This weekend I hope to be able to try out the UA Mass Combat rules. However, I've been thinking about the "battle map" and I have some questions. I would welcome anyone's experience and/or tips, suggestions for the following:
Battle Tatics; Is there a way to keep my PCs from learning my tactics? This might be more akin to preventing them from meta-gaming, but.
"Fog of War"
Flanking
Breaking the Line
Battle Map; Granted this is probably more Art than Science, but are there some general guidelines so as to not create a too-busy, too-crowded battle map?
High Ground, Low Ground
Obstacles
Cover
Also, am I over-thinking this? :-/
If it would help, I'm starting small-scale. It's roughly 50 creatures vs 50 creatures. The 'bad guys' are employing some Large creatures too. Therefore size-wise the 'bad guys' occupy more.
There's a bunch of things to take into consideration for a mass combat.
What kind of encounter is this?
Are the players attacking or defending?
Is this a siege of a keep, an invasion of a town, or a battle fought in the field?
What is the area surrounding this battle going to be like?
Is there a water source nearby? Forest? Mountains?
How much prep time does each side have?
Are the defenders able to set up traps, build trenches around the town, etc...?
Did the attackers bring siege weapons? Were they planning on meeting any resistance at all, for that matter?
What kind of forces does each side have? And would their makeup change the way they would do battle?
A city defending their borders might have a network of spies (rogues, bards, ninjas, etc...) that could infiltrate the enemy forces to poison, sow misinformation, learn tactics, etc...
A group of knights (paladins, fighters, monks, etc...) might disregard tactics like flanking or using tricks as dishonorable and choose to ride out at meet the battle head on
A group that has any seers (wizards, clerics, psions, etc...) might be able to scry/divine the battle tactics or weaknesses of the enemy forces.
Finally, how smart are the PCs? A Warlord type character (a War Cleric or a Battle Master Fighter for example) or a tactically intelligent character (a Wizard, Bard, etc... proficient in History) might be able to turn the tide.
Remember, the players (or at least their characters if they aren't meta gaming) learning the enemy's tactics ISN'T a bad thing. If the bad guys are using large unintelligent creatures, perhaps they deserve to be outsmarted. Think of a battle like Helm's Deep in the LotR books/movies or the Urgals in the Eragon books: The armies were full of normal (or lower-than-normal) intelligence creatures that simply marched forward and attempted to overwhelm with sheer numbers. While most battles are won or lost based on size advantage; a good battle strategy/defensive position can easily turn the tide.
In the same vein, perhaps the bad guys are led by a particularly crafty foe; one that possibly anticipates the PCs' tactics ahead of time and can use that knowledge to provide misinformation, maybe by using a feint to draw them to a trap or overestimate their defenses.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Thanks for the reply @sloporion. You have given me a lot of 'food for thought'. :-)
To your first question: the players will be defending on a field. though that may change.
To your second question: the setting is the frozen north with no water source nearby. though, again, that may change.
To your third question: there are no siege weapons involved, on either side. the players will have minimal time to prepare; definitely not enough for barricades, trenches, or traps.
To your fourth question: the players' side will mostly consistent of humanoids. the attacking side will be a mostly creatures. There will be 'smarts' on both sides.
However, more importantly, you have given me a lot to consider and think about. Because I'm starting small, this is essentially a large slug-fest. But, again from your reply, the possibilities... :D
Well, frozen north provides with ample opportunities for ambushes/traps. Think about how good snow would be for hiding in/under. Dig a hole, throw a white sheet/tarp down over the hole, put some snow on top of that to cover it: You've got a pit trap (or a hiding spot for an ambush).
Is the fort on a mountain? They've probably already built an avalanche trap to force choke points/crush invading forces.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Well, frozen north provides with ample opportunities for ambushes/traps. Think about how good snow would be for hiding in/under. Dig a hole, throw a white sheet/tarp down over the hole, put some snow on top of that to cover it: You've got a pit trap (or a hiding spot for an ambush).
Is the fort on a mountain? They've probably already built an avalanche trap to force choke points/crush invading forces.
I'm sorry @sloporion. I'm going to have to ask you stop providing such excellent feedback. I'm already pressed for time for this next session. However...for next time... ;-)
So, I'm planning a little 'play test' before tomorrow's session. I'm looking to see how to implement the UA Mass Combat Rules within my context. But it got me to wondering: how do I calculate EXP for this encounter?
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Add up the CR/XP of all those involved and divide by the number involved, would be my theory.
For example, if you have 20 ogres (450 xp each), that's 9000 XP. If you have 25 soldiers (including your PCs), that's 400 xp for your players.
Thank you @sloporion - simple, elegant, and direct.
Its important to remember the number of opponents alters the XP level by a certain amount because two monsters whose xp = 200 is harder than one monster whose level equals 200. Whether or not you want to reward this extra xp to the party might be a different story, but it is important to consider it when planning the encounter, otherwise the encounter will be too hard.
If everyone is the same level as the PCs, then 50 vs 50 is probably going to be about it. Really depends on the spells of the PCs.
Fog of war can be really hard to deal with. It works for the start of the battle, but eventually you are going to have PCs all over the place and have to keep track of where the PCs can see. Not to mentioning you are limited in being able to track monsters yourself, because the monster have to exist off the battle map. You then have to make sure you don't just plop a monster down halfway into the PCs field of vision. You can do it, but it might be easier to just ignore it.
The level of the PCs is important also, as area spells and such can really change the tide of a battle.
Fog of war: One easy way is don't put results on table unless a character can see. I only mark the results of battle on units on the table for units they can see. There is no reason to mark damage, broken units, etc. anywhere but in your notes unless a PC can see or get a report.
Second: use a second map on paper. i have left a unit standing in one spot immobile while I was tracking its actual movement on my map, and then only moved it when a PC could see. The first time you move a cavalry unit all the way across a map to attack the rear will create an interesting response and reward those smart enough to put out scouts.
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--
DM -- Elanon -- Homebrew world
Gronn -- Tiefling Warlock -- Amarath
Slim -- Halfling Cleric -- CoS (future Lord of Waterdeep 😁)
I'm really not sure the extra tracking is worth it. Especially if the PCs are trying to play smart. For starters leaving a unit on the board in a false location still indicates the PCs might notice where it is.
Smart PCs are then going to probably end up with something in the air and slowly move themselves to reveal the fog of war. Meaning a combat may take extra time with little gain.
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This weekend I hope to be able to try out the UA Mass Combat rules. However, I've been thinking about the "battle map" and I have some questions. I would welcome anyone's experience and/or tips, suggestions for the following:
Also, am I over-thinking this? :-/
If it would help, I'm starting small-scale. It's roughly 50 creatures vs 50 creatures. The 'bad guys' are employing some Large creatures too. Therefore size-wise the 'bad guys' occupy more.
Thanks!
I wear pants, short pants.
I also ask a lot of questions; insatiably curious
There's a bunch of things to take into consideration for a mass combat.
Remember, the players (or at least their characters if they aren't meta gaming) learning the enemy's tactics ISN'T a bad thing. If the bad guys are using large unintelligent creatures, perhaps they deserve to be outsmarted. Think of a battle like Helm's Deep in the LotR books/movies or the Urgals in the Eragon books: The armies were full of normal (or lower-than-normal) intelligence creatures that simply marched forward and attempted to overwhelm with sheer numbers. While most battles are won or lost based on size advantage; a good battle strategy/defensive position can easily turn the tide.
In the same vein, perhaps the bad guys are led by a particularly crafty foe; one that possibly anticipates the PCs' tactics ahead of time and can use that knowledge to provide misinformation, maybe by using a feint to draw them to a trap or overestimate their defenses.
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
Click Here to Download the Mind Flayer: Thoon Hulk converted from 4e via DM's Guild
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Thanks for the reply @sloporion. You have given me a lot of 'food for thought'. :-)
To your first question: the players will be defending on a field. though that may change.
To your second question: the setting is the frozen north with no water source nearby. though, again, that may change.
To your third question: there are no siege weapons involved, on either side. the players will have minimal time to prepare; definitely not enough for barricades, trenches, or traps.
To your fourth question: the players' side will mostly consistent of humanoids. the attacking side will be a mostly creatures. There will be 'smarts' on both sides.
However, more importantly, you have given me a lot to consider and think about. Because I'm starting small, this is essentially a large slug-fest. But, again from your reply, the possibilities... :D
I wear pants, short pants.
I also ask a lot of questions; insatiably curious
Well, frozen north provides with ample opportunities for ambushes/traps. Think about how good snow would be for hiding in/under. Dig a hole, throw a white sheet/tarp down over the hole, put some snow on top of that to cover it: You've got a pit trap (or a hiding spot for an ambush).
Is the fort on a mountain? They've probably already built an avalanche trap to force choke points/crush invading forces.
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
Click Here to Download the Mind Flayer: Thoon Hulk converted from 4e via DM's Guild
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
I wear pants, short pants.
I also ask a lot of questions; insatiably curious
So, I'm planning a little 'play test' before tomorrow's session. I'm looking to see how to implement the UA Mass Combat Rules within my context. But it got me to wondering: how do I calculate EXP for this encounter?
With the exception of this upcoming battle, I've been using this site to make sure I don't TPK my players: http://dhmholley.co.uk/encounter-calculator-5th/
How does everyone else calculate EXP for battles?
I wear pants, short pants.
I also ask a lot of questions; insatiably curious
Add up the CR/XP of all those involved and divide by the number involved, would be my theory.
For example, if you have 20 ogres (450 xp each), that's 9000 XP. If you have 25 soldiers (including your PCs), that's 400 xp for your players.
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
Click Here to Download the Mind Flayer: Thoon Hulk converted from 4e via DM's Guild
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
I wear pants, short pants.
I also ask a lot of questions; insatiably curious
Fog of war can be really hard to deal with. It works for the start of the battle, but eventually you are going to have PCs all over the place and have to keep track of where the PCs can see. Not to mentioning you are limited in being able to track monsters yourself, because the monster have to exist off the battle map. You then have to make sure you don't just plop a monster down halfway into the PCs field of vision. You can do it, but it might be easier to just ignore it.
The level of the PCs is important also, as area spells and such can really change the tide of a battle.
Fog of war: One easy way is don't put results on table unless a character can see. I only mark the results of battle on units on the table for units they can see. There is no reason to mark damage, broken units, etc. anywhere but in your notes unless a PC can see or get a report.
Second: use a second map on paper. i have left a unit standing in one spot immobile while I was tracking its actual movement on my map, and then only moved it when a PC could see. The first time you move a cavalry unit all the way across a map to attack the rear will create an interesting response and reward those smart enough to put out scouts.
--
DM -- Elanon -- Homebrew world
Gronn -- Tiefling Warlock -- Amarath
Slim -- Halfling Cleric -- CoS (future Lord of Waterdeep 😁)
Bran -- Human Wizard - RoT
Making D&D mistakes and having fun since 1977!
I'm really not sure the extra tracking is worth it. Especially if the PCs are trying to play smart. For starters leaving a unit on the board in a false location still indicates the PCs might notice where it is.
Smart PCs are then going to probably end up with something in the air and slowly move themselves to reveal the fog of war. Meaning a combat may take extra time with little gain.