Personally speaking, I would rule that A level 4 PC who has 3/1 or 2/2 can't take a Feat until hitting level 4 in one of their classes. I would also rule that a multi-class character gets an Epic Boon at total level 19, even though they are not level 19 in one class. But I would absolutely forbid anyone from taking two Epic Boons at 19, which is absolutely an unintended exploitation of a very specific reading, and I believe that any GM who allows multiple epic boons for reaching level 19 is doing it very incorrectly.
I think you misunderstood... everything. You're right that you have to be level 4 in a class to take a feat, I just don't see anyone claiming otherwise. Also, nobody is claiming you can get two epic boons at 19, they're claiming you can get one at 19 and one at 20. (maybe you meant that and wrote differently?)
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Personally speaking, I would rule that A level 4 PC who has 3/1 or 2/2 can't take a Feat until hitting level 4 in one of their classes. I would also rule that a multi-class character gets an Epic Boon at total level 19, even though they are not level 19 in one class. But I would absolutely forbid anyone from taking two Epic Boons at 19, which is absolutely an unintended exploitation of a very specific reading, and I believe that any GM who allows multiple epic boons for reaching level 19 is doing it very incorrectly.
I think you misunderstood... everything. You're right that you have to be level 4 in a class to take a feat, I just don't see anyone claiming otherwise. Also, nobody is claiming you can get two epic boons at 19, they're claiming you can get one at 19 and one at 20. (maybe you meant that and wrote differently?)
Okay. I as a GM would not allow any player to take an Epic Boon at 19 and a second one at 20, even if they can get a feat at that level because a second class gets to a level where they can take a feat. They would have to take a plain old normal non-Epic Boon instead. I think that any GM who allows players to take an Epic Boon at 19 and one at 20 in that way is doing it wrong.
It is impossible to call changing rules slightly a wrong way to dm. The dm created the world. The dm does the most work. The dm can only be wrong if they are actively trying to ruin the players' fun.
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(And, of course, Dragon Tamer. It is in the name, after all)
PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD CUT YOUR QUOTE CHAINS EARLIER IM ON MOBILE AND ITS HELL TO SCROLL THROUGH THEM
Personally speaking, I would rule that A level 4 PC who has 3/1 or 2/2 can't take a Feat until hitting level 4 in one of their classes. I would also rule that a multi-class character gets an Epic Boon at total level 19, even though they are not level 19 in one class. But I would absolutely forbid anyone from taking two Epic Boons at 19, which is absolutely an unintended exploitation of a very specific reading, and I believe that any GM who allows multiple epic boons for reaching level 19 is doing it very incorrectly.
I think you misunderstood... everything. You're right that you have to be level 4 in a class to take a feat, I just don't see anyone claiming otherwise. Also, nobody is claiming you can get two epic boons at 19, they're claiming you can get one at 19 and one at 20. (maybe you meant that and wrote differently?)
Okay. I as a GM would not allow any player to take an Epic Boon at 19 and a second one at 20, even if they can get a feat at that level because a second class gets to a level where they can take a feat. They would have to take a plain old normal non-Epic Boon instead. I think that any GM who allows players to take an Epic Boon at 19 and one at 20 in that way is doing it wrong.
Happy now?
Your game, your call. I would suggest considering if you are being too severe though.
However, before you change the RAW, be aware that there is no indicator that RAI is to disallow 2 Epic Feats and that by splitting classes 16/4 to get one, the main class loses quite a bit. And that RAW is that every 30,000 experience after 20, you get another Epic Boon.
Artificer loses 5th level spells, reduced infusions and infusions known, an extra attuned item (increasing the number to 6), and Soul of Artifice (including potentially a +6 to all saves)
Barbarian loses Improved Brutal Strike, Indomitable Might (this is crazy with the endcap), and Primal Champion (+4 to Strength and Constitution up to 25).
Bard loses 9th level spells and reduced 6th and 7th level spells, Superior Inspiration (always have at least 2 uses of Bardic Inspiration at the start of combat), and Words of Creation (Power Word Heal and Power Word Kill but they affect two targets!).
Cleric loses 9th level spells and reduced 5th through 7th level spells, the level 17 Subclass Feature, Greater Divine Intervention (a free Wish once ever 2d4 Long Rests)
Druid loses 9th level spells and reduced 5th through 7th level spells, Beast Spells, and Archdruid (Always have a wild shape use at combat start and can convert wild shape into spell slots). Additionally, having a lower Druid level impacts the effectiveness of Wild Shape.
Fighter loses Indomitable, a second Action Surge, the level 18 Subclass Feature, and an extra attack (increasing the attacks per attack action from 3 to 4).
Monk loses an increased Martial Arts Die (d10 to d12), +5 ft of movement, 4 Focus Points, the 17th level Subclass Feature, Superior Defense (3 Focus to gain Resistance to all damage except Force Damage for 1 minute), and Body and Mind (+4 Dexterity and Wisdom up to 25).
Paladin loses 5th level spells, loses Aura Expansion, and their 20th level Subclass Feature (which are often about damaging or debuffing enemies in the Aura and buffing you with varying uses, usually 1, and durations, and usually 10 minutes.)
Ranger loses 5th level spells, Precise Hunter (Advantage to attacks versus Hunter's Mark target), Feral Senses (Blindsight), and Foe Slayer (Improved Hunter's Mark damage).
Rogue loses the 17th level subclass feature, Elusive (no attacks against you have Advantage unless you are incapacitated), and Stroke of Luck (once per any rest, you can turn a failed d20 test into a 20).
Sorcerer loses 9th level spells and reduced 5th through 7th level spells, 4 Sorcery Points, 2 Metamagic options, the level 18 Subclass Feature, Arcane Apotheosis (Metamagic one spell per turn without Sorcery Points while Innate Sorcery is active).
Warlock loses their 9th level spell via Mystic Arcanum, 1 Invocation, 1 Spell Slot, and Eldritch Master (Magical Cunning restores all spell slots instead of just half)
Wizard loses 9th level spells and reduced 5th through 7th level spells, Spell Mastery (Cast a chosen first or second level spell to cast at will), and Signature Spells (Choose 2 level 3 spells and cast them once per long rest with using a slot. Can cast them with slots normally.).
The spellcasting slots can be offset if you multiclass into another spellcasting class, but you still lose access to your highest level spells. A 16 Wizard/4 Sorcerer can't cast Wish.
I can't think of any Epic Boons that are more powerful than those last 4 levels, even counting what can be gained by dipping into one other class for four levels.
I'm just saying that I do not think it would be at all fair for a single-classed character to get one Epic Boon by 20, and a multi-classed character to get two Epic Boons, even if they're missing out on the level 20 capstone. So for that reason alone, I would disallow that loophole.
In any case, this is mostly just theory-crafting, because how many games take place at 19 or 20 or reach there? Not many.
I'm just saying that I do not think it would be at all fair for a single-classed character to get one Epic Boon by 20, and a multi-classed character to get two Epic Boons, even if they're missing out on the level 20 capstone. So for that reason alone, I would disallow that loophole.
In any case, this is mostly just theory-crafting, because how many games take place at 19 or 20 or reach there? Not many.
Yes, most games that start at level 1 won't reach level 20, let alone spend tens of thousands of experience on multiple Epic Boons. However, some may start higher. (For example, a group formed to play Vecna: Eve of Ruin might start at 10 and is much more likely to reach 20.) Change what you want at your table, but I always advocate understanding the change you are making.
Most multiclass characters are multiclassing for an unorthodox approach (such as a Paladin dipping into Warlock for Pact of the Blade in order to focus on Charisma instead of Strength or Dexterity) and taking 4 levels from your primary class is a hard sell because of the lost abilities I mentioned above. The Capstone is one of the losses, but some of the Capstones are very lackluster and it is the level 17+ perks or the spell casting that really hurt in that dip.
I would consider casting Wish multiple times via a Simulacrum to give up to 10 creatures permanent Resistance to multiple Damage Types, for example, to be far more potent. In fact, by RAW you can Wish to replace any of your feats with Epic Boons as long you meet the requirements at the time of casting the spell (as soon as you are level 19). You would ban a RAW method to gain 2 Epic Boons by level 20, when a single class character by level 19 can potentially have 5.
So, again, do what you want at your table, but make sure you understand the real impact and make sure you aren't needlessly cutting out fun for your players. If they got to level 19 or level 20, I would advocate for letting them enjoy the fact that they are one of the greatest, if not the greatest, examples of adventurers can accomplish things others cannot.
Skill monkey character concept turns into a discussion on epic boons.
So, we have a scout rogue and lore bard. On top of which, seems like a strong chance you don’t even have sudden strike as a scout on account of lore bard levels. And if you go for reliable talent no matter what you cannot go for peerless skill to be a super saiyan level of skill monkey.
So, your skill monkey character who is literally proficient in everything, which probably translates into a personality of tries to do everything out of combat and is a know it all and show off and etc.
cannot imagine it’s too fun to play at a table alongside this char. Cannot imagine as a dm it’s too fun trying to find a way to prevent this character from stealing the spotlight all the time and making the game interesting and fun for everyone.
i cannot imagine too many scenarios to give this character a chance to level high enough to get the epic boons. So it all seems like a moot point to me personally.
I see this character being as party compatible as this character:
cannot imagine it’s too fun to play at a table alongside this char. Cannot imagine as a dm it’s too fun trying to find a way to prevent this character from stealing the spotlight all the time and making the game interesting and fun for everyone.
i cannot imagine too many scenarios to give this character a chance to level high enough to get the epic boons. So it all seems like a moot point to me personally.
I see this character being as party compatible as this character:
There's definitely a few scenarios where it'll work, but they're not scenarios that would fit everyone's play style. If there's a group where one or two players only want to optimize combat, they can be a Wizard and a Fighter and they can protect the skill monkey while the skillet fiddles with all sorts of traps and puzzles. Players and DMs can cater the game however they want, and just because it's something you wouldn't do doesn't mean there's never going to be a person who enjoys it.
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I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
cannot imagine it’s too fun to play at a table alongside this char. Cannot imagine as a dm it’s too fun trying to find a way to prevent this character from stealing the spotlight all the time and making the game interesting and fun for everyone.
i cannot imagine too many scenarios to give this character a chance to level high enough to get the epic boons. So it all seems like a moot point to me personally.
I see this character being as party compatible as this character:
There's definitely a few scenarios where it'll work, but they're not scenarios that would fit everyone's play style. If there's a group where one or two players only want to optimize combat, they can be a Wizard and a Fighter and they can protect the skill monkey while the skillet fiddles with all sorts of traps and puzzles. Players and DMs can cater the game however they want, and just because it's something you wouldn't do doesn't mean there's never going to be a person who enjoys it.
Yes. You have taken time to reiterate everything I said, and drawn it out in further explanation, to not contribute any new information. Thank you for further clarifying my post for me.
to get on top of it before more come out doing the same: the link to “Absurd”, is the same thing. There will be people who enjoy it, and have no problem playing alongside those people, I cannot imagine too many. But they exist.
oversimplified summary now seems necessary:
there’s always a game for anyone and everything.
edit: (response done in the manner of someone proficient in everything talking to a commoner)
I think you misunderstood... everything. You're right that you have to be level 4 in a class to take a feat, I just don't see anyone claiming otherwise. Also, nobody is claiming you can get two epic boons at 19, they're claiming you can get one at 19 and one at 20. (maybe you meant that and wrote differently?)
Homebrew: dominance, The Necrotic
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Okay. I as a GM would not allow any player to take an Epic Boon at 19 and a second one at 20, even if they can get a feat at that level because a second class gets to a level where they can take a feat. They would have to take a plain old normal non-Epic Boon instead. I think that any GM who allows players to take an Epic Boon at 19 and one at 20 in that way is doing it wrong.
Happy now?
It is impossible to call changing rules slightly a wrong way to dm. The dm created the world. The dm does the most work. The dm can only be wrong if they are actively trying to ruin the players' fun.
Pokemon Master, Hero of Hyrule, Jedi Knight, Minecrafter, Celestial Being Beyond Comprehension, Bounty Hunter, Salmon Runner, Nailmaster, Yarn Yoshi Enjoyer, Animal Lover, Math Rock Roller, Nerd King in all Aspects.
(And, of course, Dragon Tamer. It is in the name, after all)
PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD CUT YOUR QUOTE CHAINS EARLIER IM ON MOBILE AND ITS HELL TO SCROLL THROUGH THEM
Your game, your call. I would suggest considering if you are being too severe though.
However, before you change the RAW, be aware that there is no indicator that RAI is to disallow 2 Epic Feats and that by splitting classes 16/4 to get one, the main class loses quite a bit. And that RAW is that every 30,000 experience after 20, you get another Epic Boon.
The spellcasting slots can be offset if you multiclass into another spellcasting class, but you still lose access to your highest level spells. A 16 Wizard/4 Sorcerer can't cast Wish.
I can't think of any Epic Boons that are more powerful than those last 4 levels, even counting what can be gained by dipping into one other class for four levels.
How to add Tooltips.
I'm just saying that I do not think it would be at all fair for a single-classed character to get one Epic Boon by 20, and a multi-classed character to get two Epic Boons, even if they're missing out on the level 20 capstone. So for that reason alone, I would disallow that loophole.
In any case, this is mostly just theory-crafting, because how many games take place at 19 or 20 or reach there? Not many.
Yes, most games that start at level 1 won't reach level 20, let alone spend tens of thousands of experience on multiple Epic Boons. However, some may start higher. (For example, a group formed to play Vecna: Eve of Ruin might start at 10 and is much more likely to reach 20.) Change what you want at your table, but I always advocate understanding the change you are making.
Most multiclass characters are multiclassing for an unorthodox approach (such as a Paladin dipping into Warlock for Pact of the Blade in order to focus on Charisma instead of Strength or Dexterity) and taking 4 levels from your primary class is a hard sell because of the lost abilities I mentioned above. The Capstone is one of the losses, but some of the Capstones are very lackluster and it is the level 17+ perks or the spell casting that really hurt in that dip.
I would consider casting Wish multiple times via a Simulacrum to give up to 10 creatures permanent Resistance to multiple Damage Types, for example, to be far more potent. In fact, by RAW you can Wish to replace any of your feats with Epic Boons as long you meet the requirements at the time of casting the spell (as soon as you are level 19). You would ban a RAW method to gain 2 Epic Boons by level 20, when a single class character by level 19 can potentially have 5.
So, again, do what you want at your table, but make sure you understand the real impact and make sure you aren't needlessly cutting out fun for your players. If they got to level 19 or level 20, I would advocate for letting them enjoy the fact that they are one of the greatest, if not the greatest, examples of adventurers can accomplish things others cannot.
How to add Tooltips.
Skill monkey character concept turns into a discussion on epic boons.
So, we have a scout rogue and lore bard. On top of which, seems like a strong chance you don’t even have sudden strike as a scout on account of lore bard levels. And if you go for reliable talent no matter what you cannot go for peerless skill to be a super saiyan level of skill monkey.
So, your skill monkey character who is literally proficient in everything, which probably translates into a personality of tries to do everything out of combat and is a know it all and show off and etc.
cannot imagine it’s too fun to play at a table alongside this char. Cannot imagine as a dm it’s too fun trying to find a way to prevent this character from stealing the spotlight all the time and making the game interesting and fun for everyone.
i cannot imagine too many scenarios to give this character a chance to level high enough to get the epic boons. So it all seems like a moot point to me personally.
I see this character being as party compatible as this character:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZCIh_3b5K8
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There's definitely a few scenarios where it'll work, but they're not scenarios that would fit everyone's play style. If there's a group where one or two players only want to optimize combat, they can be a Wizard and a Fighter and they can protect the skill monkey while the skillet fiddles with all sorts of traps and puzzles. Players and DMs can cater the game however they want, and just because it's something you wouldn't do doesn't mean there's never going to be a person who enjoys it.
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
Yes. You have taken time to reiterate everything I said, and drawn it out in further explanation, to not contribute any new information. Thank you for further clarifying my post for me.
to get on top of it before more come out doing the same: the link to “Absurd”, is the same thing. There will be people who enjoy it, and have no problem playing alongside those people, I cannot imagine too many. But they exist.
oversimplified summary now seems necessary:
there’s always a game for anyone and everything.
edit: (response done in the manner of someone proficient in everything talking to a commoner)
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