I'm starting a new campaign soon with a great RP heavy group. So it's ok if this isn't the most efficient build as long as it isn't actively aweful.
I want to play a Mountain Dwarf Battlerager Barbarian that dips into Bard at some point.
The stat array I get to use is 18,16,15,12,10,9.
Since the battlerager wears armor he's not benefiting from unarmed defense, correct? So I don't need Dex very high, right? Can I get away with putting the 12 in Dex?
I'm thinking Lore Bard but can be convinced otherwise.
I know I'm starting with Barbarian and want him to lean more Barbarian than Bard overall.
I know he can't cast or concentrate while raging (but can inspire) so the spells should focus on out of combat utility.
So how many levels of Bard should he take ans at what levels should he take them?
What spells should he take, again, focusing on utility?
As far as stats go, I'd use 18 STR, 12 DEX, 16 CON, 9 INT, 10 WIS, 15 CHA.
Looking at the features gained and lost. A 3-5 level dip into lore bard looks mostly beneficial the main downside being slower barbarian progression, gaining extra skills, Jack of all trades, expertise, cutting words, song of rest (font of rest at 5), and spells (3rd level at 5).
At 6th level bard it gets a little harder to choose between barbarian's persistent rage or lore bard's additional magical secrets (and countercharm which I doubt will be used much).
The college of whisper bard would be a good 3-5 level dip, second to the college of lore. 2d6 to 3d6 psychic damage added to attacks (easily a match for cutting words), and basically a suped up intimidate, but no extra skills proficiencies. Less tempting to get level 6 feature too, so you can focus on persistent rage.
As for when to dip, after 5th level of barbarian would probably be best time. Get extra attack and fast movement first.
Switch the charisma and dex; assuming you're not multiclassing until 4 that's plenty of time to bump CHA up to 13 for the multiclass. You really don't need to be using save-based or attack roll spells, considering youre planning on grappling all day anyway, and you can self-buff as well with a 13 CHA as you can with a 20. You can either leave DEX at 15, or bump it up for better saves and maybe even Medium Armor Master, you've got plenty of ASI to spare with Strength starting at 20 at level 1.
Also just pointing out because why not, if you ever were tempted to play a Duergar, a grapple build punishes you less for sunlight sensitivity than almost anything else you can pick. Grapple attempts don't use attack rolls, and once you have them grappled, you can negate any disadvantage by investing in the Grappler feat. Kind of crappy to invest in a feat just to perform at the baseline level that a non-Duergar would... but hey, with those stats you've got Feats to spare, and its not every day you get this close to Sunlight Sensitivity being solvable!
I would dump the 9 into the dex. As a battlerager, you can just turn it into he's a very loud, and clumsy, battlerager, who with his spiked armor, doesn't "intend" to grapple his enemies and such while in the spiked armor, but he ends up grappled with them in that manner because he's so clumsy (9 dex), that it ends up happening.
a 9 in intelligence, if I was the DM, I'd have you rolling intelligence more often than you'd probably care for (not knowing how many you think is too much, but under the assumption that you thought the answer would have been 0), on your utility spells, for if in that situation you'd be smart enough to do that or think of it. and with only a 10 wisdom, you wouldn't necessarily learn from your mistakes to remember to do it in the future on a failed or successful attempt too.
a + mod Int, is worlds different in allowable concepts in RP than a - mod int. Example: Zone of Truth, when alone. negative int guy. tells truth things he shouldn't say. Doesn't necessarily ask the questions he should be asking for the truth. (essentially, firstly, were you smart enough to not be in your own zone of truth. Then secondly, did you interrogate properly)
8pack, what you're missing is that the spiked armor which Battleragers use is a specific sort of medium armor. Tanking Dex to 9 simply isn't an option, unless Pebcak's DM is willing to homebrew a Heavy Armor equivalent.
8pack, what you're missing is that the spiked armor which Battleragers use is a specific sort of medium armor. Tanking Dex to 9 simply isn't an option, unless Pebcak's DM is willing to homebrew a Heavy Armor equivalent.
So...
You're saying... that it's "Impossible" for him, to take the spiked armor, thats a medium armor, and find an armorer, or a blacksmith, that can put spikes on heavy armor?
how much "homebrewing" do you need. to have armor, with spikes, that do 1d6 piercing?
Edit: Also, I believe... and quote me if I am wrong here, I said what "I would" do... is dump the 9 into Dex.
if I want AC, I go heavy armor, if i want to RP up the battleraged and spiked armor, i go that route. if the dm is willing to after arduous searching for a master blacksmith allow me to overpay ridiculously, just to have some heavy armor with spikes cool, if not, no big deal.
Combat in 5e. is ridiculously easy, if you know what you're doing. RP'ing, that's not so easy as combat. Making creative or compelling characters, is a lot tougher, than just knowing your action economy, ranges, and rolling a die.
edit for the "useful ac": Define useful. How long's the campaign? at a certain point... enemies hit you no matter what. You're a barbarian, so, rage takes away half of most the damages anyways. and with dipping into bard, you won't want to be in the very front lines casting spells non-rage anyways if AC/taking hits is a concern. There's a lot of details not explained to how you envision your char, and how you want it to work.
I won't assume what options you have or don't have as available. I would just tell you, what I would do, based off the information you provided.
Battlerager and mostly RP game? Odd choice. Easier to go totem and play into the ritual speak with animals aspect as your bread and butter (and bird) RP. So how to design a rager for rp? If you want Bard later and with your stat options, at 4th level of barbarian take inspiring leadership and never ever shut up about how powerful you and your friends are... ever. Its a damage soaker and RP all in one. If anyone disagrees with a dwarf with nails in their clothes thats there mistake. Have athletics as a skill and check if some of your pointy armor spikes can double as climbing aids, if not wearing climbing aids. you have an axe, or pick make it a mountainf climbing one. Take a dip as bard - start yodelling. RP or insanity? your choice but it will be a talking point and make everything focus on you the spiky all terrain death machine who yodel mocks.
If combat is rare to never you could take a bard dip at 2nd, otherwise wait until you have your two attacks at barb 5, or even the 6th level rager benefit. Then move on to bard for as long as you want. As bard consider taking blade ward cantrip and when not raging boast that you can withstand 'any blow' halving your damage with it. Concentrate on spells that make you seem more unbelievably mythical but not a spell caster (longstrider for increased speed - no concentration)
Use as little or as much as you feel comfortable with and dont add charactersistics you will grow tired of quickly. Have fun!
Honestly bard just isn't as good for multiclassing with barbarian for grapple as rogue is, since you can't concentrate/cast spells while raging anyway. I get the whole Cutting Words thing, really I do, but all this talk of Charisma and bard spells is really getting everyone off track since you're actually asking how to make an effective build, not how to roleplay your character. I think you can figure that part out just fine!
If you want to be a brash loudmouth, be a swashbuckler rogue, and use 18 (20) Str, 16 Dex, 15 (17) Con, 9 int, 10 Wis, 12 Cha as your starting stats. With a small 4-level dip into rogue, you'll be able to sneak attack your grappled target each round whether or not anyone else is standing next to you for an extra 2d6, freely drop your grappled foe and run away without an AoO if needed, get a small boost to Initiative, Dash as a bonus to drag your grappled foe further if you need to move them around instead of spiking them for a round, and still get Expertise in Athletics. At level 4 take Medium Armor master, at level 8 take Dwarven Fortitute to bring Con to 18 and unlock the ability to heal yourself while Dodging (healing and dodging while grappling a big scary beast sounds like a useful tool to have in your back pocket), at 12 take +2 Con to get to 20.... and from there, there's nothing more you even really need at 16 and 19, so you can either take nice bonus feats like Tough, Grappler, Tavern Brawler, Sentinel, or Mage Slayer, or lose a feat to pick up a fifth level of Rogue for one more d6 on your sneak attack and Uncanny Dodge, so that you take 1/4 damage from attacks while raging instead of 1/2!
That's just my two cents, but I really feel like a build that starts at 16 AC and ends at 17 AC while taking 1/4 damage is going to feel better for you at the table then one that is stuck at 13 and can't cast spells while grappling anyway :|
What rule is it that prevents spell casting while grappling or being grappled? being "restrained" would prevent Somatic parts of a spell. But, not every grapple causes restrained status.
I'm starting a new campaign soon with a great RP heavy group. So it's ok if this isn't the most efficient build as long as it isn't actively aweful.
I want to play a Mountain Dwarf Battlerager Barbarian that dips into Bard at some point.
The stat array I get to use is 18,16,15,12,10,9.
Since the battlerager wears armor he's not benefiting from unarmed defense, correct? So I don't need Dex very high, right? Can I get away with putting the 12 in Dex?
I'm thinking Lore Bard but can be convinced otherwise.
I know I'm starting with Barbarian and want him to lean more Barbarian than Bard overall.
I know he can't cast or concentrate while raging (but can inspire) so the spells should focus on out of combat utility.
So how many levels of Bard should he take ans at what levels should he take them?
What spells should he take, again, focusing on utility?
Thanks for the help.
I did a little bit of searching when I was toying around with the idea.
I came across https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/809rkw/5e_how_would_you_build_a_bardbarian/duubasv which tied me over the edge into 'heck yes I want to play that'. But I still had a few questions after reading that thread. Hence, this thread.
As far as stats go, I'd use 18 STR, 12 DEX, 16 CON, 9 INT, 10 WIS, 15 CHA.
Looking at the features gained and lost. A 3-5 level dip into lore bard looks mostly beneficial the main downside being slower barbarian progression, gaining extra skills, Jack of all trades, expertise, cutting words, song of rest (font of rest at 5), and spells (3rd level at 5).
At 6th level bard it gets a little harder to choose between barbarian's persistent rage or lore bard's additional magical secrets (and countercharm which I doubt will be used much).
The college of whisper bard would be a good 3-5 level dip, second to the college of lore. 2d6 to 3d6 psychic damage added to attacks (easily a match for cutting words), and basically a suped up intimidate, but no extra skills proficiencies. Less tempting to get level 6 feature too, so you can focus on persistent rage.
As for when to dip, after 5th level of barbarian would probably be best time. Get extra attack and fast movement first.
Switch the charisma and dex; assuming you're not multiclassing until 4 that's plenty of time to bump CHA up to 13 for the multiclass. You really don't need to be using save-based or attack roll spells, considering youre planning on grappling all day anyway, and you can self-buff as well with a 13 CHA as you can with a 20. You can either leave DEX at 15, or bump it up for better saves and maybe even Medium Armor Master, you've got plenty of ASI to spare with Strength starting at 20 at level 1.
Also just pointing out because why not, if you ever were tempted to play a Duergar, a grapple build punishes you less for sunlight sensitivity than almost anything else you can pick. Grapple attempts don't use attack rolls, and once you have them grappled, you can negate any disadvantage by investing in the Grappler feat. Kind of crappy to invest in a feat just to perform at the baseline level that a non-Duergar would... but hey, with those stats you've got Feats to spare, and its not every day you get this close to Sunlight Sensitivity being solvable!
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I would dump the 9 into the dex. As a battlerager, you can just turn it into he's a very loud, and clumsy, battlerager, who with his spiked armor, doesn't "intend" to grapple his enemies and such while in the spiked armor, but he ends up grappled with them in that manner because he's so clumsy (9 dex), that it ends up happening.
a 9 in intelligence, if I was the DM, I'd have you rolling intelligence more often than you'd probably care for (not knowing how many you think is too much, but under the assumption that you thought the answer would have been 0), on your utility spells, for if in that situation you'd be smart enough to do that or think of it. and with only a 10 wisdom, you wouldn't necessarily learn from your mistakes to remember to do it in the future on a failed or successful attempt too.
a + mod Int, is worlds different in allowable concepts in RP than a - mod int.
Example: Zone of Truth, when alone. negative int guy. tells truth things he shouldn't say. Doesn't necessarily ask the questions he should be asking for the truth. (essentially, firstly, were you smart enough to not be in your own zone of truth. Then secondly, did you interrogate properly)
https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Zone of Truth#content
Blank
How would you recommend getting to a useful AC with a 9 Dex?
Heavy Armor.
can always use a feat on it, vs trying to ABI build up the dex as well as the con.
1 feat, and 2000 gold for platemail. vs trying to force a stat.
And, the low dex, adds built in RP moments of clumsiness/fat man jokes/etc.
Blank
8pack, what you're missing is that the spiked armor which Battleragers use is a specific sort of medium armor. Tanking Dex to 9 simply isn't an option, unless Pebcak's DM is willing to homebrew a Heavy Armor equivalent.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
So...
You're saying... that it's "Impossible" for him, to take the spiked armor, thats a medium armor, and find an armorer, or a blacksmith, that can put spikes on heavy armor?
how much "homebrewing" do you need. to have armor, with spikes, that do 1d6 piercing?
Edit: Also, I believe... and quote me if I am wrong here, I said what "I would" do... is dump the 9 into Dex.
if I want AC, I go heavy armor, if i want to RP up the battleraged and spiked armor, i go that route. if the dm is willing to after arduous searching for a master blacksmith allow me to overpay ridiculously, just to have some heavy armor with spikes cool, if not, no big deal.
Combat in 5e. is ridiculously easy, if you know what you're doing. RP'ing, that's not so easy as combat. Making creative or compelling characters, is a lot tougher, than just knowing your action economy, ranges, and rolling a die.
edit for the "useful ac": Define useful. How long's the campaign? at a certain point... enemies hit you no matter what. You're a barbarian, so, rage takes away half of most the damages anyways. and with dipping into bard, you won't want to be in the very front lines casting spells non-rage anyways if AC/taking hits is a concern. There's a lot of details not explained to how you envision your char, and how you want it to work.
I won't assume what options you have or don't have as available. I would just tell you, what I would do, based off the information you provided.
::shrug::
Blank
Battlerager and mostly RP game? Odd choice. Easier to go totem and play into the ritual speak with animals aspect as your bread and butter (and bird) RP. So how to design a rager for rp? If you want Bard later and with your stat options, at 4th level of barbarian take inspiring leadership and never ever shut up about how powerful you and your friends are... ever. Its a damage soaker and RP all in one. If anyone disagrees with a dwarf with nails in their clothes thats there mistake. Have athletics as a skill and check if some of your pointy armor spikes can double as climbing aids, if not wearing climbing aids. you have an axe, or pick make it a mountainf climbing one. Take a dip as bard - start yodelling. RP or insanity? your choice but it will be a talking point and make everything focus on you the spiky all terrain death machine who yodel mocks.
If combat is rare to never you could take a bard dip at 2nd, otherwise wait until you have your two attacks at barb 5, or even the 6th level rager benefit. Then move on to bard for as long as you want. As bard consider taking blade ward cantrip and when not raging boast that you can withstand 'any blow' halving your damage with it. Concentrate on spells that make you seem more unbelievably mythical but not a spell caster (longstrider for increased speed - no concentration)
Use as little or as much as you feel comfortable with and dont add charactersistics you will grow tired of quickly. Have fun!
Honestly bard just isn't as good for multiclassing with barbarian for grapple as rogue is, since you can't concentrate/cast spells while raging anyway. I get the whole Cutting Words thing, really I do, but all this talk of Charisma and bard spells is really getting everyone off track since you're actually asking how to make an effective build, not how to roleplay your character. I think you can figure that part out just fine!
If you want to be a brash loudmouth, be a swashbuckler rogue, and use 18 (20) Str, 16 Dex, 15 (17) Con, 9 int, 10 Wis, 12 Cha as your starting stats. With a small 4-level dip into rogue, you'll be able to sneak attack your grappled target each round whether or not anyone else is standing next to you for an extra 2d6, freely drop your grappled foe and run away without an AoO if needed, get a small boost to Initiative, Dash as a bonus to drag your grappled foe further if you need to move them around instead of spiking them for a round, and still get Expertise in Athletics. At level 4 take Medium Armor master, at level 8 take Dwarven Fortitute to bring Con to 18 and unlock the ability to heal yourself while Dodging (healing and dodging while grappling a big scary beast sounds like a useful tool to have in your back pocket), at 12 take +2 Con to get to 20.... and from there, there's nothing more you even really need at 16 and 19, so you can either take nice bonus feats like Tough, Grappler, Tavern Brawler, Sentinel, or Mage Slayer, or lose a feat to pick up a fifth level of Rogue for one more d6 on your sneak attack and Uncanny Dodge, so that you take 1/4 damage from attacks while raging instead of 1/2!
That's just my two cents, but I really feel like a build that starts at 16 AC and ends at 17 AC while taking 1/4 damage is going to feel better for you at the table then one that is stuck at 13 and can't cast spells while grappling anyway :|
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
What rule is it that prevents spell casting while grappling or being grappled?
being "restrained" would prevent Somatic parts of a spell. But, not every grapple causes restrained status.
I just want to know where you're coming from.
Blank
I'm just assuming that if he's grappling, he's raging. And raging does prevent spellcasting/concentration.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Ah.
You were unclear, as you said can't cast spells while grappling.
Not "can't cast spells while raging"
And, OP did say he wanted his spells more for out of combat utility. reminder.
Blank
Thats what we Call a Bard-Barian, Give him an Axe and a Thunder Luth(electric guitar) and Call Him Eddy and play Black Sabbath with the volume up!
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Kain de Frostberg- Dark Knight - (Vengeance Pal3/ Hexblade 9), Port Mourn
Kain de Draakberg-Dark Knight lvl8-Avergreen(DitA)