Unfortunately for you, my experience with the twilight cleric is rather situational itself. I got to build and play the character on behalf of the DM as an NPC escort for the party during a gigantic BBEG battle. She was level 14 and the combat stretched over 20 rounds, 22 or 23 IIRC. For plot reasons, the cleric was not able to cast any concentration spells for the first 10 rounds but she was a clear target available to the oodles of baddies on the board, making Sanctuary pretty much ideal. Even though I was fairly confident Sanctuary would keep her mostly safe, I still gave her a playable Con score (16 for her and never less than 14 on any character that likes living IMHO), had her in the most armour I could for an AC of 23 and topped her off with a Cloak of Displacement.
That’s the place where I believe your build is most lacking. You’ll be incredibly vulnerable when anyone does make the save. It was a massive battle so there were a quite a few occasions when the giants we were fighting made their saves. They had three attacks and hit damn hard, even with AC 23 and Mirror Image up. There was a crit or two. As well, the caster types helping out the giants eventually figured out they could freely blast her with AoE’s so she was reduced to 3HP at one point. Absorb Elements should help some there but I feel you shouldn’t be too surprised if the wrong mob(s) save(s) and demolish(es) you in one round; it’s a very real risk.
Can’t say much else. I’m not a fan of most dips (going wizard would be MAD as heck if nothing else) and I only played the one specific battle that stretched over two sessions. It was effective enough under the circumstances but definitely thrilling in a unique way. How hot do your DM’s dice run? LOL
I probably wouldn't use this build for a combat heavy game. We play ~4h at a time and we rarely have more than one major battle per session. Sometimes 0. Sometimes a couple of small brawls instead of one big. A lot of problem solving and social encounters too, which I hope is where I get to shine. 😄
I've always been that 14 or 16 con guy too. And I feel like that's a major flaw in dnd 5e design to get the feeling that any char concept needs con and dex / str too.
Why is it a flaw? Adventuring is a physically challenging occupation, it makes sense that successful adventurers are in good physical shape. Even if you're a wizard, to be an adventurer means that you need to carry your gear around, be able to walk all day, be quick enough to dodge traps and spells, and endure being exposed to all kinds of toxins, diseases, the elements, and things that are trying to eat you. People who can't do that typically either stay in town or get eaten by something.
It's a flaw because it's limiting without adding any value. Wizards and druids have magical solutions to almost every task, including carrying heavy equipment, climbing, sneaking etc. So the only actual demand for physical stats is that you won't survive combat.
I've played using many different systems. This demand for physical attributes despite of character concept and class is very much built in the system of DnD 5e. A few examples: effects that cause damage even with a successful save, hit rates increasing faster than AC with levels, arcane classes having significantly less HP, armor / HP being tied to certain attributes and classes. Following the logic from your examples, why would they have less HP if they are meant to be sturdy adventurers built for hardship and fighting?
Basically the way DnD is built, you can't really do much to avoid being hit, so you have to min/max certain stats despite of concept. That's not the case with all systems = I consider it a flaw.
10 is supposed to be an average stat. As Bornoffire said and I agree, Dnd has a natural demand for clearly above average (14-16) con for most characters that want to live. Dex too. Why should the scholar be as nimble as a thief and as sturdy as a warrior to be useful?
If you want to play a character with the physical aptitude of Steven Hawking, yeah, D&D has never in any edition been the game for you. That's not a flaw anymore than the fact that my car doesn't function as a helicopter is a flaw. D&D was never intended to be a universal roleplaying system that let you design any sort of character you want, I suggest you try something else like GURPS for that.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
If you want to play a character with the physical aptitude of Steven Hawking, yeah, D&D has never in any edition been the game for you. That's not a flaw anymore than the fact that my car doesn't function as a helicopter is a flaw. D&D was never intended to be a universal roleplaying system that let you design any sort of character you want, I suggest you try something else like GURPS for that.
Oh the irony that they just published a Dragonlance adventure for 5e. One of Dragonlance's original party members was Raistlin Majere. A sickly boy, but very smart. Wizard. Kind of like Hawking minus the chair.
He did great in the adventures. Very useful, even though he had to rely on his brother for the physical stuff.
I like playing all kinds of characters. But I want to try a physically weak one too.
Oh i did once play a guy in a wheelchair. A druid. Lost so much str meddling with cosmic powers. He was able to walk short distances. Str was 4. That guy ended up killing a god and stealing some of his power. Became a demigod and did all sorts of epic things. Ah. Good times.
Despite Raistlin's chronic portrayal in the novels as if he was days away from dying of tuberculosis, his official published stats actually gave him a 10 con and a decent dex.
There is something to the point though: dex may be more essential to a mage than a frontline type. I've also tended to go with a pretty good CON for all characters, but I've felt most comfortable shorting DEX when playing a paladin or fighter - whose AC is all coming from heavy armor. That seems intuitively wrong.
If you want to play a character with the physical aptitude of Steven Hawking, yeah, D&D has never in any edition been the game for you. That's not a flaw anymore than the fact that my car doesn't function as a helicopter is a flaw. D&D was never intended to be a universal roleplaying system that let you design any sort of character you want, I suggest you try something else like GURPS for that.
Wrong. You can play any character with any physical or mental aptitude. Its harder maybe, but its not imposible or wrong/Bad fun. Any edition. You really just need your Mainstat to function (and in 5e not actually a necesity, just makes things harder, thats it). You can play a 5 Int Barbarian or the 5 Cha Fighter, but you can't play a 5 Con Wizard? sure it will be very difficult... but it can be done.
I remember editions supporting 3-18 stats, you probably shouldnt play anything with a 3 in any stat, but have heard plenty of stories about that (normally a 3 int barbarian or something similar... is as disrupting as a low con character).
In theory you might be able to play any build you want to, but in practice I've found that people who intentionally put serious handicaps into their characters for roleplaying purposes have a distinct tendency to swiftly find that playing such a character isn't nearly as fun as they believed it would be when said handicap starts seriously affecting the game and they wind up being unable to contribute to the current task or even outright making things harder on the rest of the party.
And yes, playing a character with a 3 intelligence does tend to be extremely disruptive and is something that I've argued against every time I see someone talk about wanting to do so.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
In theory you might be able to play any build you want to, but in practice I've found that people who intentionally put serious handicaps into their characters for roleplaying purposes have a distinct tendency to swiftly find that playing such a character isn't nearly as fun as they believed it would be when said handicap starts seriously affecting the game and they wind up being unable to contribute to the current task or even outright making things harder on the rest of the party.
And yes, playing a character with a 3 intelligence does tend to be extremely disruptive and is something that I've argued against every time I see someone talk about wanting to do so.
Which is exactly why I called it a flaw. It should hinder the character and create difficulties, but it shouldn't hinder gameplay or reduce fun or make a character practically unplayable to have a -neutral con- and only -1 in dex. Basically this eliminates all old characters unless you put some sort of a magical explanation into their BG for having high physical stats for their age, which is something I've usually done with old chars.
And I think your Raistlin comment only proves my point. Raistlin definitely didn't have an average con based on the novels, so they ALSO knowingly had to make him tougher for the game because of this in-game demand.
Also. Each character almost always has critical flaws with the current attribute system. Unless you roll for stats, you will always have negative attribute. That also enforces my point about the design flaw. You have to put those negatives in whatever is your class' "dump stat".
You can't have con as your dump stat ever and you can't really have dex be a dump stat unless you have heavy armor. This is because AC is tied to dex and HP to con and armor types to class. This is a choice by the designers. You don't -need to- tie any of those to attributes.
In theory you might be able to play any build you want to, but in practice I've found that people who intentionally put serious handicaps into their characters for roleplaying purposes have a distinct tendency to swiftly find that playing such a character isn't nearly as fun as they believed it would be when said handicap starts seriously affecting the game and they wind up being unable to contribute to the current task or even outright making things harder on the rest of the party.
And yes, playing a character with a 3 intelligence does tend to be extremely disruptive and is something that I've argued against every time I see someone talk about wanting to do so.
Which is exactly why I called it a flaw. It should hinder the character and create difficulties, but it shouldn't hinder gameplay or reduce fun or make a character practically unplayable to have a -neutral con- and only -1 in dex. Basically this eliminates all old characters unless you put some sort of a magical explanation into their BG for having high physical stats for their age, which is something I've usually done with old chars.
And I think your Raistlin comment only proves my point. Raistlin definitely didn't have an average con based on the novels, so they ALSO knowingly had to make him tougher for the game because of this in-game demand.
Also. Each character almost always has critical flaws with the current attribute system. Unless you roll for stats, you will always have negative attribute. That also enforces my point about the design flaw. You have to put those negatives in whatever is your class' "dump stat".
You can't have con as your dump stat ever and you can't really have dex be a dump stat unless you have heavy armor. This is because AC is tied to dex and HP to con and armor types to class. This is a choice by the designers. You don't -need to- tie any of those to attributes.
You absolutely CAN play characters any way, with any stats you want. But you CANNOT prevent all damage. And if you have a negative con score on a class (Wizard) that already has the lowest hit die, you are going to be taken out of the fight in short order.
If you play a wheelchair bound, frail, sickly character, you are probably not going to have much fun, nor is the Barbarian who is forced to carry you around any time you come to anything that requires climbing, swimming, jumping, or rough terrain. There is a reason Stephen Hawking never climbed Mount Everest or enlisted in the military: he was not physically capable. He was a genius and made strides in how we understand the universe, but he never would have been part of an adventuring party. Even the technology of today (magic of D&D) would not have been enough to protect him from everything, and I doubt he would think it worth possibly dying to go spelunking.
What other stat would you suggest you base HP off of? You may be smart enough to pass your Nature check to not eat those questionable mushrooms, but if someone slips something into your food/drink, the beefy, healthy CON 18 Barbarian is going to be just fine whereas your sickly self is likely going to suffer.
I'll answer these in order:
"But you CANNOT prevent all damage." - and you don't need to. Our barbarian was the first to roll death saves in our last encounter. You only need to be somewhat on par with the others. Sometimes it's high HP, high AC or protective spells / healing.
:forced to carry you around any time you come to anything that requires climbing, swimming, jumping, or rough terrain." - wild shape, spider climb, levitate, fly, enhance ability, misty step, teleport, transfer via plants, treestride. To mention a few.
"What other stat would you suggest you base HP off of" - doesn't have to be based on any attribute. HP can be based on lots of things like class or features. It can also be a completely separate stat. Or everyone can have the same amount HP like in Savage Worlds. Dnds HP design is just one of many possible designs.
"if someone slips something into your food/drink, the beefy, healthy CON 18 Barbarian is going to be just fine whereas your sickly self is likely going to suffer." - protection from poison, lesser restoration, con save profi.
In theory you might be able to play any build you want to, but in practice I've found that people who intentionally put serious handicaps into their characters for roleplaying purposes have a distinct tendency to swiftly find that playing such a character isn't nearly as fun as they believed it would be when said handicap starts seriously affecting the game and they wind up being unable to contribute to the current task or even outright making things harder on the rest of the party.
And yes, playing a character with a 3 intelligence does tend to be extremely disruptive and is something that I've argued against every time I see someone talk about wanting to do so.
Which is exactly why I called it a flaw. It should hinder the character and create difficulties, but it shouldn't hinder gameplay or reduce fun or make a character practically unplayable to have a -neutral con- and only -1 in dex. Basically this eliminates all old characters unless you put some sort of a magical explanation into their BG for having high physical stats for their age, which is something I've usually done with old chars.
And I think your Raistlin comment only proves my point. Raistlin definitely didn't have an average con based on the novels, so they ALSO knowingly had to make him tougher for the game because of this in-game demand.
Also. Each character almost always has critical flaws with the current attribute system. Unless you roll for stats, you will always have negative attribute. That also enforces my point about the design flaw. You have to put those negatives in whatever is your class' "dump stat".
You can't have con as your dump stat ever and you can't really have dex be a dump stat unless you have heavy armor. This is because AC is tied to dex and HP to con and armor types to class. This is a choice by the designers. You don't -need to- tie any of those to attributes.
You absolutely CAN play characters any way, with any stats you want. But you CANNOT prevent all damage. And if you have a negative con score on a class (Wizard) that already has the lowest hit die, you are going to be taken out of the fight in short order.
If you play a wheelchair bound, frail, sickly character, you are probably not going to have much fun, nor is the Barbarian who is forced to carry you around any time you come to anything that requires climbing, swimming, jumping, or rough terrain. There is a reason Stephen Hawking never climbed Mount Everest or enlisted in the military: he was not physically capable. He was a genius and made strides in how we understand the universe, but he never would have been part of an adventuring party. Even the technology of today (magic of D&D) would not have been enough to protect him from everything, and I doubt he would think it worth possibly dying to go spelunking.
What other stat would you suggest you base HP off of? You may be smart enough to pass your Nature check to not eat those questionable mushrooms, but if someone slips something into your food/drink, the beefy, healthy CON 18 Barbarian is going to be just fine whereas your sickly self is likely going to suffer.
I'll answer these in order:
"But you CANNOT prevent all damage." - and you don't need to. Our barbarian was the first to roll death saves in our last encounter. You only need to be somewhat on par with the others. Sometimes it's high HP, high AC or protective spells / healing.
:forced to carry you around any time you come to anything that requires climbing, swimming, jumping, or rough terrain." - wild shape, spider climb, levitate, fly, enhance ability, misty step, teleport, transfer via plants, treestride. To mention a few.
"What other stat would you suggest you base HP off of" - doesn't have to be based on any attribute. HP can be based on lots of things like class or features. It can also be a completely separate stat. Or everyone can have the same amount HP like in Savage Worlds. Dnds HP design is just one of many possible designs.
"if someone slips something into your food/drink, the beefy, healthy CON 18 Barbarian is going to be just fine whereas your sickly self is likely going to suffer." - protection from poison, lesser restoration, con save profi.
So, you're going to use all of your spell slots to overcome simple obstacles and be able to eat. These are things that you can do for free, all day long, if you have decent Con and working legs. I get you're trying to be cute and do something deliberately difficult, but don't drag the rest of the party down with you. You are going to be a burden, and the Cleric might get tired of constantly having to bring you back.
It seems like you are missing something. I am the cleric... Life cleric 1 / druid 4.
And as I'm a land druid, I'm primarily a caster so I get to use my 2 wild shapes into apes and warhorses every short rest. Later birds too. If anything, I'm the one literally carrying someone else.
Besides my con is 10. So average. Which is the same HP as a sorc/wiz with +1 con.
And I'm using the spellpoint variant with multiclass dipping so at least every other level I have extra spellpoints that I can use for lower level spells. Even with the slot system lvl 1 and 2 spells quickly become expendable, even more so with the spellpoint variant.
So unless you bother to actually read what this is about in order to offer something constructive, then please stop.
And stop trying to insult me with comments like this:
"I get you're trying to be cute"
"You are going to be a burden"
Take that sour attitude somewhere else, I'm here for fun. And my party is very supportive of this experiment.
To all the supportive and constructive people in this thread. Great news!
In yesterday's combat with my previous char still in play, we realized a pretty nice combo.
Our barbarian is ancestral with the sentinel feat. So while he's raging, enemies have disadvantage when attacking someone other than him. And if they do manage to hit, his allies, including my healer have resistance to the damage. Combined with my own protection, that's nice.
But! They of course keep attacking him and even the barb goes down without healing. Well I can provide just that to keep him going much longer.
So him staying alive makes it difficult to attack me and me being alive makes it difficult to kill him. And if I can stay next to him, he gets a reaction attack from sentinel if someone attacks me... And this guy lands hits nearing 20dmg per hit in rage.
The character goes into play tomorrow and I made some last minute changes. I took the Alert feat to increase my initiative and avoid being surprise attacked. Now my -1 dex doesn't really affect my initiative much. I have +4 ini now.
I considered taking the Adept of the White Robes feat for extra protection but since I already have a couple of reactions, I'll save it for lvl 8 if it still feels like a good idea then. If not that, then maybe red robes for Levitate.
Our barbarian is ancestral with the sentinel feat. So while he's raging, enemies have disadvantage when attacking someone other than him. And if they do manage to hit, his allies, including my healer have resistance to the damage. Combined with my own protection, that's nice.
Note that it is enemy, singular. The ancestral warriors only affect the first target the barbarian hits in a round.
Our barbarian is ancestral with the sentinel feat. So while he's raging, enemies have disadvantage when attacking someone other than him. And if they do manage to hit, his allies, including my healer have resistance to the damage. Combined with my own protection, that's nice.
Note that it is enemy, singular. The ancestral warriors only affect the first target the barbarian hits in a round.
Ah cheers for the detail. I didn't look further into the feature since it was another player's character and they told me this. In this battle it was one boss enemy so it was in effect all the time really. 😄 Need to look into it. She's a new player, so she may have misinterpreted it too.
My non-dmg druidcleric was in battle for the first time and it was awesome.
(Also, on a sidenote, the character has been insanely good and useful out of combat. For example I used Mold Earth and Shape Water to create a slope and a small pier in order to make it easier for us to move a person we kidnapped from a cart into a boat. )
What did I do in combat? Did I have something useful to do each round?
Plenty and yes!
The battle started at the doorstep of an old guard tower, but our two enemies then went inside and locked the door. On my first round I tried to use Command to separate the two enemies so that one would be stuck inside and one would be outside with us. Unfortunately he made the save and ended up inside.
We tried to go through the door, which was locked. On my second turn I used Mage Hand to try the door from a safe angle, expecting a reaction of some sort. Didn't want to activate any Duration spells except my own Sanctuary at this point, because I wasn't sure how long it would take to get inside.
Our gnome ranger tried to climb in through a second floor window while we were waiting for our barbarian to wreck the door. When he got up, the enemy caster blast us with a fireball from the tower. The yard was quite small and he caught 3 of us in the radius.
I failed the save and the damage roll was insane (36dmg for a level 3 fireball). I would have dropped immediately, but I used Absorb Elements to halve it and dropped from 28 to 10 instead. So Absorb Elements worked like a charm! Our ranger failed the save too as he was hanging from the window. He fell down and dropped to one failed Death Save. On his next turn he failed another one. Artificer did an insane dmg burst on the enemy caster through the window.
So on my next turn I cast Healing Spirit at level 3, healing 2d6+5 (Life Cleric bonus) anytime someone entered the space or started a turn there. So I immediately brought the Ranger back from being nearly dead to 12hp. Followed by Spare the Dying on his companion. Then I went through the healing spirit myself and healed myself too.
Next turn we got inside and I healed the ranger and myself again. I moved the healing spirit into the companion's space and healed him too. Barbarian broke in and I followed him with Dash. We were both out of actions when we got inside.
Barb fought with the melee guy for a moment. I was planning to use the safety provided by the barbarian (sentinel) and break my Sanctuary with Hold Person or Command in order to stop the caster from finishing a Teleport ritual and take them to safety. But our Artificer pulled an awesome stunt and killed the caster. I used my last Healing Spirit use on the Artificer. Our ranger and his companion also got inside and the melee enemy surrendered.
And there it is. It was super inspiring to be in a fight without dealing any damage. Really had to think out of the box and it was a lot of fun. :)
Good to see you are enjoying and having a blast with a very unique play style. Although not so hardcore on the “pacifist” mindset, there are a whole concept built around Wizards (and Sorcerers to a lesser extent) that is called The God Wizard.
Which effectively says that focusing on controlling / utility spells is way better than spending slots in blast spells, even classics like Fireball. We are talking about spells like Sleep, Tasha’s Hideous Laugher, Grease, Fog Cloud, Command, Charm Person; Hold Person, Levitate, Tasha’s Mind Whip, Blindness/Deafness, Web, Suggestion; Phantasmal Force, Crown of Madness, Hypnotic Pattern, Slow, etc. You got the point. Of course all rituals and defensive staples included.
Long ago Fireball was the most desired spell, now the kids go to level 5 and quickly get Hypnotic Pattern because they know how strong is this spell.
These spells you mentioned are some of the strongest spells in the game when you compare effectiveness and slot economy. Also a lot of my favorites on that list. 😄
With the spellpoint system you can make a whole build based on caster multiclassing for access to lots of these low lvl spells - which is effectively what I'm doing here.
For example if you are 2 levels behind in single class progression and you are missing out on an entire level of spells to pick. Let's say you are level 7 with a 5/1/1 class combo. You only have access to lvl 3 spells, but you get 12 extra spellpoints for the 2 lvl 4 slots you have (that you have no spells for). A level 1 spell costs 2pts and lvl 2 costs 3. So you get a heap of daily spells with those points.
Your action economy suffers a bit, but your between rests economy improves.
Very interesting idea. The strength is putting all your resources into stats and abilities that boost your overall power as a spellcaster.
As you noted, Alert is a must-have. And Wildshaping in a Tiny beast with burrow or flight is quite useful for defense as well. However, there are still three potential problems with this build. The first is traps. Most traps are completely unaffected by Sanctuary and some also bypass Absorb Elements. Traps can be triggered not only by your PC, but also by party members and minions. Without investing in DEX, you are a sitting duck for many a trapped room. The weakest link in the chain and all that...
The second problem is that enemies also have crowd control and environment-affecting spells. Absorb Elements does not do anything about mind-controlled allies, who can then be used to trigger traps and/or separate you from the rest of the party. It also does not mitigate against necrotic damage, psychic damage, radiant damage, or force damage. While there are few AoE force damage and psychic damage spells, there are certainly AoE necro and radiant damage spells and abilities. Also keep in mind that some AoEs last for a minute or longer. In that case, you would be burning a lot of resources on Absorb Elements round after round unless your allies find and Silence/kill the enemy caster very quickly.
The third problem is action economy. Sanctuary requires an Bonus Action to cast. Then you can't Wildshape because you still need to cast your own control spell to contribute to the fight. So second round, you cast your control spell. You still can't Wildshape but it takes an Action to Wildshape since you are not a Moon Druid. So there are at least 2 rounds before you can burrow or fly yourself to safety. Enemy archers and spellcasters can still take shots at you...they just can't easily target you directly. Enemy Rangers can Volley or minions can let loose that ballista/catapult - Sanctuary doesn't protect you if you are a secondary target.
"Very interesting idea. The strength is putting all your resources into stats and abilities that boost your overall power as a spellcaster. "
Thanks! I really like the feeling of the char so far. Feels like a genuine sage. 😄
"As you noted, Alert is a must-have. And Wildshaping in a Tiny beast with burrow or flight is quite useful for defense as well. However, there are still three potential problems with this build. The first is traps. Most traps are completely unaffected by Sanctuary and some also bypass Absorb Elements. Traps can be triggered not only by your PC, but also by party members and minions. Without investing in DEX, you are a sitting duck for many a trapped room. The weakest link in the chain and all that.."
A good thing is a +8 (18 passive) perception at level 5 and a solid passive investigation too. This may let me spot a trap beforehand. If we are expecting traps, I could have Find Traps prepared for some extra protection but that is a very situational thing and not something I usually prepare.
It does take some extra planning and care, though. You are absolutely right. That's also part of the thrill with this char. 😄
Finally. If I do end up taking full damage from a trap, it's ok. Even with a neutral con, my d8 HD makes sure that my HP isn't absolute trash. In fact our ranger with +1 con rolled for HP and has less HP than I do. 😅 If I drop to 0, I have distributed 4pt Mega-Goodberriers for the party. These are great for off-combat healing and reviving. Ranger also has Healer kit.
"The second problem is that enemies also have crowd control and environment-affecting spells. Absorb Elements does not do anything about mind-controlled allies, who can then be used to trigger traps and/or separate you from the rest of the party. It also does not mitigate against necrotic damage, psychic damage, radiant damage, or force damage. While there are few AoE force damage and psychic damage spells, there are certainly AoE necro and radiant damage spells and abilities. Also keep in mind that some AoEs last for a minute or longer. In that case, you would be burning a lot of resources on Absorb Elements round after round unless your allies find and Silence/kill the enemy caster very quickly."
Good points. AoE Necrotic is probably my ultimate weak point and a serious threat. They are often con saves, so I just have to get lucky. 😂 Hopefully someone can revive me. But all builds have some ultimate weaknesses like the megastrong barb tank with terrible wisdom being paralyzed. As a gnome I have advantage on mental saves against magic. A nice passive boost for already strong mental saves.
"The third problem is action economy. Sanctuary requires an Bonus Action to cast. Then you can't Wildshape because you still need to cast your own control spell to contribute to the fight. So second round, you cast your control spell. You still can't Wildshape but it takes an Action to Wildshape since you are not a Moon Druid. So there are at least 2 rounds before you can burrow or fly yourself to safety. Enemy archers and spellcasters can still take shots at you...they just can't easily target you directly. Enemy Rangers can Volley or minions can let loose that ballista/catapult - Sanctuary doesn't protect you if you are a secondary target."
I noticed in our last combat that action economy is tricky as you pointed out. Mainly because after sanc is up, I cannot use any control spells anymore if they directly affect an enemy. So I have to start with them and leave myself open for attacks. I have to calculate the risk. I can usually handle some damage easily. This wasn't a problem in our last game since we had some action econ problems with the tower camping enemy as a party in general.
For escaping I deliberately picked a Circle with Misty Step. Also the ape shape is pretty strong for escaping and has a decent HP.
It was actually quite fun to think about action economy. The problem is not being able to cast two levelled spells on the same turn. So I couldn't cast Command and then Sanctuary as a bonus action. But I have awesome cantrips for some creative playing. Like Mold Earth for creating a barricade or Gust for blowing out enemy torches. 😄
Spellslot economy hasn't been a problems. Feels kind of balanced. We went into battle after a long day, so I was missing lots of spellpoints. Fortunately my best heals are concentration and over time, so I can heal multiple times with one cast. Also the 4pt goodberry is insane.
For the future, some magical way to get con save profi would be nice. Would help against necrotic and concentration. Maybe an eldritch invocation with a feat.
I spent a lot of time healing in the previous battle. Most of the time I used my bonus action for healing and main action for dashing or cantrips.
Thanks mate! I appreciate the reflection. 😄
Thanks! These are good points. I'll try to address them, since I have an existing workaround for some of them. 😄
Glad to be of service. I'd like to try a pacifist build myself sometime. I was thinking of a Redemption Paladin tank build, but a lot of the class features still rely on doing damage. I think I'll try making a Warlock (Pact of Chain) and Bard multi-class to see if I can achieve something similar by other means.
It's a flaw because it's limiting without adding any value. Wizards and druids have magical solutions to almost every task, including carrying heavy equipment, climbing, sneaking etc. So the only actual demand for physical stats is that you won't survive combat.
I've played using many different systems. This demand for physical attributes despite of character concept and class is very much built in the system of DnD 5e. A few examples: effects that cause damage even with a successful save, hit rates increasing faster than AC with levels, arcane classes having significantly less HP, armor / HP being tied to certain attributes and classes. Following the logic from your examples, why would they have less HP if they are meant to be sturdy adventurers built for hardship and fighting?
Basically the way DnD is built, you can't really do much to avoid being hit, so you have to min/max certain stats despite of concept. That's not the case with all systems = I consider it a flaw.
10 is supposed to be an average stat. As Bornoffire said and I agree, Dnd has a natural demand for clearly above average (14-16) con for most characters that want to live. Dex too. Why should the scholar be as nimble as a thief and as sturdy as a warrior to be useful?
Finland GMT/UTC +2
If you want to play a character with the physical aptitude of Steven Hawking, yeah, D&D has never in any edition been the game for you. That's not a flaw anymore than the fact that my car doesn't function as a helicopter is a flaw. D&D was never intended to be a universal roleplaying system that let you design any sort of character you want, I suggest you try something else like GURPS for that.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Oh the irony that they just published a Dragonlance adventure for 5e. One of Dragonlance's original party members was Raistlin Majere. A sickly boy, but very smart. Wizard. Kind of like Hawking minus the chair.
He did great in the adventures. Very useful, even though he had to rely on his brother for the physical stuff.
I like playing all kinds of characters. But I want to try a physically weak one too.
Oh i did once play a guy in a wheelchair. A druid. Lost so much str meddling with cosmic powers. He was able to walk short distances. Str was 4. That guy ended up killing a god and stealing some of his power. Became a demigod and did all sorts of epic things. Ah. Good times.
Finland GMT/UTC +2
Despite Raistlin's chronic portrayal in the novels as if he was days away from dying of tuberculosis, his official published stats actually gave him a 10 con and a decent dex.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
There is something to the point though: dex may be more essential to a mage than a frontline type. I've also tended to go with a pretty good CON for all characters, but I've felt most comfortable shorting DEX when playing a paladin or fighter - whose AC is all coming from heavy armor. That seems intuitively wrong.
Wrong.
You can play any character with any physical or mental aptitude. Its harder maybe, but its not imposible or wrong/Bad fun. Any edition. You really just need your Mainstat to function (and in 5e not actually a necesity, just makes things harder, thats it).
You can play a 5 Int Barbarian or the 5 Cha Fighter, but you can't play a 5 Con Wizard? sure it will be very difficult... but it can be done.
I remember editions supporting 3-18 stats, you probably shouldnt play anything with a 3 in any stat, but have heard plenty of stories about that (normally a 3 int barbarian or something similar... is as disrupting as a low con character).
In theory you might be able to play any build you want to, but in practice I've found that people who intentionally put serious handicaps into their characters for roleplaying purposes have a distinct tendency to swiftly find that playing such a character isn't nearly as fun as they believed it would be when said handicap starts seriously affecting the game and they wind up being unable to contribute to the current task or even outright making things harder on the rest of the party.
And yes, playing a character with a 3 intelligence does tend to be extremely disruptive and is something that I've argued against every time I see someone talk about wanting to do so.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Which is exactly why I called it a flaw. It should hinder the character and create difficulties, but it shouldn't hinder gameplay or reduce fun or make a character practically unplayable to have a -neutral con- and only -1 in dex. Basically this eliminates all old characters unless you put some sort of a magical explanation into their BG for having high physical stats for their age, which is something I've usually done with old chars.
And I think your Raistlin comment only proves my point. Raistlin definitely didn't have an average con based on the novels, so they ALSO knowingly had to make him tougher for the game because of this in-game demand.
Also. Each character almost always has critical flaws with the current attribute system. Unless you roll for stats, you will always have negative attribute. That also enforces my point about the design flaw. You have to put those negatives in whatever is your class' "dump stat".
You can't have con as your dump stat ever and you can't really have dex be a dump stat unless you have heavy armor. This is because AC is tied to dex and HP to con and armor types to class. This is a choice by the designers. You don't -need to- tie any of those to attributes.
Finland GMT/UTC +2
I'll answer these in order:
"But you CANNOT prevent all damage." - and you don't need to. Our barbarian was the first to roll death saves in our last encounter. You only need to be somewhat on par with the others. Sometimes it's high HP, high AC or protective spells / healing.
:forced to carry you around any time you come to anything that requires climbing, swimming, jumping, or rough terrain." - wild shape, spider climb, levitate, fly, enhance ability, misty step, teleport, transfer via plants, treestride. To mention a few.
"What other stat would you suggest you base HP off of" - doesn't have to be based on any attribute. HP can be based on lots of things like class or features. It can also be a completely separate stat. Or everyone can have the same amount HP like in Savage Worlds. Dnds HP design is just one of many possible designs.
"if someone slips something into your food/drink, the beefy, healthy CON 18 Barbarian is going to be just fine whereas your sickly self is likely going to suffer." - protection from poison, lesser restoration, con save profi.
Finland GMT/UTC +2
It seems like you are missing something. I am the cleric... Life cleric 1 / druid 4.
And as I'm a land druid, I'm primarily a caster so I get to use my 2 wild shapes into apes and warhorses every short rest. Later birds too. If anything, I'm the one literally carrying someone else.
Besides my con is 10. So average. Which is the same HP as a sorc/wiz with +1 con.
And I'm using the spellpoint variant with multiclass dipping so at least every other level I have extra spellpoints that I can use for lower level spells. Even with the slot system lvl 1 and 2 spells quickly become expendable, even more so with the spellpoint variant.
So unless you bother to actually read what this is about in order to offer something constructive, then please stop.
And stop trying to insult me with comments like this:
"I get you're trying to be cute"
"You are going to be a burden"
Take that sour attitude somewhere else, I'm here for fun. And my party is very supportive of this experiment.
Finland GMT/UTC +2
To all the supportive and constructive people in this thread. Great news!
In yesterday's combat with my previous char still in play, we realized a pretty nice combo.
Our barbarian is ancestral with the sentinel feat. So while he's raging, enemies have disadvantage when attacking someone other than him. And if they do manage to hit, his allies, including my healer have resistance to the damage. Combined with my own protection, that's nice.
But! They of course keep attacking him and even the barb goes down without healing. Well I can provide just that to keep him going much longer.
So him staying alive makes it difficult to attack me and me being alive makes it difficult to kill him. And if I can stay next to him, he gets a reaction attack from sentinel if someone attacks me... And this guy lands hits nearing 20dmg per hit in rage.
Nice combo. 😄
Finland GMT/UTC +2
The character goes into play tomorrow and I made some last minute changes. I took the Alert feat to increase my initiative and avoid being surprise attacked. Now my -1 dex doesn't really affect my initiative much. I have +4 ini now.
I considered taking the Adept of the White Robes feat for extra protection but since I already have a couple of reactions, I'll save it for lvl 8 if it still feels like a good idea then. If not that, then maybe red robes for Levitate.
Finland GMT/UTC +2
Note that it is enemy, singular. The ancestral warriors only affect the first target the barbarian hits in a round.
Ah cheers for the detail. I didn't look further into the feature since it was another player's character and they told me this. In this battle it was one boss enemy so it was in effect all the time really. 😄 Need to look into it. She's a new player, so she may have misinterpreted it too.
Finland GMT/UTC +2
UPDATE
My non-dmg druidcleric was in battle for the first time and it was awesome.
(Also, on a sidenote, the character has been insanely good and useful out of combat. For example I used Mold Earth and Shape Water to create a slope and a small pier in order to make it easier for us to move a person we kidnapped from a cart into a boat. )
What did I do in combat? Did I have something useful to do each round?
Plenty and yes!
The battle started at the doorstep of an old guard tower, but our two enemies then went inside and locked the door. On my first round I tried to use Command to separate the two enemies so that one would be stuck inside and one would be outside with us. Unfortunately he made the save and ended up inside.
We tried to go through the door, which was locked. On my second turn I used Mage Hand to try the door from a safe angle, expecting a reaction of some sort. Didn't want to activate any Duration spells except my own Sanctuary at this point, because I wasn't sure how long it would take to get inside.
Our gnome ranger tried to climb in through a second floor window while we were waiting for our barbarian to wreck the door. When he got up, the enemy caster blast us with a fireball from the tower. The yard was quite small and he caught 3 of us in the radius.
I failed the save and the damage roll was insane (36dmg for a level 3 fireball). I would have dropped immediately, but I used Absorb Elements to halve it and dropped from 28 to 10 instead. So Absorb Elements worked like a charm! Our ranger failed the save too as he was hanging from the window. He fell down and dropped to one failed Death Save. On his next turn he failed another one. Artificer did an insane dmg burst on the enemy caster through the window.
So on my next turn I cast Healing Spirit at level 3, healing 2d6+5 (Life Cleric bonus) anytime someone entered the space or started a turn there. So I immediately brought the Ranger back from being nearly dead to 12hp. Followed by Spare the Dying on his companion. Then I went through the healing spirit myself and healed myself too.
Next turn we got inside and I healed the ranger and myself again. I moved the healing spirit into the companion's space and healed him too. Barbarian broke in and I followed him with Dash. We were both out of actions when we got inside.
Barb fought with the melee guy for a moment. I was planning to use the safety provided by the barbarian (sentinel) and break my Sanctuary with Hold Person or Command in order to stop the caster from finishing a Teleport ritual and take them to safety. But our Artificer pulled an awesome stunt and killed the caster. I used my last Healing Spirit use on the Artificer. Our ranger and his companion also got inside and the melee enemy surrendered.
And there it is. It was super inspiring to be in a fight without dealing any damage. Really had to think out of the box and it was a lot of fun. :)
Finland GMT/UTC +2
Good to see you are enjoying and having a blast with a very unique play style. Although not so hardcore on the “pacifist” mindset, there are a whole concept built around Wizards (and Sorcerers to a lesser extent) that is called The God Wizard.
Which effectively says that focusing on controlling / utility spells is way better than spending slots in blast spells, even classics like Fireball. We are talking about spells like Sleep, Tasha’s Hideous Laugher, Grease, Fog Cloud, Command, Charm Person; Hold Person, Levitate, Tasha’s Mind Whip, Blindness/Deafness, Web, Suggestion; Phantasmal Force, Crown of Madness, Hypnotic Pattern, Slow, etc. You got the point. Of course all rituals and defensive staples included.
Long ago Fireball was the most desired spell, now the kids go to level 5 and quickly get Hypnotic Pattern because they know how strong is this spell.
Thanks!
These spells you mentioned are some of the strongest spells in the game when you compare effectiveness and slot economy. Also a lot of my favorites on that list. 😄
With the spellpoint system you can make a whole build based on caster multiclassing for access to lots of these low lvl spells - which is effectively what I'm doing here.
For example if you are 2 levels behind in single class progression and you are missing out on an entire level of spells to pick. Let's say you are level 7 with a 5/1/1 class combo. You only have access to lvl 3 spells, but you get 12 extra spellpoints for the 2 lvl 4 slots you have (that you have no spells for). A level 1 spell costs 2pts and lvl 2 costs 3. So you get a heap of daily spells with those points.
Your action economy suffers a bit, but your between rests economy improves.
Finland GMT/UTC +2
Very interesting idea. The strength is putting all your resources into stats and abilities that boost your overall power as a spellcaster.
As you noted, Alert is a must-have. And Wildshaping in a Tiny beast with burrow or flight is quite useful for defense as well. However, there are still three potential problems with this build. The first is traps. Most traps are completely unaffected by Sanctuary and some also bypass Absorb Elements. Traps can be triggered not only by your PC, but also by party members and minions. Without investing in DEX, you are a sitting duck for many a trapped room. The weakest link in the chain and all that...
The second problem is that enemies also have crowd control and environment-affecting spells. Absorb Elements does not do anything about mind-controlled allies, who can then be used to trigger traps and/or separate you from the rest of the party. It also does not mitigate against necrotic damage, psychic damage, radiant damage, or force damage. While there are few AoE force damage and psychic damage spells, there are certainly AoE necro and radiant damage spells and abilities. Also keep in mind that some AoEs last for a minute or longer. In that case, you would be burning a lot of resources on Absorb Elements round after round unless your allies find and Silence/kill the enemy caster very quickly.
The third problem is action economy. Sanctuary requires an Bonus Action to cast. Then you can't Wildshape because you still need to cast your own control spell to contribute to the fight. So second round, you cast your control spell. You still can't Wildshape but it takes an Action to Wildshape since you are not a Moon Druid. So there are at least 2 rounds before you can burrow or fly yourself to safety. Enemy archers and spellcasters can still take shots at you...they just can't easily target you directly. Enemy Rangers can Volley or minions can let loose that ballista/catapult - Sanctuary doesn't protect you if you are a secondary target.
Thanks! These are good points. I'll try to address them, since I have an existing workaround for some of them. 😄
I'll throw my comments into the quote.
Finland GMT/UTC +2
Glad to be of service. I'd like to try a pacifist build myself sometime. I was thinking of a Redemption Paladin tank build, but a lot of the class features still rely on doing damage. I think I'll try making a Warlock (Pact of Chain) and Bard multi-class to see if I can achieve something similar by other means.