For a character that wants to hide while lightly obscured... yeah, probably? For a character with Skulker that wants to use that special ability to hide in dim light while standing 5 feet away from an enemy that's looking right at them.... yeah, probably? My interpretations empower more players, and are better supported by the PHB text. So "do we really need to be so literal [when we could instead just use an unwritten rule that stops players from hiding]?" doesn't seem like a good compromise to me.
DMs and tables can rule as they wish; I think it's important, however, that they do so while understanding fully that the PHB never actually says you can't hide while Lightly Obscured. The Hiding rules are complicated enough without injecting new ones that aren't written down anywhere.
If you want to hide while lightly obscured then take the feat or pick those races.
Unncessary! It's already allowed at level 1! And the DM can do it with all their nasty villains! Hooray!
Yeah, but nobody runs it this way because we already understand that a bullet point on a Feature must mean something. Trying to boil down the words of a fallible editor makes no sense - hiding in dim light and snowfall by default literally changes the way the entire game is commonly played, ruins several Feats and Class Features entirely… because some guy forgot a single term in a rule book?
There is a point where the reductivist way of interpreting the rules actually creates problems at the table instead of solving them.
To be clear, my interpretation has skulker give a very powerful ability: you may hide any time that you have light obscured, even if the situation is not one that the DM would otherwise allow hiding in. For instance you are standing 5 feet away from an enemy in dim light that is a situation where hiding would not normally be appropriate because they’re only 5 feet away from you and looking right at you in combat. Or, hiding from someone you’re currently grappling with in dim light, wow! With skulker you have a special ability to hide ANY time that you have light obscured, that’s a big improvement over baseline hiding!!!
The interpretation that renders the editor “fallible” is the one that reads chapter 7, which talks about hiding when somebody cannot see you clearly, such as due to having light obscurement, as not actually saying what it says: that light obscurement is a context where you can hide. To treat the editor as so frail and fallible that they should not have been expected to say “you must be unseen to attempt to hide, such as in heavy obscurement or behind total cover or invisible.” if you want the text of the PHB to actually mean what it says it means, if you trust they wrote the rule they meant to write… then you should be in my camp, not the one that finds importance in the supposed rule unwritten and ignores the rule that is actually printed!
Its frustrating to me that when I take a position that we should pay more attention to what is written down than to our assumptions, that I am consistently accused of promoting a view that gives less respect to the authors. :(
Where does it say that you must be "unseen" to hide? The only time "unseen" is used, is when describing what you are after you are hidden. When describing conditions necessary to attempt to hide, all that is required is that you not be "seen clearly."
I understand what you're trying to say, and I understand that it makes sense. What I'm saying is, there's nothing you can point to in the PHB that makes that an actual stated rule.
When i say unseen, i mean not seen clearly wether invisible, heavily obscured, foes blinded etc
Lightly Obscured vision for the purposes of hiding, is not satisfying it otherwise both subraces (and Skulker feat) are capable of hiding in situations when most other creatures can. But most others can't, by the Dev's own admission.
My interpretation reads ONE unwritten word into skulker and similar effects: “always.” Yours reads an entire sentence or paragraph of unwritten rule into PHB 7 and/or PHB 8.
My interpretation is at peace with PHB 7 bring up lightly obscured while describing conditions allowing hiding. Your interpretation leaves that mention either wholly misleading, or outright incorrect.
my interpretation treats “seen clearly” as being a phrase where both “seen” and “clearly” have meaning. Yours treats “clearly” as meaningless filler.
That’s interpretation #1. Or, interpretation #2 gives it meaning too. If you subscribe to #1, where do you find the rule that you can’t hide in lightly obscured, considering Chapter 7 strongly implies you CAN? Did I miss a quote?
In a lightly obscured area, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight. But it doesn't block vision for those outside the area looking into it. So it still can be seen clearly, at least for the purpose of hiding.
This is exactly the point that Chicken_champ is making. A lightly obscured area does not by default give players the option to hide(unless they have Skulker or a similar racial feat). However, it doesn't prevent a DM from deciding that a given situation where there also is light obscurement can also be a valid time to hide( i.e there is a table that they could hide under).
The first rules to hide is that the DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding, so a DM can indeed decides it's the case in a Lightly obscured area.
But at base creatures can't hide in Lightly Obscured areas without a feat or feature specifically letting them do so. An official ruling in Sage Advice Compendium goes in that sense:
Do the lightfoot halfling and wood elf hiding racial traits allow them to hide while observed?
The lightfoot halfling and wood elf traits—Naturally Stealthy and Mask of the Wild—do allow members of those subraces to try to hide in their special circumstances even when observers are nearby. Normally, you can’t hide from someone if you’re in full view. A lightfoot halfling, though, can try to vanish behind a creature that is at least one size larger, and a wood elf can try to hide simply by being in heavy rain, mist, falling snow, foliage, or similar natural phenomena. It’s as if nature itself cloaks a wood elf from prying eyes—even eyes staring right at the elf! Both subraces are capable of hiding in situations when most other creatures can’t, but neither subrace’s hiding attempt is assured of success; a Dexterity (Stealth) check is required as normal, and an observant foe might later spot a hidden halfling or elf: “I see you behind that guard, you tricksy halfling!”
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If you want to hide while lightly obscured then take the feat or pick those races.
Boom done!
Unncessary! It's already allowed at level 1! And the DM can do it with all their nasty villains! Hooray!
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Yeah, but nobody runs it this way because we already understand that a bullet point on a Feature must mean something. Trying to boil down the words of a fallible editor makes no sense - hiding in dim light and snowfall by default literally changes the way the entire game is commonly played, ruins several Feats and Class Features entirely… because some guy forgot a single term in a rule book?
There is a point where the reductivist way of interpreting the rules actually creates problems at the table instead of solving them.
To be clear, my interpretation has skulker give a very powerful ability: you may hide any time that you have light obscured, even if the situation is not one that the DM would otherwise allow hiding in. For instance you are standing 5 feet away from an enemy in dim light that is a situation where hiding would not normally be appropriate because they’re only 5 feet away from you and looking right at you in combat. Or, hiding from someone you’re currently grappling with in dim light, wow! With skulker you have a special ability to hide ANY time that you have light obscured, that’s a big improvement over baseline hiding!!!
The interpretation that renders the editor “fallible” is the one that reads chapter 7, which talks about hiding when somebody cannot see you clearly, such as due to having light obscurement, as not actually saying what it says: that light obscurement is a context where you can hide. To treat the editor as so frail and fallible that they should not have been expected to say “you must be unseen to attempt to hide, such as in heavy obscurement or behind total cover or invisible.” if you want the text of the PHB to actually mean what it says it means, if you trust they wrote the rule they meant to write… then you should be in my camp, not the one that finds importance in the supposed rule unwritten and ignores the rule that is actually printed!
Its frustrating to me that when I take a position that we should pay more attention to what is written down than to our assumptions, that I am consistently accused of promoting a view that gives less respect to the authors. :(
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
When i say unseen, i mean not seen clearly wether invisible, heavily obscured, foes blinded etc
Lightly Obscured vision for the purposes of hiding, is not satisfying it otherwise both subraces (and Skulker feat) are capable of hiding in situations when most other creatures can. But most others can't, by the Dev's own admission.
My interpretation reads ONE unwritten word into skulker and similar effects: “always.” Yours reads an entire sentence or paragraph of unwritten rule into PHB 7 and/or PHB 8.
My interpretation is at peace with PHB 7 bring up lightly obscured while describing conditions allowing hiding. Your interpretation leaves that mention either wholly misleading, or outright incorrect.
my interpretation treats “seen clearly” as being a phrase where both “seen” and “clearly” have meaning. Yours treats “clearly” as meaningless filler.
You have a steeper hill to climb than I.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
This is exactly the point that Chicken_champ is making. A lightly obscured area does not by default give players the option to hide(unless they have Skulker or a similar racial feat). However, it doesn't prevent a DM from deciding that a given situation where there also is light obscurement can also be a valid time to hide( i.e there is a table that they could hide under).
The first rules to hide is that the DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding, so a DM can indeed decides it's the case in a Lightly obscured area.
But at base creatures can't hide in Lightly Obscured areas without a feat or feature specifically letting them do so. An official ruling in Sage Advice Compendium goes in that sense: