Cantrips are not great by design, otherwise there'd be no point in melee attacks. Warlock are the exception, but they require a hefty investment to be on par with a regular weapon attack.
This is assuming that the spell caster is investing points into either dex or str (or a hexblade or using Shillelagh which is, of course, a cantrip), which usually will be the case. There are some exceptions, notably Loxodon that is using Constitution exclusively as their defensive stat without using hexblade to get Charisma for their melee stat. Of course, part of the trade off with Cantrips not having as much damage without a significant investment is the fact that many of them can be cast at range AND at will, something that even ranged weapons can't say without a reasonable investment into ammunition (at least monetary, possibly inventory depending on how much of an inventory stickler the DM is). But your point here is definitely a good one.
I agree. Just take the Magic Initiate/Warlock feat and use the Eldritch Blast/Hex combo. 1d10+1d6 is a decent combo that will scale with level and won't slow down your casting progressing. Hex also has lots of utility out of combat as a debuff spell.
A bard got so much better to do with their concentration than Hex.
Cantrips are not great by design, otherwise there'd be no point in melee attacks. Warlock are the exception, but they require a hefty investment to be on par with a regular weapon attack.
Cantrips actually stay pretty on par with martial attacks. And if you don't have extra attack (or sneak attack), then you can't do more weapon damage at level 5 or higher than a decent cantrip (d8 damage dice ir higher).
It takes 2 rounds to set up, but Silent Image combined with Minor Illusion can create an extra opponent behind your enemies that they can hear and see. Sure after 1-2 rounds it will be dispelled, but with some creativity you can get 2 rounds of distracting several opponents out of the combination.
This is assuming that the spell caster is investing points into either dex or str (or a hexblade or using Shillelagh which is, of course, a cantrip), which usually will be the case. There are some exceptions, notably Loxodon that is using Constitution exclusively as their defensive stat without using hexblade to get Charisma for their melee stat. Of course, part of the trade off with Cantrips not having as much damage without a significant investment is the fact that many of them can be cast at range AND at will, something that even ranged weapons can't say without a reasonable investment into ammunition (at least monetary, possibly inventory depending on how much of an inventory stickler the DM is). But your point here is definitely a good one.
My point was more about comparing a caster's cantrip to a Fighter's melee attack. If they did the same damage, there wouldn't be much point in being a fighter.
This is of course a gross oversimplification, but that's part of the design, i think.
I'm going to ask a question in a completely different direction ...
Is the DM adjusting the combat encounter to keep things fun for your party? If you have a small party and one character is a support character then it seems an adjustment in the CR of the monsters might be needed to maintain balance. If your table is full of power gamers, then you should discard the idea of playing a support character and create a more suitable character named "Tanks for the Memories."
I would play a Lore Bard. I enjoy the concept of a Lore Bard. But there needs to be some adjustments made on the DMs side of the screen to keep everything fun.
If the general premise is "Why isn't my Lore Bard kicking ass like the Bear Totem Barbarian who has all the fun?" Then it seems to me you're playing the wrong class if you think the big damage dealers have all the fun.
This is assuming that the spell caster is investing points into either dex or str (or a hexblade or using Shillelagh which is, of course, a cantrip), which usually will be the case. There are some exceptions, notably Loxodon that is using Constitution exclusively as their defensive stat without using hexblade to get Charisma for their melee stat. Of course, part of the trade off with Cantrips not having as much damage without a significant investment is the fact that many of them can be cast at range AND at will, something that even ranged weapons can't say without a reasonable investment into ammunition (at least monetary, possibly inventory depending on how much of an inventory stickler the DM is). But your point here is definitely a good one.
My point was more about comparing a caster's cantrip to a Fighter's melee attack. If they did the same damage, there wouldn't be much point in being a fighter.
This is of course a gross oversimplification, but that's part of the design, i think.
Very fair point. I think that the cantrips for EK are best utilized for niche builds, warcaster + BB AoOs with the intent to stop movement (sans sentinel and very DM dependent), and for additional tools to address varying situations. Damage definitely is a secondary concern when multiple attacks are available, particularly with weapons greater than d8. Other than that, the primary difference is the play aesthetics of using a magical strike, which wouldn't be focused on maximizing damage.
I'm going to ask a question in a completely different direction ...
Is the DM adjusting the combat encounter to keep things fun for your party? If you have a small party and one character is a support character then it seems an adjustment in the CR of the monsters might be needed to maintain balance. If your table is full of power gamers, then you should discard the idea of playing a support character and create a more suitable character named "Tanks for the Memories."
I would play a Lore Bard. I enjoy the concept of a Lore Bard. But there needs to be some adjustments made on the DMs side of the screen to keep everything fun.
If the general premise is "Why isn't my Lore Bard kicking ass like the Bear Totem Barbarian who has all the fun?" Then it seems to me you're playing the wrong class if you think the big damage dealers have all the fun.
I wouldn't, because Bards is actually a very strong class. They just don't do a lot of damage themselves.
Just look at Faerie Fire, any enemy who fail their original save get attacked with advantage for the whole duration, without any other chance to save. How many miss will get turned into a hit with just this one spell ? That may not be direct damage, but when you see a player attacking and rolling a 3 and a 14, there's basically a 50% chance the whole hit has the bard's name on it.
Not to mention saving throws. You missed that saving throw that you really shouldn't miss ? Just add that die I gave you earlier in the fight. Don't worry, i get those back on a short rest, just turn that failure into a success, and keep pummeling the bad guy !
Their turns will never be the flashiest, or even look like much really, and a lot of time you'll just pray for the DM to roll bad so you can deal a puny d4 damage with your Vicious Mockery, but that disadvantage you give might save your party a lot of damage, and give you just an extra turn before you really need to start healing.
Lore Bards might not be the flashiest of the bards in fight, because most of their features don't revolve around it, but even then, they have so many Magical Secrets, if they want to do damage, they can just pick up a spell or two from the Sorcerer of Wizard spell list.
The majority (like 99%) of Bard combat spells require concentration.
I can only maintain concentration on one spell at a time.
So, when my turn in combat comes around, I have two options a.) maintain concentration on my existing spell and use my hand xbow to do inconsequential amounts of damage this round or b.) feel like I'm making a contribution to the fight be casting a new spell which the enemy will now have to adapt to.
The result is that I'm casting spells too often and running out of spells too quickly. What can I do differently than I'm doing now which will slow down how quickly I'm running out of spells.
I am really curious on what your build is where this is a problem.
Running out of spell slots, it could happen to any caster trying to burst damage, heal or use control/buff/debuff spells. I think the main issue is Bards lack a strong damage range cantrip.
Okay lets look at it this way, in a standard "day" there should be at most 3 encounters in a day. say you are a level 5 bard then. you have access to 4 1st level spell slots 3 2nd level spell slots and 2 3rd level spell slots. Say you use upwards of 2-3 spells per combat encounter you still have 1 or 2 spells left at the end of the day. your main job as a bard is to be the support or utility caster which is why bane/fearie fire and such are very very good spells for a bard to pick. the forced disadvantage from viscous mockery is worth way way more then a d8 dmg dice.
Well if all he wants is a good dmg cantrip for him to use he can just take 1 or 2 level in any of the other caster classes for their cantrips. since cantrips scale with your general level anyway
Well if all he wants is a good dmg cantrip for him to use he can just take 1 or 2 level in any of the other caster classes for their cantrips. since cantrips scale with your general level anyway
Sorcerer is great for this, since they get 4 cantrips and a subclass feature at level 1.
Warlocks are better for 2 level dips for invocations.
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This is assuming that the spell caster is investing points into either dex or str (or a hexblade or using Shillelagh which is, of course, a cantrip), which usually will be the case. There are some exceptions, notably Loxodon that is using Constitution exclusively as their defensive stat without using hexblade to get Charisma for their melee stat. Of course, part of the trade off with Cantrips not having as much damage without a significant investment is the fact that many of them can be cast at range AND at will, something that even ranged weapons can't say without a reasonable investment into ammunition (at least monetary, possibly inventory depending on how much of an inventory stickler the DM is). But your point here is definitely a good one.
Cantrips actually stay pretty on par with martial attacks. And if you don't have extra attack (or sneak attack), then you can't do more weapon damage at level 5 or higher than a decent cantrip (d8 damage dice ir higher).
It takes 2 rounds to set up, but Silent Image combined with Minor Illusion can create an extra opponent behind your enemies that they can hear and see. Sure after 1-2 rounds it will be dispelled, but with some creativity you can get 2 rounds of distracting several opponents out of the combination.
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My point was more about comparing a caster's cantrip to a Fighter's melee attack. If they did the same damage, there wouldn't be much point in being a fighter.
This is of course a gross oversimplification, but that's part of the design, i think.
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I'm going to ask a question in a completely different direction ...
Is the DM adjusting the combat encounter to keep things fun for your party? If you have a small party and one character is a support character then it seems an adjustment in the CR of the monsters might be needed to maintain balance. If your table is full of power gamers, then you should discard the idea of playing a support character and create a more suitable character named "Tanks for the Memories."
I would play a Lore Bard. I enjoy the concept of a Lore Bard. But there needs to be some adjustments made on the DMs side of the screen to keep everything fun.
If the general premise is "Why isn't my Lore Bard kicking ass like the Bear Totem Barbarian who has all the fun?" Then it seems to me you're playing the wrong class if you think the big damage dealers have all the fun.
Very fair point. I think that the cantrips for EK are best utilized for niche builds, warcaster + BB AoOs with the intent to stop movement (sans sentinel and very DM dependent), and for additional tools to address varying situations. Damage definitely is a secondary concern when multiple attacks are available, particularly with weapons greater than d8. Other than that, the primary difference is the play aesthetics of using a magical strike, which wouldn't be focused on maximizing damage.
I wouldn't, because Bards is actually a very strong class. They just don't do a lot of damage themselves.
Just look at Faerie Fire, any enemy who fail their original save get attacked with advantage for the whole duration, without any other chance to save. How many miss will get turned into a hit with just this one spell ? That may not be direct damage, but when you see a player attacking and rolling a 3 and a 14, there's basically a 50% chance the whole hit has the bard's name on it.
Not to mention saving throws. You missed that saving throw that you really shouldn't miss ? Just add that die I gave you earlier in the fight. Don't worry, i get those back on a short rest, just turn that failure into a success, and keep pummeling the bad guy !
Their turns will never be the flashiest, or even look like much really, and a lot of time you'll just pray for the DM to roll bad so you can deal a puny d4 damage with your Vicious Mockery, but that disadvantage you give might save your party a lot of damage, and give you just an extra turn before you really need to start healing.
Lore Bards might not be the flashiest of the bards in fight, because most of their features don't revolve around it, but even then, they have so many Magical Secrets, if they want to do damage, they can just pick up a spell or two from the Sorcerer of Wizard spell list.
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Earth Tremor, Sleep and Shatter are all 3 very worthy dmg/dmg mitigation spells for the first 5 levels of any bard
I am really curious on what your build is where this is a problem.
Running out of spell slots, it could happen to any caster trying to burst damage, heal or use control/buff/debuff spells. I think the main issue is Bards lack a strong damage range cantrip.
Okay lets look at it this way, in a standard "day" there should be at most 3 encounters in a day. say you are a level 5 bard then. you have access to 4 1st level spell slots 3 2nd level spell slots and 2 3rd level spell slots. Say you use upwards of 2-3 spells per combat encounter you still have 1 or 2 spells left at the end of the day. your main job as a bard is to be the support or utility caster which is why bane/fearie fire and such are very very good spells for a bard to pick. the forced disadvantage from viscous mockery is worth way way more then a d8 dmg dice.
If you read all the responses, you would know this ground was already covered. The OP doesn't want to play this way, lol.
Well if all he wants is a good dmg cantrip for him to use he can just take 1 or 2 level in any of the other caster classes for their cantrips. since cantrips scale with your general level anyway
Sorcerer is great for this, since they get 4 cantrips and a subclass feature at level 1.
Warlocks are better for 2 level dips for invocations.