We are starting at level 7. The people I'm playing with are an Oath of Vengeance Paladin and a College of Whispers Bard. I'm not an expert on an party roles, but I'm pretty sure the Paladin can be a tank/striker/healer and the Bard is good at area effects. What sort of class(es) should I be considering? I'd like to round out the party as best I can. I was a monk in my last game, so I'd rather not be that again. Thanks.
In a party that small, I'd suggest a character that has full spellcasting but can also hold their own in melee if necessary. I'd recommend cleric (any domain will do, but light, life, or grave will probably help the most), war magic wizard, bladesinger wizard or hexblade warlock.
My default answer is what will you enjoy playing? While it’s nice to have all options covered, it’s not required in 5e.
I’m playing a Druid right now and they’re fun to role play and they can be pretty effective in melee as well as being full spellcasters, especially Circle of the Moon.
My thought is I’d go with a spellcaster too and I’d focus on affecting multiple opponents at once. Small parties don’t have a lot of actions per round and in D&D having a lot of actions is more important than being optimized in other ways, especially in small groups. I’d much rather face a single high CR opponent than a bunch of low CR opponents with a lower total CR than the high CR opponent’s CR. Since you’re a small party, I’d figure out how to neutralize as many opponents at once as possible.
College of whispers is a social area master, the subclass adds less than others available to combat, so you shouldnt need charisma based skills. Also a bard has half proficiency ranks in everything they are not proficient in so if you know what statistics they are weak on, check what skills there are a good match for you (to cover weaknesses)
The paladin has very limited spells, and will if like any other paladin, (and especially ones with vengeance in the title) burn up most of that in smiting.
So healing is great, or something that will allow you to mitigate incoming damage (if this is a we fight monsters game, not a we investigate mysteries game) Healing is also boring and can if your party keeps bleeding make you feel like your a wand of healing being dragged around as all your spells go towards refilling the hitpoint sinks. If you have access to Xanathars guide the celestial sorceror would allow you to some heals but also allow you to go down the pure sorcerer route, its quite nice as you try playing as priest (who doesnt wear armour and talks to congregations) or a sorcerer who can stop people dying. Also the Celestial warlock from the same book will provide some dedicated emergency healing and allow you to 'lock around' The downside of this is your party will not have any form of scout unless your bard is talented. (although a celestial lock with a pact of the chain and a particular invocation will completely alter this giving you a hilariously skilled scout)
Druids are a nice middle road choice, but in a three man party you may find your armour limitation could make you more of a liability when attacked. Barbarian could complement the Paladin quite well and give your opponents two targets to try to bypass to attack your bard. The barbarian may also depending on the subclass handle other weaknesses in group composition, just don't pick berserker you will die of exhaustion before day 3 if you go nuts. Any cleric is a fine addition to a party, so if you like clerics pick one that you like or synergises well with your team. Of all the classes the cleric subclasses are easily the most consistently good, there isnt (in my opinion) a bad choice. Fighter is a solid choice as well, good luck and have fun but remember, moon druids never sleep.
I agree that the armor limitation of druids is not fun. I'm thinking about taking the Magic Initiate feat to give him Mage Armor and a couple of cantrips to bump up his armor class.
If druid, mage armour could help out, it would be important to check with the GM if they had spells sticking to the druid when they switched forms, if yes that could substantially add to the defence of some animals using Mage armor in concert with dex. (if spells dont stick you can end blindness and other debuffs on you when you switch forms, either way something you want to know in advance)
Mage armour is one point less effective than hide armour if the druids dex bonus is +2 or less so there are other alternatives, but with the duo of bard and paladin as allies? A good solid choice, Silob what do you want to play? you have 7 levels of character I assume, is multiclassing an option?
Yeah. Multiclassing is on the table. I honestly don’t know what I want. Like I said, I was a Monk previosly (Way of th Palm? Not element or shadow). This is only my second character, so full spellcaster could be cool. I looking at the what would round out the party as a way to narrow it down and see what jumps out at me from there.
The way the rules are written, spells stick when druids wild shape. Most beasts have low enough AC’s that mage armor will help them by replacing their natural armor with a 13 and then adding on their dexterity bonus. Hide armor is +2, but mage armor is a base of 13 plus an unlimited dexterity bonus.
7th lvl? I would make a 4th lvl rogue/scout, 3rd lvl ranger/archer. Why?
Nature abilities, the other 2 have none, so now you're an expert
Rogue abilities, great to have in a group
DPS, the other two are average, you bring the pain, and at range.
Versatile skills. Go human variant and you'll have 5 skills you have expertise at, giving you a well rounded party outside of combat
Mobility, the other 2 are melee-ish, you can get around the battle field quickly
My 2 copper, for what it is worth
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Ancient GM, started in '76, have played almost everything at some point or another.
I run/play Mercer-style games, heavy on the RP and interaction, light on the combat-monster and rule-lawyering. The goal is to tell an epic story with the players and the players are as involved in the world building as the GM is. I run and play a very Brechtian style, am huge into RP theory and love discussing improv and offers.
I would play a spell caster to add more magic in the group but a Wizard or Sorcerer might be too squishy in a party without a cleric. So that would make Cleric, Druid, Ranger or Warlock as last choices. Unless you were willing to double up Paladin or Bard.
Of the four (Cleric, Druid, Ranger or Warlock) a Ranger or Warlock might be fun. Both can be very strong at range which would be a nice compliment to your Paladin.
As a Warlock you would make the group a triple threat in social circles. :) If the game is more urban with lots of NPC's to engage with that might be a fun way to go. In fact, the more I think about it the more I would pick a Warlock. Take a dip in Sorcerer for some mighty metamagic and Eldritch Blast you way to being a hero in the party. Or do more than a dip in Sorcerer if you are not concerned about the drop in hit points.
At 7th level you could be a Hexblade Warlock 7 and be able to go between melee and ranged fairly effortlessly. Or you could be a Hexblade Warlock 3/Shadow Sorcerer 4 and be an unholy terror casting spells in half plate.
I like the rogue ranger build, if you do as that's a solid and probably fun choice.
Hows this one,
Sorc1 / then warlock 3 pact of the tome/then sorcerer 2-4
Con saves for the inevitable concentration disrupting attacks, so many cantrips, so so many. If you want to go variant human, take spell sniper, you will rely on ranged quite a bit
Celestial sorcerer would add healing options and cleric spells to your possible utility, your metamagic options should be quicken and extend spell. Warlock, well you could be anything really but your invocations are Agonising blast (pact of the tome - prerequisite for Aspect of the moon invocation, you no longer sleep.) And this is where you become a monster.
As long as you don't exhaust yourself from over exertion (usually environmental as your unlikely to go to the gym) and drink and eat enough you wont ever need to sleep, which means you wont lose your sorcery point added spells. So every day you spend reading and taking short rests you burn your second level warlock slots for Sorcery points (never more than your max 4 points allowed at a time, so rest, convert to points, convert into a sorcerer spell slot, repeat and short rest, do that for 12 hours and 24 rounds and then enjoy your day off, Travelling? Invest in a comfortable steed you can meet rest requirements with or a transport. A day like this will grant you two extra 2nd level spells an hour, is it worth it? The usual combo is scorching ray (2nd) after applying hex, so each hit deals 2d6 fire and 1d6 necrotic. but how many do you have? Too many. Lets add quicken to it on round (bonus action) 2 and throw an eldritch bolt after it, run out of sorcery points this way and you can convert your stockpile of sorc spells back to points. Your party is wounded? Now your celestial sorcerer healing comes out, 2d8 heals for everyone!
Yes the cheese is real, and if allowed then expect, long arduous climbs to tire the party, surprising changes of weather requiring con saves to avoid thirst or hunger and anything to get you to sleep. This becomes an impossibility at 12th as your sorcerer pick will be greater restoration and you can self remove exhaustion (weird when you think that two applications of that after failing to eat and drink remove the penalty of not eating or drinking!)
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We are starting at level 7. The people I'm playing with are an Oath of Vengeance Paladin and a College of Whispers Bard. I'm not an expert on an party roles, but I'm pretty sure the Paladin can be a tank/striker/healer and the Bard is good at area effects. What sort of class(es) should I be considering? I'd like to round out the party as best I can. I was a monk in my last game, so I'd rather not be that again. Thanks.
In a party that small, I'd suggest a character that has full spellcasting but can also hold their own in melee if necessary. I'd recommend cleric (any domain will do, but light, life, or grave will probably help the most), war magic wizard, bladesinger wizard or hexblade warlock.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
My default answer is what will you enjoy playing? While it’s nice to have all options covered, it’s not required in 5e.
I’m playing a Druid right now and they’re fun to role play and they can be pretty effective in melee as well as being full spellcasters, especially Circle of the Moon.
My thought is I’d go with a spellcaster too and I’d focus on affecting multiple opponents at once. Small parties don’t have a lot of actions per round and in D&D having a lot of actions is more important than being optimized in other ways, especially in small groups. I’d much rather face a single high CR opponent than a bunch of low CR opponents with a lower total CR than the high CR opponent’s CR. Since you’re a small party, I’d figure out how to neutralize as many opponents at once as possible.
Professional computer geek
College of whispers is a social area master, the subclass adds less than others available to combat, so you shouldnt need charisma based skills. Also a bard has half proficiency ranks in everything they are not proficient in so if you know what statistics they are weak on, check what skills there are a good match for you (to cover weaknesses)
The paladin has very limited spells, and will if like any other paladin, (and especially ones with vengeance in the title) burn up most of that in smiting.
So healing is great, or something that will allow you to mitigate incoming damage (if this is a we fight monsters game, not a we investigate mysteries game) Healing is also boring and can if your party keeps bleeding make you feel like your a wand of healing being dragged around as all your spells go towards refilling the hitpoint sinks. If you have access to Xanathars guide the celestial sorceror would allow you to some heals but also allow you to go down the pure sorcerer route, its quite nice as you try playing as priest (who doesnt wear armour and talks to congregations) or a sorcerer who can stop people dying. Also the Celestial warlock from the same book will provide some dedicated emergency healing and allow you to 'lock around' The downside of this is your party will not have any form of scout unless your bard is talented. (although a celestial lock with a pact of the chain and a particular invocation will completely alter this giving you a hilariously skilled scout)
Druids are a nice middle road choice, but in a three man party you may find your armour limitation could make you more of a liability when attacked. Barbarian could complement the Paladin quite well and give your opponents two targets to try to bypass to attack your bard. The barbarian may also depending on the subclass handle other weaknesses in group composition, just don't pick berserker you will die of exhaustion before day 3 if you go nuts. Any cleric is a fine addition to a party, so if you like clerics pick one that you like or synergises well with your team. Of all the classes the cleric subclasses are easily the most consistently good, there isnt (in my opinion) a bad choice. Fighter is a solid choice as well, good luck and have fun but remember, moon druids never sleep.
I agree that the armor limitation of druids is not fun. I'm thinking about taking the Magic Initiate feat to give him Mage Armor and a couple of cantrips to bump up his armor class.
Professional computer geek
If druid, mage armour could help out, it would be important to check with the GM if they had spells sticking to the druid when they switched forms, if yes that could substantially add to the defence of some animals using Mage armor in concert with dex. (if spells dont stick you can end blindness and other debuffs on you when you switch forms, either way something you want to know in advance)
Mage armour is one point less effective than hide armour if the druids dex bonus is +2 or less so there are other alternatives, but with the duo of bard and paladin as allies? A good solid choice, Silob what do you want to play? you have 7 levels of character I assume, is multiclassing an option?
Yeah. Multiclassing is on the table. I honestly don’t know what I want. Like I said, I was a Monk previosly (Way of th Palm? Not element or shadow). This is only my second character, so full spellcaster could be cool. I looking at the what would round out the party as a way to narrow it down and see what jumps out at me from there.
The way the rules are written, spells stick when druids wild shape. Most beasts have low enough AC’s that mage armor will help them by replacing their natural armor with a 13 and then adding on their dexterity bonus. Hide armor is +2, but mage armor is a base of 13 plus an unlimited dexterity bonus.
Professional computer geek
7th lvl? I would make a 4th lvl rogue/scout, 3rd lvl ranger/archer. Why?
My 2 copper, for what it is worth
Ancient GM, started in '76, have played almost everything at some point or another.
I run/play Mercer-style games, heavy on the RP and interaction, light on the combat-monster and rule-lawyering. The goal is to tell an epic story with the players and the players are as involved in the world building as the GM is. I run and play a very Brechtian style, am huge into RP theory and love discussing improv and offers.
I would play a spell caster to add more magic in the group but a Wizard or Sorcerer might be too squishy in a party without a cleric. So that would make Cleric, Druid, Ranger or Warlock as last choices. Unless you were willing to double up Paladin or Bard.
Of the four (Cleric, Druid, Ranger or Warlock) a Ranger or Warlock might be fun. Both can be very strong at range which would be a nice compliment to your Paladin.
As a Warlock you would make the group a triple threat in social circles. :) If the game is more urban with lots of NPC's to engage with that might be a fun way to go. In fact, the more I think about it the more I would pick a Warlock. Take a dip in Sorcerer for some mighty metamagic and Eldritch Blast you way to being a hero in the party. Or do more than a dip in Sorcerer if you are not concerned about the drop in hit points.
At 7th level you could be a Hexblade Warlock 7 and be able to go between melee and ranged fairly effortlessly. Or you could be a Hexblade Warlock 3/Shadow Sorcerer 4 and be an unholy terror casting spells in half plate.
Current Characters I am playing: Dr Konstantin van Wulf | Taegen Willowrun | Mad Magnar
Check out my homebrew: Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Feats
I like the rogue ranger build, if you do as that's a solid and probably fun choice.
Hows this one,
Sorc1 / then warlock 3 pact of the tome/then sorcerer 2-4
Con saves for the inevitable concentration disrupting attacks, so many cantrips, so so many. If you want to go variant human, take spell sniper, you will rely on ranged quite a bit
Celestial sorcerer would add healing options and cleric spells to your possible utility, your metamagic options should be quicken and extend spell. Warlock, well you could be anything really but your invocations are Agonising blast (pact of the tome - prerequisite for Aspect of the moon invocation, you no longer sleep.) And this is where you become a monster.
As long as you don't exhaust yourself from over exertion (usually environmental as your unlikely to go to the gym) and drink and eat enough you wont ever need to sleep, which means you wont lose your sorcery point added spells. So every day you spend reading and taking short rests you burn your second level warlock slots for Sorcery points (never more than your max 4 points allowed at a time, so rest, convert to points, convert into a sorcerer spell slot, repeat and short rest, do that for 12 hours and 24 rounds and then enjoy your day off, Travelling? Invest in a comfortable steed you can meet rest requirements with or a transport. A day like this will grant you two extra 2nd level spells an hour, is it worth it? The usual combo is scorching ray (2nd) after applying hex, so each hit deals 2d6 fire and 1d6 necrotic. but how many do you have? Too many. Lets add quicken to it on round (bonus action) 2 and throw an eldritch bolt after it, run out of sorcery points this way and you can convert your stockpile of sorc spells back to points. Your party is wounded? Now your celestial sorcerer healing comes out, 2d8 heals for everyone!
Yes the cheese is real, and if allowed then expect, long arduous climbs to tire the party, surprising changes of weather requiring con saves to avoid thirst or hunger and anything to get you to sleep. This becomes an impossibility at 12th as your sorcerer pick will be greater restoration and you can self remove exhaustion (weird when you think that two applications of that after failing to eat and drink remove the penalty of not eating or drinking!)