So I had a character build in mind that was a unarmored warrior that used twin swords to fight but was wondering would it be better to fighter barbarian or fighter monk or is something else better.
You're not getting much from being a monk if you're fighting with weapons. You're, at the minimum, giving up all their bonus action attacks unless you want to make unarmed strikes, and those are a big deal.
If all of the monk's schtick, like stunning strikes, attack deflection, the subclass features, etc., seems to fit the character concept, you can talk to your DM about adjusting the class slightly so you can use monk weapons for the bonus action attacks and other things that specify unarmed strikes, but I doubt it's going to be a good fit, and you're giving up on things like weapon mastery to do it.
Meanwhile, barbarian has its own problems going unarmored, specifically that it's pointing you towards strength, and managing that for damage, while also keeping dex and con up for defense is a tricky proposition.
It sounds like you want a dex-based fighter build. To keep your AC up, you want to either use light armor, or use magic initiate or a spell caster dip for mage armor. (Warlock's probably the bast choice there.)
If this is 2025 rules, you could also consider dance bard as a multiclass on a DEX fighter base instead of barb, since that also gives you an Unarmored Defense option (10+DEX+CHA)
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
So I had a character build in mind that was a unarmored warrior that used twin swords to fight but was wondering would it be better to fighter barbarian or fighter monk or is something else better.
If you're willing to use mage armor, the straightforward solution to this is Magic Initiate as your origin feat, and then play a Fighter, Paladin, or Ranger. A 1 level dip in wizard or sorcerer is also entirely viable, as is a 1 level dip in Warlock to get Armor of Shadows, or if you're willing to suffer low AC for a couple levels, go Eldritch Knight at level 3.
If you're not up for using mage armor, I'd go for the monk dip; most barbarian features require strength attacks, which is generally going to be unhelpful.
You could also play as a tortle, and just go straight fighter :).
I’ve got a monk character I’ve been toying with giving a level in fighter. Mostly for the nick weapon mastery so I can throw 2 “throwing stars”(daggers) per attack, and still run up and punch people . I’m working on kind of a Ninja vibe. But I’ve been struggling to delay any of my monk levels so far.
You could also play as a tortle, and just go straight fighter :).
I’ve got a monk character I’ve been toying with giving a level in fighter. Mostly for the nick weapon mastery so I can throw 2 “throwing stars”(daggers) per attack, and still run up and punch people . I’m working on kind of a Ninja vibe. But I’ve been struggling to delay any of my monk levels so far.
Or go Rogue for Nick and Sneak Attack.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
TLDR: Build a multiclass x levels in monk and 1-3 levels in fighter. Focus on dex and wisdom. Pick scimitar and shortsword weapon masteries, pick two-weapon fighting style feat and attack with both swords and some kicks while not wearing armor.
For unarmored builds there 4 classes that get unarmed defense in 2024 rules. 2 as part of the base class and 2 as part of the 3rd level subclass features. The monk and barbarian get it as a base class feature while the bard and sorcerer get it through the college of dance and draconic sorcery subclasses.
The barbarian requires 3 ability scores for an unarmored build to be decent mechanically while the bard, sorcerer, and monk only require 2. Of the bard, sorcerer, and monk, the monk's unarmored defense comes online with 1 level instead of the 3 levels you'd need to select the correct subclasses for the bard and sorcerer.
That means the easiest way to build what you're looking for is with the monk. A monk on its own can use short swords and use kicks or elbows as unarmed strikes for martial arts/flurry of blows. The problem is that it doesn't really benefit from using two short swords because it already has a use for its bonus action that is better than the light property bonus action. Taking fighter levels helps this by getting you weapon masteries for Nick to make the light property attack as part of your attack action to avoid competing bonus action uses, the two-weapon fighting style feat to add your ability mod to the nick attack, action surge, and potentially subclass features. Once you get extra attack you can make 3 attacks with your swords during your attack action and 1-2 unarmed strikes with martial arts/flurry of blows. You would be dex based and limited to finesse weapons but that's fine. Because you're relying on dex and wisdom it's possible to get both stats to 20.
The sorcerer and bard have similar issues of not having weapon masteries or fighting style feats but also add the lack of a free hand for spell casting. Neither class comes with extra attack so you will want to multiclass probably to fighter and have a good chunk of levels into it. This would likely be dex and charisma build so like the monk it would be possible to get 20 in both.
Barbarians get weapon masteries and don't necessarily need the fighting style feat because rage damage sorta makes up for the lack of the ability modifier to the nick attack damage. The big issue is needing strength high because you need to use strength to benefit from rage or reckless attack, dex high for AC, and con high for AC and health. Even with optimal stat spread in point buy it's impossible to get all 3 to 20 to max AC and damage.
Personally I'd only go for 1 or 2 levels in Fighter; if you're a Monk main you don't want to defer many levels since that costs you Ki/Focus points, which are very important for Monks. Honestly I'd say Monk 5/Fighter 1/Monk X- Action Surge is nice but you're already getting a lot of attacks per round once you're doing TWF w/ Nick so your BA is free for FoB or just an Unarmed Attack, and generally speaking if you're leveling into your build it's better to go light on your dip. Now, if you're starting at tier 3 I could see doing a Fighter 3/Monk X split to get at something like Champion or Battlemaster.
Personally I'd only go for 1 or 2 levels in Fighter
You can pick either one as your class to all-in on; one or two levels of monk and everything else fighter is also perfectly viable. In a 1-20 campaign I might pick up a third level of monk so I can delay my level 16 fighter ASI until level 19 (for epic boons) though the level 3 abilities don't have great fighter synergy (however, the level 18 fighter subclass abilities are also mostly skippable).
Monk doesn't work well with two-weapon fighting because they need their bonus action for their various class features.
For Fighter, Ranger, and Rogue you don't get unarmored defence as a class feature, so you'll want to look into other options: Magic Initiate for Mage Armour, or Racial armour options (2014 rules) : Lizardfolk, Loxodon, Tortle, Thri-kreen, Autognome, Warforged or Simic Hybrid. Or ask your DM about allowing you to start with a set of Bracers of Defense.
Barbarian is the only class that does what you want straight out of the gate, you have to be a little careful with feats /ASIs if you want to rely on unarmoured defence.
Build (if playing from level 1): 15+2 STR, 14 DEX, 15+1 CON, 8 INT, 10 WIS, 8 CHA
Abilities score I would take with Point Buy: 8/15(+2)/14/8/15(+1)/10 (where you put the 10 would be up to you, based on character concept)
Feat choices I would look at:
Dual-Wielder (only if going the blade user route)
Defensive Duelist (For reaction AC boost that scales with Proficiency Bonus)
Mage Slayer (basically Legendary Resistance as a feat)
After getting the feats you want, I would just use Ability Score Improvements to bump up your Dex and Wisdom for higher AC and saving throws. By level 15 (Fighter 14/Monk 1) you could have Dual-Wielder, Defensive Duelist, and Mage Slayer, as well as maxed Dex/Wis, giving you 20AC with Unarmored Defense, and you would be making 5 attacks per turn. At Fighter 17 that would go up to 6 attacks per turn.
Ok so I want to clarify somethings first I can't go with bard because I don't play 2024 rules and the reason why I specifically stated that I wanted unarmored defence is for flavor reasons and not that I wanted my build to be as effective as possible so the best example of what I want the build to be like is inoskay from demon slayer
Ok so I want to clarify somethings first I can't go with bard because I don't play 2024 rules and the reason why I specifically stated that I wanted unarmored defence is for flavor reasons and not that I wanted my build to be as effective as possible so the best example of what I want the build to be like is inoskay from demon slayer
Oh, 2014 rules. Given the concept you're emulating, I'd go straight class barbarian. You won't get two weapon fighting, but that matters less than you might think.
If this is 2025 rules, you could also consider dance bard as a multiclass on a DEX fighter base instead of barb, since that also gives you an Unarmored Defense option (10+DEX+CHA)
Please stop suggesting Bard as a class somebody should select to play.
If this is 2025 rules, you could also consider dance bard as a multiclass on a DEX fighter base instead of barb, since that also gives you an Unarmored Defense option (10+DEX+CHA)
Please stop suggesting Bard as a class somebody should select to play.
What's so bad about Bards that you're telling somebody not to play the class?
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
I'd go Fighter1/BarbarianX for Two Weapon Fighting and then into Barbarian. It's easier to pump Unarmouored Defense with a Barbarian than it is a Monk as Monks use Wisdom and Barbarians use Constitution and you definitely want a higher CON on this character than WIS. Plus dual wielding sort of negates the point of taking Monk, which is bonus action unarmed strikes.
If this is 2025 rules, you could also consider dance bard as a multiclass on a DEX fighter base instead of barb, since that also gives you an Unarmored Defense option (10+DEX+CHA)
Please stop suggesting Bard as a class somebody should select to play.
What's so bad about Bards that you're telling somebody not to play the class?
Bard players are objectively the most insufferable players at -EVERY- table. In this specific case, in this specific thread, it's because it's just objectively worse than Barbarian for that the OP was looking for.
I'd go Fighter1/BarbarianX for Two Weapon Fighting and then into Barbarian. It's easier to pump Unarmouored Defense with a Barbarian than it is a Monk.
The problem is that a barbarian needs to use strength attacks. The easiest way to pump AC on an unarmored fighter is by raising dexterity on a build that uses finesse weapons.
I'd go Fighter1/BarbarianX for Two Weapon Fighting and then into Barbarian. It's easier to pump Unarmouored Defense with a Barbarian than it is a Monk.
The problem is that a barbarian needs to use strength attacks. The easiest way to pump AC on an unarmored fighter is by raising dexterity on a build that uses finesse weapons.
They don't NEED to - they're just incentivized to. That said, Barbarian 1/FighterX using finesse weapons would also be better than Monk and much less MAD. The way OP stated this thread leads me to believe he only wants to dip Barb or Monk for Unarmoured Defense, not to build around those classes.
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So I had a character build in mind that was a unarmored warrior that used twin swords to fight but was wondering would it be better to fighter barbarian or fighter monk or is something else better.
You're not getting much from being a monk if you're fighting with weapons. You're, at the minimum, giving up all their bonus action attacks unless you want to make unarmed strikes, and those are a big deal.
If all of the monk's schtick, like stunning strikes, attack deflection, the subclass features, etc., seems to fit the character concept, you can talk to your DM about adjusting the class slightly so you can use monk weapons for the bonus action attacks and other things that specify unarmed strikes, but I doubt it's going to be a good fit, and you're giving up on things like weapon mastery to do it.
Meanwhile, barbarian has its own problems going unarmored, specifically that it's pointing you towards strength, and managing that for damage, while also keeping dex and con up for defense is a tricky proposition.
It sounds like you want a dex-based fighter build. To keep your AC up, you want to either use light armor, or use magic initiate or a spell caster dip for mage armor. (Warlock's probably the bast choice there.)
If this is 2025 rules, you could also consider dance bard as a multiclass on a DEX fighter base instead of barb, since that also gives you an Unarmored Defense option (10+DEX+CHA)
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
If you're willing to use mage armor, the straightforward solution to this is Magic Initiate as your origin feat, and then play a Fighter, Paladin, or Ranger. A 1 level dip in wizard or sorcerer is also entirely viable, as is a 1 level dip in Warlock to get Armor of Shadows, or if you're willing to suffer low AC for a couple levels, go Eldritch Knight at level 3.
If you're not up for using mage armor, I'd go for the monk dip; most barbarian features require strength attacks, which is generally going to be unhelpful.
You could also play as a tortle, and just go straight fighter :).
I’ve got a monk character I’ve been toying with giving a level in fighter. Mostly for the nick weapon mastery so I can throw 2 “throwing stars”(daggers) per attack, and still run up and punch people . I’m working on kind of a Ninja vibe. But I’ve been struggling to delay any of my monk levels so far.
Or go Rogue for Nick and Sneak Attack.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
TLDR: Build a multiclass x levels in monk and 1-3 levels in fighter. Focus on dex and wisdom. Pick scimitar and shortsword weapon masteries, pick two-weapon fighting style feat and attack with both swords and some kicks while not wearing armor.
For unarmored builds there 4 classes that get unarmed defense in 2024 rules. 2 as part of the base class and 2 as part of the 3rd level subclass features. The monk and barbarian get it as a base class feature while the bard and sorcerer get it through the college of dance and draconic sorcery subclasses.
The barbarian requires 3 ability scores for an unarmored build to be decent mechanically while the bard, sorcerer, and monk only require 2. Of the bard, sorcerer, and monk, the monk's unarmored defense comes online with 1 level instead of the 3 levels you'd need to select the correct subclasses for the bard and sorcerer.
That means the easiest way to build what you're looking for is with the monk. A monk on its own can use short swords and use kicks or elbows as unarmed strikes for martial arts/flurry of blows. The problem is that it doesn't really benefit from using two short swords because it already has a use for its bonus action that is better than the light property bonus action. Taking fighter levels helps this by getting you weapon masteries for Nick to make the light property attack as part of your attack action to avoid competing bonus action uses, the two-weapon fighting style feat to add your ability mod to the nick attack, action surge, and potentially subclass features. Once you get extra attack you can make 3 attacks with your swords during your attack action and 1-2 unarmed strikes with martial arts/flurry of blows. You would be dex based and limited to finesse weapons but that's fine. Because you're relying on dex and wisdom it's possible to get both stats to 20.
The sorcerer and bard have similar issues of not having weapon masteries or fighting style feats but also add the lack of a free hand for spell casting. Neither class comes with extra attack so you will want to multiclass probably to fighter and have a good chunk of levels into it. This would likely be dex and charisma build so like the monk it would be possible to get 20 in both.
Barbarians get weapon masteries and don't necessarily need the fighting style feat because rage damage sorta makes up for the lack of the ability modifier to the nick attack damage. The big issue is needing strength high because you need to use strength to benefit from rage or reckless attack, dex high for AC, and con high for AC and health. Even with optimal stat spread in point buy it's impossible to get all 3 to 20 to max AC and damage.
Personally I'd only go for 1 or 2 levels in Fighter; if you're a Monk main you don't want to defer many levels since that costs you Ki/Focus points, which are very important for Monks. Honestly I'd say Monk 5/Fighter 1/Monk X- Action Surge is nice but you're already getting a lot of attacks per round once you're doing TWF w/ Nick so your BA is free for FoB or just an Unarmed Attack, and generally speaking if you're leveling into your build it's better to go light on your dip. Now, if you're starting at tier 3 I could see doing a Fighter 3/Monk X split to get at something like Champion or Battlemaster.
You can pick either one as your class to all-in on; one or two levels of monk and everything else fighter is also perfectly viable. In a 1-20 campaign I might pick up a third level of monk so I can delay my level 16 fighter ASI until level 19 (for epic boons) though the level 3 abilities don't have great fighter synergy (however, the level 18 fighter subclass abilities are also mostly skippable).
There's a few options:
Ranger, Rogue, Fighter, Barbarian.
Monk doesn't work well with two-weapon fighting because they need their bonus action for their various class features.
For Fighter, Ranger, and Rogue you don't get unarmored defence as a class feature, so you'll want to look into other options: Magic Initiate for Mage Armour, or Racial armour options (2014 rules) : Lizardfolk, Loxodon, Tortle, Thri-kreen, Autognome, Warforged or Simic Hybrid. Or ask your DM about allowing you to start with a set of Bracers of Defense.
Barbarian is the only class that does what you want straight out of the gate, you have to be a little careful with feats /ASIs if you want to rely on unarmoured defence.
Build (if playing from level 1): 15+2 STR, 14 DEX, 15+1 CON, 8 INT, 10 WIS, 8 CHA
Barbarian-5 -> Dual-Wielder (+1 STR)
Fighter -4 -> Defensive Duelist (+1 CON)
Barbarian - 11 -> Mage Slayer (+1 CON), +2 STR, +2 CON
Fighter 1 -> Monk 1 -> Fighter X
Abilities score I would take with Point Buy: 8/15(+2)/14/8/15(+1)/10 (where you put the 10 would be up to you, based on character concept)
Feat choices I would look at:
Dual-Wielder (only if going the blade user route)
Defensive Duelist (For reaction AC boost that scales with Proficiency Bonus)
Mage Slayer (basically Legendary Resistance as a feat)
After getting the feats you want, I would just use Ability Score Improvements to bump up your Dex and Wisdom for higher AC and saving throws. By level 15 (Fighter 14/Monk 1) you could have Dual-Wielder, Defensive Duelist, and Mage Slayer, as well as maxed Dex/Wis, giving you 20AC with Unarmored Defense, and you would be making 5 attacks per turn. At Fighter 17 that would go up to 6 attacks per turn.
1-20 build path (note: dumping 2 points of wisdom for secondary attributes will not hurt you severely; you still have quite a lot of defensive tools).
Ok so I want to clarify somethings first I can't go with bard because I don't play 2024 rules and the reason why I specifically stated that I wanted unarmored defence is for flavor reasons and not that I wanted my build to be as effective as possible so the best example of what I want the build to be like is inoskay from demon slayer
Oh, 2014 rules. Given the concept you're emulating, I'd go straight class barbarian. You won't get two weapon fighting, but that matters less than you might think.
Please stop suggesting Bard as a class somebody should select to play.
What's so bad about Bards that you're telling somebody not to play the class?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I'd go Fighter1/BarbarianX for Two Weapon Fighting and then into Barbarian. It's easier to pump Unarmouored Defense with a Barbarian than it is a Monk as Monks use Wisdom and Barbarians use Constitution and you definitely want a higher CON on this character than WIS. Plus dual wielding sort of negates the point of taking Monk, which is bonus action unarmed strikes.
Bard players are objectively the most insufferable players at -EVERY- table.
In this specific case, in this specific thread, it's because it's just objectively worse than Barbarian for that the OP was looking for.
The problem is that a barbarian needs to use strength attacks. The easiest way to pump AC on an unarmored fighter is by raising dexterity on a build that uses finesse weapons.
They don't NEED to - they're just incentivized to. That said, Barbarian 1/FighterX using finesse weapons would also be better than Monk and much less MAD. The way OP stated this thread leads me to believe he only wants to dip Barb or Monk for Unarmoured Defense, not to build around those classes.