For context, the party worked for a Knight order and was sent to assist a besieged city. The inhabitants have been under assault for several months and the invaders are making regular breakthroughs in their defenses, so the players were sent to lend assistance, and possibly find a way to break the siege.
I pretty much plotted this moment to be the "Empire Strikes Back" moment, not necessarily because the players did badly or were wrong, but to give them a taste of the invading army before it comes for them specifically. I want them to "fail" here (although I wouldn't frame it as their failure unless they specifically did something wrong) so the victory against the BBEG feels more satisfying in the end (because they beat something which destroyed something they wanted to save).
However, I'm having second thoughts about this idea, because I feel like I'm not handling this in a good way. Just putting it all on "and then enemy reinforcements arrive" feels cheap. I wonder if there is something else I should do to get the players alive and thirsty for revenge when this is all done.
What do you think?
Note: TPK is not the point (although we're getting two characters' death, because one of the players will leave the table and the other is bored of their characters, but their players are okay with it). I intended for enemy reinforcements to join the fray as the players are making their move, forcing them to delay the enemy until the city can be evacuated (they already did some quest to help with the future evacuation, although they don't know it yet).
The most likely is that the PCs just don't retreat. Assuming that the characters are a good fit for it, you can probably avoid this by killing the doomed characters, especially if the other players don't know they're going to die. (But then you get the possibility that the PCs will try to recover the bodies of their friends. You can't win.)
The other possibility is that they'll win, probably by coming up with something incredibly clever and awesome that really would work, and you either have to let them win, or slap down their amazingly clever plan.
Both of these are really the same problem: set-pieces with a predetermined result generally don't feel good to the players. They need to have agency.
If you want it to feel good, you need to explicitly short-circuit normal play. Tell them up front that they can't save the city.
Then change the stakes. Once it's established that the city will fall, give them the opportunity to score triumphs in the process. Let them do things that will have meaningful future consequences.
Above poster made good points about the railroad-y nature of the plan, and changing the stakes. Give them some small win to make it seem more like there was a choice — they can’t save the city, but on the king’s orders, they can get the young prince and princess to safety. Or, to really amp up the drama, they can save the prince or the princess, but not both. They’re the only ones on the right place at the right time to be able to get them out before enemy troops overwhelm everyone, or they only have time to go right or left (save one kid or the other), and there’s enemies in the way, so they can’t split the party. It will still sting that they didn’t get an unadulterated win, but will give them a still heroic course of action. And being ordered to flee will make it more palatable.
That setup hits all the right story beats. It sounds awesome! It sounds like you're missing the denoument, though... The Rebel Alliance abandoned Hoth because they had managed to move most of their materiel off planet. You need that part of the story--something that marks a strategic loss in a larger conflict, while giving the possibility of a tactical win for the party, so that they have a reason to exit the city and fight elsewhere. What if there's a VIP they have to get out of the ring of besiegers? Or a macguffin that can't fall into the enemy's hands?
A different analogy that I would suggest, that I think is apt that evokes the feeling that it sounds like you're going for would be the plot of Halo: Reach if you're familiar with that series. Everyone who played the game and were fans of the Halo franchise knew Reach had to fall at the end of the game. But the game put out a glimmer of hope, that what the player was doing in the game is what allows humanity to win the war at the end.
In the same way, I feel like you need your players to understand that this battle cannot be won. Whether this is through out of character or in-character conversation, the players need to know the enemies will not be defeated barring insane luck from the dice, that they will be overrun if they try. But that there are certain things that they can accomplish here that will tangibly impact the future and help their side win long-term. Ensuring evacuation of a key person or holding a bridge long enough for the maximum number of people to escape. And then, if they do still try to fight to the death, overwhelm them. Their characters die heroes and they continue the story as new characters who escaped thanks to their previous characters' sacrifice.
Problem 1: Admittedly, that's the problem I'm the most concerned about. I don't think they'll try to stay if given sight of a proper army (there are just 5 of them after all) and failing that, they have superiors and NPC friends that can tell them to retreat or die. Regarding the death, the two players who planned their character's death were not really discreet about it, so it's common knowledge among us.
Problem 2: Whilst I am prepared for a "Big Brain Time", it's not something my players are really good at. They're playing a very straightforward group and often stick to what they are told by friendly NPCs (thus why I implemented the Knight Order). But if they can come up with something really good, I don't plan to ruin it for them. A win is a win.
I have already prepared a short list of things they can accomplish after and before the reveal of the reinforcements, mostly intel about the BBEG and associated factions/NPC that they can use to track down a more "substantial" solution to the invasion than just holding the line. I want them to suffer a defeat, but not one that is so crushing they can't, as players and characters, recover from them.
That setup hits all the right story beats. It sounds awesome! It sounds like you're missing the denoument, though... The Rebel Alliance abandoned Hoth because they had managed to move most of their materiel off planet. You need that part of the story--something that marks a strategic loss in a larger conflict, while giving the possibility of a tactical win for the party, so that they have a reason to exit the city and fight elsewhere. What if there's a VIP they have to get out of the ring of besiegers? Or a macguffin that can't fall into the enemy's hands?
I have thought of two ways to make this a possibility.
-Currently, they are heading toward an outpost the enemy is using for supplies. There, they'll see the coming reinforcements and, if all goes well, destroy the supplies and delay the army for a time. It will give them enough time to do whatever they think is necessary to find or create a proper "countermeasure". -I plan to end the "Siege Arc" with an Evacuation. There, the players will have to save key NPCs (or abandon them if they chose) from the vanguard of this invasion. It will be a challenge, enough that our departing characters can go "I'll hold them off" at any moment and give a proper badass closure to their characters. For added epicness, I have the BBEGs' stat-block ready for a proper "final fight".
A different analogy that I would suggest, that I think is apt that evokes the feeling that it sounds like you're going for would be the plot of Halo: Reach if you're familiar with that series. Everyone who played the game and were fans of the Halo franchise knew Reach had to fall at the end of the game. But the game put out a glimmer of hope, that what the player was doing in the game is what allows humanity to win the war at the end.
In the same way, I feel like you need your players to understand that this battle cannot be won. Whether this is through out of character or in-character conversation, the players need to know the enemies will not be defeated barring insane luck from the dice, that they will be overrun if they try. But that there are certain things that they can accomplish here that will tangibly impact the future and help their side win long-term. Ensuring evacuation of a key person or holding a bridge long enough for the maximum number of people to escape. And then, if they do still try to fight to the death, overwhelm them. Their characters die heroes and they continue the story as new characters who escaped thanks to their previous characters' sacrifice.
I completely forgot about Halo: Reach, despite being the absolute best example of what I'm trying to do. Guess I'm off to another playthrough and note-taking. But yes, I already gave them a few quests in the city defenses where they found some intel that will assist the next "Chapter" of our story, in which they need to find a proper countermeasure to the invasion, prepare it and then fight at another besieged city to apply it.
Okay, I've noted your points and will try to focus on them. Thanks a lot to all those who replied, your posts were very insightful.
The two characters do not have to die in this mission.They can be captured or just separated from the group. They will be or are under your control at that point.
And no the characters can not stop an invasion. The siege is going on and will not stop. At the best the characters can bolster the defenses of one wall until they are spent and then they might not get out.
A small specialist parties best use is to get the important stuff out of the city safely and get it to the next safe area. Its not really important if there are reinforcements coming they are not a guarantee. They might come after the city gets invaded or right on time and saves everything but who is to know? Its the job of the characters to keep their charges safe.
They can meet the new characters as they get out of the city or at the next safe spot. The new character could be in a group of refugees they run across leaving the city. They could be assigned some extra guards or help by the city commander to help them get out.
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For context, the party worked for a Knight order and was sent to assist a besieged city. The inhabitants have been under assault for several months and the invaders are making regular breakthroughs in their defenses, so the players were sent to lend assistance, and possibly find a way to break the siege.
I pretty much plotted this moment to be the "Empire Strikes Back" moment, not necessarily because the players did badly or were wrong, but to give them a taste of the invading army before it comes for them specifically. I want them to "fail" here (although I wouldn't frame it as their failure unless they specifically did something wrong) so the victory against the BBEG feels more satisfying in the end (because they beat something which destroyed something they wanted to save).
However, I'm having second thoughts about this idea, because I feel like I'm not handling this in a good way. Just putting it all on "and then enemy reinforcements arrive" feels cheap. I wonder if there is something else I should do to get the players alive and thirsty for revenge when this is all done.
What do you think?
Note: TPK is not the point (although we're getting two characters' death, because one of the players will leave the table and the other is bored of their characters, but their players are okay with it). I intended for enemy reinforcements to join the fray as the players are making their move, forcing them to delay the enemy until the city can be evacuated (they already did some quest to help with the future evacuation, although they don't know it yet).
There are two big problems.
Both of these are really the same problem: set-pieces with a predetermined result generally don't feel good to the players. They need to have agency.
If you want it to feel good, you need to explicitly short-circuit normal play. Tell them up front that they can't save the city.
Then change the stakes. Once it's established that the city will fall, give them the opportunity to score triumphs in the process. Let them do things that will have meaningful future consequences.
Above poster made good points about the railroad-y nature of the plan, and changing the stakes. Give them some small win to make it seem more like there was a choice — they can’t save the city, but on the king’s orders, they can get the young prince and princess to safety. Or, to really amp up the drama, they can save the prince or the princess, but not both. They’re the only ones on the right place at the right time to be able to get them out before enemy troops overwhelm everyone, or they only have time to go right or left (save one kid or the other), and there’s enemies in the way, so they can’t split the party. It will still sting that they didn’t get an unadulterated win, but will give them a still heroic course of action. And being ordered to flee will make it more palatable.
That setup hits all the right story beats. It sounds awesome! It sounds like you're missing the denoument, though... The Rebel Alliance abandoned Hoth because they had managed to move most of their materiel off planet. You need that part of the story--something that marks a strategic loss in a larger conflict, while giving the possibility of a tactical win for the party, so that they have a reason to exit the city and fight elsewhere. What if there's a VIP they have to get out of the ring of besiegers? Or a macguffin that can't fall into the enemy's hands?
A different analogy that I would suggest, that I think is apt that evokes the feeling that it sounds like you're going for would be the plot of Halo: Reach if you're familiar with that series. Everyone who played the game and were fans of the Halo franchise knew Reach had to fall at the end of the game. But the game put out a glimmer of hope, that what the player was doing in the game is what allows humanity to win the war at the end.
In the same way, I feel like you need your players to understand that this battle cannot be won. Whether this is through out of character or in-character conversation, the players need to know the enemies will not be defeated barring insane luck from the dice, that they will be overrun if they try. But that there are certain things that they can accomplish here that will tangibly impact the future and help their side win long-term. Ensuring evacuation of a key person or holding a bridge long enough for the maximum number of people to escape. And then, if they do still try to fight to the death, overwhelm them. Their characters die heroes and they continue the story as new characters who escaped thanks to their previous characters' sacrifice.
Problem 1: Admittedly, that's the problem I'm the most concerned about. I don't think they'll try to stay if given sight of a proper army (there are just 5 of them after all) and failing that, they have superiors and NPC friends that can tell them to retreat or die. Regarding the death, the two players who planned their character's death were not really discreet about it, so it's common knowledge among us.
Problem 2: Whilst I am prepared for a "Big Brain Time", it's not something my players are really good at. They're playing a very straightforward group and often stick to what they are told by friendly NPCs (thus why I implemented the Knight Order). But if they can come up with something really good, I don't plan to ruin it for them. A win is a win.
I have already prepared a short list of things they can accomplish after and before the reveal of the reinforcements, mostly intel about the BBEG and associated factions/NPC that they can use to track down a more "substantial" solution to the invasion than just holding the line. I want them to suffer a defeat, but not one that is so crushing they can't, as players and characters, recover from them.
I have thought of two ways to make this a possibility.
-Currently, they are heading toward an outpost the enemy is using for supplies. There, they'll see the coming reinforcements and, if all goes well, destroy the supplies and delay the army for a time. It will give them enough time to do whatever they think is necessary to find or create a proper "countermeasure".
-I plan to end the "Siege Arc" with an Evacuation. There, the players will have to save key NPCs (or abandon them if they chose) from the vanguard of this invasion. It will be a challenge, enough that our departing characters can go "I'll hold them off" at any moment and give a proper badass closure to their characters. For added epicness, I have the BBEGs' stat-block ready for a proper "final fight".
I completely forgot about Halo: Reach, despite being the absolute best example of what I'm trying to do. Guess I'm off to another playthrough and note-taking. But yes, I already gave them a few quests in the city defenses where they found some intel that will assist the next "Chapter" of our story, in which they need to find a proper countermeasure to the invasion, prepare it and then fight at another besieged city to apply it.
Okay, I've noted your points and will try to focus on them. Thanks a lot to all those who replied, your posts were very insightful.
The two characters do not have to die in this mission.They can be captured or just separated from the group. They will be or are under your control at that point.
And no the characters can not stop an invasion. The siege is going on and will not stop. At the best the characters can bolster the defenses of one wall until they are spent and then they might not get out.
A small specialist parties best use is to get the important stuff out of the city safely and get it to the next safe area. Its not really important if there are reinforcements coming they are not a guarantee. They might come after the city gets invaded or right on time and saves everything but who is to know? Its the job of the characters to keep their charges safe.
They can meet the new characters as they get out of the city or at the next safe spot. The new character could be in a group of refugees they run across leaving the city. They could be assigned some extra guards or help by the city commander to help them get out.