiency in the Heavy Armor with Paladin 1 you never lose it.....so why would MC sorcerer all of a sudden make you lose proficiency?
He got confused on the multi-classing rules. It shows restrictions for when you multi-class *into* Paladin. But he missed the part where it explains that only pertains to a new class, not your original class.
Ahhh ok yeah that makes sense...its something that gets overlooked a lot.
Thats why you have to START paladin to get heavy armor.
"When you gain your first level in a class other than your initial class, you gain only some of new class's starting proficiencies, as shown in the Multiclassing Proficiencies table." It is important to note that they say "some" and not "all".
Paladins have the ability to wear Heavy armor, when they multi-class into Sorcerer, they get to keep Light armor, Medium armor, Shields, Simple weapons, and Martial weapons. Sorcerers can't use any armor at all, so in combination, no matter what order they start out with, they end up unable to wear Heavy armor proficiently. It's as simple as that.
Once again, if you can find where the rules say otherwise, please do feel free to show me them.
"When you gain your first level in a class other than your initial class, you gain only someof new class's starting proficiencies, as shown in the Multiclassing Proficiencies table." It is important to note that they say "some" and not "all".
Paladins have the ability to wear Heavy armor, when they multi-class into Sorcerer, they get to keep Light armor, Medium armor, Shields, Simple weapons, and Martial weapons. Sorcerers can't use any armor at all, so in combination, no matter what order they start out with, they end up unable to wear Heavy armor proficiently. It's as simple as that.
Once again, if you can find where the rules say otherwise, please do feel free to show me them.
If you start as a Paladin and then mc into Sorcerer, is the Paladin your new class?
"When you gain your first level in a class other than your initial class, you gain only some of new class's starting proficiencies, as shown in the Multiclassing Proficiencies table."
Paladins have the ability to wear Heavy armor, when they multi-class into Sorcerer, they get to keep Light armor, Medium armor, Shields, Simple weapons, and Martial weapons. Sorcerers can't use any armor at all, so in combination, no matter what order they start out with, they end up unable to wear Heavy armor proficiently. It's as simple as that.
Once again, if you can find where the rules say otherwise, please do feel free to show me them.
You never lose prof.....do you have a rule that says you do?
Here is a character I made in Beyond that is paladin/sorcerer: https://ddb.ac/characters/56094811/v0lqqg They have Heavy armor proficiency and are wearing heavy armor.
If you gain proficency in something from a class you never lose it....unless you lose that class level. In this case its perfectly fine for a Paladin who dipped into sorcerer to use heavy armor.
"When you gain your first level in a class other than your initial class, you gain only some of new class's starting proficiencies, as shown in the Multiclassing Proficiencies table." It is important to note that they say "some" and not "all".
Paladins have the ability to wear Heavy armor, when they multi-class into Sorcerer, they get to keep Light armor, Medium armor, Shields, Simple weapons, and Martial weapons. Sorcerers can't use any armor at all, so in combination, no matter what order they start out with, they end up unable to wear Heavy armor proficiently. It's as simple as that.
Once again, if you can find where the rules say otherwise, please do feel free to show me them.
You need to reread what you just typed my friend. It says: When you gain your first level in a class other than your initial class, you gain only some of new class's starting proficiencies, as shown in the Multiclassing Proficiencies table.
So if they start Paladin at level 1 they will get and keep Heavy Armor proficiency because they are not multiclassing into Paladin. If they were to start Sorcerer then multiclass into Paladin then they would not get Heavy Armor proficiency.
The big problem with strength builds vs dexterity builds is that all your ranged attack options for strength are atrocious.
Yeah its sad how STR was treated in 5e....your damage is roughly the same as a ranged character (especially with Archery style included) and you pretty much have to sit out a round or do one attack only if you are not able to close.
It has become clear that I am unable to read. Paladin: Light armor, medium armor, shields, simple weapons, martial weapons. I can't see the world "heavy" in that list. I can't find it anywhere in what Sorcerers can wear either. Nobody seems to be able to tell my why they can keep skills that aren't on that list, they just keep saying I'm stupid. We all know perfectly well that the Character Builder Tool can't read minds and lets you do things you can't do by the rules. You can have more weapons equipped than you have hands to hold them in. You can wear multiple suits of armor at the same time, and... You can equip Heavy armor that you aren't proficient in wearing.
I keep asking where the rule is that says "Paladins who multi-class into Sorcerer can freely wear Heavy armor, or that Sorcerers who multi-class into Paladins can wear Heavy armor."
If you find it, sent me a Private Message. I'm tired of having people call me stupid in public.
Yep! A single class Paladin can wear Heavy armor. I never disputed that. What happens when they become a Sorcerer? Can you show me the rule where it says "they get to remain proficient in everything they already had", because I've looked all over for that. I've scoured the PHB. I'd looked over the entire SAC. I've poked around a bit in the DMG. Where is it?
You are still showing people in public that I'm unable to read or something. I have been doing the best I can to be respectful, so please stop making public comments about me, because that's rude.
I'm not even all that certain I want to hear about this issue in private messages. So unless you are going to agree with me, or show me exactly where the rule is that shows I was mistaken, I'd rather just drop the issue.
Yep! A single class Paladin can wear Heavy armor. I never disputed that. What happens when they become a Sorcerer? Can you show me the rule where it says "they get to remain proficient in everything they already had", because I've looked all over for that. I've scoured the PHB. I'd looked over the entire SAC. I've poked around a bit in the DMG. Where is it?
It's in the fact that nothing in either the multiclass rules nor the class rules ever says 'lose', just 'gain'.
Can you show me the rule where it says "they get to remain proficient in everything they already had", because I've looked all over for that. I've scoured the PHB. I'd looked over the entire SAC. I've poked around a bit in the DMG. Where is it?
It's at least in the Sage Advice Compendium. It's one of those optional-rule-only details (because multiclassing at all is optional) that the core books aren't always clear about.
"Do you gain proficiency in more saving throws when multiclassing? A class offers various starting proficiencies that you get if it is your first class. If the class isn’t your first, you get only the starting proficiencies listed for that class in the Multiclassing Proficiencies table (PH, 164). No saving throw proficiencies are included in that table."
Also, since it's tucked away in a question about saving throws, it's not exactly obvious for other proficiencies, though it's clearly talking about all of the starting class ones.
Can you show me the rule where it says "they get to remain proficient in everything they already had", because I've looked all over for that.
When you look at the Paladin entry, it's to multiclass into Paladin, for a class other than the Paladin Itself.
If you start as a Paladin, you gain all the armor proficiencies on the Paladin listing and when you multiclass, you gain some proficiencies from the new class. Given that Paladins are already proficient in all shields, light, medium and heavy armors, they obviously gain nothing new in terms of armor proficiency really. But Multiclassing never make you loose those you already have.
You are correct, CynicalEye, A Paladin can wear heavy armor. When they take Sorcerer, they no longer can wear it with proficiency.
Armor Proficiency. Your class gives you proficiency with certain types of armor. If you wear armor that you lack proficiency with, you have disadvantage on any ability check, saving throw, or attack roll that involves Strength or Dexterity, and you can't cast spells.
Lulz Wat? No. A Paly does not lose their proficiency with heavy armour when they multiclass. Absolutely nowhere in the rules does it say that. They absolutely can wear their plate armour and cast their sorcerer spells because they are proficient.
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Ah, I see how you're looking at it. That makes sense.
Player’s Handbook. Chapter 6.
Ability Score Minimum:
Paladin: Strength 13 and Charisma 13
Sorcerer: Charisma 13
Multi-Classing Proficiencies:
Paladin: Light armor, medium armor, shields, simple weapons, martial weapons.
Sorcerer: -
Player’s Handbook. Chapter 5.
Equipment, Armor and Shields:
Armor Proficiency. Anyone can put on a suit of armor or strap a shield to an arm. Only those proficient in the armor’s use know how to wear it effectively, however. Your class gives you proficiency with certain types of armor. If you wear armor that you lack proficiency with, you have disadvantage on any ability check, saving throw, or attack roll that involves Strength or Dexterity, and you can’t cast spells.
Heavy Armor. Heavier armor interferes with the wearer's ability to move quickly, stealthily, and freely. If the Armor table shows "Str 13" or "Str 15" in the Strength column for an armor type, the armor reduces the wearer's speed by 10 feet unless the wearer has a Strength score equal to or higher than the listed score.
Stealth. If the Armor table shows "Disadvantage" in the Stealth column, the wearer has disadvantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks.
I will be delighted if someone can show me in which chapter, in what book, and in which section there is a rule that say that a Sorcerer/Paladin, or a Paladin/Sorcerer and be proficient in wearing Heavy armor.
<Insert clever signature here>
I don't know where you got that for Paladin.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/paladin#ClassFeatures
Proficiencies
Armor: All armor, shields
Paladin's are proficient in ALL armor. Where does it say you lose your proficiency if you multi-class?
EDIT: I see your confusion now. If you multi-class from Sorcerer to Paladin you only gain some of the Paladin's proficiencies. But if you start as a Paladin, you keep all of the Paladin's proficiencies.
Proficiencies
When you gain your first level in a class other than your initial class, you gain only some of new class's starting proficiencies, as shown in the Multiclassing Proficiencies table.
Once you gain a proficiency in the Heavy Armor with Paladin 1 you never lose it.....so why would MC sorcerer all of a sudden make you lose proficiency?
He got confused on the multi-classing rules. It shows restrictions for when you multi-class *into* Paladin. But he missed the part where it explains that only pertains to a new class, not your original class.
Ahhh ok yeah that makes sense...its something that gets overlooked a lot.
Thats why you have to START paladin to get heavy armor.
"When you gain your first level in a class other than your initial class, you gain only some of new class's starting proficiencies, as shown in the Multiclassing Proficiencies table." It is important to note that they say "some" and not "all".
Paladins have the ability to wear Heavy armor, when they multi-class into Sorcerer, they get to keep Light armor, Medium armor, Shields, Simple weapons, and Martial weapons. Sorcerers can't use any armor at all, so in combination, no matter what order they start out with, they end up unable to wear Heavy armor proficiently. It's as simple as that.
Once again, if you can find where the rules say otherwise, please do feel free to show me them.
<Insert clever signature here>
If you start as a Paladin and then mc into Sorcerer, is the Paladin your new class?
You never lose prof.....do you have a rule that says you do?
Here is a character I made in Beyond that is paladin/sorcerer: https://ddb.ac/characters/56094811/v0lqqg
They have Heavy armor proficiency and are wearing heavy armor.
If you gain proficency in something from a class you never lose it....unless you lose that class level. In this case its perfectly fine for a Paladin who dipped into sorcerer to use heavy armor.
You need to reread what you just typed my friend. It says: When you gain your first level in a class other than your initial class, you gain only some of new class's starting proficiencies, as shown in the Multiclassing Proficiencies table.
So if they start Paladin at level 1 they will get and keep Heavy Armor proficiency because they are not multiclassing into Paladin. If they were to start Sorcerer then multiclass into Paladin then they would not get Heavy Armor proficiency.
The big problem with strength builds vs dexterity builds is that all your ranged attack options for strength are atrocious.
Yeah its sad how STR was treated in 5e....your damage is roughly the same as a ranged character (especially with Archery style included) and you pretty much have to sit out a round or do one attack only if you are not able to close.
This is wildly incorrect and we are showing you the rules. You are quoting them but adding things that aren’t there.
It has become clear that I am unable to read. Paladin: Light armor, medium armor, shields, simple weapons, martial weapons. I can't see the world "heavy" in that list. I can't find it anywhere in what Sorcerers can wear either. Nobody seems to be able to tell my why they can keep skills that aren't on that list, they just keep saying I'm stupid. We all know perfectly well that the Character Builder Tool can't read minds and lets you do things you can't do by the rules. You can have more weapons equipped than you have hands to hold them in. You can wear multiple suits of armor at the same time, and... You can equip Heavy armor that you aren't proficient in wearing.
I keep asking where the rule is that says "Paladins who multi-class into Sorcerer can freely wear Heavy armor, or that Sorcerers who multi-class into Paladins can wear Heavy armor."
If you find it, sent me a Private Message. I'm tired of having people call me stupid in public.
<Insert clever signature here>
The Paladin Class for Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) Fifth Edition (5e) - D&D Beyond (dndbeyond.com)
Its in the base Paladin Proficiency List
You never lose skills or proficiencies that you get from classes even if your multiclass. Why? Because nothing says you do is the basic answer.
If you get heavy armor from paladin you always have it unless you somehow lose that character level.
Yep! A single class Paladin can wear Heavy armor. I never disputed that. What happens when they become a Sorcerer? Can you show me the rule where it says "they get to remain proficient in everything they already had", because I've looked all over for that. I've scoured the PHB. I'd looked over the entire SAC. I've poked around a bit in the DMG. Where is it?
You are still showing people in public that I'm unable to read or something. I have been doing the best I can to be respectful, so please stop making public comments about me, because that's rude.
I'm not even all that certain I want to hear about this issue in private messages. So unless you are going to agree with me, or show me exactly where the rule is that shows I was mistaken, I'd rather just drop the issue.
With all due respect. Cheers.
<Insert clever signature here>
It's in the fact that nothing in either the multiclass rules nor the class rules ever says 'lose', just 'gain'.
It's at least in the Sage Advice Compendium. It's one of those optional-rule-only details (because multiclassing at all is optional) that the core books aren't always clear about.
"Do you gain proficiency in more saving throws when multiclassing? A class offers various starting proficiencies that you get if it is your first class. If the class isn’t your first, you get only the starting proficiencies listed for that class in the Multiclassing Proficiencies table (PH, 164). No saving throw proficiencies are included in that table."
Also, since it's tucked away in a question about saving throws, it's not exactly obvious for other proficiencies, though it's clearly talking about all of the starting class ones.
When you look at the Paladin entry, it's to multiclass into Paladin, for a class other than the Paladin Itself.
If you start as a Paladin, you gain all the armor proficiencies on the Paladin listing and when you multiclass, you gain some proficiencies from the new class. Given that Paladins are already proficient in all shields, light, medium and heavy armors, they obviously gain nothing new in terms of armor proficiency really. But Multiclassing never make you loose those you already have.
Lulz Wat? No. A Paly does not lose their proficiency with heavy armour when they multiclass. Absolutely nowhere in the rules does it say that. They absolutely can wear their plate armour and cast their sorcerer spells because they are proficient.