Just a fun build and with more sources available to us, I figured I make a character who can do it all!
Very simple and not too much multiclassing:
Variant human (any 1 skill) with the Skilled feat (any 3 skills) and Sage background for the arcana and history skills. Start off 3 levels as a Rogue, getting 4 skills from the set list. Go Scout as the subclass, giving us the nature and survival skills.
Next take 3 levels in Bard, going into the College of Lore subclass. Multiclassing into Bard gives us proficiency in any 1 skill and 3 more from the subclass.
Lastly, you can go level 4 in either class since we already got the spellcasting from Bard. This will allow us to get the Eldritch Adept feat, giving us an evocation and we will choose the beguiling influence, giving us the deception and persuasion skills.
All this will give us proficiency in all 18 skills by level 7. Ive seen older forums where 3 classes were involved but because of tasha's, we dont need to now.
The trade off, you've lost access to an epic boon and single class cap stone. Could be worth the RP fun if you know it is a campaign that is never going that far.
The trade off, you've lost access to an epic boon and single class cap stone. Could be worth the RP fun if you know it is a campaign that is never going that far.
As far as I am aware, there is no requirement to get the epic boon class feature to pick up epic boons (despite the naming implying that), the only perquisite too Epic Boons is level 19+, which means a 16/4 or 12/8 multiclass character can technically pick up two epic boons. As far as I am aware at least. You would lose access to capstone obviously but most capstones aren't that game changing enough to worry about more so if you get two epic boons in that place instead.
The trade off, you've lost access to an epic boon and single class cap stone. Could be worth the RP fun if you know it is a campaign that is never going that far.
As far as I am aware, there is no requirement to get the epic boon class feature to pick up epic boons (despite the naming implying that), the only perquisite too Epic Boons is level 19+, which means a 16/4 or 12/8 multiclass character can technically pick up two epic boons. As far as I am aware at least. You would lose access to capstone obviously but most capstones aren't that game changing enough to worry about more so if you get two epic boons in that place instead.
100% right. I've seen tons of builds that grab multiple Epic Boons since the only prerequisite is Level 19+.
The trade off, you've lost access to an epic boon and single class cap stone. Could be worth the RP fun if you know it is a campaign that is never going that far.
As far as I am aware, there is no requirement to get the epic boon class feature to pick up epic boons (despite the naming implying that), the only perquisite too Epic Boons is level 19+, which means a 16/4 or 12/8 multiclass character can technically pick up two epic boons. As far as I am aware at least. You would lose access to capstone obviously but most capstones aren't that game changing enough to worry about more so if you get two epic boons in that place instead.
Epic Boons have the same issue that Ability score requirement increases have, they are the same type of boost.
SAGE ADVICE:
Are ability score improvements class-level dependent, rather than total level?
Ability score improvements are based on your level in a particular class, not your total character level if you multiclass. For instance, if you’re a 4th-level multiclass character, you haven’t yet received the Ability Score Improvement feature because you haven’t attained 4th level in one of your classes.
So level 1 in one class, and level 3 in another class. You don't get an ability score boost... until you reach 4 levels in one or the other. Same with 8, etc, and Boons. That is one of the drawbacks of multi-classing. And multiple boons is just exploiting.
The trade off, you've lost access to an epic boon and single class cap stone. Could be worth the RP fun if you know it is a campaign that is never going that far.
As far as I am aware, there is no requirement to get the epic boon class feature to pick up epic boons (despite the naming implying that), the only perquisite too Epic Boons is level 19+, which means a 16/4 or 12/8 multiclass character can technically pick up two epic boons. As far as I am aware at least. You would lose access to capstone obviously but most capstones aren't that game changing enough to worry about more so if you get two epic boons in that place instead.
Epic Boons have the same issue that Ability score requirement increases have, they are the same type of boost.
SAGE ADVICE:
Are ability score improvements class-level dependent, rather than total level?
Ability score improvements are based on your level in a particular class, not your total character level if you multiclass. For instance, if you’re a 4th-level multiclass character, you haven’t yet received the Ability Score Improvement feature because you haven’t attained 4th level in one of your classes.
So level 1 in one class, and level 3 in another class. You don't get an ability score boost... until you reach 4 levels in one or the other. Same with 8, etc, and Boons. That is one of the drawbacks of multi-classing. And multiple boons is just exploiting.
It's not exploiting, you weaken yourself quiet a bit in the mid tiers taking such an approach and at level 20, epic boons are basically progression for stronger creatures.
The trade off, you've lost access to an epic boon and single class cap stone. Could be worth the RP fun if you know it is a campaign that is never going that far.
As far as I am aware, there is no requirement to get the epic boon class feature to pick up epic boons (despite the naming implying that), the only perquisite too Epic Boons is level 19+, which means a 16/4 or 12/8 multiclass character can technically pick up two epic boons. As far as I am aware at least. You would lose access to capstone obviously but most capstones aren't that game changing enough to worry about more so if you get two epic boons in that place instead.
Epic Boons have the same issue that Ability score requirement increases have, they are the same type of boost.
SAGE ADVICE:
Are ability score improvements class-level dependent, rather than total level?
Ability score improvements are based on your level in a particular class, not your total character level if you multiclass. For instance, if you’re a 4th-level multiclass character, you haven’t yet received the Ability Score Improvement feature because you haven’t attained 4th level in one of your classes.
So level 1 in one class, and level 3 in another class. You don't get an ability score boost... until you reach 4 levels in one or the other. Same with 8, etc, and Boons. That is one of the drawbacks of multi-classing. And multiple boons is just exploiting.
It's not exploiting, you weaken yourself quiet a bit in the mid tiers taking such an approach and at level 20, epic boons are basically progression for stronger creatures.
No it is exploiting. You want to get them by grabbing again through ability gains that are limited by class, but don't want to follow the limited by class portion. Its a blatant exploit. No you don't get the have your cake, and eat it too, and eat another cake when you multi-class. The tradeoff to gaining the low level abilities of other classes that make great combos with another class is that you don't get high level features of your main class... including Epic Boons.
The trade off, you've lost access to an epic boon and single class cap stone. Could be worth the RP fun if you know it is a campaign that is never going that far.
As far as I am aware, there is no requirement to get the epic boon class feature to pick up epic boons (despite the naming implying that), the only perquisite too Epic Boons is level 19+, which means a 16/4 or 12/8 multiclass character can technically pick up two epic boons. As far as I am aware at least. You would lose access to capstone obviously but most capstones aren't that game changing enough to worry about more so if you get two epic boons in that place instead.
Not only this but once you hit level 20, any can gain Epic Boon feats every 30,000 exp.
So level 1 in one class, and level 3 in another class. You don't get an ability score boost... until you reach 4 levels in one or the other. Same with 8, etc, and Boons. That is one of the drawbacks of multi-classing. And multiple boons is just exploiting.
Category. A feat is a member of a category, which is noted in the feat. If you’re instructed to choose a feat from a specific category, such as the Origin category, that category must appear under the feat’s name. If you’re instructed to choose a feat and no category is specified, you can choose from any category.
Now let's look at the ASI and Epic Boon Class Features.
Level 4: Ability Score Improvement
You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat (see chapter 5) or another feat of your choice for which you qualify. You gain this feature again at Fighter levels 6, 8, 12, 14, and 16.
Level 19: Epic Boon
You gain an Epic Boon feat (see chapter 5) or another feat of your choice for which you qualify. Boon of Combat Prowess is recommended.
In both cases, you are directed to take a feat that you qualify for and no category is specified so all feat categories are available. Technically, as a level 4 single class character, you are eligible to choose feats from the Epic Boon Category, but you will not qualify for any of them. The only difference between the Epic Boon feature and the Ability Score Improvement feature is calling out that you will meet the prerequisites for one or more Epic Boon Feat and to suggest a feat based on the class. Functionally, it is just the level 19 ASI feature.
If you are a level 12/3/3 Character, however, and use your last to levels to reach 12/4/4, you will be eligible to take choose two feats you qualify for from any category and will be level 19 and 20 at the time of those choices. You can then take feats from the Origin, General, Fighting Style, and Epic Boon categories and you will eligible for multiple Epic Boon feats.
the fact that it has to be so specific to literally shows it is exploiting a situation to get an extra boon. What is sad, is this seems to be one of the few forums that so many support this exploit. So many min max cheaters.
the fact that it has to be so specific to literally shows it is exploiting a situation to get an extra boon. What is sad, is this seems to be one of the few forums that so many support this exploit. So many min max cheaters.
you're literally ignoring the downsides to this tactic which have already been stated too you, yes you can benefit from this but in a campaign you'd be delaying feats to get this, you also still do not get the capstone. The amount of overall feats is still the same, just 1 of them is a boon instead of another type of feat. Unless you start the campaign at level 20, you will be weakening the character for a few levels to do this.
the fact that it has to be so specific to literally shows it is exploiting a situation to get an extra boon. What is sad, is this seems to be one of the few forums that so many support this exploit. So many min max cheaters.
Exploit doesn't mean what you think it does. Using the rules in the way they are written, without creative interpretation of language is not an "exploit".
Sudden Learning. You replace one of your feats with another feat for which you are eligible. You lose all the benefits of the old feat and gain the benefits of the new one. You can’t replace a feat that is a prerequisite for any of your other feats or features.
Theoretically, at level 20, all of my feats could then be Epic Boons, by RAW. However, you would have a 33% chance of never being able to cast Wish again.
Additionally, you can gain theoretically gain/give Resistance to all damage by repeatedly casting Wish until you have all known damage types covered. However, the 33% chance to never be able to cast Wish again would more often than not prevent you from getting more than a couple Resistances.
Resistance. You grant up to ten creatures that you can see Resistance to one damage type that you choose. This Resistance is permanent.
These are explicit and standard uses of the rules. If you think following the rules as written is an exploit, maybe a rules light or rulesless system would be more suited to your interests. (I have none to recommend, but I hear they can be quite fun.)
the fact that it has to be so specific to literally shows it is exploiting a situation to get an extra boon. What is sad, is this seems to be one of the few forums that so many support this exploit. So many min max cheaters.
Exploit doesn't mean what you think it does. Using the rules in the way they are written, without creative interpretation of language is not an "exploit".
Sudden Learning. You replace one of your feats with another feat for which you are eligible. You lose all the benefits of the old feat and gain the benefits of the new one. You can’t replace a feat that is a prerequisite for any of your other feats or features.
Theoretically, at level 20, all of my feats could then be Epic Boons, by RAW. However, you would have a 33% chance of never being able to cast Wish again.
Additionally, you can gain theoretically gain/give Resistance to all damage by repeatedly casting Wish until you have all known damage types covered. However, the 33% chance to never be able to cast Wish again would more often than not prevent you from getting more than a couple Resistances.
Resistance. You grant up to ten creatures that you can see Resistance to one damage type that you choose. This Resistance is permanent.
These are explicit and standard uses of the rules. If you think following the rules as written is an exploit, maybe a rules light or rulesless system would be more suited to your interests. (I have none to recommend, but I hear they can be quite fun.)
Agreed. Loopholes aren't cheating, they're using the rules to your advantage. If I find a loophole that lets me get out of paying a speeding ticket, it doesn't instantly mean I'm a criminal, it means I'm using the rules smartly and in my favor.
Pokemon Master, Hero of Hyrule, Jedi Knight, Minecrafter, Celestial Being Beyond Comprehension, Bounty Hunter, Salmon Runner, Nailmaster, Yarn Yoshi Enjoyer, Animal Lover, Math Rock Roller, Nerd King in all Aspects.
(And, of course, Dragon Tamer. It is in the name, after all)
The trade off, you've lost access to an epic boon and single class cap stone. Could be worth the RP fun if you know it is a campaign that is never going that far.
As far as I am aware, there is no requirement to get the epic boon class feature to pick up epic boons (despite the naming implying that), the only perquisite too Epic Boons is level 19+, which means a 16/4 or 12/8 multiclass character can technically pick up two epic boons. As far as I am aware at least. You would lose access to capstone obviously but most capstones aren't that game changing enough to worry about more so if you get two epic boons in that place instead.
Epic Boons have the same issue that Ability score requirement increases have, they are the same type of boost.
SAGE ADVICE:
Are ability score improvements class-level dependent, rather than total level?
Ability score improvements are based on your level in a particular class, not your total character level if you multiclass. For instance, if you’re a 4th-level multiclass character, you haven’t yet received the Ability Score Improvement feature because you haven’t attained 4th level in one of your classes.
So level 1 in one class, and level 3 in another class. You don't get an ability score boost... until you reach 4 levels in one or the other. Same with 8, etc, and Boons. That is one of the drawbacks of multi-classing. And multiple boons is just exploiting.
That's literally just telling you ASIs are class features and not like your PB.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Nothing goes over my head. My reflexes are to fast: I would catch it."
"I cannot comment on an ongoing investigation."
"Well of course I know that. What else is there? A kitten?"
"You'd like to think that, Wouldn't you?"
"A duck."
"What do you mean? An African or European swallow?"
Sudden Learning. You replace one of your feats with another feat for which you are eligible. You lose all the benefits of the old feat and gain the benefits of the new one. You can’t replace a feat that is a prerequisite for any of your other feats or features.
Theoretically, at level 20, all of my feats could then be Epic Boons, by RAW. However, you would have a 33% chance of never being able to cast Wish again.
You can reduce the 33% chance by having 2 casters with wish, the 2nd caster does a roll redo of the first casters wish and the original caster even gets advantage on the roll, so good chance you get both back up. In worst case, carry a luck blade (maybe wish to get one as the first wish spell...) with the wish property and then should both casters get borked, you got another chance to get out of it.
Personally, wish they changed these caveats on wish, nothing stop re-rolling the 33% chance and losing the spell permanently has always been an odd choice, instead giving an option to end all on-going effects to recover it after a month, meaning any items created from it, any on going effects cast from it by the caster and all resistances disappear but 30 days after that, you recover the ability to recast it. There is no way to undo the effects of the failed roll, not even another wish spell.
Sudden Learning. You replace one of your feats with another feat for which you are eligible. You lose all the benefits of the old feat and gain the benefits of the new one. You can’t replace a feat that is a prerequisite for any of your other feats or features.
Theoretically, at level 20, all of my feats could then be Epic Boons, by RAW. However, you would have a 33% chance of never being able to cast Wish again.
You can reduce the 33% chance by having 2 casters with wish, the 2nd caster does a roll redo of the first casters wish and the original caster even gets advantage on the roll, so good chance you get both back up. In worst case, carry a luck blade (maybe wish to get one as the first wish spell...) with the wish property and then should both casters get borked, you got another chance to get out of it.
Personally, wish they changed these caveats on wish, nothing stop re-rolling the 33% chance and losing the spell permanently has always been an odd choice, instead giving an option to end all on-going effects to recover it after a month, meaning any items created from it, any on going effects cast from it by the caster and all resistances disappear but 30 days after that, you recover the ability to recast it. There is no way to undo the effects of the failed roll, not even another wish spell.
In 3.5 casting Wish cost 5,000+ XP which was relatively small compared to what you need to level up and what an even encounter would grant at the time that you could cast 9th level spells.
In 5e, experience point costs and level drains have been removed. I wonder if you added it back (maybe increased to 10k XP since levels require more experience now) instead of the chance to never cast it again, would it be balanced? Another option would be creating an Epic Boon for removing the chance to lose access to Wish. However, those are more of a homebrew/house rule path. (Edit: Created Homebrew Epic Boon thread for this. It's probably not crazy busted. It's probably not super balanced either.)
the fact that it has to be so specific to literally shows it is exploiting a situation to get an extra boon. What is sad, is this seems to be one of the few forums that so many support this exploit. So many min max cheaters.
Calling people cheaters just because you don't agree with a rule isn't cool mate, be better than that. And if you don't like the rule then petition Crawford and the gang for an errata (you might at least get an answer to how they intended for it to work). I'm even guessing that many of those on here wouldn't mind it if the rule got an errata.
Personally speaking, I would rule that A level 4 PC who has 3/1 or 2/2 can't take a Feat until hitting level 4 in one of their classes. I would also rule that a multi-class character gets an Epic Boon at total level 19, even though they are not level 19 in one class. But I would absolutely forbid anyone from taking an Epic Boon at 19 and a second one at 20, which is absolutely an unintended exploitation of a very specific reading, and I believe that any GM who allows a player to take an Epic Boon at 19 and a second one at 20 is doing it very incorrectly.
Just a fun build and with more sources available to us, I figured I make a character who can do it all!
Very simple and not too much multiclassing:
Variant human (any 1 skill) with the Skilled feat (any 3 skills) and Sage background for the arcana and history skills. Start off 3 levels as a Rogue, getting 4 skills from the set list. Go Scout as the subclass, giving us the nature and survival skills.
Next take 3 levels in Bard, going into the College of Lore subclass. Multiclassing into Bard gives us proficiency in any 1 skill and 3 more from the subclass.
Lastly, you can go level 4 in either class since we already got the spellcasting from Bard. This will allow us to get the Eldritch Adept feat, giving us an evocation and we will choose the beguiling influence, giving us the deception and persuasion skills.
All this will give us proficiency in all 18 skills by level 7. Ive seen older forums where 3 classes were involved but because of tasha's, we dont need to now.
Yep. And 5 expertises. If you are willing to wait till level 8, you can get skill expert and prodigy instead of eldritch adept for 2 more expertises.
Just keep going for expertises and make sure to hit Rogue Level 7 to grab Reliable Talent. ULTIMATE SKILL MONKEY GO BRRRRRRR!!!!!!
The trade off, you've lost access to an epic boon and single class cap stone. Could be worth the RP fun if you know it is a campaign that is never going that far.
As far as I am aware, there is no requirement to get the epic boon class feature to pick up epic boons (despite the naming implying that), the only perquisite too Epic Boons is level 19+, which means a 16/4 or 12/8 multiclass character can technically pick up two epic boons. As far as I am aware at least. You would lose access to capstone obviously but most capstones aren't that game changing enough to worry about more so if you get two epic boons in that place instead.
100% right. I've seen tons of builds that grab multiple Epic Boons since the only prerequisite is Level 19+.
Epic Boons have the same issue that Ability score requirement increases have, they are the same type of boost.
SAGE ADVICE:
Are ability score improvements class-level dependent, rather than total level?
Ability score improvements are based on your level in a particular class, not your total character level if you multiclass. For instance, if you’re a 4th-level multiclass character, you haven’t yet received the Ability Score Improvement feature because you haven’t attained 4th level in one of your classes.
So level 1 in one class, and level 3 in another class. You don't get an ability score boost... until you reach 4 levels in one or the other. Same with 8, etc, and Boons. That is one of the drawbacks of multi-classing. And multiple boons is just exploiting.
It's not exploiting, you weaken yourself quiet a bit in the mid tiers taking such an approach and at level 20, epic boons are basically progression for stronger creatures.
No it is exploiting. You want to get them by grabbing again through ability gains that are limited by class, but don't want to follow the limited by class portion. Its a blatant exploit. No you don't get the have your cake, and eat it too, and eat another cake when you multi-class.
The tradeoff to gaining the low level abilities of other classes that make great combos with another class is that you don't get high level features of your main class... including Epic Boons.
Not only this but once you hit level 20, any can gain Epic Boon feats every 30,000 exp.
Please refer to Parts of a Feat in Chapter 5.
Now let's look at the ASI and Epic Boon Class Features.
In both cases, you are directed to take a feat that you qualify for and no category is specified so all feat categories are available. Technically, as a level 4 single class character, you are eligible to choose feats from the Epic Boon Category, but you will not qualify for any of them. The only difference between the Epic Boon feature and the Ability Score Improvement feature is calling out that you will meet the prerequisites for one or more Epic Boon Feat and to suggest a feat based on the class. Functionally, it is just the level 19 ASI feature.
If you are a level 12/3/3 Character, however, and use your last to levels to reach 12/4/4, you will be eligible to take choose two feats you qualify for from any category and will be level 19 and 20 at the time of those choices. You can then take feats from the Origin, General, Fighting Style, and Epic Boon categories and you will eligible for multiple Epic Boon feats.
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I agree with @SmiteMakesRight_3_5, @R3sistance and others who share similar opinions about how Epic Boon Feats are gained.
There's a thread about the same topic here: A question regarding the Epic Boon Feats - Rules & Game Mechanics
the fact that it has to be so specific to literally shows it is exploiting a situation to get an extra boon. What is sad, is this seems to be one of the few forums that so many support this exploit. So many min max cheaters.
you're literally ignoring the downsides to this tactic which have already been stated too you, yes you can benefit from this but in a campaign you'd be delaying feats to get this, you also still do not get the capstone. The amount of overall feats is still the same, just 1 of them is a boon instead of another type of feat. Unless you start the campaign at level 20, you will be weakening the character for a few levels to do this.
Exploit doesn't mean what you think it does. Using the rules in the way they are written, without creative interpretation of language is not an "exploit".
I can also cast Wish and gain multiple Boons.
Theoretically, at level 20, all of my feats could then be Epic Boons, by RAW. However, you would have a 33% chance of never being able to cast Wish again.
Additionally, you can gain theoretically gain/give Resistance to all damage by repeatedly casting Wish until you have all known damage types covered. However, the 33% chance to never be able to cast Wish again would more often than not prevent you from getting more than a couple Resistances.
These are explicit and standard uses of the rules. If you think following the rules as written is an exploit, maybe a rules light or rulesless system would be more suited to your interests. (I have none to recommend, but I hear they can be quite fun.)
How to add Tooltips.
Agreed. Loopholes aren't cheating, they're using the rules to your advantage. If I find a loophole that lets me get out of paying a speeding ticket, it doesn't instantly mean I'm a criminal, it means I'm using the rules smartly and in my favor.
Pokemon Master, Hero of Hyrule, Jedi Knight, Minecrafter, Celestial Being Beyond Comprehension, Bounty Hunter, Salmon Runner, Nailmaster, Yarn Yoshi Enjoyer, Animal Lover, Math Rock Roller, Nerd King in all Aspects.
(And, of course, Dragon Tamer. It is in the name, after all)
01001110 01100101 01110110 01100101 01110010 00100000 01100111 01101111 01101110 01101110 01100001 00100000 01100111 01101001 01110110 01100101 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01110101 01110000
That's literally just telling you ASIs are class features and not like your PB.
Extended signature
You can reduce the 33% chance by having 2 casters with wish, the 2nd caster does a roll redo of the first casters wish and the original caster even gets advantage on the roll, so good chance you get both back up. In worst case, carry a luck blade (maybe wish to get one as the first wish spell...) with the wish property and then should both casters get borked, you got another chance to get out of it.
Personally, wish they changed these caveats on wish, nothing stop re-rolling the 33% chance and losing the spell permanently has always been an odd choice, instead giving an option to end all on-going effects to recover it after a month, meaning any items created from it, any on going effects cast from it by the caster and all resistances disappear but 30 days after that, you recover the ability to recast it. There is no way to undo the effects of the failed roll, not even another wish spell.
In 3.5 casting Wish cost 5,000+ XP which was relatively small compared to what you need to level up and what an even encounter would grant at the time that you could cast 9th level spells.
In 5e, experience point costs and level drains have been removed. I wonder if you added it back (maybe increased to 10k XP since levels require more experience now) instead of the chance to never cast it again, would it be balanced? Another option would be creating an Epic Boon for removing the chance to lose access to Wish. However, those are more of a homebrew/house rule path. (Edit: Created Homebrew Epic Boon thread for this. It's probably not crazy busted. It's probably not super balanced either.)
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Calling people cheaters just because you don't agree with a rule isn't cool mate, be better than that.
And if you don't like the rule then petition Crawford and the gang for an errata (you might at least get an answer to how they intended for it to work). I'm even guessing that many of those on here wouldn't mind it if the rule got an errata.
Personally speaking, I would rule that A level 4 PC who has 3/1 or 2/2 can't take a Feat until hitting level 4 in one of their classes. I would also rule that a multi-class character gets an Epic Boon at total level 19, even though they are not level 19 in one class. But I would absolutely forbid anyone from taking an Epic Boon at 19 and a second one at 20, which is absolutely an unintended exploitation of a very specific reading, and I believe that any GM who allows a player to take an Epic Boon at 19 and a second one at 20 is doing it very incorrectly.
EDITED for pedantry.