Thanks! That duration thing could be a bit of a problem. I think the biggest problem there is that I can't really use it to prepare for combat beforehand. I have to cast it when combat starts. So I'm quite vulnerable for a while. Need to boost my initiative! 😄
Enemies passing Sanctuary is what I don't expect to be a problem, but time will tell. The reason is that if they fail the save, they can't move and then hit someone else. So unless they have someone else immediately within reach, they risk losing their entire action. So I HOPE the DM will rather attack someone else. DC16 is still more than 50% fail chance for most enemies at this level. 😅
Assuming you’ll be at the back, probably you’ll be targeted with ranged attacks which are easy enough to re-target. And I don’t know why they couldn’t move and attack someone else if they failed a save against your sanctuary. “Choose a new target” doesn’t rule that out. If it said “choose a new target with range” then yes, but it just says new target. After all you can move between attacks, seems like the attacker could just do that. It’s not like they have to worry about you making an opportunity attack when they move away.
Is the Sanctuary description on DND beyond incorrect? It specifically states that the spell doesn't ward against AOE effects
That is correct. I need Absorb Elements for those. My mental saves are superb as a gnome with high ability scores and save profis, but especially dex saves are dangerous. Luckily many of them are elemental dmg. 🙂
The save takes place when you Target the person with an Attack. So it takes place between Targeting and Rolling. You have already started attacking and therefore cannot stop the attack to move and then continue attacking. You either immediately redirect the hit or you "lose the Attack or spell". This mention of risking losing the attack in my opinion supports the interpretation.
But if you have multiattack, you can then move and target someone else with your second attack.
Assuming you’ll be at the back, probably you’ll be targeted with ranged attacks which are easy enough to re-target. And I don’t know why they couldn’t move and attack someone else if they failed a save against your sanctuary. “Choose a new target” doesn’t rule that out. If it said “choose a new target with range” then yes, but it just says new target. After all you can move between attacks, seems like the attacker could just do that. It’s not like they have to worry about you making an opportunity attack when they move away.
That's true about ranged attacks. Time will tell how that turns out. 😄 I still have d8 hit dice from druid so even with neutral con I have 28hp at lvl 5. If they manage to get through Sanctuary 50% of the time with ranged attacks and the occasional AoE spell, that's still pretty tolerable especially since I have strong heals and there are 3 other players that are probably giving them a hard time. 😄
I'm not saying I'm unkillable with Sanctuary. Just that I'm probably not very easy to kill.
It's probably worth mentioning that I"ve been playing with this DM for a decade. I know their style pretty well. Their encounters are tough, but they take into consideration the capabilities of the party. They are not a fan of optimizing. They always encourage us to make fun and inspiring characters and then adjusts the difficulty so that encounters are fun and challenging for that particular party.
The save takes place when you Target the person with an Attack. So it takes place between Targeting and Rolling. You have already started attacking and therefore cannot stop the attack to move and then continue attacking. You either immediately redirect the hit or you "lose the Attack or spell". This mention of risking losing the attack in my opinion supports the interpretation.
But if you have multiattack, you can then move and target someone else with your second attack.
That is one way to interpret the wording of the spell, but I'd really check with the GM before assuming that that's how they'll rule it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The save takes place when you Target the person with an Attack. So it takes place between Targeting and Rolling. You have already started attacking and therefore cannot stop the attack to move and then continue attacking. You either immediately redirect the hit or you "lose the Attack or spell". This mention of risking losing the attack in my opinion supports the interpretation.
But if you have multiattack, you can then move and target someone else with your second attack.
That is one way to interpret the wording of the spell, but I'd really check with the GM before assuming that that's how they'll rule it.
Whether you’re striking with a melee weapon, firing a weapon at range, or making an Attack roll as part of a spell, an Attack has a simple structure.
Choose a target. Pick a target within your attack’s range: a creature, an object, or a Location.
Determine Modifiers. The GM determines whether the target has cover and whether you have advantage or disadvantage against the target. In addition, Spells, SpecialAbilities, and other Effects can apply penalties or bonuses to your Attack roll.
Resolve the Attack. You make the Attack roll. On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular Attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some Attacks cause SpecialEffects in addition to or instead of damage.
So by Targeting me with an attack, they have already started attacking, followed by step 2, which in this case includes the save from Sanctuary taking place. You fail and you are allowed to choose another target. But you can only move between attacks, not during attacks.
I checked with my DM and he agreed that maintaining concentration on a hostile spell doesn't break sanct, so I could start with a hostile spell and then cast sanct. Also if I for example create a terrain spell between us and the enemy and they then later step into it, it doesn't break sanct. It's a bit tricky to pull off, but I hope I can utilize them in a satisfying way.
Your other issue is that Sanctuary is going away as soon as you use some of your crowd control. All you would be able to do is to cast buffs on your allies. If you use Bane or Hold Person, Sanctuary ends. And any creature with an intelligence of 6+ is going to realize that you are not worth attacking unless they use an AoE.
If you really want to be a support, I would recommend Circle of Dreams as this allows you to basically Misty Step an ally or yourself up to 5 times per day at no spell slot cost.
I checked the Dreams Circle as you suggested.
Unfortunately the teleport feature is lvl 10 and our campaign ends at around lvl 11-13, so the feature comes a bit late. The bonus action heal seems nice. However, as a life cleric my heals are pretty strong already, so the extra survivability from Misty Step and Mirror Image (Coast) seems more important right now. 😄
An interesting concept I've played with as well - the character committed to doing no damage directly. I think wizard is a stronger candidate for this than you give it credit for. Most wizards rely on mage armor and shield anyway, so survivability is decent even without dex. An illusionist, enchanter, or abjurer has lots and lots of ways of helping a party and messing with enemies without shedding doing damage. In many circumstances, sleep is the best first level combat spell there is; if enemies aren't elves or something, it's a no-save takeout and completely pacifist assuming you don't then murder your sleeping opponents. An imaginative illusionist is basically build to do this; your enemies might literally never know what hit them. An enchanter...I've long been of the opinion that enchanters are more dangerous to the body politic than even necromancers. Come to think of it, a necromancer too: "I shed no blood, but cannot vouch for my servitor's self control when presented with such a potential feast..."
An interesting concept I've played with as well - the character committed to doing no damage directly. I think wizard is a stronger candidate for this than you give it credit for. Most wizards rely on mage armor and shield anyway, so survivability is decent even without dex. An illusionist, enchanter, or abjurer has lots and lots of ways of helping a party and messing with enemies without shedding doing damage. In many circumstances, sleep is the best first level combat spell there is; if enemies aren't elves or something, it's a no-save takeout and completely pacifist assuming you don't then murder your sleeping opponents. An imaginative illusionist is basically build to do this; your enemies might literally never know what hit them. An enchanter...I've long been of the opinion that enchanters are more dangerous to the body politic than even necromancers. Come to think of it, a necromancer too: "I shed no blood, but cannot vouch for my servitor's self control when presented with such a potential feast..."
Cheers! I do dream of making it work with wizard too. Maybe a wizard with knowledge cleric dip or something for Sanctuary. Or have you found another way to keep the wizard safe? 🙂
Cause I really like the idea of a low con, str and dex caster and make it so that it doesn't need those physical stats - as long as it has magic. I've played lots of wizards, but usually made sure they have decent hp and ac.
The nice thing is that with the spellpoint system and this support / crowd control role, you don't necessarily need to get those high level spells. Damage scales with higher level spells a lot more than upcasting, so damage builds really need those higher level spells. But some of the best utility and support spells are low or fairly low level. 🙂 So for the cost of a 6th lvl spell you can cast 1x lvl 4 and 1 x lvl 2 spells or 3x lvl 2 spells and 1x lvl 1 spell. So the missing lvl 6 spell converts into for example a lot of Hold Personing and Levitating and etc. 😄 Probably not optimal, but not useless either.
The problems with a wizard based class like this I haven't yet all figured out:
1. Squishy. A neutral d6 hit die gives very little HP. There are lots of spells and effects that cause half dmg even when resisted. Runist wizards get temp HP and abjurers get their ward, though, so it would help.
2. Low AC even with spells, combined with little HP. A neutral dex + MA and Shield would add up to 17. Mirror Image is great for this. Unfortunately Mirror Image doesn't prevent targeted save spells like Sanctuary does. But maybe just a cleric dip would be enough. The healer bit increases my own survivability too.
I had a lvl 5 scribe with 20 con from a lucky stat roll and dwarf. I even had medium armor and Shield spell. I ended up in a gang up situation in Strahd and got downed in 1 turn. That's why I value Sanctuary so much for this kind of a build. Like my DM verified, enemies will likely see little point in attempting to get through my sanctu when there is a gigantic barbarian swinging insane damage at them. 😅
An interesting concept I've played with as well - the character committed to doing no damage directly. I think wizard is a stronger candidate for this than you give it credit for. Most wizards rely on mage armor and shield anyway, so survivability is decent even without dex. An illusionist, enchanter, or abjurer has lots and lots of ways of helping a party and messing with enemies without shedding doing damage. In many circumstances, sleep is the best first level combat spell there is; if enemies aren't elves or something, it's a no-save takeout and completely pacifist assuming you don't then murder your sleeping opponents. An imaginative illusionist is basically build to do this; your enemies might literally never know what hit them. An enchanter...I've long been of the opinion that enchanters are more dangerous to the body politic than even necromancers. Come to think of it, a necromancer too: "I shed no blood, but cannot vouch for my servitor's self control when presented with such a potential feast..."
Oh and that sleep thing. Absolutely right. Sleep scales remarkably well. I once had a high lvl druid with a 1lvl dip in wiz.
I cast Sleep with a lvl 8 slot and avoided a problematic situation altogether. 😄 I was breaking into a place and got caught. I was a lot stronger than they were, but I suspected they weren't entirely weak either. I didn't want to hurt them and possibly others too after an alert. Lvl 8 sleep solved it quickly. 😄
An interesting concept I've played with as well - the character committed to doing no damage directly. I think wizard is a stronger candidate for this than you give it credit for. Most wizards rely on mage armor and shield anyway, so survivability is decent even without dex. An illusionist, enchanter, or abjurer has lots and lots of ways of helping a party and messing with enemies without shedding doing damage. In many circumstances, sleep is the best first level combat spell there is; if enemies aren't elves or something, it's a no-save takeout and completely pacifist assuming you don't then murder your sleeping opponents. An imaginative illusionist is basically build to do this; your enemies might literally never know what hit them. An enchanter...I've long been of the opinion that enchanters are more dangerous to the body politic than even necromancers. Come to think of it, a necromancer too: "I shed no blood, but cannot vouch for my servitor's self control when presented with such a potential feast..."
Oh and that sleep thing. Absolutely right. Sleep scales remarkably well. I once had a high lvl druid with a 1lvl dip in wiz.
I cast Sleep with a lvl 8 slot and avoided a problematic situation altogether. 😄 I was breaking into a place and got caught. I was a lot stronger than they were, but I suspected they weren't entirely weak either. I didn't want to hurt them and possibly others too after an alert. Lvl 8 sleep solved it quickly. 😄
How many were they? They must have been pretty weak and you must have rolled pretty well. A level 8 sleep spell affects 95HP on average. When you have access to level 8 spell slots, that does not amount to much of a challenge in a single opponent, never mind multiple. Sleep is among the poorest scaling spells in the game, given it’s relatively high value at low levels. As levels increase, it is increasingly possible to roll so few HP it has no effect whatsoever, even with the upcast. Glad it worked out for you but that doesn’t really mean Sleep scales “remarkably well”. More like you had remarkably favourable conditions in that one instance.
As far as the main topic goes, based on my recent experience with a twilight cleric who used Sanctuary to provide support precisely the way you propose, I’d say that you are overestimating the level of protection Sanctuary will afford you but your detractors are underestimating how well the strategy does work in practice. It’s quite effective if a little dull on the turns that no one needs a heal since you won’t be doing much other than healing and maintaining whatever concentration spell you’ve got going. I definitely noticed my absence of round to round cantrip pew-pew as combat progressed. Of course twilight sanctuary meant my heals were less in demand so YMMV.
An interesting concept I've played with as well - the character committed to doing no damage directly. I think wizard is a stronger candidate for this than you give it credit for. Most wizards rely on mage armor and shield anyway, so survivability is decent even without dex. An illusionist, enchanter, or abjurer has lots and lots of ways of helping a party and messing with enemies without shedding doing damage. In many circumstances, sleep is the best first level combat spell there is; if enemies aren't elves or something, it's a no-save takeout and completely pacifist assuming you don't then murder your sleeping opponents. An imaginative illusionist is basically build to do this; your enemies might literally never know what hit them. An enchanter...I've long been of the opinion that enchanters are more dangerous to the body politic than even necromancers. Come to think of it, a necromancer too: "I shed no blood, but cannot vouch for my servitor's self control when presented with such a potential feast..."
Oh and that sleep thing. Absolutely right. Sleep scales remarkably well. I once had a high lvl druid with a 1lvl dip in wiz.
I cast Sleep with a lvl 8 slot and avoided a problematic situation altogether. 😄 I was breaking into a place and got caught. I was a lot stronger than they were, but I suspected they weren't entirely weak either. I didn't want to hurt them and possibly others too after an alert. Lvl 8 sleep solved it quickly. 😄
How many were they? They must have been pretty weak and you must have rolled pretty well. A level 8 sleep spell affects 95HP on average. When you have access to level 8 spell slots, that does not amount to much of a challenge in a single opponent, never mind multiple. Sleep is among the poorest scaling spells in the game, given it’s relatively high value at low levels. As levels increase, it is increasingly possible to roll so few HP it has no effect whatsoever, even with the upcast. Glad it worked out for you but that doesn’t really mean Sleep scales “remarkably well”. More like you had remarkably favourable conditions in that one instance.
As far as the main topic goes, based on my recent experience with a twilight cleric who used Sanctuary to provide support precisely the way you propose, I’d say that you are overestimating the level of protection Sanctuary will afford you but your detractors are underestimating how well the strategy does work in practice. It’s quite effective if a little dull on the turns that no one needs a heal since you won’t be doing much other than healing and maintaining whatever concentration spell you’ve got going. I definitely noticed my absence of round to round cantrip pew-pew as combat progressed. Of course twilight sanctuary meant my heals were less in demand so YMMV.
Thanks for the insight! What were the situations where Sanctuary's protection was lacking / were they common? Does combining sanct with mirror image solve those if need be? Luckily I also have wild shape and barkskin for when things go too much south. 😅 Barkskin is con so not good for usual situations, but good if I just need to survive.
What do you think about the wizard dip? Would get me nice instant spells like grease. Also mage armor. Shield I already have.
About Sleep. I think we see sleep a bit differently. I don't think I've ever used it for actual combat in a balanced encounter. It's great for social situations like sneaking in a castle etc. when shit hits the fan. Those people don't necessarily have a lot of HP but they can alert the people who do.
So what I mean by scaling is that a higher level sleep can knock out quite a few normal guards and ordinary people etc.
The situation in my game was more of a social situation than an dungeon or anything. I was a good guy, robbing the temple of other good guys. 😅 I just had to get the item, it was necessary. I didn't want to fight anyone. There were two guys. Pretty skilled but not epic heroes. They had around 50hp each. Of course lvl 8 slot for sleep is very very situational. But a big slot can knock out a room full of ordinary people.
In our games the world doesn't "level up", only dungeons and adventures etc do. So the lvl 20 PC could probably just slaughter everyone in a typical fortress without breaking sweat.
Monk dip to add your wisdom bonus to AC, maybe? Of course the main way of surviving when squishy is just to ensure that you are never no. 1 on the enemy target list. Illusion helps, and just the general approach of not looking like the greatest threat out there may hopefully mean that you just aren't attacked that much. Your druid approach with wild shape is more of the same of course. Staying out of the way is squishy strategy no. 1.
Unfortunately for you, my experience with the twilight cleric is rather situational itself. I got to build and play the character on behalf of the DM as an NPC escort for the party during a gigantic BBEG battle. She was level 14 and the combat stretched over 20 rounds, 22 or 23 IIRC. For plot reasons, the cleric was not able to cast any concentration spells for the first 10 rounds but she was a clear target available to the oodles of baddies on the board, making Sanctuary pretty much ideal. Even though I was fairly confident Sanctuary would keep her mostly safe, I still gave her a playable Con score (16 for her and never less than 14 on any character that likes living IMHO), had her in the most armour I could for an AC of 23 and topped her off with a Cloak of Displacement.
That’s the place where I believe your build is most lacking. You’ll be incredibly vulnerable when anyone does make the save. It was a massive battle so there were a quite a few occasions when the giants we were fighting made their saves. They had three attacks and hit damn hard, even with AC 23 and Mirror Image up. There was a crit or two. As well, the caster types helping out the giants eventually figured out they could freely blast her with AoE’s so she was reduced to 3HP at one point. Absorb Elements should help some there but I feel you shouldn’t be too surprised if the wrong mob(s) save(s) and demolish(es) you in one round; it’s a very real risk.
Can’t say much else. I’m not a fan of most dips (going wizard would be MAD as heck if nothing else) and I only played the one specific battle that stretched over two sessions. It was effective enough under the circumstances but definitely thrilling in a unique way. How hot do your DM’s dice run? LOL
Unfortunately for you, my experience with the twilight cleric is rather situational itself. I got to build and play the character on behalf of the DM as an NPC escort for the party during a gigantic BBEG battle. She was level 14 and the combat stretched over 20 rounds, 22 or 23 IIRC. For plot reasons, the cleric was not able to cast any concentration spells for the first 10 rounds but she was a clear target available to the oodles of baddies on the board, making Sanctuary pretty much ideal. Even though I was fairly confident Sanctuary would keep her mostly safe, I still gave her a playable Con score (16 for her and never less than 14 on any character that likes living IMHO), had her in the most armour I could for an AC of 23 and topped her off with a Cloak of Displacement.
That’s the place where I believe your build is most lacking. You’ll be incredibly vulnerable when anyone does make the save. It was a massive battle so there were a quite a few occasions when the giants we were fighting made their saves. They had three attacks and hit damn hard, even with AC 23 and Mirror Image up. There was a crit or two. As well, the caster types helping out the giants eventually figured out they could freely blast her with AoE’s so she was reduced to 3HP at one point. Absorb Elements should help some there but I feel you shouldn’t be too surprised if the wrong mob(s) save(s) and demolish(es) you in one round; it’s a very real risk.
Can’t say much else. I’m not a fan of most dips (going wizard would be MAD as heck if nothing else) and I only played the one specific battle that stretched over two sessions. It was effective enough under the circumstances but definitely thrilling in a unique way. How hot do your DM’s dice run? LOL
I probably wouldn't use this build for a combat heavy game. We play ~4h at a time and we rarely have more than one major battle per session. Sometimes 0. Sometimes a couple of small brawls instead of one big. A lot of problem solving and social encounters too, which I hope is where I get to shine. 😄
I've always been that 14 or 16 con guy too. And I feel like that's a major flaw in dnd 5e design to get the feeling that any char concept needs con and dex / str too.
I've made countless builds throughout the years and challenged myself in different ways. I like all that mechanical tweaking a lot. I rarely optimize /min-max DMG or even combat prowess, but I do often like to optimize some aspects. 😄
This character is mostly a personal challenge. Can I build an effective character without con+ or non-magical AC for this game and "beat" that necessity of physical attributes. 😄
I probably mentioned it before but I think the effectiveness of a build is quite heavily a social construct too, so understanding your DMs modus operandi can explain why people see this build so differently.
I do expect to get hurt and perhaps be downed too like everyone else in the party. But with my understanding of the mechanics/math and my DMs ways, I don't think my overall risk is more than anyone else's with all factors combined.
Our DM designs major combat encounters like bosses in a way that the most likely outcome is someone rolling death saves at least once. So that's the balance point. When we get lucky, nobody goes down. When things go poorly, someone may die. But a total party wipe is extremely rare, as it should be IMO.
I haven't been much of a multiclasser either. Sometimes 1lvl dips for something important or flavorful. The spellpoint variant has really changed my perspective there. Makes me wanna use those low level spells more. 😄
So to recap all aspects of survivability:
D8 hit dice, sanctuary, shield spell, mirror image, barkskin, wild shape, misty step, strong healing, gnome cunning, absorb elements. Maybe get mage armor too one way or the other.
I really appreciate the insight from all of you guys, helps me understand what kind of risks to expect and take into account. This character goes into play tomorrow, but probably at the end of the session since I'm retiring my current character first.
Maybe in the next session I will see if it works. 😁
I'm usually quite emotionally invested in my characters, but this time I don't mind if they die.
Unfortunately for you, my experience with the twilight cleric is rather situational itself. I got to build and play the character on behalf of the DM as an NPC escort for the party during a gigantic BBEG battle. She was level 14 and the combat stretched over 20 rounds, 22 or 23 IIRC. For plot reasons, the cleric was not able to cast any concentration spells for the first 10 rounds but she was a clear target available to the oodles of baddies on the board, making Sanctuary pretty much ideal. Even though I was fairly confident Sanctuary would keep her mostly safe, I still gave her a playable Con score (16 for her and never less than 14 on any character that likes living IMHO), had her in the most armour I could for an AC of 23 and topped her off with a Cloak of Displacement.
That’s the place where I believe your build is most lacking. You’ll be incredibly vulnerable when anyone does make the save. It was a massive battle so there were a quite a few occasions when the giants we were fighting made their saves. They had three attacks and hit damn hard, even with AC 23 and Mirror Image up. There was a crit or two. As well, the caster types helping out the giants eventually figured out they could freely blast her with AoE’s so she was reduced to 3HP at one point. Absorb Elements should help some there but I feel you shouldn’t be too surprised if the wrong mob(s) save(s) and demolish(es) you in one round; it’s a very real risk.
Can’t say much else. I’m not a fan of most dips (going wizard would be MAD as heck if nothing else) and I only played the one specific battle that stretched over two sessions. It was effective enough under the circumstances but definitely thrilling in a unique way. How hot do your DM’s dice run? LOL
I probably wouldn't use this build for a combat heavy game. We play ~4h at a time and we rarely have more than one major battle per session. Sometimes 0. Sometimes a couple of small brawls instead of one big. A lot of problem solving and social encounters too, which I hope is where I get to shine. 😄
I've always been that 14 or 16 con guy too. And I feel like that's a major flaw in dnd 5e design to get the feeling that any char concept needs con and dex / str too.
Why is it a flaw? Adventuring is a physically challenging occupation, it makes sense that successful adventurers are in good physical shape. Even if you're a wizard, to be an adventurer means that you need to carry your gear around, be able to walk all day, be quick enough to dodge traps and spells, and endure being exposed to all kinds of toxins, diseases, the elements, and things that are trying to eat you. People who can't do that typically either stay in town or get eaten by something.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
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Thanks! That duration thing could be a bit of a problem. I think the biggest problem there is that I can't really use it to prepare for combat beforehand. I have to cast it when combat starts. So I'm quite vulnerable for a while. Need to boost my initiative! 😄
Enemies passing Sanctuary is what I don't expect to be a problem, but time will tell. The reason is that if they fail the save, they can't move and then hit someone else. So unless they have someone else immediately within reach, they risk losing their entire action. So I HOPE the DM will rather attack someone else. DC16 is still more than 50% fail chance for most enemies at this level. 😅
Finland GMT/UTC +2
Assuming you’ll be at the back, probably you’ll be targeted with ranged attacks which are easy enough to re-target.
And I don’t know why they couldn’t move and attack someone else if they failed a save against your sanctuary. “Choose a new target” doesn’t rule that out. If it said “choose a new target with range” then yes, but it just says new target. After all you can move between attacks, seems like the attacker could just do that. It’s not like they have to worry about you making an opportunity attack when they move away.
Is the Sanctuary description on DND beyond incorrect? It specifically states that the spell doesn't ward against AOE effects
That is correct. I need Absorb Elements for those. My mental saves are superb as a gnome with high ability scores and save profis, but especially dex saves are dangerous. Luckily many of them are elemental dmg. 🙂
Finland GMT/UTC +2
The save takes place when you Target the person with an Attack. So it takes place between Targeting and Rolling. You have already started attacking and therefore cannot stop the attack to move and then continue attacking. You either immediately redirect the hit or you "lose the Attack or spell". This mention of risking losing the attack in my opinion supports the interpretation.
But if you have multiattack, you can then move and target someone else with your second attack.
Finland GMT/UTC +2
That's true about ranged attacks. Time will tell how that turns out. 😄 I still have d8 hit dice from druid so even with neutral con I have 28hp at lvl 5. If they manage to get through Sanctuary 50% of the time with ranged attacks and the occasional AoE spell, that's still pretty tolerable especially since I have strong heals and there are 3 other players that are probably giving them a hard time. 😄
I'm not saying I'm unkillable with Sanctuary. Just that I'm probably not very easy to kill.
Finland GMT/UTC +2
It's probably worth mentioning that I"ve been playing with this DM for a decade. I know their style pretty well. Their encounters are tough, but they take into consideration the capabilities of the party. They are not a fan of optimizing. They always encourage us to make fun and inspiring characters and then adjusts the difficulty so that encounters are fun and challenging for that particular party.
Finland GMT/UTC +2
That is one way to interpret the wording of the spell, but I'd really check with the GM before assuming that that's how they'll rule it.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I did check, yeah. 🙂
Phb says this
Making an Attack
Whether you’re striking with a melee weapon, firing a weapon at range, or making an Attack roll as part of a spell, an Attack has a simple structure.
So by Targeting me with an attack, they have already started attacking, followed by step 2, which in this case includes the save from Sanctuary taking place. You fail and you are allowed to choose another target. But you can only move between attacks, not during attacks.
Finland GMT/UTC +2
Thanks! I'll take a look at the circle. 😄
I checked with my DM and he agreed that maintaining concentration on a hostile spell doesn't break sanct, so I could start with a hostile spell and then cast sanct. Also if I for example create a terrain spell between us and the enemy and they then later step into it, it doesn't break sanct. It's a bit tricky to pull off, but I hope I can utilize them in a satisfying way.
Finland GMT/UTC +2
I checked the Dreams Circle as you suggested.
Unfortunately the teleport feature is lvl 10 and our campaign ends at around lvl 11-13, so the feature comes a bit late. The bonus action heal seems nice. However, as a life cleric my heals are pretty strong already, so the extra survivability from Misty Step and Mirror Image (Coast) seems more important right now. 😄
Finland GMT/UTC +2
An interesting concept I've played with as well - the character committed to doing no damage directly. I think wizard is a stronger candidate for this than you give it credit for. Most wizards rely on mage armor and shield anyway, so survivability is decent even without dex. An illusionist, enchanter, or abjurer has lots and lots of ways of helping a party and messing with enemies without shedding doing damage. In many circumstances, sleep is the best first level combat spell there is; if enemies aren't elves or something, it's a no-save takeout and completely pacifist assuming you don't then murder your sleeping opponents. An imaginative illusionist is basically build to do this; your enemies might literally never know what hit them. An enchanter...I've long been of the opinion that enchanters are more dangerous to the body politic than even necromancers. Come to think of it, a necromancer too: "I shed no blood, but cannot vouch for my servitor's self control when presented with such a potential feast..."
Cheers! I do dream of making it work with wizard too. Maybe a wizard with knowledge cleric dip or something for Sanctuary. Or have you found another way to keep the wizard safe? 🙂
Cause I really like the idea of a low con, str and dex caster and make it so that it doesn't need those physical stats - as long as it has magic. I've played lots of wizards, but usually made sure they have decent hp and ac.
The nice thing is that with the spellpoint system and this support / crowd control role, you don't necessarily need to get those high level spells. Damage scales with higher level spells a lot more than upcasting, so damage builds really need those higher level spells. But some of the best utility and support spells are low or fairly low level. 🙂 So for the cost of a 6th lvl spell you can cast 1x lvl 4 and 1 x lvl 2 spells or 3x lvl 2 spells and 1x lvl 1 spell. So the missing lvl 6 spell converts into for example a lot of Hold Personing and Levitating and etc. 😄 Probably not optimal, but not useless either.
The problems with a wizard based class like this I haven't yet all figured out:
1. Squishy. A neutral d6 hit die gives very little HP. There are lots of spells and effects that cause half dmg even when resisted. Runist wizards get temp HP and abjurers get their ward, though, so it would help.
2. Low AC even with spells, combined with little HP. A neutral dex + MA and Shield would add up to 17. Mirror Image is great for this. Unfortunately Mirror Image doesn't prevent targeted save spells like Sanctuary does. But maybe just a cleric dip would be enough. The healer bit increases my own survivability too.
I had a lvl 5 scribe with 20 con from a lucky stat roll and dwarf. I even had medium armor and Shield spell. I ended up in a gang up situation in Strahd and got downed in 1 turn. That's why I value Sanctuary so much for this kind of a build. Like my DM verified, enemies will likely see little point in attempting to get through my sanctu when there is a gigantic barbarian swinging insane damage at them. 😅
Finland GMT/UTC +2
Oh and that sleep thing. Absolutely right. Sleep scales remarkably well. I once had a high lvl druid with a 1lvl dip in wiz.
I cast Sleep with a lvl 8 slot and avoided a problematic situation altogether. 😄 I was breaking into a place and got caught. I was a lot stronger than they were, but I suspected they weren't entirely weak either. I didn't want to hurt them and possibly others too after an alert. Lvl 8 sleep solved it quickly. 😄
Finland GMT/UTC +2
How many were they? They must have been pretty weak and you must have rolled pretty well. A level 8 sleep spell affects 95HP on average. When you have access to level 8 spell slots, that does not amount to much of a challenge in a single opponent, never mind multiple. Sleep is among the poorest scaling spells in the game, given it’s relatively high value at low levels. As levels increase, it is increasingly possible to roll so few HP it has no effect whatsoever, even with the upcast. Glad it worked out for you but that doesn’t really mean Sleep scales “remarkably well”. More like you had remarkably favourable conditions in that one instance.
As far as the main topic goes, based on my recent experience with a twilight cleric who used Sanctuary to provide support precisely the way you propose, I’d say that you are overestimating the level of protection Sanctuary will afford you but your detractors are underestimating how well the strategy does work in practice. It’s quite effective if a little dull on the turns that no one needs a heal since you won’t be doing much other than healing and maintaining whatever concentration spell you’ve got going. I definitely noticed my absence of round to round cantrip pew-pew as combat progressed. Of course twilight sanctuary meant my heals were less in demand so YMMV.
Thanks for the insight! What were the situations where Sanctuary's protection was lacking / were they common? Does combining sanct with mirror image solve those if need be? Luckily I also have wild shape and barkskin for when things go too much south. 😅 Barkskin is con so not good for usual situations, but good if I just need to survive.
What do you think about the wizard dip? Would get me nice instant spells like grease. Also mage armor. Shield I already have.
About Sleep. I think we see sleep a bit differently. I don't think I've ever used it for actual combat in a balanced encounter. It's great for social situations like sneaking in a castle etc. when shit hits the fan. Those people don't necessarily have a lot of HP but they can alert the people who do.
So what I mean by scaling is that a higher level sleep can knock out quite a few normal guards and ordinary people etc.
The situation in my game was more of a social situation than an dungeon or anything. I was a good guy, robbing the temple of other good guys. 😅 I just had to get the item, it was necessary. I didn't want to fight anyone. There were two guys. Pretty skilled but not epic heroes. They had around 50hp each. Of course lvl 8 slot for sleep is very very situational. But a big slot can knock out a room full of ordinary people.
In our games the world doesn't "level up", only dungeons and adventures etc do. So the lvl 20 PC could probably just slaughter everyone in a typical fortress without breaking sweat.
Finland GMT/UTC +2
Monk dip to add your wisdom bonus to AC, maybe? Of course the main way of surviving when squishy is just to ensure that you are never no. 1 on the enemy target list. Illusion helps, and just the general approach of not looking like the greatest threat out there may hopefully mean that you just aren't attacked that much. Your druid approach with wild shape is more of the same of course. Staying out of the way is squishy strategy no. 1.
Unfortunately for you, my experience with the twilight cleric is rather situational itself. I got to build and play the character on behalf of the DM as an NPC escort for the party during a gigantic BBEG battle. She was level 14 and the combat stretched over 20 rounds, 22 or 23 IIRC. For plot reasons, the cleric was not able to cast any concentration spells for the first 10 rounds but she was a clear target available to the oodles of baddies on the board, making Sanctuary pretty much ideal. Even though I was fairly confident Sanctuary would keep her mostly safe, I still gave her a playable Con score (16 for her and never less than 14 on any character that likes living IMHO), had her in the most armour I could for an AC of 23 and topped her off with a Cloak of Displacement.
That’s the place where I believe your build is most lacking. You’ll be incredibly vulnerable when anyone does make the save. It was a massive battle so there were a quite a few occasions when the giants we were fighting made their saves. They had three attacks and hit damn hard, even with AC 23 and Mirror Image up. There was a crit or two. As well, the caster types helping out the giants eventually figured out they could freely blast her with AoE’s so she was reduced to 3HP at one point. Absorb Elements should help some there but I feel you shouldn’t be too surprised if the wrong mob(s) save(s) and demolish(es) you in one round; it’s a very real risk.
Can’t say much else. I’m not a fan of most dips (going wizard would be MAD as heck if nothing else) and I only played the one specific battle that stretched over two sessions. It was effective enough under the circumstances but definitely thrilling in a unique way. How hot do your DM’s dice run? LOL
I probably wouldn't use this build for a combat heavy game. We play ~4h at a time and we rarely have more than one major battle per session. Sometimes 0. Sometimes a couple of small brawls instead of one big. A lot of problem solving and social encounters too, which I hope is where I get to shine. 😄
I've always been that 14 or 16 con guy too. And I feel like that's a major flaw in dnd 5e design to get the feeling that any char concept needs con and dex / str too.
I've made countless builds throughout the years and challenged myself in different ways. I like all that mechanical tweaking a lot. I rarely optimize /min-max DMG or even combat prowess, but I do often like to optimize some aspects. 😄
This character is mostly a personal challenge. Can I build an effective character without con+ or non-magical AC for this game and "beat" that necessity of physical attributes. 😄
I probably mentioned it before but I think the effectiveness of a build is quite heavily a social construct too, so understanding your DMs modus operandi can explain why people see this build so differently.
I do expect to get hurt and perhaps be downed too like everyone else in the party. But with my understanding of the mechanics/math and my DMs ways, I don't think my overall risk is more than anyone else's with all factors combined.
Our DM designs major combat encounters like bosses in a way that the most likely outcome is someone rolling death saves at least once. So that's the balance point. When we get lucky, nobody goes down. When things go poorly, someone may die. But a total party wipe is extremely rare, as it should be IMO.
I haven't been much of a multiclasser either. Sometimes 1lvl dips for something important or flavorful. The spellpoint variant has really changed my perspective there. Makes me wanna use those low level spells more. 😄
So to recap all aspects of survivability:
D8 hit dice, sanctuary, shield spell, mirror image, barkskin, wild shape, misty step, strong healing, gnome cunning, absorb elements. Maybe get mage armor too one way or the other.
I really appreciate the insight from all of you guys, helps me understand what kind of risks to expect and take into account. This character goes into play tomorrow, but probably at the end of the session since I'm retiring my current character first.
Maybe in the next session I will see if it works. 😁
I'm usually quite emotionally invested in my characters, but this time I don't mind if they die.
Thanks again!
Finland GMT/UTC +2
Why is it a flaw? Adventuring is a physically challenging occupation, it makes sense that successful adventurers are in good physical shape. Even if you're a wizard, to be an adventurer means that you need to carry your gear around, be able to walk all day, be quick enough to dodge traps and spells, and endure being exposed to all kinds of toxins, diseases, the elements, and things that are trying to eat you. People who can't do that typically either stay in town or get eaten by something.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.