I wanna make an archery based Battle-Master Fighter that uses the occasional trick arrow. I'll use my tinkering proficiency to fashion these arrows (explosive arrows, grappling hook arrows, entangling arrows, Etc.) But how do I set the DC?
Example: "when hit by an entangling arrow, a creature must succeed a dexterity saving throw or be grappled."
I'm thinking 10 + proficiency modify + intelligence modifier. Is 10 too strong? Would 8 be better?
DCs for most abilities are 8 + proficiency + mod, I don't think it would be a good idea to change the model unless you have a really good reason for it.
Also, if you're going with Battle Master why not use the same DC that they have suggested for the Maneuvers? Since you're able to do many of those "trick arrow" type abilities with the maneuvers already, with a ranged weapon, I see no reason to change anything.
You have no reason to tinker anything since you could use Trip Attack maneuver with an arrow to trip. You could use Disarming Attack to disarm a person, with an arrow... I don't read anything that says you can't, it uses the term "Use an Attack Action" which does not exclude ranged attacks.
Yeah, trick arrows sounds like a really cool idea for non-combat effects like grappling hooks, noise makers, smoke clouds, etc... but as far as combat tricks go, as a Battlemaster you already have a mechanic for doing pretty much anything conceivable, so I'd be hesitant about giving yourself even more combat abilities with homebrew items, with entirely different DC mechanics.
The difference is that these trick arrows would not output the same damage as my maneuvers since I wouldn't be using my superiority die. I also wouldn't need to have a spare superiority die to use them.
The maneuvers and their DC reflect my ability to hit the target just so to make them drop their weapon or trip, while the 8 + proficiency + intelligence (dc 12 atm) reflects my ability to construct an effective arrow.
I'm not trying to power game or anything, Battle Master just fits the concept better than, say, Samurai.
Keep in mind, I imagen I'd need to make tinker checks to craft the arrows in the first place, so it's not like I'd have a lot of them at all times.
You're running a very high risk of making a class archetype obsolete by doing what you're proposing. BM gives you all the tools necessary to do what you're trying to do, already built into the class archetype. Your proposal, by my understanding, removes the resource limitation to allow you to use those abilities at will at the cost of some extra damage.
While you may not "want" to powergame, you are risking exactly that. Superiority dice are a resource, a limited one to make the class shine when used properly. You may be limited on the amount of arrows in your quiver at first, it won't always be that way. A tinker check, which can become trivial with the right management of stats, is a limitless resource, you can roll the die as many times as you have arrows and parts.
Since you're forgoing the BM superiority dice and damage, why not just forgo the entire class? Ranger is better suited to your idea than Fighter, and you get a lot more to supplement your idea. Hunters mark, Volley, Colossus Slayer, and all those other tricks make your idea much more valuable. Your party won't need a BM fighter, since you can do all those tricks and not spend the resources.
I'm all for players coming up with fun ideas for their characters to explore, it's half the fun of the game for them. However, if an idea crosses over into another archetype to the point of making it obsolete, I will have a very difficult time letting it happen. I urge you to take a look at your idea and see how it fairs against a class mechanic that offers the same opportunity, just because it sounds good on paper doesn't mean it's going to be applicable in the sense of balance.
*sigh* I suppose I can just flavor my maneuvers as trick arrows. I really do hate playing over powered characters. Thanks for the feedback guys.
As a last ditch appeal for the concept, would the trick arrows still be over powered if I used them as a rogue rather than a fighter?
I like to home brew items, but I don't like changing the mechanics of the classes so much, other wise I'd make a ranger that uses trick arrows rather than spells. A smoke bomb arrow rather than the fog cloud spell for example.
That's a neat item Texas! Same advice though... you should set your DCs as 8+Performance not 10, to bring it more in baseline with Battlemaster DCs and other abilities.
Also, the "pick up a dropped weapon" free action in the PHB is sufficiently vague about which space that item is in, that you might want to buff Disarming Shot to 10 feet, if your intent was to accomplish something more than the "lands at their feet" that a generic disarm/battlemaster maneuver accomplishes.
Just brainstorming. Maybe you could voluntairily take disadvantage to perform a trick shot. Provided you don’t have disadvantage allready. Or maybe give up advantage?
It's up to you and the DM on how best to play that. You could potentially do disadvantage if you were making a trick shot as an attack roll like trying to shoot a guy in the leg to make him stagger. If you were shooting at an object (putting out a candle, splitting a rope, hitting a bullseye to show off, then you could make a skill check with an appropriately difficult DC.
a rogue in my campaign uses traps and trick arrows. I dont see the point of using the 8+prof route to decide the DC. It works with maneuvers and spells cast by the character. however arrows/bolts are pre-made products. if the character itself makes the arrow I can understand going the forementioned route. But many are bought/found and for those I'd just set the DC to 15 by default.
Giblix, that's a good point about whether the skill of the person shooting the arrow or the person crafting it should set the DC to resist certain special effects. Magic Stone is a good example of a spell that contemplates handing out an item one has made to others, but having them use the strength of your magic to resolve its attack. If you wanted to do something similar for special crafted items like arrows (or poisons, etc.), that could be an interesting way to do it. The math supporting the DC you set should probably be based off of 8+prof+stat... but especially if something is being made behind the scenes by NPCs that aren't actually statted out, no one will ever know if you just set the DC at a level you think is appropriate :)
In this theoretical build, if I was making the trick arrows, and adding my intelligence to the DC, I'd be sacrificing my Core stats in order to boost my otherwise useless intelligence. I think that keeps it all pretty balanced. I would be sacrificing my likeliness to hit and damage for versatility.
If you are going to pin something on intelligence that your character will be built around, Giving yourself a free +2 by starting the DC at 10 instead of 8 is the equivalent of giving yourself at least an extra 5 or 6 attribute point buy points, or 5-8 levels of character progression... you're basically either getting a phantom +2 intelligence or proficiency modifier over what other similarly-leveled similarly-statted characters will have. A level 1 fighter with 16 or 17 intelligence (maybe a Hobgoblin, or a vhuman?) is firing off DC 15 arrows, while any other character in the group is going to at most be using DC 13 for abilities, and left wondering why your guy is so much "better." With heavy armor proficiency, a 15 strength, 15 con, 15 intelligence, 8 everything else, your stat array isn't really sacrificing "core stats".
But ultimately, your DM may be less concerned about that, and your party more supportive... offering advice from the outside, devoid of context for how it'll play with your group can only go so far! Good luck!
If you are going to pin something on intelligence that your character will be built around, Giving yourself a free +2 by starting the DC at 10 instead of 8 is the equivalent of giving yourself at least an extra 5 or 6 attribute point buy points, or 5-8 levels of character progression.
Like others have said, DC (where needed) would be 8 + proficiency + Intelligence modifier of the person who makes the arrow. Also consider if it would work, for example the "entangle arrow" which grapples probably wouldn't work from a bow (crossbow maybe, but even then maybe not). Also have significantly reduced ranges for the arrows (with no long range) as they're heavier or badly weighted now, e.g. 60ft. Also "Special arrows" might be a better term as these aren't for trick shots, but for special effect.
Grappling hook arrow is good and could even be used in combat in interesting ways. If a contested grapple (using the grappling hook) occurred, you would probably use the lower of your roll and the DC (doesn't matter how strong you are if the arrow/rope breaks)
Explosive arrow is fairly easy to rule, however I would probably say you need proficiency in alchemist's tools to handle the gunpowder safely and make something that would work (or have someone else who has that help you, taking the lower DC of the two of you)
Smoke bomb arrow, again alchemist's tools to make the smoke bomb part (DC/roll determines smoke radius) unless you buy smoke bombs and attach them yourself.
(for crossbow) Net bolt (max range 20 or 30ft), action to fire (regardless of crossbow expert feat) but restrains a medium or smaller target.
(Also for the entangling arrow, you'd be taking away from the ranger who has that as a spell)
I would say to focus more on utility than damage with your ideas (and maybe use them in weird ways in combat) and make sure to share them with other bow users as well to spread out the ability to do more. The arrows also take time and skill to make, so you won't be making a lot of them unless you have extended downtime with money to burn.
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I wanna make an archery based Battle-Master Fighter that uses the occasional trick arrow. I'll use my tinkering proficiency to fashion these arrows (explosive arrows, grappling hook arrows, entangling arrows, Etc.) But how do I set the DC?
Example: "when hit by an entangling arrow, a creature must succeed a dexterity saving throw or be grappled."
I'm thinking 10 + proficiency modify + intelligence modifier. Is 10 too strong? Would 8 be better?
DCs for most abilities are 8 + proficiency + mod, I don't think it would be a good idea to change the model unless you have a really good reason for it.
Also, if you're going with Battle Master why not use the same DC that they have suggested for the Maneuvers? Since you're able to do many of those "trick arrow" type abilities with the maneuvers already, with a ranged weapon, I see no reason to change anything.
You have no reason to tinker anything since you could use Trip Attack maneuver with an arrow to trip. You could use Disarming Attack to disarm a person, with an arrow... I don't read anything that says you can't, it uses the term "Use an Attack Action" which does not exclude ranged attacks.
Yeah, trick arrows sounds like a really cool idea for non-combat effects like grappling hooks, noise makers, smoke clouds, etc... but as far as combat tricks go, as a Battlemaster you already have a mechanic for doing pretty much anything conceivable, so I'd be hesitant about giving yourself even more combat abilities with homebrew items, with entirely different DC mechanics.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
The difference is that these trick arrows would not output the same damage as my maneuvers since I wouldn't be using my superiority die. I also wouldn't need to have a spare superiority die to use them.
The maneuvers and their DC reflect my ability to hit the target just so to make them drop their weapon or trip, while the 8 + proficiency + intelligence (dc 12 atm) reflects my ability to construct an effective arrow.
I'm not trying to power game or anything, Battle Master just fits the concept better than, say, Samurai.
Keep in mind, I imagen I'd need to make tinker checks to craft the arrows in the first place, so it's not like I'd have a lot of them at all times.
You're running a very high risk of making a class archetype obsolete by doing what you're proposing. BM gives you all the tools necessary to do what you're trying to do, already built into the class archetype. Your proposal, by my understanding, removes the resource limitation to allow you to use those abilities at will at the cost of some extra damage.
While you may not "want" to powergame, you are risking exactly that. Superiority dice are a resource, a limited one to make the class shine when used properly. You may be limited on the amount of arrows in your quiver at first, it won't always be that way. A tinker check, which can become trivial with the right management of stats, is a limitless resource, you can roll the die as many times as you have arrows and parts.
Since you're forgoing the BM superiority dice and damage, why not just forgo the entire class? Ranger is better suited to your idea than Fighter, and you get a lot more to supplement your idea. Hunters mark, Volley, Colossus Slayer, and all those other tricks make your idea much more valuable. Your party won't need a BM fighter, since you can do all those tricks and not spend the resources.
I'm all for players coming up with fun ideas for their characters to explore, it's half the fun of the game for them. However, if an idea crosses over into another archetype to the point of making it obsolete, I will have a very difficult time letting it happen. I urge you to take a look at your idea and see how it fairs against a class mechanic that offers the same opportunity, just because it sounds good on paper doesn't mean it's going to be applicable in the sense of balance.
*sigh* I suppose I can just flavor my maneuvers as trick arrows. I really do hate playing over powered characters. Thanks for the feedback guys.
As a last ditch appeal for the concept, would the trick arrows still be over powered if I used them as a rogue rather than a fighter?
I like to home brew items, but I don't like changing the mechanics of the classes so much, other wise I'd make a ranger that uses trick arrows rather than spells. A smoke bomb arrow rather than the fog cloud spell for example.
You know what would go great with those trick arrows? A trickshot longbow!
"Not all those who wander are lost"
That's a neat item Texas! Same advice though... you should set your DCs as 8+Performance not 10, to bring it more in baseline with Battlemaster DCs and other abilities.
Also, the "pick up a dropped weapon" free action in the PHB is sufficiently vague about which space that item is in, that you might want to buff Disarming Shot to 10 feet, if your intent was to accomplish something more than the "lands at their feet" that a generic disarm/battlemaster maneuver accomplishes.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Just brainstorming. Maybe you could voluntairily take disadvantage to perform a trick shot. Provided you don’t have disadvantage allready. Or maybe give up advantage?
It's up to you and the DM on how best to play that. You could potentially do disadvantage if you were making a trick shot as an attack roll like trying to shoot a guy in the leg to make him stagger. If you were shooting at an object (putting out a candle, splitting a rope, hitting a bullseye to show off, then you could make a skill check with an appropriately difficult DC.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
a rogue in my campaign uses traps and trick arrows. I dont see the point of using the 8+prof route to decide the DC. It works with maneuvers and spells cast by the character. however arrows/bolts are pre-made products. if the character itself makes the arrow I can understand going the forementioned route. But many are bought/found and for those I'd just set the DC to 15 by default.
I think Chicken was pointing out that 8+skill was an already-established way of doing things. Obviously as DM, you are free to do it any way you like.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Giblix, that's a good point about whether the skill of the person shooting the arrow or the person crafting it should set the DC to resist certain special effects. Magic Stone is a good example of a spell that contemplates handing out an item one has made to others, but having them use the strength of your magic to resolve its attack. If you wanted to do something similar for special crafted items like arrows (or poisons, etc.), that could be an interesting way to do it. The math supporting the DC you set should probably be based off of 8+prof+stat... but especially if something is being made behind the scenes by NPCs that aren't actually statted out, no one will ever know if you just set the DC at a level you think is appropriate :)
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
In this theoretical build, if I was making the trick arrows, and adding my intelligence to the DC, I'd be sacrificing my Core stats in order to boost my otherwise useless intelligence. I think that keeps it all pretty balanced. I would be sacrificing my likeliness to hit and damage for versatility.
If you are going to pin something on intelligence that your character will be built around, Giving yourself a free +2 by starting the DC at 10 instead of 8 is the equivalent of giving yourself at least an extra 5 or 6 attribute point buy points, or 5-8 levels of character progression... you're basically either getting a phantom +2 intelligence or proficiency modifier over what other similarly-leveled similarly-statted characters will have. A level 1 fighter with 16 or 17 intelligence (maybe a Hobgoblin, or a vhuman?) is firing off DC 15 arrows, while any other character in the group is going to at most be using DC 13 for abilities, and left wondering why your guy is so much "better." With heavy armor proficiency, a 15 strength, 15 con, 15 intelligence, 8 everything else, your stat array isn't really sacrificing "core stats".
But ultimately, your DM may be less concerned about that, and your party more supportive... offering advice from the outside, devoid of context for how it'll play with your group can only go so far! Good luck!
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Like others have said, DC (where needed) would be 8 + proficiency + Intelligence modifier of the person who makes the arrow. Also consider if it would work, for example the "entangle arrow" which grapples probably wouldn't work from a bow (crossbow maybe, but even then maybe not). Also have significantly reduced ranges for the arrows (with no long range) as they're heavier or badly weighted now, e.g. 60ft. Also "Special arrows" might be a better term as these aren't for trick shots, but for special effect.
Grappling hook arrow is good and could even be used in combat in interesting ways. If a contested grapple (using the grappling hook) occurred, you would probably use the lower of your roll and the DC (doesn't matter how strong you are if the arrow/rope breaks)
Explosive arrow is fairly easy to rule, however I would probably say you need proficiency in alchemist's tools to handle the gunpowder safely and make something that would work (or have someone else who has that help you, taking the lower DC of the two of you)
Smoke bomb arrow, again alchemist's tools to make the smoke bomb part (DC/roll determines smoke radius) unless you buy smoke bombs and attach them yourself.
(for crossbow) Net bolt (max range 20 or 30ft), action to fire (regardless of crossbow expert feat) but restrains a medium or smaller target.
(Also for the entangling arrow, you'd be taking away from the ranger who has that as a spell)
I would say to focus more on utility than damage with your ideas (and maybe use them in weird ways in combat) and make sure to share them with other bow users as well to spread out the ability to do more. The arrows also take time and skill to make, so you won't be making a lot of them unless you have extended downtime with money to burn.