Champion investment for critical range increase. 1 level into genie warlock dao to be able to deal bludgeoning damage once per turn on a crit. Elf two weapon fighting with elven accuracy to further increase the chance of getting the crit, perhaps make use of the double bladed scimitar too?
A dual wielding champion half orc could work as a decently effective crit fisher with piercer. Take dual wielder and piercer and grab two rapiers, with increased critical range and that offhand attack those 4d8 crits are gonna happen more than you think. This could also work with dual wielding lances which would be even cheesier and even more effective because your crits are now 4d12
I have always thought Dual Wielding works for any class that doesn't have proficiency with shields. Now, a Bard carrying two weapons might seem strange, but if they don't have anything else to use their B-A for, then why not take a swipe with your other hand. The Bards I play often get into melee at early levels, but take a step back later, but they are not afraid to step up with their rapier when it doesn't look like the situation warrants burning a spell slot.
Would I ever go so far as to make a Bard with a Dual Wielder build? Probably not.
I just want to point out that if your class doesn't have proficiency with shields, TWF looks more attractive.
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Making use of the help/dodge action and a use of bardic inspiration is probably more effective than attempting to two weapon fight as a bard.
the bards 1d8 hit die and lack of armor proficiencies usually makes getting up close a bad idea, unless you’re a subclass that has extra attack and armor proficiencies. Even then, you’re probably better off trying to make the party better than squaring out 2d6+mod.
I have always thought Dual Wielding works for any class that doesn't have proficiency with shields. Now, a Bard carrying two weapons might seem strange, but if they don't have anything else to use their B-A for, then why not take a swipe with your other hand. The Bards I play often get into melee at early levels, but take a step back later, but they are not afraid to step up with their rapier when it doesn't look like the situation warrants burning a spell slot.
Would I ever go so far as to make a Bard with a Dual Wielder build? Probably not.
I just want to point out that if your class doesn't have proficiency with shields, TWF looks more attractive.
That's a remarkably short list:
Bard (non-Valor)
Monk (has better than TWF built in)
Rogue
Sorcerer
Warlock (non-Hexblade)
Wizard
Of those, the only one not notorious for having a busy Bonus Action is the Wizard, but you could certainly have a Bladesinger who engages in TWF and just drops their second weapon to cast.
Most players of 5e will agree that dual-wielding is inherently suboptimal, which is to say it's just straight up worse than other options for most characters. But dual-wielding as a concept can be pretty awesome. So I've written this mini-guide for players who agree with the previous statement, and want to make a dual-wielding character.
The Rules:
"Two-Weapon Fighting
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it."
- PHB, pg. 195
The Dual Wielder feat allows the use of non-light weapons in dual-wielding, and gives a +1 to AC while wielding two weapons.
But the important thing is that Two-Weapon Fighting uses your bonus action, meaning there are many features, spells, and abilities you cannot use in combination with Two-Weapon Fighting on a single turn, which is the main reason why it is generally considered sub-optimal. This mini-guide mainly focuses on this when considering whether a class or archetype is optimal for dual-wielding.
The other thing to consider (for spellcasters) is that if you don't have Warcaster and a weapon useable as a spellcasting focus, you'll need to drop one of those weapons and grab a focus any time you cast a spell with material components. Depending on your DM, you may have to drop it even for somatic components.
Rating Key:
Red: Bad. Unless you've got a very specific idea for how to work around what a bad choice this is, it will stink. Either way, it's most likely going to be less powerful than not doing it.
Purple: Depends on the circumstances, but to the extent that there may often be times where this is a bad idea. Doesn't necessarily imply a lack of power potential. Purple can also mean that the character works as a dual-wielder, but has to sacrifice use of many important class features to do so.
Black: Average. Not really remarkable, and certainly something you can work with without missing out on a lot of other things.
Blue: Good. Within the context of the choice, this is a good idea.
Light Blue: This is probably the most optimal thing you can do, within the context of the choice.
These ratings are just my opinion, based mainly on my personal experiences with playing dual-wielders and dealing with "too many" bonus action options.
For Single-class builds:
Barbarians:Need their bonus action on the first turn of most combats to rage. In addition, dual-wielding Barbarians don't benefit from what some would argue to be the best feat for a Barbarian: Great Weapon Master. Reckless Attack and Rage damage are the only things really helping here, but they do help a lot. Just don't make a Berserker.
Bard: Sword Bards make pretty good dual-wielders since they get the fighting style and can add their Bardic Inspiration dice to their attacks. Anything else either probably shouldn't be in melee or gets too many bonus action features to be optimal. Bards can also use their weapons as spellcasting focuses. If you want to play a spell-casting dual-wielder, Swords Bard with Warcaster would be a pretty good choice.
Clerics: Need their bonus action to cast the spells like Healing Word or Shield of Faith, that, arguably, would be the reason why the melee character would be a Cleric, instead of, say, a Paladin. Plus, you will have to drop that sword to cast quite a few of your spells.
Druid: Same as Cleric, with the added disadvantage of not being proficient with heavy armor and not being allowed metal armor. If you want to play a melee Druid, turn into a Grizzly Bear and "dual-wield" your claws.
Fighter: Already get more attacks than anyone else at the higher levels, with Action Surge granting them even more but not another bonus action. Cavalier and Eldritch Knight already get bonus action attacks at certain levels, Samurai needs the bonus action for its main feature, Battlemaster doesn't really need an extra chance to hit, with Precision Strike and (taking a bonus action) Feinting Attack increasing accuracy. Champion may like dual-wielding if only for the extra chance to score a critical hit, but since that Champion is, as a dual-wielder, at most doing 2d8 damage with that crit, it's not as satisfying as most weapons would be.
Monk: Gets half of their damage and features attached to their bonus actions. Don't do this unless you have a specific magic item or concept you want to do. Niche builds like Dual-Wielder-feat-bearing monks can get a nice AC boost, especially Kensei.
Paladin: Uses their bonus actions for their smite spells. But if you just want more Divine Smites, this may be a decent option; 3 potential smites in 1 turn would seem to be worth it. Too bad you don't get the fighting style, though. With that in mind, this is purple for archetypes like the Vengeance Paladin who already have additional bonus action features, and just barely blue for Paladins who do not. Warcaster isn't necessary for your smites.
Ranger: While spells like Hunter's Mark could be useful against that one big enemy, the amount of bonus action spells and features that Rangers get make this a build only more useful for some then using some other bonus action ability. This would most likely be very bad when combined with Horizon Walker, Beastmaster, or Monster Slayer. Still decent because Gloomstalker or Hunter could likely make use of it.
Rogue (Not a Swashbuckler):This is pretty good, since Rogues normally only get one chance to hit per turn. Assassin especially can take advantage, so to speak, of this on their first turns in combat. But Cunning Action and that second attack can't be used together, so you'll have to plan on how your AC 14-17 rogue will stay out of too much trouble. Mobile could help. Don't combine this with a Mastermind or Inquisitive unless you have good reason. Would be blue, but when you're not playing a Swashbuckler, ranged attacking is almost always the better option for you, so you are sacrificing some real damage potential by playing, say, a Scout Dual-Wielder instead of a Scout Stealth Archer.
Rogue (Swashbuckler): I would argue that this is the best of all Dual-wielding choices. Fancy Footwork means that you no longer need to worry about staying out of trouble, and attacking an extra adjacent enemy means it's even more useful than it is for a single-weapon-holding Swashbuckler. Plus, you get that sneak attack damage even when no one is near your enemy! Amazing. This is my favorite choice for dual-wielders, and I would go so far as to say that a dual-wielding Swashbuckler is more optimal than a Swashbuckler who doesn't dual-wield, even if the latter of the two has a shield.
Sorcerer:If you're making a melee sorcerer, you're usually making a mistake anyways, but making a dual-wielding one is likely even worse. The only thing I can think of for this that would seem at all viable is a Draconic Origin (for natural armor) Sorcerer who...actually, almost any of these would probably be strictly worse than using Booming Blade and quickening it when necessary. And you do still have a d6 hit die. Warcaster won't save this choice.
Warlock: If you're playing a melee warlock, you're probably playing a Hexblade. That means you'll most likely be wanting to use Hexblade's Curse for your first bonus action, and regretfully forgoing any of the bonus action Invocations that involve that. But it's not a terrible idea, especially since you can have a Hexed blade in one hand and your Pact blade in the other, which a level 3 invocation lets you use as your spellcasting focus. Other Patrons' Warlocks need not apply. Warcaster will most likely help you quite a bit.
Wizard: Same as Sorcerer, except that Bladesinger, War Wizard, and Abjuration can give you a few useful features. But you still have d6 hit dice. Your Ward and/or AC boosts only help up until that one critical hit. Of course, like with Sorcerers, this is more of a problem with playing any Melee-focused Wizard, and not one really affected by dual-wielding. You can't use a weapon as a spellcasting focus, but you don't need it for everything.
Yes, I cheated a bit in this section. But overall, there aren't really that many optimal multiclass builds for your dual-wielder that wouldn't already be good multiclass builds to begin with. Of course, there are quite a few good multiclasses that just won't work for a dual-wielder, usually due to too many bonus action options. Barbarian/Rogue is a little better for dual wielders than for anyone else, though, I'd say.
I hope this mini-guide was helpful! I welcome any feedback and will certainly change ratings if given valid reason to do so.
So I am intrigued to see if dual wielding can be rehabilitated somewhat using the new feats from Tasha's.
Slasher:
You’ve learned where to cut to have the greatest results, granting you the following benefits:
Increase your Strength or Dexterity by 1, to a maximum of 20. Once per turn when you hit a creature with an attack that deals slashing damage, you can reduce the speed of the target by 10 feet until the start of your next turn. When you score a critical hit that deals slashing damage to a creature, you grievously wound it. Until the start of your next turn, the target has disadvantage on all attack rolls.
Crusher:
You are practiced in the art of crushing your enemies, granting you the following benefits:
Increase your Strength or Constitution by 1, to a maximum of 20.
Once per turn, when you hit a creature with an attack that deals bludgeoning damage, you can move it 5 feet to an unoccupied space, provided the target is no more than one size larger than you.
When you score a critical hit that deals bludgeoning damage to a creature, attack rolls against that creature are made with advantage until the start of your next turn.
A fighter with both of these feats could be a pretty decent controlling tank without having to rely on consumable resources. Battlemaster is the obvious candidate, but rune knight could be fun too.
Using both of these you could make a hit and run character who so long as they hit both times can cut the average humanoids speed down by half relative to the PC and then the PC would have a head start running
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[roll]7d6[/roll]
Every post these dice roll increasing my chances of winning the yahtzee thread (I wish (wait not the twist the wish threa-!))
I have been playing a Bardbarian for the past year, starting with 1 Barbarian, 4 Bard (School of Swords), then x Barbarian. Because this meant I had to wait a lot longer for Extra Attack, at level 4 I ditched the shield I was initially using, and added a javelin to my off-hand (Homebrew); I chose the Bard's Two-weapon Fighting Style. This gave me a little more flexibility in terms of ranged attacks, and helped with keeping Rage up. When recently Path of the Giant came out, I immediately jumped on it, envisioning a dual-wielding thrown build, with the damage bonus from the Bard's School as well as the Rage damage bonus from the Giant subclass - and two Returning weapons. Perfect for a second line defense, protecting the true ranged characters and spellcasters. Except that there aren't that many good RAW options for thrown builds, let alone TWF. And the weapons table woefully neglects thrown weapons. So, I did some dpr calculations (RPGbot), compared them for Dual Wielder (DW), Sharpshooter (SS), Pole-arm Master (PM), and the highest damage die weapons (1d12 and 2d6, no feat). PM shines in melee but falls off in thrown. SS (assuming it is allowed) is a little better than DW: a little more damage, and longer range. This really started me thinking of thrown DW as an in-between or flexible build, as it performs decently in both melee and short range. I still found it to be lacking in damage, however, so I factored in TWF with spears (1d8) instead of hand-axes (1d6). After all, there is no option for a thrown weapon over d6, and thrown weapons are heavily outclassed by bows, so I figured the versatile property made it reasonable to allow it with DW.
I'll share the little table I made - which is by no means complete or 100% correct, I'm sure! Base hit chance is 65% (STR 18). Level 14 MI assumes Mighty Impel is used (bonus action) and succeeds (thus no reckless attack is needed); only falling damage is corrected. Mixed average assumes 50-50 melee and ranged damage.
The real problem comes from a huge error in thinking. In real life... having an extra weapon does not increase the number of attacks. Instead it increases your chance of hitting.
Or of parrying, if you know how to do that.
So, if you want to implement better twf rules, here is the homebrew I would suggest:
Basic rules Home Brewed: TWF requires a second weapon in your off hand, the off hand weapon must be light, the main hand weapon must be one handed, not versatile. Gain +1 to hit when attacking. On a successful to hit roll of 8 or 18, your damage is based on the off hand weapon. You can also throw the either weapon as an attack, if it has the thrown weapon property, gaining the +1 to hit.
HB TWF Style: On a critical hit, in addition to double damage, you also add the damage from the off hand weapon one time. Your main hand weapon may be versatile and if you have three or more hands you may use two of them to wield a two handed weapon while using a third hand to TWF.
Keep in mind that in 5e TWF/dual wielding is purposefully nerfed. In 1e ( and 2-3.5) it was OP. I had a 1e. RL17 Ranger wielding double long swords that was regularly hasted. So 3 Attacks/ round doubled for the TWF then doubled again for the haste - 12 attacks a round - a true whirling dervish or bbegamatic all by himself. 5e’s version is a response to t hat sort of nonsense.
Champion investment for critical range increase. 1 level into genie warlock dao to be able to deal bludgeoning damage once per turn on a crit. Elf two weapon fighting with elven accuracy to further increase the chance of getting the crit, perhaps make use of the double bladed scimitar too?
A dual wielding champion half orc could work as a decently effective crit fisher with piercer. Take dual wielder and piercer and grab two rapiers, with increased critical range and that offhand attack those 4d8 crits are gonna happen more than you think. This could also work with dual wielding lances which would be even cheesier and even more effective because your crits are now 4d12
I have always thought Dual Wielding works for any class that doesn't have proficiency with shields. Now, a Bard carrying two weapons might seem strange, but if they don't have anything else to use their B-A for, then why not take a swipe with your other hand. The Bards I play often get into melee at early levels, but take a step back later, but they are not afraid to step up with their rapier when it doesn't look like the situation warrants burning a spell slot.
Would I ever go so far as to make a Bard with a Dual Wielder build? Probably not.
I just want to point out that if your class doesn't have proficiency with shields, TWF looks more attractive.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Making use of the help/dodge action and a use of bardic inspiration is probably more effective than attempting to two weapon fight as a bard.
the bards 1d8 hit die and lack of armor proficiencies usually makes getting up close a bad idea, unless you’re a subclass that has extra attack and armor proficiencies. Even then, you’re probably better off trying to make the party better than squaring out 2d6+mod.
That's a remarkably short list:
Of those, the only one not notorious for having a busy Bonus Action is the Wizard, but you could certainly have a Bladesinger who engages in TWF and just drops their second weapon to cast.
I'm
Using both of these you could make a hit and run character who so long as they hit both times can cut the average humanoids speed down by half relative to the PC and then the PC would have a head start running
[roll]7d6[/roll]
Every post these dice roll increasing my chances of winning the yahtzee thread (I wish (wait not the twist the wish threa-!))
Drummer Generated Title
After having been invited to include both here, I now combine the "PM me CHEESE 🧀 and tomato into PM me "PIZZA🍕"
I have been playing a Bardbarian for the past year, starting with 1 Barbarian, 4 Bard (School of Swords), then x Barbarian. Because this meant I had to wait a lot longer for Extra Attack, at level 4 I ditched the shield I was initially using, and added a javelin to my off-hand (Homebrew); I chose the Bard's Two-weapon Fighting Style. This gave me a little more flexibility in terms of ranged attacks, and helped with keeping Rage up.
When recently Path of the Giant came out, I immediately jumped on it, envisioning a dual-wielding thrown build, with the damage bonus from the Bard's School as well as the Rage damage bonus from the Giant subclass - and two Returning weapons. Perfect for a second line defense, protecting the true ranged characters and spellcasters. Except that there aren't that many good RAW options for thrown builds, let alone TWF. And the weapons table woefully neglects thrown weapons.
So, I did some dpr calculations (RPGbot), compared them for Dual Wielder (DW), Sharpshooter (SS), Pole-arm Master (PM), and the highest damage die weapons (1d12 and 2d6, no feat). PM shines in melee but falls off in thrown. SS (assuming it is allowed) is a little better than DW: a little more damage, and longer range. This really started me thinking of thrown DW as an in-between or flexible build, as it performs decently in both melee and short range. I still found it to be lacking in damage, however, so I factored in TWF with spears (1d8) instead of hand-axes (1d6). After all, there is no option for a thrown weapon over d6, and thrown weapons are heavily outclassed by bows, so I figured the versatile property made it reasonable to allow it with DW.
I'll share the little table I made - which is by no means complete or 100% correct, I'm sure! Base hit chance is 65% (STR 18).
Level 14 MI assumes Mighty Impel is used (bonus action) and succeeds (thus no reckless attack is needed); only falling damage is corrected.
Mixed average assumes 50-50 melee and ranged damage.
GRAPH
This is hugely complex in an unnecessary manner.
The real problem comes from a huge error in thinking. In real life... having an extra weapon does not increase the number of attacks. Instead it increases your chance of hitting.
Or of parrying, if you know how to do that.
So, if you want to implement better twf rules, here is the homebrew I would suggest:
Basic rules Home Brewed: TWF requires a second weapon in your off hand, the off hand weapon must be light, the main hand weapon must be one handed, not versatile. Gain +1 to hit when attacking. On a successful to hit roll of 8 or 18, your damage is based on the off hand weapon. You can also throw the either weapon as an attack, if it has the thrown weapon property, gaining the +1 to hit.
HB TWF Style: On a critical hit, in addition to double damage, you also add the damage from the off hand weapon one time. Your main hand weapon may be versatile and if you have three or more hands you may use two of them to wield a two handed weapon while using a third hand to TWF.
HB Dual Weilding feat: unchanged
Keep in mind that in 5e TWF/dual wielding is purposefully nerfed. In 1e ( and 2-3.5) it was OP. I had a 1e. RL17 Ranger wielding double long swords that was regularly hasted. So 3 Attacks/ round doubled for the TWF then doubled again for the haste - 12 attacks a round - a true whirling dervish or bbegamatic all by himself. 5e’s version is a response to t hat sort of nonsense.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Just a little side note. If a PC is duel wielding any weapon and a whip, enemies provoke opportunity attacks leaving the PC's 5' and/or 10' reach.
Nice if the PC benefits from more attacks, like a rage bonus, or from attacks made once per turn, like sneak attack or colossus slayer.