So, I kind of derailed a different topic talking about this, and now it's been stewing in my brain ever since. Those familiar with Volo's Guide to Monsters might remember that the Bugbear got statted... the feature that most defined them was their Long Limbed feature, which allows a Bugbear character an extra 5 feet of reach when they attack. However, they had what was kind of a ribbon feature that didn't get used quite as often... a unique sneak attack that allowed them to deal an additional 2d6 once during the first round of combat against a surprised target. Pretty cool, but tricky to pull off. However, with the Multiverse book they changed that feature to make it easier to use... maybe too easy to use. Now every attack you make as a Bugbear against a target that hasn't taken its turn yet deals 2d6 extra damage. Every. Single. One.
Now, if you're not deliberately trying to cheese out the game, that's a cool little bonus that will give you some extra oomph right out of the gate. But this is an incredibly easy feature to exploit... all you need to do is focus on builds that output multiple attacks up front. Now a level 2 Monk is outputting more damage in the first round than a level 3 Assassin Rogue who manages to land an auto-critical assassinate... and the Monk doesn't even need to surprise their target.
So I thought... damn, this is crazy. If you start getting into subclasses that grant additional attacks, like Gloomstalker Ranger, or Echo Knight, you could really do some damage. A berserker Barbarian with a Greatsword is functionally landing critical hits with every attack on the first round of combat... and they still have the potential to actually crit. So I tried to think of what combination would get you the most attacks possible, and I think I'm onto something, but I'm curious if anyone knows how to pull off even more...
Okay, so you take 2 levels of Monk to get Flurry of Blows. 3 levels of Ranger to get Gloomstalker's Dread Ambusher. Then 15 levels of Fighter to first get the Unarmed Fighting Style, Action Surge, then Extra Attack (and Extra Attack2), and finally you take the Samurai Subclass, which gives you Rapid Strike... this relies on you having advantage somehow in your first round of combat to take advantage of rapid strike, but with Action Surge that's 10 regular attacks, and then two unarmed strikes with Flurry of Blows (after dropping your weapon so your Unarmed Strikes deal a d8 of damage). Assuming you're wielding a Greatsword, that's a ton of damage even without the Bugbear Sneak Attack, but now you're doing the equivalent of critting with all those attacks. 44d6+4d8+12xSTR damage in one round (assuming every hit lands). With a STR score of 50 that's an average of 276 damage in a single round... granted, this assumes a 20th level character, but still that's enough to take down a CR20 creature in a single round, and that's not even accounting for magic equipment or any buffs from allies.
So that's cool, right? Even though the class doesn't reach it's ultimate potential until late-game, for most of the game you're still outputting massive damage at level one, since you can get the Ranger/Monk multiclass as early as level 5 to get out 4 attacks every round.
But then I looked at the Bugbear feature and realized something... it doesn't add 2d6 to Weapon Attacks... it adds 2d6 to anything with an attack roll. That includes spells. So picture this...
A Bugbear Sorcerer with... let's say the Spell Sniper feat to cast Eldritch Blast, and two levels of Fighter can cast Scorching Ray, Action Surge, Cast Scorching Ray again, and then quicken spell to cast Eldritch Blast as a bonus action. Let's go at the earliest level you can reach this combo... You're a level 4 Sorcerer (let's go with Draconic) so you can get a feat and a level 2 fighter for action surge. That gives you, at best, a level 2 spell slot and 2 shots of eldritch blast... That's 3 shots of Scorching Ray, doubled to 6 with Action Surge, then 2 Eldritch Blasts... each scorching ray natively does 2d6 damage... that's 28d6+2d10 damage... just about an average 124 damage in a single round. If we take this class all the way up to character level 17, now with 9th level slots that's 20 shots of Scorching Ray and 4 shots of Eldritch Blast. 88d6+4d10 damage... 376 damage in a single round. Holy Crap. You could just about kill most Ancient Dragons with that.
I'm not even trying that hard to get more features tacked onto this. I'm just looking for ways to do things that include attack rolls. I know I'm kind of obsessing over the late-game crazy damage output, but the fact that this feature comes online very easily at early levels is wild to me. Has anyone played a Bugbear since Multiverse came out? Am I overestimating the value of this?
lol that's pretty cool, although I think he's cheating a bit... how do you have Hunter's Mark on someone and still have your Bonus Action clear for Unleash Incarnation? I guess you could cast Hunter's Mark on someone before combat starts, but it's pretty rare. If I were to take my Sorcerer concept and replace my Spell Sniper suggestion with Magic Initiate to get Hex with Eldritch Blast, that bumps it up to 36d6+2d10 two levels earlier at level 6... although I think his average still beats mine, since DEX is added to every attack.
I suspect that this will be retroactively adjusted. It doesn't even cover what to do if the damage is of multiple types (EG if I hit with a flametongue does it deal 2d6 extra slashing damage or fire damage?)
Might make one of these for a oneshot. Focus on finesse weapons so I can max dexterity, to get the best chance of going first.
for a level 20 character, you could take level 17 monk (astral self)/2 fighter/1 barbarian. That way you get to attack 3 times instead of 2 when you use extra attack, plus flurry of blows (which I can't see a limit on so once per attack action), giving you 10 attacks (3+2 per attack action, plus action surge to do it again) netting 11d10 (one extra d10 for Empowered Arms)+20d6+20(rage)+50(+5 wisdom modifier) force damage, with a reach of 15ft, for an average of 196 damage, and without even having to use your hands or get in striking distance of the enemy!
Flurry of Blows. Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action.
Since action surge gives you an additional action, but not an additional bonus action, you can only flurry once...still, 8 attacks is nothing to be ashamed of.
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Okay, I know I'm kind of just beating a dead horse, but I can't resist doing the math on this, so I'm going to figure out the max output of damage for my Ranger/Monk/Fighter build I started this thread with, assuming both Hunter's Mark and a friendly ally casting Haste on them. This is all assuming a Greatsword as the preferred weapon.
So right off the bat there's 3 attacks from Fighter's Extra attack, plus 1 attack for Dread Ambusher, then action surge to double all that to 8 attacks total. Then you get 1 more Greatsword weapon attack thanks to haste... then you drop the Great Sword and use a bonus action for Flurry of Blows, with the Unarmed Fighting Style for two more attacks... that's 11 attacks in one round, and each attack adds a d6 for hunter's mark. That's 51d6+4d8+55 damage... an average of 279 damage. If you can manage to make all your greatsword attacks with Great Weapon Master, that would add 90 more damage to that, bringing it up to 369 average.
I also realized that I screwed up in calculating my Sorcerer concept... I calculated as though Scorching Ray was being cast at 9th level both times, but the most shots of Scorching Ray you can shoot in a single round is 19. But if we allow that to combine with Hex, you're outputting 107d6+4d10 damage... 452 average damage in a single round with no equipment necessary other than a spellcasting focus (or an eye of a newt, which is the only material component any of the spells involved requires).
Well if the horse you were beating wasn't dead before it certainly is now...unless of course it was actually an Ancient Black Dragon that allowed itself to be polymorphed into a horse in which case (checks notes) it has 11 hit points left assuming you got that average damage with your GWM attacks.
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I've got one more thing I want to add... in order to roll all the dice necessary for the sorcerer build, it will cost about $12 just to have the 100+ dice in one go.
Flurry of Blows. Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action.
Since action surge gives you an additional action, but not an additional bonus action, you can only flurry once...still, 8 attacks is nothing to be ashamed of.
8 Attacks at level 20 is nothing special, a straight fighter han have 9 if duel wielding.
If you want a lot of attacks go fighter 2, wizard 18 (preferably War wizard for +5 initiative). Cast Shapechange and turn into a Maralith. You keep your race and class features so action surge gives you 14 attacks and you keep surprise attack. Only condition is you have seen a Marilith before. (If you are leveling to 20 you can use things like scorching ray or stealwind strike)
If you want to go the fighter/monk route I wouldn't go Astral monk 17 to get a 3rd attack when you can get it at fighter 11. Then at fighter11, Monk 2, Barb 2 you not only have 8 attacks far earlier but you can also make them all at advantage even if the enemy wasn't surprised by going reckless.
Now I wonder how it affects the odds if you were to use that Fighter/Monk/Barbarian combo with a Champion Fighter... level 16 in fighter is enough to get Superior Critical... so that's 8 attacks all at advantage and critting on an 18-20.
18-20 is a 15% crit chance...which means 18-20 with advantage is a 27.75% crit chance 1-(.85^2)=.2775 So you can assume 27.75% of your 8 attacks will crit...so ~2.25.
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I just looked at the MTM info and it says "...if it has not taken a turn yet in the current combat." To me that says in the first round and or the first round the target enters initiative and if the bugbear acts before that creature. Am I reading this wrong?
I just looked at the MTM info and it says "...if it has not taken a turn yet in the current combat." To me that says in the first round and or the first round the target enters initiative and if the bugbear acts before that creature. Am I reading this wrong?
Thanks in advance
That's right, only in the first round and only if you have higher initiative than the opponent, so activate first. Even a surprised enemy has a turn, they just can't do anything on it, so there is no way to do this twice in one combat!
Considering if the best case option is a highly situational level 20 samurai.
Level 20 fighter: action surge, 4 attacks when you attack, so 8 attacks with a greatsword.
Samurai: Rapid strike (one extra if you have advantage per turn), fighting spirit (gain advantage), Strength before death (the situational bit).
In the unlikely event that you are faced with two poerful enemies or have very few HP left, it's feasible that you might get dropped to 0 in the first turn, before all the enemies have had a turn. In this instance, you would do:
Your turn: 9 attacks with greatweapon master and S20 for 37d6+90+45 damage. First enemy drops you to 0hp Strength Before Death goes off to give you an immediate turn, for another 37d6+90+45 damage against any enemies who haven't had a turn yet.
total of 74d6+270 damage in one round, so average of 529 damage!
Though it is worth noting that only 130 of that damage comes from the bugbear feature - a non-bugbear would still be able to do 399 damage in one turn!
I just looked at the MTM info and it says "...if it has not taken a turn yet in the current combat." To me that says in the first round and or the first round the target enters initiative and if the bugbear acts before that creature. Am I reading this wrong?
Thanks in advance
That's right, only in the first round and only if you have higher initiative than the opponent, so activate first. Even a surprised enemy has a turn, they just can't do anything on it, so there is no way to do this twice in one combat!
If I used the ability as written I would allow it multiple times in combat if a new combatant entered combat and was attacked by the bugbear and they had not acted in the init count yet.
I spent some time last night read the new race info from MTM that my GM had posted for his game. Looking at the bugbear I think it is very powerful compared to the other rewrites with reach and the surprise attack abilities and if I was running a game I would give players of other races something to balance it out or remove it from the bugbear race.
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So, I kind of derailed a different topic talking about this, and now it's been stewing in my brain ever since. Those familiar with Volo's Guide to Monsters might remember that the Bugbear got statted... the feature that most defined them was their Long Limbed feature, which allows a Bugbear character an extra 5 feet of reach when they attack. However, they had what was kind of a ribbon feature that didn't get used quite as often... a unique sneak attack that allowed them to deal an additional 2d6 once during the first round of combat against a surprised target. Pretty cool, but tricky to pull off. However, with the Multiverse book they changed that feature to make it easier to use... maybe too easy to use. Now every attack you make as a Bugbear against a target that hasn't taken its turn yet deals 2d6 extra damage. Every. Single. One.
Now, if you're not deliberately trying to cheese out the game, that's a cool little bonus that will give you some extra oomph right out of the gate. But this is an incredibly easy feature to exploit... all you need to do is focus on builds that output multiple attacks up front. Now a level 2 Monk is outputting more damage in the first round than a level 3 Assassin Rogue who manages to land an auto-critical assassinate... and the Monk doesn't even need to surprise their target.
So I thought... damn, this is crazy. If you start getting into subclasses that grant additional attacks, like Gloomstalker Ranger, or Echo Knight, you could really do some damage. A berserker Barbarian with a Greatsword is functionally landing critical hits with every attack on the first round of combat... and they still have the potential to actually crit. So I tried to think of what combination would get you the most attacks possible, and I think I'm onto something, but I'm curious if anyone knows how to pull off even more...
Okay, so you take 2 levels of Monk to get Flurry of Blows. 3 levels of Ranger to get Gloomstalker's Dread Ambusher. Then 15 levels of Fighter to first get the Unarmed Fighting Style, Action Surge, then Extra Attack (and Extra Attack2), and finally you take the Samurai Subclass, which gives you Rapid Strike... this relies on you having advantage somehow in your first round of combat to take advantage of rapid strike, but with Action Surge that's 10 regular attacks, and then two unarmed strikes with Flurry of Blows (after dropping your weapon so your Unarmed Strikes deal a d8 of damage). Assuming you're wielding a Greatsword, that's a ton of damage even without the Bugbear Sneak Attack, but now you're doing the equivalent of critting with all those attacks. 44d6+4d8+12xSTR damage in one round (assuming every hit lands). With a STR score of 50 that's an average of 276 damage in a single round... granted, this assumes a 20th level character, but still that's enough to take down a CR20 creature in a single round, and that's not even accounting for magic equipment or any buffs from allies.
So that's cool, right? Even though the class doesn't reach it's ultimate potential until late-game, for most of the game you're still outputting massive damage at level one, since you can get the Ranger/Monk multiclass as early as level 5 to get out 4 attacks every round.
But then I looked at the Bugbear feature and realized something... it doesn't add 2d6 to Weapon Attacks... it adds 2d6 to anything with an attack roll. That includes spells. So picture this...
A Bugbear Sorcerer with... let's say the Spell Sniper feat to cast Eldritch Blast, and two levels of Fighter can cast Scorching Ray, Action Surge, Cast Scorching Ray again, and then quicken spell to cast Eldritch Blast as a bonus action. Let's go at the earliest level you can reach this combo... You're a level 4 Sorcerer (let's go with Draconic) so you can get a feat and a level 2 fighter for action surge. That gives you, at best, a level 2 spell slot and 2 shots of eldritch blast... That's 3 shots of Scorching Ray, doubled to 6 with Action Surge, then 2 Eldritch Blasts... each scorching ray natively does 2d6 damage... that's 28d6+2d10 damage... just about an average 124 damage in a single round. If we take this class all the way up to character level 17, now with 9th level slots that's 20 shots of Scorching Ray and 4 shots of Eldritch Blast. 88d6+4d10 damage... 376 damage in a single round. Holy Crap. You could just about kill most Ancient Dragons with that.
I'm not even trying that hard to get more features tacked onto this. I'm just looking for ways to do things that include attack rolls. I know I'm kind of obsessing over the late-game crazy damage output, but the fact that this feature comes online very easily at early levels is wild to me. Has anyone played a Bugbear since Multiverse came out? Am I overestimating the value of this?
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That’s interesting. Every bugbear from now on will almost be required to take the alert feat.
DnD shorts talked about this and put out a crazy lv8 build...using just echo knight and gloomstalker...
8 attacks on round 1 for 24d6+10d8+40.
https://youtu.be/-9dQkl6A-xM
Founding Member of the High Roller Society. (Currently trying to roll max on 4d6)
lol that's pretty cool, although I think he's cheating a bit... how do you have Hunter's Mark on someone and still have your Bonus Action clear for Unleash Incarnation? I guess you could cast Hunter's Mark on someone before combat starts, but it's pretty rare. If I were to take my Sorcerer concept and replace my Spell Sniper suggestion with Magic Initiate to get Hex with Eldritch Blast, that bumps it up to 36d6+2d10 two levels earlier at level 6... although I think his average still beats mine, since DEX is added to every attack.
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wow, that's a pretty hefty amount of damage...
I suspect that this will be retroactively adjusted. It doesn't even cover what to do if the damage is of multiple types (EG if I hit with a flametongue does it deal 2d6 extra slashing damage or fire damage?)
Might make one of these for a oneshot. Focus on finesse weapons so I can max dexterity, to get the best chance of going first.
for a level 20 character, you could take level 17 monk (astral self)/2 fighter/1 barbarian. That way you get to attack 3 times instead of 2 when you use extra attack, plus flurry of blows (which I can't see a limit on so once per attack action), giving you 10 attacks (3+2 per attack action, plus action surge to do it again) netting 11d10 (one extra d10 for Empowered Arms)+20d6+20(rage)+50(+5 wisdom modifier) force damage, with a reach of 15ft, for an average of 196 damage, and without even having to use your hands or get in striking distance of the enemy!
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
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Flurry of blows requires a bonus action...
Since action surge gives you an additional action, but not an additional bonus action, you can only flurry once...still, 8 attacks is nothing to be ashamed of.
Founding Member of the High Roller Society. (Currently trying to roll max on 4d6)
Okay, I know I'm kind of just beating a dead horse, but I can't resist doing the math on this, so I'm going to figure out the max output of damage for my Ranger/Monk/Fighter build I started this thread with, assuming both Hunter's Mark and a friendly ally casting Haste on them. This is all assuming a Greatsword as the preferred weapon.
So right off the bat there's 3 attacks from Fighter's Extra attack, plus 1 attack for Dread Ambusher, then action surge to double all that to 8 attacks total. Then you get 1 more Greatsword weapon attack thanks to haste... then you drop the Great Sword and use a bonus action for Flurry of Blows, with the Unarmed Fighting Style for two more attacks... that's 11 attacks in one round, and each attack adds a d6 for hunter's mark. That's 51d6+4d8+55 damage... an average of 279 damage. If you can manage to make all your greatsword attacks with Great Weapon Master, that would add 90 more damage to that, bringing it up to 369 average.
I also realized that I screwed up in calculating my Sorcerer concept... I calculated as though Scorching Ray was being cast at 9th level both times, but the most shots of Scorching Ray you can shoot in a single round is 19. But if we allow that to combine with Hex, you're outputting 107d6+4d10 damage... 452 average damage in a single round with no equipment necessary other than a spellcasting focus (or an eye of a newt, which is the only material component any of the spells involved requires).
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
Well if the horse you were beating wasn't dead before it certainly is now...unless of course it was actually an Ancient Black Dragon that allowed itself to be polymorphed into a horse in which case (checks notes) it has 11 hit points left assuming you got that average damage with your GWM attacks.
Founding Member of the High Roller Society. (Currently trying to roll max on 4d6)
I've got one more thing I want to add... in order to roll all the dice necessary for the sorcerer build, it will cost about $12 just to have the 100+ dice in one go.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
8 Attacks at level 20 is nothing special, a straight fighter han have 9 if duel wielding.
If you want a lot of attacks go fighter 2, wizard 18 (preferably War wizard for +5 initiative). Cast Shapechange and turn into a Maralith. You keep your race and class features so action surge gives you 14 attacks and you keep surprise attack. Only condition is you have seen a Marilith before. (If you are leveling to 20 you can use things like scorching ray or stealwind strike)
If you want to go the fighter/monk route I wouldn't go Astral monk 17 to get a 3rd attack when you can get it at fighter 11. Then at fighter11, Monk 2, Barb 2 you not only have 8 attacks far earlier but you can also make them all at advantage even if the enemy wasn't surprised by going reckless.
Now I wonder how it affects the odds if you were to use that Fighter/Monk/Barbarian combo with a Champion Fighter... level 16 in fighter is enough to get Superior Critical... so that's 8 attacks all at advantage and critting on an 18-20.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
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18-20 is a 15% crit chance...which means 18-20 with advantage is a 27.75% crit chance 1-(.85^2)=.2775 So you can assume 27.75% of your 8 attacks will crit...so ~2.25.
Founding Member of the High Roller Society. (Currently trying to roll max on 4d6)
"...with a STR score of 50..." How do you get a STR score of 50? Did you mean a bonus of +5?
I do follow you logic though on the ability and how it can affect the game.
Oh snap... Yes, I meant strength score of 5... But there were ten attacks so it added up to 50 damage, and I think that's how I confused myself.
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No problem, I just wanted to make sure that there was not a new rule for stats to 50 or maybe 100.
But I do agree that the ability may need to be adjusted in the future and or for some games for play balance.
I just looked at the MTM info and it says "...if it has not taken a turn yet in the current combat." To me that says in the first round and or the first round the target enters initiative and if the bugbear acts before that creature. Am I reading this wrong?
Thanks in advance
That's right, only in the first round and only if you have higher initiative than the opponent, so activate first. Even a surprised enemy has a turn, they just can't do anything on it, so there is no way to do this twice in one combat!
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
Considering if the best case option is a highly situational level 20 samurai.
Level 20 fighter: action surge, 4 attacks when you attack, so 8 attacks with a greatsword.
Samurai: Rapid strike (one extra if you have advantage per turn), fighting spirit (gain advantage), Strength before death (the situational bit).
In the unlikely event that you are faced with two poerful enemies or have very few HP left, it's feasible that you might get dropped to 0 in the first turn, before all the enemies have had a turn. In this instance, you would do:
Your turn: 9 attacks with greatweapon master and S20 for 37d6+90+45 damage.
First enemy drops you to 0hp
Strength Before Death goes off to give you an immediate turn, for another 37d6+90+45 damage against any enemies who haven't had a turn yet.
total of 74d6+270 damage in one round, so average of 529 damage!
Though it is worth noting that only 130 of that damage comes from the bugbear feature - a non-bugbear would still be able to do 399 damage in one turn!
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
If I used the ability as written I would allow it multiple times in combat if a new combatant entered combat and was attacked by the bugbear and they had not acted in the init count yet.
I spent some time last night read the new race info from MTM that my GM had posted for his game. Looking at the bugbear I think it is very powerful compared to the other rewrites with reach and the surprise attack abilities and if I was running a game I would give players of other races something to balance it out or remove it from the bugbear race.