Yeah, a simple multiclass dip would be the best way to get a Sorcerer Gish... just two levels of Paladin gets you Divine Smite, which is even more useful for a character that has access to a full spellcaster's volume of spell slots. It also opens you up to other Sorcerer Subclasses, and you could build a character that's far more versatile and viable in combat. Even dipping into Bard just to get access to rapiers and light armor would be an improvement, if a minor one.
I think it is kind of interesting that Sorcerer is the only full-caster class that doesn't have some form of melee-focused fighter. Not that every class has a GOOD melee-focused build, but it's an option for everyone but Sorcerer.
The visual intent of a 'gish' is this guy with a sword in one hand and spell effects in the other hand, who you expect to do multiattack combining casting a spell with a sword blow. This is not something that is especially easy to do in 5e, though it's possible:
Valor Bard can combine a single melee weapon attack with a leveled spell at level 14. Given that most campaigns never reach level 14, this seems a poor choice for gishy ambitions, though it's perfectly good once it becomes available.
Eldritch Knight can combine a single weapon attack with a cantrip at level 7, with a leveled spell at level 18. Unfortunately, doing so is usually a bad idea; one cantrip plus one attack is usually less damage than two attacks at level 7-10 (unless you're using something like booming blade), and pretty much always less than three attacks at level 11+, plus you have the problem of spells being cast with a different stat than you use to hit people with swords.
Bladesinger Wizard can combine a single weapon attack with a cantrip at level 6. This is reliably better than just casting a cantrip, and depending on your attribute priorities might be better than attacking twice, but a full wizard just isn't going to be casting that many cantrips at level 6.
Honestly for me the best Gish is a ranger. Specifically a Hunter or Monster Slayer (though Horizon Walker is my favorite). If we talking hypothetical though I think a Melee focused Artificer could be an amazing Gish. I know we have Battle master and the armorer but both of those support ranged and defensive tactics. I don't think it would be out of place at all to have an artificer subclass that would be able to use spells to empower their attacks or make attacks that empower their ability to cast spells.
This^^
I dropped in to say that Horizon Walker ranger provides great optionality to a martial character. The subclass spells are great and play into the flavor. It may not be the best, but it sure is fun. I recently played a Tabaxi Horizon Walker to level 15, who used Haste to ridiculous effect and covered a ton of ground with Distant Strike and Misty Step.
I know Rangers aren't very popular, but man was that a fun build to play.
an Eldritch knight can be incredibly effective with careful choices made regarding feat selection, lineage options, attribute allocation, and spell selections.
The most important choice that needs to be made is the allocation of statistics. This choice is made at character creation which will effect every other choice taken mechanically. The choice seems to boil down to if intelligence will be invested in or not. A player has to contend with planning out spell choices that don’t rely on attributes or ones that do. An Eldritch knight who doesn’t prioritize Int may be better off with higher hitpoints or a more solid wisdom score. An Eldritch knight who makes use of intelligence for a higher spell DC has more spell choices available, but will likely have a hard time justifying the use of their action instead of attacking. This will also have a direct effect on the Eldritch knights cantrip selection. An Eldritch knight who doesn’t prioritize Intelligence will likely be better off ignoring most damaging cantrips and making choices centered around utility.
An Eldritch knights next priority should be along the lines of lineage, as there are quite a few lineage options that can supplement anything the knight would be willing to do. The hexblood is a wonderful example of a lineage that takes a lot of the pressure of being a 1/3 caster off of the Eldritch knight. You’re given a few spell options which increase as you level, one of which is the bonus action cast time spell Hex which is normally limited to the warlock class. The hex spell can go a long way when increasing the efficacy of an Eldritch knight since it scales with the fighters extra attack, action surge, and can be used with any magic weapons you might find along the way. The spells you gain can each be cast one without consuming a spell slot, so this preserves the limited slots the Eldritch knight has. the elf or half elf is also a great choice. If dexterity focused, elven accuracy can be combined with blindsight and a fog cloud to be incredibly effective. High elf and the half elf variant come with an additional wizard cantrip which can further increase utility to stretch out spell slots. the new earth genasi can be quite a tank with its ability to blade ward as a bonus action, which still leaves the Eldritch knights action available to attack. a human variant or custom lineage can make a feat selection at level 1 which can also get a head start of gaining access to spells if you want to feel more like an apprentice Eldritch knight before level 3.
feat selections are a really big choice if available, and there’s usually only 2 to 4 chances to pick them during regular levels of play. The great weapon and sharpshooter feats go well with the Eldritch knight if damage is what your looking for. Fey touched and the like give the Eldritch knight the chance to round out a mental score being half feats, either you’re DC with Int or probably Wisdom for saves and perception. If high elf was your choice then Fey teleportation might be a good choice, you don’t get additional spells aside from misty step but you get short rest castings to preserve your probably low number of 2nd level or higher slots. An underutilized feat in general, but one that can be very effective on an Eldritch knight, would be the ritual caster feat. If chosen at level 1 via lineage options, you can have a bit more time to collect rituals while you level and feel magical before you hit your subclass.
spell selections are pretty tricky but there is a prioritization that can be followed to keep the Eldritch knight feeling effective. An Eldritch knights spells known are limited in number AND also by spell school. your spells will be limited to abjuration and evocation, probably with more emphasis on abjuration. Since you’re a fighter, you will really want to leave your action alone by focusing on spells with a casting time of a Bonus Action or a Reaction. This is why the shield and absorb elements spells are so great for an Eldritch knight. Generally speaking, if you prioritize your spell selections around action castings, you will feel much less effective especially if there are other full casters in your party. The next thing you want to prioritize are spells that might have longer durations, such as find familiar. Find familiar takes a long time to cast but once it’s done, it leaves your actions alone. Mage armor might be a good choice, you could cast it on yourself, an ally, someone you’re escorting, a mount, or a pet. Protection from good and evil is a action to cast, but if it’s ever needed you’ll be glad you have it. Arcane lock can be surprisingly useful, and most wizards don’t bother with it. There’s no size limitation on the entry way so it can be used on something as small as a locket or as large as the front gate to a castle. Continual flame can be interesting depending on the environment. If a cleric isn’t in the party perhaps think about selecting it to cast on a few items and then switching out for a new spell next level. Warding wind, even though it’s an evocation spell, can be a surprisingly effective defensive spell. Dispersing gas effects can be great in a trap,. you have darkvision and are facing humanoids with torches then the effect can put those torches out. Causing ranged attacks to be made at disadvantage at targets in its area can be effective when there is no cover. Causing the area to be difficult terrain can prevent creatures from reaching the rest of your party or perhaps from making it out of a different spell effect cast by a party member.
As a damage dealer, an elven Eldritch knight using dexterity can out damage most sharpshooter or great weapon master builds if situational advantage is given when using the shadowblade spell. It can gain the bonus of the dueling fighting style and since it’s a bonus action spell it can be used to deal a lot of damage when bursting with an action surge. It’s damage scales with spell slots and the fighters higher number of attacks too.
Bobbybaker, very interesting your thoughts about the Eldritch Knight. Just a note: Although the Genasi (Earth) is interesting for an Eldritch Knight (although better for a hexblade, in my opinion, because of the synergy with Armor of Agathys), if you only want that race per blade Ward as bonus action, I think that the Shadar-kai is the better option. As a bonus action you gain resistance to all damage (not just bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing), and you can teleport 30 feet. You also have permanent resistance to necrotic damage.
Bobbybaker, very interesting your thoughts about the Eldritch Knight. Just a note: Although the Genasi (Earth) is interesting for an Eldritch Knight (although better for a hexblade, in my opinion, because of the synergy with Armor of Agathys), if you only want that race per blade Ward as bonus action, I think that the Shadar-kai is the better option. As a bonus action you gain resistance to all damage (not just bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing), and you can teleport 30 feet. You also have permanent resistance to necrotic damage.
The trade off with Shadar-kai is that the bonus action teleport to get full resistance is only once per long rest. It doesn't look like I have access to the new Genasi, but if it's not limited use, then that could be stronger than a once a day option, especially on a bonus action.
Blade Ward almost because viable on an EK when War Magic comes online at 7th as a situational defensive option while still getting an attack in. It still has difficulties with opportunity costs for both cantrip selection and the potential lost damage from extra attack. Getting it as a bonus action at least alleviates the extra attack concern, and while it doesn't affect your cantrip selection opportunity costs anymore, it still has opportunity costs to be considered from the lineage standpoint. Even without seeing exactly what the new Genasi look like in full, I know it has some stiff competition from human variant, custom lineage, elven lineages (particularly with elven accuracy coming into play), and other favorites.
Bobbybaker, very interesting your thoughts about the Eldritch Knight. Just a note: Although the Genasi (Earth) is interesting for an Eldritch Knight (although better for a hexblade, in my opinion, because of the synergy with Armor of Agathys), if you only want that race per blade Ward as bonus action, I think that the Shadar-kai is the better option. As a bonus action you gain resistance to all damage (not just bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing), and you can teleport 30 feet. You also have permanent resistance to necrotic damage.
The trade off with Shadar-kai is that the bonus action teleport to get full resistance is only once per long rest. It doesn't look like I have access to the new Genasi, but if it's not limited use, then that could be stronger than a once a day option, especially on a bonus action.
Blade Ward almost because viable on an EK when War Magic comes online at 7th as a situational defensive option while still getting an attack in. It still has difficulties with opportunity costs for both cantrip selection and the potential lost damage from extra attack. Getting it as a bonus action at least alleviates the extra attack concern, and while it doesn't affect your cantrip selection opportunity costs anymore, it still has opportunity costs to be considered from the lineage standpoint. Even without seeing exactly what the new Genasi look like in full, I know it has some stiff competition from human variant, custom lineage, elven lineages (particularly with elven accuracy coming into play), and other favorites.
Wait 15 days for Mordenkainen Presents: Monsters of the Multiverse to come out. Although the 30 playable races have already been leaked, and Shadar-kai is one of them. She can now use her ability as many times as her bonus proficiency (same as the Genasi).
He's talking about the Genasi from Mordenkainen Presents: Monsters of the Multiverse anyway, so they're both perfectly comparable.
Bladesinger's probably the best since its AC is just stupid(when bladesinging it has paladin level AC by base and can burn its low level slots on shield while upcasting its actually useful spells) and it has full caster capability on top of that, but all four are good in their own ways. Bladesinger and Arcane Trickster are more rougish types, slipping in and out of battle and relying on their relative unhittability to keep fighting(especially crucial since they both have a lot of ability scores to split between so con isnt as high on them usually) while Hexblade and Eldritch Knight are more traditional martials who just wack things over the head with a Polarm and watch it explode while using magic to assist with that.
There are other options though both in terms of single class gishes and multiclasses so dont be afraid to try ideas out. Ive been thinking of a Hexblade 3 Sorcerer X who just straight up uses a greataxe(hence hexblade 3 just to make that work) and otherwise plays as a more martially sorcerer
If Gish can be broadly interpreted as a caster that also wears decent armor and wields swords, then we could consider a Bard with an Elven Chain Shirt as a Gish. Since I enjoy playing Bards, this would be my Gish of choice. With a decent strength score and a dex of at least 14, they would get a nice AC and have strength bonuses when swinging their longsword. Of course, if a Rapier is also included among the Gish ideal, you can forego the strength score and focus more on Dex and Charisma. I Lore Bard at level 5 gets lots of benefits including Cutting Words, which can be better than a shield spell, and Font of Wisdom that recharges your pool of Bardic Inspiration. Coupled with your Elven Chain Shirt and +2 Dex bonus, you've got a pretty nice AC against one enemy. Swords and Valor Bards get other features for combat, but the Lore Bard gets that sweet Extra Magical Secrets at level 6.
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
If Gish can be broadly interpreted as a caster that also wears decent armor and wields swords, then we could consider a Bard with an Elven Chain Shirt as a Gish. Since I enjoy playing Bards, this would be my Gish of choice. With a decent strength score and a dex of at least 14, they would get a nice AC and have strength bonuses when swinging their longsword. Of course, if a Rapier is also included among the Gish ideal, you can forego the strength score and focus more on Dex and Charisma. I Lore Bard at level 5 gets lots of benefits including Cutting Words, which can be better than a shield spell, and Font of Wisdom that recharges your pool of Bardic Inspiration. Coupled with your Elven Chain Shirt and +2 Dex bonus, you've got a pretty nice AC against one enemy. Swords and Valor Bards get other features for combat, but the Lore Bard gets that sweet Extra Magical Secrets at level 6.
I understand a gish to be a character that is competant at both physical combat and magic. I would not class a character that wears heavy armor but only uses spells as a gish.
While Lore Bards are proficient with long swords they don't get any abilities that boost their martial prowess so I would not consider them a gish (or maybe a very poor gish if they insist on using a sword rather than casting spells), lore bards are designed as pure casters. Swords and Valor bards however absolutely make good Gish.
Half Casters (Rangers, Paladins and Artificers) are Gish almost by definition though the Paladins ability to use all their spell slots on smite mean that they can be players as a pure martial build.
Clerics can either be played as a Gish or as a pure caster, Forge and War in particular have feature to improve their martial prowess and therefore are the best options for a gish build
I am not sure whethere to define a moon druid as a gish, in beast form they are engaging in physical combat but only because of their magical ability to wildshape, if you count it as martial then they ar also an effective gish.
I am not sure which is "best", Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters are the most effective in the martial arts but only have a little bit of magic, while the bards, bladesingers and clerics have the most potent magic and the ability to dabble into physical combat.
If Gish can be broadly interpreted as a caster that also wears decent armor and wields swords.
The primary defining feature of a gish is fighting with both spells and weapons, and to be a 'good' gish the character should be reasonably effective with both choices, and there should be a fair number of instances in any adventure where one or the other option is preferred.
In tier 1 this applies to a lot of characters -- plenty of casters will find a weapon more effective than a cantrip, and they have few enough spell slots that they aren't going to be casting leveled spells every round -- so this really means we should look at tier 2 and higher. Which means the character needs abilities (usually extra attack) that make weapon attacks better. There honestly aren't much in the way of good options -- most of them are sufficiently superior at one to make the other not much more than an afterthought. Artificer (Armorer or Battle Smith) is probably the closest, but they wind up just being fairly mediocre with both spells and weapons.
I would argue there are plenty of good options, though mybe not as super optimised as some pure casters / martial classes.
Rangers and Paladin both get extra attacks but have options that makes spells often the best option. For example a classic ranger technique is to summon something before combat starts and then make weapon attacks alongside their summon.
All the Pact of the blade invocations ar edesigned to increase your weapon damage including getting a extra attack. While the invocations are not spells I consider them magic from a gish point of view.
Spells like Hex and Hunters mark allow weapon damage to be increased
An eldritch knight or arcane trickster defending themselves in combat by casting shield is definately a gish all be it one very much at the physical combat end of the scale.
On adventuring days with enough combat that you can not cast levelled spells every turn a bladesinger casting a cantrip and making a weapon attack as a single action is very effective. While campaign dependent that can still be very frequent in tier 2 though I do admit bladesinging gets less effective in tier 3 and 4.
Yeah where is my vote option for Paladin? It is the best gish in the game.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Initially, in 2e, a Gish was literally a multiclass of wizard (magic user) and warrior. And specifically for the githyanki. Later the term was opened up, and any character capable of using arcane magic while wielding a sword efficiently was considered a gish-type character. The concept would have to be opened much more for paladins or druids to enter. And the problem is that then we no longer know what we are talking about. So that we are all on the same page, we are going to agree that a Gish is an arcane caster who uses his magic to improve his melee fighting abilities. Thematically, a gish is different from a paladin, ranger, druid, or cleric. And archetypically he is different from an arcane archer, as they tend to melee.
Initially, in 2e, a Gish was literally a multiclass of wizard (magic user) and warrior. And specifically for the githyanki. Later the term was opened up, and any character capable of using arcane magic while wielding a sword efficiently was considered a gish-type character. The concept would have to be opened much more for paladins or druids to enter. And the problem is that then we no longer know what we are talking about. So that we are all on the same page, we are going to agree that a Gish is an arcane caster who uses his magic to improve his melee fighting abilities. Thematically, a gish is different from a paladin, ranger, druid, or cleric. And archetypically he is different from an arcane archer, as they tend to melee.
I'm glad to hear the full context. I've often wondered why Paladins and Rangers are largely excluded from "Gish" conversations, but knowing that it's a term specifically describing arcane casters does explain it.
With larger groups cancelling whenever someone can't make it can result in a LOT of missed sessions. If 5 players can all make it 90% of the time (independent of each other) there is going to be someone who can't make it nearly half the time (47%). With 3 players and a DM that goes down to 1/3 of the time but it is still pretty high. Obvious more reliable players brings it down further, if everyone makes it 95% of the time you are good to go 80% of the time, but that is a high bar (2 week on holiday and 1 week sick over a year and you are missing over 5% of a weekly game).
Most of the games I have been involved with have had 4 or 5 players plus the DM and have gone with the policy of postponing if more than one player can't make it. On average we still miss on average about 1 game in 4 either because two players or the DM can't make it. For a WestMarches style campaign then it is easily enough to have the missing player stay at base, and occassionally in a more traditional campaign that can work (the session finished at base and the next "mission" is going to be a short) but most of the time removing the PC from the party involves a suspension of belief, (after exploring a large dungeon for 3 sessions, a PC inadvertantly walks into a portal to another plane that promply disappears at the start of the next session it opens up again the the new posion the remaining party and the PC steps out). I think it is best to have the pissing player's character played by either the DM or another player and in session 0 it is made clear that while it wont be deliberate there is a slight risk of their PC dying while they are absent and they mustn't blame whoever is controlling their character if it happens.
Initially, in 2e, a Gish was literally a multiclass of wizard (magic user) and warrior. And specifically for the githyanki. Later the term was opened up, and any character capable of using arcane magic while wielding a sword efficiently was considered a gish-type character. The concept would have to be opened much more for paladins or druids to enter. And the problem is that then we no longer know what we are talking about. So that we are all on the same page, we are going to agree that a Gish is an arcane caster who uses his magic to improve his melee fighting abilities. Thematically, a gish is different from a paladin, ranger, druid, or cleric. And archetypically he is different from an arcane archer, as they tend to melee.
I'm glad to hear the full context. I've often wondered why Paladins and Rangers are largely excluded from "Gish" conversations, but knowing that it's a term specifically describing arcane casters does explain it.
Naw. Paladins in 5e absolutely can be Gishes. Whether or not it is arcane or divine isn't really the difference it is more about what kinda stuff you do with your magic. Gishes are like a combo of some stereotypical "mage" stuff like tossing around flashy magic plus then also using armor and weapons to fight with.
But in 5e paladins do that. You think a high level paladin dropping a destructive wave isn't a gish??
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I have already explained my point of view. For me a paladin is not a Gish because he doesn't use arcane magic.
If you open up the concept, it's fine. It is your opinion on a term that is not set by any language academy, so there is no problem. We're not going to argue about that.
However, as I am the OP, I wanted to clarify what I mean by Gish, and why I didn't include the Paladin. Don't call him Gish if you don't want to, but that's the archetype I was asking about: A melee fighter who uses arcane magic. A hybrid between wizard and warrior.
I have already explained my point of view. For me a paladin is not a Gish because he doesn't use arcane magic.
If you open up the concept, it's fine. It is your opinion on a term that is not set by any language academy, so there is no problem. We're not going to argue about that.
However, as I am the OP, I wanted to clarify what I mean by Gish, and why I didn't include the Paladin. Don't call him Gish if you don't want to, but that's the archetype I was asking about: A melee fighter who uses arcane magic. A hybrid between wizard and warrior.
Sure. But in 5e a paladin does that.
You can make a paladin that teleports around with misty step or dimension door. You make a paladin with armor of agathys or counterspell or elemental weapon or alls sorts or stereotypical 'wizard" spells. Literally, the 5e paladin does wizard stuff.
Like stereotypical arcane spells paladins of one subclass or another can cast:
armor of agathys
fear
stoneskin
cloudkill
dominate person
haste
sleep
counterspell
hypnotic pattern
resilient sphere
hold monster
wall of force
misty step
ice storm
see invisibility
nondetection
alarm
dimension door
hellish rebuke
darkness
confusion
Combo that with their existing melee smiting spells that are exactly what a spell infusing fighter gish concept is looking for:
searing smite
thunderous smite
wrathful smite
branding smite
blinding smite
staggering smite
banishing smite
Not to mention a plethora of other on-theme paladin spells:
detect magic
locate object
magic weapon
daylight
dispel magic
elemental weapon
magic circle
spirit shroud
destructive wave
And a ton of their in-built class function is about fighting and channeling magical power into those attacks. The smite feature is the epitome of gish-like abilities.
Subclasses even have gish-like powers:
Conquest has AOE frightened ability, or a magically guided strike ability. Plus an AOE fear/psychic damage/slow ability. This screams gish.
Devotion can make a glowing magic weapon. Like, gish much? Their aura protects from charms too. Super gish vibes through and through.
Glory is meh for gish vibes, but the magical move speed enhancement is there as something. The athletics and acrobatics stuff has potential too.
Redemption isn't super gishy, more cleric-y vibes imo.
The Ancients' resistance to all spell damage aura is fairly gish vibe.
Crown, again, cleric-y
But Watchers has some abjuration gish vibes for sure. Hedging out outsiders and bonuses to initiative. Force damage retribution ability? Gish 100%
Vengeance has fear and weapon hit stuff. Gish vibes for sure. They also have crazy good reposition and retribution abilities too.
Oathbreaker is like a necromancer gish. Undead abilities and fear effects.
Anywho. If a warrior in armor and swinging swords, teleporting around in combat, counterspelling enemies isn't a Gish. I don't agree with you what you mean by gish.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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Yeah, a simple multiclass dip would be the best way to get a Sorcerer Gish... just two levels of Paladin gets you Divine Smite, which is even more useful for a character that has access to a full spellcaster's volume of spell slots. It also opens you up to other Sorcerer Subclasses, and you could build a character that's far more versatile and viable in combat. Even dipping into Bard just to get access to rapiers and light armor would be an improvement, if a minor one.
I think it is kind of interesting that Sorcerer is the only full-caster class that doesn't have some form of melee-focused fighter. Not that every class has a GOOD melee-focused build, but it's an option for everyone but Sorcerer.
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The visual intent of a 'gish' is this guy with a sword in one hand and spell effects in the other hand, who you expect to do multiattack combining casting a spell with a sword blow. This is not something that is especially easy to do in 5e, though it's possible:
This^^
I dropped in to say that Horizon Walker ranger provides great optionality to a martial character. The subclass spells are great and play into the flavor. It may not be the best, but it sure is fun. I recently played a Tabaxi Horizon Walker to level 15, who used Haste to ridiculous effect and covered a ton of ground with Distant Strike and Misty Step.
I know Rangers aren't very popular, but man was that a fun build to play.
I also second Artificer.
an Eldritch knight can be incredibly effective with careful choices made regarding feat selection, lineage options, attribute allocation, and spell selections.
The most important choice that needs to be made is the allocation of statistics. This choice is made at character creation which will effect every other choice taken mechanically. The choice seems to boil down to if intelligence will be invested in or not. A player has to contend with planning out spell choices that don’t rely on attributes or ones that do. An Eldritch knight who doesn’t prioritize Int may be better off with higher hitpoints or a more solid wisdom score. An Eldritch knight who makes use of intelligence for a higher spell DC has more spell choices available, but will likely have a hard time justifying the use of their action instead of attacking. This will also have a direct effect on the Eldritch knights cantrip selection. An Eldritch knight who doesn’t prioritize Intelligence will likely be better off ignoring most damaging cantrips and making choices centered around utility.
An Eldritch knights next priority should be along the lines of lineage, as there are quite a few lineage options that can supplement anything the knight would be willing to do. The hexblood is a wonderful example of a lineage that takes a lot of the pressure of being a 1/3 caster off of the Eldritch knight. You’re given a few spell options which increase as you level, one of which is the bonus action cast time spell Hex which is normally limited to the warlock class. The hex spell can go a long way when increasing the efficacy of an Eldritch knight since it scales with the fighters extra attack, action surge, and can be used with any magic weapons you might find along the way. The spells you gain can each be cast one without consuming a spell slot, so this preserves the limited slots the Eldritch knight has.
the elf or half elf is also a great choice. If dexterity focused, elven accuracy can be combined with blindsight and a fog cloud to be incredibly effective. High elf and the half elf variant come with an additional wizard cantrip which can further increase utility to stretch out spell slots.
the new earth genasi can be quite a tank with its ability to blade ward as a bonus action, which still leaves the Eldritch knights action available to attack.
a human variant or custom lineage can make a feat selection at level 1 which can also get a head start of gaining access to spells if you want to feel more like an apprentice Eldritch knight before level 3.
feat selections are a really big choice if available, and there’s usually only 2 to 4 chances to pick them during regular levels of play. The great weapon and sharpshooter feats go well with the Eldritch knight if damage is what your looking for. Fey touched and the like give the Eldritch knight the chance to round out a mental score being half feats, either you’re DC with Int or probably Wisdom for saves and perception. If high elf was your choice then Fey teleportation might be a good choice, you don’t get additional spells aside from misty step but you get short rest castings to preserve your probably low number of 2nd level or higher slots. An underutilized feat in general, but one that can be very effective on an Eldritch knight, would be the ritual caster feat. If chosen at level 1 via lineage options, you can have a bit more time to collect rituals while you level and feel magical before you hit your subclass.
spell selections are pretty tricky but there is a prioritization that can be followed to keep the Eldritch knight feeling effective. An Eldritch knights spells known are limited in number AND also by spell school. your spells will be limited to abjuration and evocation, probably with more emphasis on abjuration. Since you’re a fighter, you will really want to leave your action alone by focusing on spells with a casting time of a Bonus Action or a Reaction. This is why the shield and absorb elements spells are so great for an Eldritch knight. Generally speaking, if you prioritize your spell selections around action castings, you will feel much less effective especially if there are other full casters in your party. The next thing you want to prioritize are spells that might have longer durations, such as find familiar. Find familiar takes a long time to cast but once it’s done, it leaves your actions alone. Mage armor might be a good choice, you could cast it on yourself, an ally, someone you’re escorting, a mount, or a pet. Protection from good and evil is a action to cast, but if it’s ever needed you’ll be glad you have it. Arcane lock can be surprisingly useful, and most wizards don’t bother with it. There’s no size limitation on the entry way so it can be used on something as small as a locket or as large as the front gate to a castle. Continual flame can be interesting depending on the environment. If a cleric isn’t in the party perhaps think about selecting it to cast on a few items and then switching out for a new spell next level. Warding wind, even though it’s an evocation spell, can be a surprisingly effective defensive spell. Dispersing gas effects can be great in a trap,. you have darkvision and are facing humanoids with torches then the effect can put those torches out. Causing ranged attacks to be made at disadvantage at targets in its area can be effective when there is no cover. Causing the area to be difficult terrain can prevent creatures from reaching the rest of your party or perhaps from making it out of a different spell effect cast by a party member.
As a damage dealer, an elven Eldritch knight using dexterity can out damage most sharpshooter or great weapon master builds if situational advantage is given when using the shadowblade spell. It can gain the bonus of the dueling fighting style and since it’s a bonus action spell it can be used to deal a lot of damage when bursting with an action surge. It’s damage scales with spell slots and the fighters higher number of attacks too.
Bobbybaker, very interesting your thoughts about the Eldritch Knight. Just a note: Although the Genasi (Earth) is interesting for an Eldritch Knight (although better for a hexblade, in my opinion, because of the synergy with Armor of Agathys), if you only want that race per blade Ward as bonus action, I think that the Shadar-kai is the better option. As a bonus action you gain resistance to all damage (not just bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing), and you can teleport 30 feet. You also have permanent resistance to necrotic damage.
The trade off with Shadar-kai is that the bonus action teleport to get full resistance is only once per long rest. It doesn't look like I have access to the new Genasi, but if it's not limited use, then that could be stronger than a once a day option, especially on a bonus action.
Blade Ward almost because viable on an EK when War Magic comes online at 7th as a situational defensive option while still getting an attack in. It still has difficulties with opportunity costs for both cantrip selection and the potential lost damage from extra attack. Getting it as a bonus action at least alleviates the extra attack concern, and while it doesn't affect your cantrip selection opportunity costs anymore, it still has opportunity costs to be considered from the lineage standpoint. Even without seeing exactly what the new Genasi look like in full, I know it has some stiff competition from human variant, custom lineage, elven lineages (particularly with elven accuracy coming into play), and other favorites.
Wait 15 days for Mordenkainen Presents: Monsters of the Multiverse to come out. Although the 30 playable races have already been leaked, and Shadar-kai is one of them. She can now use her ability as many times as her bonus proficiency (same as the Genasi).
He's talking about the Genasi from Mordenkainen Presents: Monsters of the Multiverse anyway, so they're both perfectly comparable.
Bladesinger's probably the best since its AC is just stupid(when bladesinging it has paladin level AC by base and can burn its low level slots on shield while upcasting its actually useful spells) and it has full caster capability on top of that, but all four are good in their own ways. Bladesinger and Arcane Trickster are more rougish types, slipping in and out of battle and relying on their relative unhittability to keep fighting(especially crucial since they both have a lot of ability scores to split between so con isnt as high on them usually) while Hexblade and Eldritch Knight are more traditional martials who just wack things over the head with a Polarm and watch it explode while using magic to assist with that.
There are other options though both in terms of single class gishes and multiclasses so dont be afraid to try ideas out. Ive been thinking of a Hexblade 3 Sorcerer X who just straight up uses a greataxe(hence hexblade 3 just to make that work) and otherwise plays as a more martially sorcerer
If Gish can be broadly interpreted as a caster that also wears decent armor and wields swords, then we could consider a Bard with an Elven Chain Shirt as a Gish. Since I enjoy playing Bards, this would be my Gish of choice. With a decent strength score and a dex of at least 14, they would get a nice AC and have strength bonuses when swinging their longsword. Of course, if a Rapier is also included among the Gish ideal, you can forego the strength score and focus more on Dex and Charisma. I Lore Bard at level 5 gets lots of benefits including Cutting Words, which can be better than a shield spell, and Font of Wisdom that recharges your pool of Bardic Inspiration. Coupled with your Elven Chain Shirt and +2 Dex bonus, you've got a pretty nice AC against one enemy. Swords and Valor Bards get other features for combat, but the Lore Bard gets that sweet Extra Magical Secrets at level 6.
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Moon Druid being able to cast spells at level 15 is amazing.
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I understand a gish to be a character that is competant at both physical combat and magic. I would not class a character that wears heavy armor but only uses spells as a gish.
While Lore Bards are proficient with long swords they don't get any abilities that boost their martial prowess so I would not consider them a gish (or maybe a very poor gish if they insist on using a sword rather than casting spells), lore bards are designed as pure casters. Swords and Valor bards however absolutely make good Gish.
Half Casters (Rangers, Paladins and Artificers) are Gish almost by definition though the Paladins ability to use all their spell slots on smite mean that they can be players as a pure martial build.
Clerics can either be played as a Gish or as a pure caster, Forge and War in particular have feature to improve their martial prowess and therefore are the best options for a gish build
I am not sure whethere to define a moon druid as a gish, in beast form they are engaging in physical combat but only because of their magical ability to wildshape, if you count it as martial then they ar also an effective gish.
I am not sure which is "best", Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters are the most effective in the martial arts but only have a little bit of magic, while the bards, bladesingers and clerics have the most potent magic and the ability to dabble into physical combat.
The primary defining feature of a gish is fighting with both spells and weapons, and to be a 'good' gish the character should be reasonably effective with both choices, and there should be a fair number of instances in any adventure where one or the other option is preferred.
In tier 1 this applies to a lot of characters -- plenty of casters will find a weapon more effective than a cantrip, and they have few enough spell slots that they aren't going to be casting leveled spells every round -- so this really means we should look at tier 2 and higher. Which means the character needs abilities (usually extra attack) that make weapon attacks better. There honestly aren't much in the way of good options -- most of them are sufficiently superior at one to make the other not much more than an afterthought. Artificer (Armorer or Battle Smith) is probably the closest, but they wind up just being fairly mediocre with both spells and weapons.
I would argue there are plenty of good options, though mybe not as super optimised as some pure casters / martial classes.
Yeah where is my vote option for Paladin? It is the best gish in the game.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Initially, in 2e, a Gish was literally a multiclass of wizard (magic user) and warrior. And specifically for the githyanki.
Later the term was opened up, and any character capable of using arcane magic while wielding a sword efficiently was considered a gish-type character.
The concept would have to be opened much more for paladins or druids to enter. And the problem is that then we no longer know what we are talking about.
So that we are all on the same page, we are going to agree that a Gish is an arcane caster who uses his magic to improve his melee fighting abilities.
Thematically, a gish is different from a paladin, ranger, druid, or cleric. And archetypically he is different from an arcane archer, as they tend to melee.
I'm glad to hear the full context. I've often wondered why Paladins and Rangers are largely excluded from "Gish" conversations, but knowing that it's a term specifically describing arcane casters does explain it.
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With larger groups cancelling whenever someone can't make it can result in a LOT of missed sessions. If 5 players can all make it 90% of the time (independent of each other) there is going to be someone who can't make it nearly half the time (47%). With 3 players and a DM that goes down to 1/3 of the time but it is still pretty high. Obvious more reliable players brings it down further, if everyone makes it 95% of the time you are good to go 80% of the time, but that is a high bar (2 week on holiday and 1 week sick over a year and you are missing over 5% of a weekly game).
Most of the games I have been involved with have had 4 or 5 players plus the DM and have gone with the policy of postponing if more than one player can't make it. On average we still miss on average about 1 game in 4 either because two players or the DM can't make it. For a WestMarches style campaign then it is easily enough to have the missing player stay at base, and occassionally in a more traditional campaign that can work (the session finished at base and the next "mission" is going to be a short) but most of the time removing the PC from the party involves a suspension of belief, (after exploring a large dungeon for 3 sessions, a PC inadvertantly walks into a portal to another plane that promply disappears at the start of the next session it opens up again the the new posion the remaining party and the PC steps out). I think it is best to have the pissing player's character played by either the DM or another player and in session 0 it is made clear that while it wont be deliberate there is a slight risk of their PC dying while they are absent and they mustn't blame whoever is controlling their character if it happens.
Naw. Paladins in 5e absolutely can be Gishes. Whether or not it is arcane or divine isn't really the difference it is more about what kinda stuff you do with your magic. Gishes are like a combo of some stereotypical "mage" stuff like tossing around flashy magic plus then also using armor and weapons to fight with.
But in 5e paladins do that. You think a high level paladin dropping a destructive wave isn't a gish??
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I have already explained my point of view. For me a paladin is not a Gish because he doesn't use arcane magic.
If you open up the concept, it's fine. It is your opinion on a term that is not set by any language academy, so there is no problem. We're not going to argue about that.
However, as I am the OP, I wanted to clarify what I mean by Gish, and why I didn't include the Paladin. Don't call him Gish if you don't want to, but that's the archetype I was asking about: A melee fighter who uses arcane magic. A hybrid between wizard and warrior.
Sure. But in 5e a paladin does that.
You can make a paladin that teleports around with misty step or dimension door. You make a paladin with armor of agathys or counterspell or elemental weapon or alls sorts or stereotypical 'wizard" spells. Literally, the 5e paladin does wizard stuff.
Like stereotypical arcane spells paladins of one subclass or another can cast:
Combo that with their existing melee smiting spells that are exactly what a spell infusing fighter gish concept is looking for:
Not to mention a plethora of other on-theme paladin spells:
And a ton of their in-built class function is about fighting and channeling magical power into those attacks. The smite feature is the epitome of gish-like abilities.
Subclasses even have gish-like powers:
Anywho. If a warrior in armor and swinging swords, teleporting around in combat, counterspelling enemies isn't a Gish. I don't agree with you what you mean by gish.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.