Been playing for years, decades even but it's not very often that I've actually fought a dragon. I can prolly count all the times on if not one hand, then two for sure and as far as actually killing a dragon, I'm not certain I ever have. You see what happens is that we get the dragon mostly dead and then the damn thing flies away.
I hate to say this a DM problem because I adore my DM for starters. It also makes total sense that an intelligent creature would choose self-preservation over most any other consideration however, I'm feeling a little finger-pointy in the case of our most recent dragon encounter given that we completely penetrated the creature's lair. It literally observed us loading its entire hoard into a demi-plane it cannot access yet still opted not to make a stand against us then and there. Instead of fighting us, it is terrorizing the countryside and assaulting the town we have been operating out of.
This is not a case of some dragon flying by on its way to a dinner date deciding we look like good pickings, giving us a go and then moving on when we prove to be more a challenge than they're up to at the time. We have stomped throughout this dragon's lair, disabled its security measures, slaughtered its minions and robbed it blind and yet it still it chooses not to FIGHT. What more does it take?!?! How do you guys get a dragon to fight you and how do keep it from just flying away when you're kicking its ass?
Logically there is no reason for a dragon to fight to the death as you pointed out. So you have to use tactics and strategy to prevent it from being able to fly away. Here are some options:
Grapple the dragon, if the dragon is too big to grapple use Polymorph, Animate Objects, or Conjure Animals(giant constrictor snake) to make an ally big enough to grapple the dragon.
Climb on the dragon: Using the optional Climb-On-Huge-Creature rules (with DM's permission).
Long range weapons: set up an ambush with hidden Ballistae, Cannon, Catapults, Trebuchets.
Magical containment: prevent the dragon from running using magic such as Wall of Force, Forcecage, Earthbind, Telekinesis, Web
Non-magical containment: collapse the entrance to the dragon's lair, throw chains & grappling hooks all over it, sneak in and clamp a special manacle to its leg that's attached to an Immovable Rod.
Chase after it: get some Giant Eagles, Pegasi, Griffon or other fast flying mounts.
I agree with agilemind, the majority of chromatic dragons are far too intelligent to let a bit of intimidation cloud there judgement to the point where they will fight when the odds are against them, if they are dead they lose the hoard anyway (and wont have a chance to make another one).
White dragons are possibly the exception they are less intelligent and likely to become enraged maybe to the point where they endanger their life in order to seek vengence.
One of my frustrations of D&D is the number of DMs who treat every fight as a fight to the death and the PCs do not fight anything that has the intelligence to attempt to flee if things go badly.
Sleet storm. A nice long range spell that can knock a target prone. Flying+prone = fall to the ground. Probably there’s other things that can knock something prone, but for a level 2 3 spell, with a 150’ range (plus another 40’ from its radius) it’s a good choice, and one I’ve used against a dragon.
Sleet storm is actually 3rd level but you are right, it was how we killed our last dragon (a jabberwock). While the Jabberwock could not flee (it had been compelled by an Archfey to fight to the death, we were struggling to get the final blow (see spoiler). As a druid I flew up to it as a giant owl and tried to attack it but missed, It made a wing attack on my owl knocking me prone causing me to plumet to the ground on my next turn I returned the favor by casting sleet storm and to my delight it not only failed the save but was out of legendary resistances causing it to tumble to the ground where the barbarian could finish it off.
Jabberwock can only be killed if it starts it turn with 0 HP and took slashing damage during the round which we were struggling to do since it stayed airborn.
The problem with dragons in D&D is that while they're highly intelligent, playing them too intelligently just isn't fun for the party.
When it comes to retreating, there should be some factors to consider: out in the open, a dragon should have no issue sticking around for a losing battle. But dragons are very territorial. In their lair, they're far less likely to retreat, especially if it means abandoning their eggs, hatchlings, or hoard. Dragons are also extremely arrogant, which means it's difficult for them to conceive that they might actually be killed by lowly adventurers. Oh sure, that sometimes happens to dragons, but those dragons were foolish dullards who couldn't hope to match the power and magnificence that this dragon has!
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The problem with dragons in D&D is that while they're highly intelligent, playing them too intelligently just isn't fun for the party.
This is so true. Most of them have 10-15 feet of reach and a fly speed. They should never be on the ground, just flying past, strafing the spellcasters and maybe the ranged warriors, while the melee types are left throwing javelins. Or fly up, circle around and wait for breath to recharge. Or using their other movement speeds to get away. Standing on the ground and slugging it out is just silly for the dragon, but for the players it would get really frustrating.
Its hard to pin down a huge or larger flying creature since you usually can't easily grapple it and must find other ways to reduce its speed to 0, prevent it to move otherwise stop it dead in its track when Disengaging like with the Sentinel feat. Otherwise most semi-intelligent creature will flee to live and fight another day when below a certain portion of hit points not to risk dying.
Also, the front page article, which I never read, but I did this time, also mentions the spell earthbind. Not one you’ll typically keep prepared, but if you know you’re fighting a dragon, it would make a lot of sense.
Also, the front page article, which I never read, but I did this time, also mentions the spell earthbind. Not one you’ll typically keep prepared, but if you know you’re fighting a dragon, it would make a lot of sense.
Agreed earthbind is a great way to try to burn through dagon legendary resistances. A second level spell that they will never choose to let go through and a range of 300ft so even if they try to flee having used their last legendary resistance you have a decent chance to stop them..
Honestly, at this point you probably want to have a polite aside with your DM about how you're frustrated you haven't been able to engage with the dragon and would like an opportunity for a true final showdown at some point rather than it just flying off to seek revenge ad infinitum. The DM might have something specific cooking for this arc, or they might just be leaning a little too far into the survival instinct side of monster roleplay, but the best thing you can do at this point is just be honest with the DM about your frustrations. Keeping a campaign going can involve a certain amount of give and take from both sides, and communication is key to that.
Well, since it got bumped, I’ll let you guys know how we ended up resolving the situation: through the course of previous adventuring, we had befriended a bronze dragon whom we subsequently discovered had gotten himself captured by a band of cloud giants. We put the black dragon on the back burner and proceeded to rescue the bronze. As a show of gratitude, the bronze dragon then agreed to help us defeat the black dragon by grappling it to keep it from flying away. It was a decent enough resolution but definitely not something a group of adventurers could count on regularly. It’s pretty rare to have a dragon pal to call upon in such a fashion.
Because my DM is generous with magic items and we have access to magic shops, I think the best, most basic and reliable solution I’ve found are the Iron Bands of Binding. I now own a set. Thanks for all your suggestions and spell recommendations. Subject to party composition, they’re all worth consideration in addition to the Iron Bands that anyone can use.
I was thinking you could have just given back the hoard.
That is certainly…innovative. Use its own hoard to bribe it to go away? LOL
I’ll pass it by the DM but, considering we were essentially hired to get rid of the dragon because it was causing mayhem locally before we acquired its horde, I doubt that would have worked. Even if the dragon agreed to it, I’m not sure the idea would have sat well with some party members since it would have just meant some other location being preyed upon rather than actually solving the problem of a marauding dragon.
My anti dragon build Artillerist Artificer: Enlarge + Strengt based build + Armor of strength+ Athletic proficency= reliable 20+ on grappling and shoving checks. Shield and absorb Element keeps you from dying to quickly. Gives your Fighter and Barbarian time to crack the piñata.
Other ways: Hex, expertise, Flash of geniuses , Hobgoblin, Bardic inspiration, Soul knive rouge…
Also works for Rune Knights or Moon Druids. Anything that can reliably turn you large or huge, together with a +10 athletic (str) modification.
Also as a DM if my bard player would lean into RP of insulting and mocking the Dragon, i would allow him to roll to see if he can enrage the dragon to the point where he doesn’t flee.
Been playing for years, decades even but it's not very often that I've actually fought a dragon. I can prolly count all the times on if not one hand, then two for sure and as far as actually killing a dragon, I'm not certain I ever have. You see what happens is that we get the dragon mostly dead and then the damn thing flies away.
I hate to say this a DM problem because I adore my DM for starters. It also makes total sense that an intelligent creature would choose self-preservation over most any other consideration however, I'm feeling a little finger-pointy in the case of our most recent dragon encounter given that we completely penetrated the creature's lair. It literally observed us loading its entire hoard into a demi-plane it cannot access yet still opted not to make a stand against us then and there. Instead of fighting us, it is terrorizing the countryside and assaulting the town we have been operating out of.
This is not a case of some dragon flying by on its way to a dinner date deciding we look like good pickings, giving us a go and then moving on when we prove to be more a challenge than they're up to at the time. We have stomped throughout this dragon's lair, disabled its security measures, slaughtered its minions and robbed it blind and yet it still it chooses not to FIGHT. What more does it take?!?! How do you guys get a dragon to fight you and how do keep it from just flying away when you're kicking its ass?
Logically there is no reason for a dragon to fight to the death as you pointed out. So you have to use tactics and strategy to prevent it from being able to fly away. Here are some options:
I agree with agilemind, the majority of chromatic dragons are far too intelligent to let a bit of intimidation cloud there judgement to the point where they will fight when the odds are against them, if they are dead they lose the hoard anyway (and wont have a chance to make another one).
White dragons are possibly the exception they are less intelligent and likely to become enraged maybe to the point where they endanger their life in order to seek vengence.
One of my frustrations of D&D is the number of DMs who treat every fight as a fight to the death and the PCs do not fight anything that has the intelligence to attempt to flee if things go badly.
Sleet storm. A nice long range spell that can knock a target prone. Flying+prone = fall to the ground.
Probably there’s other things that can knock something prone, but for a level
23 spell, with a 150’ range (plus another 40’ from its radius) it’s a good choice, and one I’ve used against a dragon.Sleet storm is actually 3rd level but you are right, it was how we killed our last dragon (a jabberwock). While the Jabberwock could not flee (it had been compelled by an Archfey to fight to the death, we were struggling to get the final blow (see spoiler). As a druid I flew up to it as a giant owl and tried to attack it but missed, It made a wing attack on my owl knocking me prone causing me to plumet to the ground on my next turn I returned the favor by casting sleet storm and to my delight it not only failed the save but was out of legendary resistances causing it to tumble to the ground where the barbarian could finish it off.
Jabberwock can only be killed if it starts it turn with 0 HP and took slashing damage during the round which we were struggling to do since it stayed airborn.
The problem with dragons in D&D is that while they're highly intelligent, playing them too intelligently just isn't fun for the party.
When it comes to retreating, there should be some factors to consider: out in the open, a dragon should have no issue sticking around for a losing battle. But dragons are very territorial. In their lair, they're far less likely to retreat, especially if it means abandoning their eggs, hatchlings, or hoard. Dragons are also extremely arrogant, which means it's difficult for them to conceive that they might actually be killed by lowly adventurers. Oh sure, that sometimes happens to dragons, but those dragons were foolish dullards who couldn't hope to match the power and magnificence that this dragon has!
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
This is so true. Most of them have 10-15 feet of reach and a fly speed. They should never be on the ground, just flying past, strafing the spellcasters and maybe the ranged warriors, while the melee types are left throwing javelins. Or fly up, circle around and wait for breath to recharge. Or using their other movement speeds to get away. Standing on the ground and slugging it out is just silly for the dragon, but for the players it would get really frustrating.
Its hard to pin down a huge or larger flying creature since you usually can't easily grapple it and must find other ways to reduce its speed to 0, prevent it to move otherwise stop it dead in its track when Disengaging like with the Sentinel feat. Otherwise most semi-intelligent creature will flee to live and fight another day when below a certain portion of hit points not to risk dying.
Also, the front page article, which I never read, but I did this time, also mentions the spell earthbind. Not one you’ll typically keep prepared, but if you know you’re fighting a dragon, it would make a lot of sense.
Agreed earthbind is a great way to try to burn through dagon legendary resistances. A second level spell that they will never choose to let go through and a range of 300ft so even if they try to flee having used their last legendary resistance you have a decent chance to stop them..
Honestly, at this point you probably want to have a polite aside with your DM about how you're frustrated you haven't been able to engage with the dragon and would like an opportunity for a true final showdown at some point rather than it just flying off to seek revenge ad infinitum. The DM might have something specific cooking for this arc, or they might just be leaning a little too far into the survival instinct side of monster roleplay, but the best thing you can do at this point is just be honest with the DM about your frustrations. Keeping a campaign going can involve a certain amount of give and take from both sides, and communication is key to that.
Interesting necro…
Well, since it got bumped, I’ll let you guys know how we ended up resolving the situation: through the course of previous adventuring, we had befriended a bronze dragon whom we subsequently discovered had gotten himself captured by a band of cloud giants. We put the black dragon on the back burner and proceeded to rescue the bronze. As a show of gratitude, the bronze dragon then agreed to help us defeat the black dragon by grappling it to keep it from flying away. It was a decent enough resolution but definitely not something a group of adventurers could count on regularly. It’s pretty rare to have a dragon pal to call upon in such a fashion.
Because my DM is generous with magic items and we have access to magic shops, I think the best, most basic and reliable solution I’ve found are the Iron Bands of Binding. I now own a set. Thanks for all your suggestions and spell recommendations. Subject to party composition, they’re all worth consideration in addition to the Iron Bands that anyone can use.
I was thinking you could have just given back the hoard.
That is certainly…innovative. Use its own hoard to bribe it to go away? LOL
I’ll pass it by the DM but, considering we were essentially hired to get rid of the dragon because it was causing mayhem locally before we acquired its horde, I doubt that would have worked. Even if the dragon agreed to it, I’m not sure the idea would have sat well with some party members since it would have just meant some other location being preyed upon rather than actually solving the problem of a marauding dragon.
You did not say it was out causing trouble before you took the hoard.
You made it sound like you started the trouble by stealing its stuff.
And then you got frustrated because the dragon was fighting smart.
Sorry about the confusion.
Yes unfortunately the fight was a forgone conclusion here. We were always going to beat it up, one way or another.
I quite like your out of the box approach though. I bet you’re fun to brainstorm with. Combat can be pretty dull compared to diplomacy and hijinks.
I love chaos.
It keeps the rest of the party on their toes.
Your strategy to get rid of the dragon is interesting
My anti dragon build Artillerist Artificer: Enlarge + Strengt based build + Armor of strength+ Athletic proficency= reliable 20+ on grappling and shoving checks.
Shield and absorb Element keeps you from dying to quickly. Gives your Fighter and Barbarian time to crack the piñata.
Other ways: Hex, expertise, Flash of geniuses , Hobgoblin, Bardic inspiration, Soul knive rouge…
Also works for Rune Knights or Moon Druids. Anything that can reliably turn you large or huge, together with a +10 athletic (str) modification.
Also as a DM if my bard player would lean into RP of insulting and mocking the Dragon, i would allow him to roll to see if he can enrage the dragon to the point where he doesn’t flee.