There are a lot of powerful spells in the game, especially for Clerics, but I've noticed that Conjure Celestial systematically turns the tide of even the most difficult fights, and completely obliterate enemies, all while healing allies for massive amounts of HP. We regularly end fights that would otherwise put us in the dirt without even a scratch, and I can feel our DM is starting to hate this spell.
I have Silvery Barbs thanks to Magic Initiate, Shield and Wall of Force thanks to a Cube of Force, all which are considered extremely powerful spells, but it's really Conjure Celestial that most of the time makes all the difference. And because I built my Cleric with War Caster and Resilient (CON), while heavily investing in CON for his stats, it's almost impossible to make him break concentration on this spell unless he takes a shitton of damage.
I don't think our DM will ever ban this spell or homebrew the enemies, he's a RAW kind of DM who does his best to stick by the rules (and he knows them really well), which drives me to wonder if I should just refrain from using it, if at least to make sure that our fights still have some tension in them.
This is a 7th level spell, and I think you must be 13th or higher level to cast it. A DM cam easily nerf your use by either increasing the opponents (by CR or actual #) or as soon as that spell and others are exhausted, create a second encounter that results in your party lacking high level spells.
It is possible that the DM actually has no issues with your constant use. Talk to them, and see if you need out of game restraint to cast it or just do it every time you can.
A DM cam easily nerf your use by either increasing the opponents (by CR or actual #)
No that's actually a very problematic "solution" because it makes it required for the problem spell to be cast which means the cleric in this case will never get to use their concentration for anything else, which IMO is very boring. The DM could simply add more encounters per day since you probably have only 1-2 castings of it per long rest, or they could HB or choose enemies with Dispel Magic if they get fed up with it.
The bigger question is whether you and your party are having fun? Some tables want fear & drama in their fights others don't. They are just two different styles, one isn't necessarily better than the other.
Well, you're level 13+ characters, whacking the party with 60 points of area damage is well within the appropriate threat level and will break your concentration just fine. It's also a pretty small area of effect, and it gets rendered completely useless by vision blocking spells. That said, it does seem on the powerful side for a level 7 spell, but by no means impossible to deal with, or even the most problematic spell at that level (both etherealness and plane shift are worse).
No that's actually a very problematic "solution" because it makes it required for the problem spell to be cast which means the cleric in this case will never get to use their concentration for anything else, which IMO is very boring. The DM could simply add more encounters per day since you probably have only 1-2 castings of it per long rest, or they could HB or choose enemies with Dispel Magic if they get fed up with it.
Yes plus we're level 17 now so I have level 8 and 9 slots for a total of 3 uses of this spell... But yeah, we're indeed having a lot of fun :)
Well, you're level 13+ characters, whacking the party with 60 points of area damage is well within the appropriate threat level and will break your concentration just fine. It's also a pretty small area of effect, and it gets rendered completely useless by vision blocking spells. That said, it does seem on the powerful side for a level 7 spell, but by no means impossible to deal with, or even the most problematic spell at that level (both etherealness and plane shift are worse).
You're right. Although we haven't met many enemies that could do that. Iron Golems came really close though.
You're right. Although we haven't met many enemies that could do that. Iron Golems came really close though.
This may just be 'trying to use the encounter building rules as written in tier 4'. At that level, I would consider dropping a meteor swarm on the party routine softening.
It's a powerful spell but not particularly hard to counter: Damage, darkness, blindness, stun, dispel, lots of ways to block line of sight, keep the caster from using actions - and so on. But as a divine orbital cannon or sky laser it's way cool.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Well, you're level 13+ characters, whacking the party with 60 points of area damage is well within the appropriate threat level and will break your concentration just fine. It's also a pretty small area of effect, and it gets rendered completely useless by vision blocking spells. That said, it does seem on the powerful side for a level 7 spell, but by no means impossible to deal with, or even the most problematic spell at that level (both etherealness and plane shift are worse).
I'm confused, why are those spells problematic?
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"Nothing goes over my head. My reflexes are to fast: I would catch it."
"I cannot comment on an ongoing investigation."
"Well of course I know that. What else is there? A kitten?"
"You'd like to think that, Wouldn't you?"
"What do you mean? An African or European swallow?"
Well, you're level 13+ characters, whacking the party with 60 points of area damage is well within the appropriate threat level and will break your concentration just fine. It's also a pretty small area of effect, and it gets rendered completely useless by vision blocking spells. That said, it does seem on the powerful side for a level 7 spell, but by no means impossible to deal with, or even the most problematic spell at that level (both etherealness and plane shift are worse).
I'm confused, why are those spells problematic?
Plane shift is a save or suck effect; if it goes off, the target is removed from combat unless it can use the same spell or Gate to return.
Etherealness will bypass a lot of obstacles unless the DM specifically plays the “there’s some special magic/material that blocks you” card. Which is their prerogative, but can create table conflict if they hadn’t considered it before designing an area and are clearly ad-libbing.
Well, you're level 13+ characters, whacking the party with 60 points of area damage is well within the appropriate threat level and will break your concentration just fine. It's also a pretty small area of effect, and it gets rendered completely useless by vision blocking spells. That said, it does seem on the powerful side for a level 7 spell, but by no means impossible to deal with, or even the most problematic spell at that level (both etherealness and plane shift are worse).
I'm confused, why are those spells problematic?
Plane shift is a save or suck effect; if it goes off, the target is removed from combat unless it can use the same spell or Gate to return.
Etherealness will bypass a lot of obstacles unless the DM specifically plays the “there’s some special magic/material that blocks you” card. Which is their prerogative, but can create table conflict if they hadn’t considered it before designing an area and are clearly ad-libbing.
They have removed that functionality from plane shift.
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"Nothing goes over my head. My reflexes are to fast: I would catch it."
"I cannot comment on an ongoing investigation."
"Well of course I know that. What else is there? A kitten?"
"You'd like to think that, Wouldn't you?"
"What do you mean? An African or European swallow?"
They have removed that functionality from plane shift.
The other issue with plane shift is that, unless the DM doesn't allow players to actually get material components (in which case it might as well be banned), it's highly likely to take the party off on random tangents the DM is not at all prepared for.
They have removed that functionality from plane shift.
The other issue with plane shift is that, unless the DM doesn't allow players to actually get material components (in which case it might as well be banned), it's highly likely to take the party off on random tangents the DM is not at all prepared for.
That's a very different issue than a spell being to powerful in combat.
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"Nothing goes over my head. My reflexes are to fast: I would catch it."
"I cannot comment on an ongoing investigation."
"Well of course I know that. What else is there? A kitten?"
"You'd like to think that, Wouldn't you?"
"What do you mean? An African or European swallow?"
I mean, depends a lot on the table dynamics. Imo there is a certain social contract that the party isn't going to hare off in some direction completely separate from anything the DM has prepared, and it doesn't seem particularly unreasonable to me that part of that involves the DM limiting what material components you can get.
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There are a lot of powerful spells in the game, especially for Clerics, but I've noticed that Conjure Celestial systematically turns the tide of even the most difficult fights, and completely obliterate enemies, all while healing allies for massive amounts of HP. We regularly end fights that would otherwise put us in the dirt without even a scratch, and I can feel our DM is starting to hate this spell.
I have Silvery Barbs thanks to Magic Initiate, Shield and Wall of Force thanks to a Cube of Force, all which are considered extremely powerful spells, but it's really Conjure Celestial that most of the time makes all the difference. And because I built my Cleric with War Caster and Resilient (CON), while heavily investing in CON for his stats, it's almost impossible to make him break concentration on this spell unless he takes a shitton of damage.
I don't think our DM will ever ban this spell or homebrew the enemies, he's a RAW kind of DM who does his best to stick by the rules (and he knows them really well), which drives me to wonder if I should just refrain from using it, if at least to make sure that our fights still have some tension in them.
This is a 7th level spell, and I think you must be 13th or higher level to cast it. A DM cam easily nerf your use by either increasing the opponents (by CR or actual #) or as soon as that spell and others are exhausted, create a second encounter that results in your party lacking high level spells.
It is possible that the DM actually has no issues with your constant use. Talk to them, and see if you need out of game restraint to cast it or just do it every time you can.
No that's actually a very problematic "solution" because it makes it required for the problem spell to be cast which means the cleric in this case will never get to use their concentration for anything else, which IMO is very boring. The DM could simply add more encounters per day since you probably have only 1-2 castings of it per long rest, or they could HB or choose enemies with Dispel Magic if they get fed up with it.
The bigger question is whether you and your party are having fun? Some tables want fear & drama in their fights others don't. They are just two different styles, one isn't necessarily better than the other.
Well, you're level 13+ characters, whacking the party with 60 points of area damage is well within the appropriate threat level and will break your concentration just fine. It's also a pretty small area of effect, and it gets rendered completely useless by vision blocking spells. That said, it does seem on the powerful side for a level 7 spell, but by no means impossible to deal with, or even the most problematic spell at that level (both etherealness and plane shift are worse).
Yes plus we're level 17 now so I have level 8 and 9 slots for a total of 3 uses of this spell...
But yeah, we're indeed having a lot of fun :)
You're right. Although we haven't met many enemies that could do that. Iron Golems came really close though.
This may just be 'trying to use the encounter building rules as written in tier 4'. At that level, I would consider dropping a meteor swarm on the party routine softening.
It's a powerful spell but not particularly hard to counter: Damage, darkness, blindness, stun, dispel, lots of ways to block line of sight, keep the caster from using actions - and so on. But as a divine orbital cannon or sky laser it's way cool.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I'm confused, why are those spells problematic?
Homebrew spell: dominance
Extended signature
Plane shift is a save or suck effect; if it goes off, the target is removed from combat unless it can use the same spell or Gate to return.
Etherealness will bypass a lot of obstacles unless the DM specifically plays the “there’s some special magic/material that blocks you” card. Which is their prerogative, but can create table conflict if they hadn’t considered it before designing an area and are clearly ad-libbing.
They have removed that functionality from plane shift.
Homebrew spell: dominance
Extended signature
The other issue with plane shift is that, unless the DM doesn't allow players to actually get material components (in which case it might as well be banned), it's highly likely to take the party off on random tangents the DM is not at all prepared for.
That's a very different issue than a spell being to powerful in combat.
Homebrew spell: dominance
Extended signature
I didn't say that those other spells were more powerful. I said they were more problematic.
I mean, depends a lot on the table dynamics. Imo there is a certain social contract that the party isn't going to hare off in some direction completely separate from anything the DM has prepared, and it doesn't seem particularly unreasonable to me that part of that involves the DM limiting what material components you can get.