The inclusion of guns in a game is heavily DM-dependent; AL disallows using the materials from the DMG for character customizations.
I can see the argument in favor of the gun kensei, though, and I believe that the idea is awesome. It's not without flaws, though, as bullets are very expensive. I'd recommend adding in a splash of 2 artificer levels to pick up the Repeating Shot infusion for unlimited ammo and ignoring the gun's loading property, no Gunner feat needed.
both of these are great. Im going to keep this in mind.
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Pie Jesu Domine! *smack* Dona Eis Requiem! *smack*
Take a variant human, give him the sharpshooter feat. make him a level 20 monk who is way of the kensei than give him a musket from DMG.
i have played this. it was horribly broken
This doesn't work RAW. Muskets and flintlock pistols use the firearms proficiency, which doesn't fall under either simple or martial weapons. This disqualifies firearms from being kensei weapons.
You'd be better served with a hand crossbow samurai fighter using crossbow expert and sharpshooter. 2 turns of 10 attacks, all but one of each attack per turn made with advantage with -5/+10, results in some ridiculous damage numbers.
The DMG lists muskets as martial weapons.
Samurai are better with Gunner, since they need their bonus action. Samurai+Sharpshooter+Elven Accuracy+Gunner+Piercer is incredible.
My mistake on the samurai, I personally haven't played the subclass yet.
I consider the longbow, heavy crossbow and musket being side grades to one another when figuring range vs damage. Longbows also get the most magic item support of the three and require the least amount of investment to make functional on anything getting Extra Attack.
Stacking up on lots of feats is nice, but keep in mind that Elven Accuracy means no variant human.
So there are a few things here. Multi-classing and feats are optional. Granted, most DMs allow it and tons of players will refuse to play in a campaign that doesn't allow them but still an important note to make since many of these builds are not possible with all DMs.
Similarly, most campaigns cap out at level 14. Still, there is one OP build that I would be tempted to ban.
This build is 2 levels of Warlock with the rest in Sorcerer. Particularly Hexblade, but any Warlock with Eldritch Blast qualifies. Hexblade Curse just makes it even better and what makes it tempting to ban. It was stated before but it cannot be overstated enough how overpowered this build can get. Coffeelock is bland and easy to work around. Like, as a DM, I'll just give the party more long rests. Now the Wizard or Cleric can match you quite often. Plus the rules lawyers argue it to death, like is it possible or is it not possible. Either way, it seems like Coffeelock is more of a nuisance than anything else. Particularly because the Sorlock has something better up its sleeve.
Essentially, at level 5, a player can spam Eldritch Blast to make GWM/Sharpshooter look paltry. Combine this with Agonizing Blast and some other applicable invocation (like Devil's Sight on a Human variant w/ Spell Sniper or Metamagic Adept feat at level 1) and your build will trivialize any combat. Why does this make GWM/Sharpshooter look paltry? The damage is pretty close to the same and even in favor of GWM/Sharpshooter, yeah? Well, there is no -5 penalty for one, no feat technically required to make it work, and practically no creature resists Eldritch Blast, but Quickened is really what makes the build shine. With Quickened, you can get 4 Eldritch Blast beams in one turn (5th level req. but you can get still 2 before that w/ Metamagic Adept). When a target has a Hexblade curse on them.. let's just not even go there. This is hands down the single most powerful build in nearly every game.
Beyond this, there are other OP builds, for low levels, but they were mostly mentioned already. Some that were missed/overlooked would be the Peace Domain Cleric. This Cleric makes Bards look like chumps. Stacking Emboldening Bond, Guidance, and/or Bless? Yes please! Especially since this build comes online at level 1. That is bonkers to me. +2d4 is crazy to be adding at level 1 (remember 2d6 has a better average than a 1d12 disregarding crits, the same probability mathematics works here too); I'm surprised this build gets overlooked so often.
Anyway, I would allow a character to be an Aarakocra or Winged Tiefling before I allowed them to abuse Eldritch Blast with Hexblade like that (flying has much easier work arounds). I mean it's not like there is a need for fixing these builds since they fit thematically and this is a role-playing game after all. I'd only truly ban/nerf their character if they impacted the other players at the table negatively but Hexblade Sorlock is very tempting to ban from any game.
So there are a few things here. Multi-classing and feats are optional. Granted, most DMs allow it and tons of players will refuse to play in a campaign that doesn't allow them but still an important note to make since many of these builds are not possible with all DMs.
Similarly, most campaigns cap out at level 14. Still, there is one OP build that I would be tempted to ban.
This build is 2 levels of Warlock with the rest in Sorcerer. Particularly Hexblade, but any Warlock with Eldritch Blast qualifies. Hexblade Curse just makes it even better and what makes it tempting to ban. It was stated before but it cannot be overstated enough how overpowered this build can get. Coffeelock is bland and easy to work around. Like, as a DM, I'll just give the party more long rests. Now the Wizard or Cleric can match you quite often. Plus the rules lawyers argue it to death, like is it possible or is it not possible. Either way, it seems like Coffeelock is more of a nuisance than anything else. Particularly because the Sorlock has something better up its sleeve.
Essentially, at level 5, a player can spam Eldritch Blast to make GWM/Sharpshooter look paltry. Combine this with Agonizing Blast and some other applicable invocation (like Devil's Sight on a Human variant w/ Spell Sniper or Metamagic Adept feat at level 1) and your build will trivialize any combat. Why does this make GWM/Sharpshooter look paltry? The damage is pretty close to the same and even in favor of GWM/Sharpshooter, yeah? Well, there is no -5 penalty for one, no feat technically required to make it work, and practically no creature resists Eldritch Blast, but Quickened is really what makes the build shine. With Quickened, you can get 4 Eldritch Blast beams in one turn (5th level req. but you can get still 2 before that w/ Metamagic Adept). When a target has a Hexblade curse on them.. let's just not even go there. This is hands down the single most powerful build in nearly every game.
Beyond this, there are other OP builds, for low levels, but they were mostly mentioned already. Some that were missed/overlooked would be the Peace Domain Cleric. This Cleric makes Bards look like chumps. Stacking Emboldening Bond, Guidance, and/or Bless? Yes please! Especially since this build comes online at level 1. That is bonkers to me. +2d4 is crazy to be adding at level 1 (remember 2d6 has a better average than a 1d12 disregarding crits, the same probability mathematics works here too); I'm surprised this build gets overlooked so often.
Anyway, I would allow a character to be an Aarakocra or Winged Tiefling before I allowed them to abuse Eldritch Blast with Hexblade like that (flying has much easier work arounds). I mean it's not like there is a need for fixing these builds since they fit thematically and this is a role-playing game after all. I'd only truly ban/nerf their character if they impacted the other players at the table negatively but Hexblade Sorlock is very tempting to ban from any game.
I don't know why you say a Warlock 2 Sorcerer 3 character is overpowered, when a Gloomstalker Ranger does comparable if not more damage. At level 5 the Sorlock does 2 Eldritch Blasts equaling 4 beams that do 1d10 + 3 (assuming 16 Charisma) each resulting in 4d10 + 12 if it all hits. The Gloomstalker can cast Hunter's Mark then fire off 3 shots with a Longbow resulting in 2d8 + 1d6 + 4 (assuming 18 Dexterity) for the first shot and then 2 more shots that deal 1d8 + 1d6 + 4 each resulting in a total of 4d8 + 3d6 + 12 damage if it all hits. Also bear in mind a Gloomstalker is invisible in normal darkness so could potentially find more opportunities to get advantage to their attacks without having to setup a Darkness spell or something similar.
Also the Sorlock can only use Quickened Spell once at level 5 before having to use a bonus action to create more sorcery points (assuming they did not take metamagic adept).
Should have made it super clear that Hexblade is the only build I’d really consider banning cause it’s nasty. Sorlock itself is still really strong at early levels when built for Eldritch Blast. It does more than the build you suggested and more than you calculated. Maybe I read it wrong but what I gathered is the Hex spell and Agonizing Blast stack so it’s 2d10+2d6+6 on turn 1 then 4d10+4d6+12 on turn 2 (16 cha). Then with Hexblade curse, your average increases again because of the crit chance being 80% for at least one of the blasts. It can take a bit to setup, but it’s insane. If hex doesn’t stack, then no, this is of comparable strength (most likely weaker) to a GWM Barbarian or something like you mentioned. But the way the rules read, it seems like it is.
It’s also for the level and my experience. That build is hard to counter cause force is not resisted. For the ranger, first off piercing is easy to resist. And secondly, you compared 16 cha to 18 dex. You could have 18 cha with this build or even 20 cha depending on how stats are done. Some advice: it hurts when objective data is purposefully skewed especially cause you applied Hunter’s Mark and not Hexblade Curse nor the Hex spell (which you are generally geared to do at least one with this build, which I thought was implied).
Lastly, lots of good single subclasses beat out most multiclasses somewhere down the line. Which is why I mentioned this build for early levels since most campaigns and WotC modules end at level 15.
Anyway, I feel like I should reiterate: regardless of anything, it is from my experience. When the rest of the table dislikes you because your Hexblade Sorlock Eldritch Blasts can solo every BBEG in less than 3 rounds (for most short campaigns), as a DM I have a problem with that and that’s what this thread was asking: what I felt was OP.
Like I just saw this with nearly every strong creature encounter with one player:
round1: Bonus action hex, EB
round2: Bonus action Hexblade curse, EB
Round3: EB & bonus action quickened EB.
Enemy dead.
Can’t even counterspell unless I closed the room off or caught them off guard cause of counterspell’s 60ft range. Maybe it was just a bad experience.
So there are a few things here. Multi-classing and feats are optional. Granted, most DMs allow it and tons of players will refuse to play in a campaign that doesn't allow them but still an important note to make since many of these builds are not possible with all DMs.
Similarly, most campaigns cap out at level 14. Still, there is one OP build that I would be tempted to ban.
This build is 2 levels of Warlock with the rest in Sorcerer. Particularly Hexblade, but any Warlock with Eldritch Blast qualifies. Hexblade Curse just makes it even better and what makes it tempting to ban. It was stated before but it cannot be overstated enough how overpowered this build can get. Coffeelock is bland and easy to work around. Like, as a DM, I'll just give the party more long rests. Now the Wizard or Cleric can match you quite often. Plus the rules lawyers argue it to death, like is it possible or is it not possible. Either way, it seems like Coffeelock is more of a nuisance than anything else. Particularly because the Sorlock has something better up its sleeve.
Essentially, at level 5, a player can spam Eldritch Blast to make GWM/Sharpshooter look paltry. Combine this with Agonizing Blast and some other applicable invocation (like Devil's Sight on a Human variant w/ Spell Sniper or Metamagic Adept feat at level 1) and your build will trivialize any combat. Why does this make GWM/Sharpshooter look paltry? The damage is pretty close to the same and even in favor of GWM/Sharpshooter, yeah? Well, there is no -5 penalty for one, no feat technically required to make it work, and practically no creature resists Eldritch Blast, but Quickened is really what makes the build shine. With Quickened, you can get 4 Eldritch Blast beams in one turn (5th level req. but you can get still 2 before that w/ Metamagic Adept). When a target has a Hexblade curse on them.. let's just not even go there. This is hands down the single most powerful build in nearly every game.
Beyond this, there are other OP builds, for low levels, but they were mostly mentioned already. Some that were missed/overlooked would be the Peace Domain Cleric. This Cleric makes Bards look like chumps. Stacking Emboldening Bond, Guidance, and/or Bless? Yes please! Especially since this build comes online at level 1. That is bonkers to me. +2d4 is crazy to be adding at level 1 (remember 2d6 has a better average than a 1d12 disregarding crits, the same probability mathematics works here too); I'm surprised this build gets overlooked so often.
Anyway, I would allow a character to be an Aarakocra or Winged Tiefling before I allowed them to abuse Eldritch Blast with Hexblade like that (flying has much easier work arounds). I mean it's not like there is a need for fixing these builds since they fit thematically and this is a role-playing game after all. I'd only truly ban/nerf their character if they impacted the other players at the table negatively but Hexblade Sorlock is very tempting to ban from any game.
I don't know why you say a Warlock 2 Sorcerer 3 character is overpowered, when a Gloomstalker Ranger does comparable if not more damage. At level 5 the Sorlock does 2 Eldritch Blasts equaling 4 beams that do 1d10 + 3 (assuming 16 Charisma) each resulting in 4d10 + 12 if it all hits. The Gloomstalker can cast Hunter's Mark then fire off 3 shots with a Longbow resulting in 2d8 + 1d6 + 4 (assuming 18 Dexterity) for the first shot and then 2 more shots that deal 1d8 + 1d6 + 4 each resulting in a total of 4d8 + 3d6 + 12 damage if it all hits. Also bear in mind a Gloomstalker is invisible in normal darkness so could potentially find more opportunities to get advantage to their attacks without having to setup a Darkness spell or something similar.
Also the Sorlock can only use Quickened Spell once at level 5 before having to use a bonus action to create more sorcery points (assuming they did not take metamagic adept).
Yeah Sorlock doesn't get really good until at least 8th level (2 warlock/5 sorcerer) just because you do not have enough SP to quicken a lot. Taking a BA to have convert more puts you behind in damage for that round and you have to do a lot to catch up.
Even Battlemaster with CBE +SS is doing more damage on average due to 2 things: Precision Die and Archery Style.
These completely offset the -5 penalty and you consistently can use a BA to attack with the handcrossbow with no need to stop and drop spell slots to quicken.
Yeah I mean, like I said, personal experience. No one has brought those other builds to my attention but if they started doing damage like that, as a DM I'd probably assume they are doing something wrong. Guess this is why I avoid forums lol. Always wrong compared to someone else's logic. Like they can't both be overpowered and only yours can, but whatever. This was my table experience. Glad I don't deal with many min/maxer's who ruin the game for other players at my table I guess.
Yeah I mean, like I said, personal experience. No one has brought those other builds to my attention but if they started doing damage like that, as a DM I'd probably assume they are doing something wrong. Guess this is why I avoid forums lol. Always wrong compared to someone else's logic. Like they can't both be overpowered and only yours can, but whatever. This was my table experience. Glad I don't deal with many min/maxer's who ruin the game for other players at my table I guess.
Not wrong but when you say "spam Eldritch Blast to make GWM/Sharpshooter look paltry" I like to add my 2 cents.
Sorlock gets crazy good later on when you have so many SP and are shooting 3 beams per casting and have something like Hex burning too... It's just later on.
Should have made it super clear that Hexblade is the only build I’d really consider banning cause it’s nasty. Sorlock itself is still really strong at early levels when built for Eldritch Blast. It does more than the build you suggested and more than you calculated. Maybe I read it wrong but what I gathered is the Hex spell and Agonizing Blast stack so it’s 2d10+2d6+6 on turn 1 then 4d10+4d6+12 on turn 2 (16 cha). Then with Hexblade curse, your average increases again because of the crit chance being 80% for at least one of the blasts. It can take a bit to setup, but it’s insane. If hex doesn’t stack, then no, this is of comparable strength (most likely weaker) to a GWM Barbarian or something like you mentioned. But the way the rules read, it seems like it is.
It’s also for the level and my experience. That build is hard to counter cause force is not resisted. For the ranger, first off piercing is easy to resist. And secondly, you compared 16 cha to 18 dex. You could have 18 cha with this build or even 20 cha depending on how stats are done. Some advice: it hurts when objective data is purposefully skewed especially cause you applied Hunter’s Mark and not Hexblade Curse nor the Hex spell (which you are generally geared to do at least one with this build, which I thought was implied).
Lastly, lots of good single subclasses beat out most multiclasses somewhere down the line. Which is why I mentioned this build for early levels since most campaigns and WotC modules end at level 15.
Anyway, I feel like I should reiterate: regardless of anything, it is from my experience. When the rest of the table dislikes you because your Hexblade Sorlock Eldritch Blasts can solo every BBEG in less than 3 rounds (for most short campaigns), as a DM I have a problem with that and that’s what this thread was asking: what I felt was OP.
Like I just saw this with nearly every strong creature encounter with one player:
round1: Bonus action hex, EB
round2: Bonus action Hexblade curse, EB
Round3: EB & bonus action quickened EB.
Enemy dead.
Can’t even counterspell unless I closed the room off or caught them off guard cause of counterspell’s 60ft range. Maybe it was just a bad experience.
I list 16 Charisma for Sorlock because at lvl 5 you will not have a ASI increase unless you went custom lineage and stacked everything into Charisma. Whereas the Gloomstalker will most likely get a +2 Dex or a Dex half feat to boost their Dex to 18. Heck if the Gloomstalker went custom lineage as well they could be rocking 20 Dex by level 5 so I am not skewing any data.
If going by your example then the 1st turn comparison will be even more in favor of the Gloomstalker and by the end of the 2nd turn the Gloomstalker would of had a high chance of having already finished off the enemy while the Sorlock is still setting up for the big 3rd turn finish.
Again I am not trying to say the Sorlock is not strong, just not as broken as you seem to imagine especially at the lower levels.
Yeah I mean, like I said, personal experience. No one has brought those other builds to my attention but if they started doing damage like that, as a DM I'd probably assume they are doing something wrong. Guess this is why I avoid forums lol. Always wrong compared to someone else's logic. Like they can't both be overpowered and only yours can, but whatever. This was my table experience. Glad I don't deal with many min/maxer's who ruin the game for other players at my table I guess.
Not wrong but when you say "spam Eldritch Blast to make GWM/Sharpshooter look paltry" I like to add my 2 cents.
Sorlock gets crazy good later on when you have so many SP and are shooting 3 beams per casting and have something like Hex burning too... It's just later on.
I once played in a campaign where the DM allowed the equivalent of a 41 point buy (yeah, I know, madness right there). I played a Haf-Elf Sorlock with Elven Advantage. Once we hit 11th level, and I could see that we were going to have Advantage (yup, the same DM also said ranged attacks could get Advantage in certain situations, plus Faerie Fire was used often), I would start pre-rolling my Attack dice before my turn. I would be rolling 18 d20's (6 rolls of 3 thanks to EA). If a fight lasted 3 turns, it was a bad joke, when I am rolling 18 d20's, then 6 d10's + 6 d6's.
Sorlocks are not only over-powered, they are also a selfish char to play since it takes so long to run a turn. And that is not the worst for consuming game time. You take a 9th level FiendLock tacking on say, 2 or 3 levels of Sorcerer, and you can have this scenario: Quickened 5th level Scorching Ray plus EB. Say my EA Half-Elf is casting that combo. That is 9 attack rolls, each with 3 d20's. Now, the player is rolling 27 d20's. Pretend Hex was cast the turn before. Every one of those 9 attacks, if it hits, then generates 3d6's of damage rolls. But wait, there is more. How many crits will be generated when rolling 3d20's on 9 attacks?
It is not unreasonable for a player to have to roll 54 dice, then calculate all the damage bonuses on top of that. The other players can take a bio break while the Sorlock does his calculations. And that does not even begin to deal with all the players I have seen who can't begin to do the math, and they and/or the DM have to doublecheck the work.
One idea I'm playing with right now is a v.human scout rogue 6/lore bard 14; taking Skilled, Skill Expert and Prodigy, you are proficient in every skill with Expertise in 12 (or 11 and thieves' tools), and can further boost your ability checks with your own inspiration dice. 14 bard also opens up simulacrum shenanigans.
Helper of Create a World thread/Sedge is Chaotic Neutral/ Mega Yahtzee High: 34, Low: 14/I speak English, je me parle le Francais, agus Labhraim beagan Gaeilge
It was probably wrong to use the word paltry, but it was the case at my table that the GWM + PAM + reckless attack Barbarian felt underwhelming compared to the Sorlock. I thought the GWM + PAM + reckless attack Barbarian was the strongest out of the single attackers since it's like 35 DPR, but when resisted that's cut in half. Whereas EB is generally not resisted, does not take the -5 to hit, and so it gives a higher average throughout a campaign. The prof bonus per hit matches or beats the extra rage damage per hit, extra +1 Str, etc. The EB-Hex quicken build I dealt with felt like a crit Paladin smite that could occur more often and basically on-demand.
That Half-Elf (Drow) is a dirty build. You could get Faerie Fire and Darkness as extras. With Elven Accuracy, that's 18 Cha at level 6 using standard array + even higher crit chance. Plus go Sorcerer first for the constitution saving throw.
That is a rough build. I kind of want to not DM and just try this build out in someone else's campaign.
I always liked lower level builds to be honest, since this is where most campaigns take place. At higher levels, characters get broken really fast. You can just setup spells combos like sickening radiance + force cage, animate objects + coins, lots of glyphs of warding, or some other combo to just decimate anything. And if you're talking level 17 builds, use prismatic wall + reverse gravity and oscillate a target. This combo's average matches the maximum damage of some of these builds and just 1 player can set it up.
It was probably wrong to use the word paltry, but it was the case at my table that the GWM + PAM + reckless attack Barbarian felt underwhelming compared to the Sorlock. I thought the GWM + PAM + reckless attack Barbarian was the strongest out of the single attackers since it's like 35 DPR, but when resisted that's cut in half. Whereas EB is generally not resisted, does not take the -5 to hit, and so it gives a higher average throughout a campaign. The prof bonus per hit matches or beats the extra rage damage per hit, extra +1 Str, etc. The EB-Hex quicken build I dealt with felt like a crit Paladin smite that could occur more often and basically on-demand.
That Half-Elf (Drow) is a dirty build. You could get Faerie Fire and Darkness as extras. With Elven Accuracy, that's 18 Cha at level 6 using standard array + even higher crit chance. Plus go Sorcerer first for the constitution saving throw.
That is a rough build. I kind of want to not DM and just try this build out in someone else's campaign.
I always liked lower level builds to be honest, since this is where most campaigns take place. At higher levels, characters get broken really fast. You can just setup spells combos like sickening radiance + force cage, animate objects + coins, lots of glyphs of warding, or some other combo to just decimate anything. And if you're talking level 17 builds, use prismatic wall + reverse gravity and oscillate a target. This combo's average matches the maximum damage of some of these builds and just 1 player can set it up.
The 1 big thing I feel you are not factoring in is that the Sorlock does not use a weapon. Stick a +1 Weapon onto the martial class and now their damage is magical and is less likely to be resisted on top of extra damage and hit chance. And don't even get me started on Flame Tongue Greatswords, a Raging Recklessly attacking GWM Barbarian with a Flame Tongue is a scary sight to behold.
While the Sorlock can use a wand or something similar to increase attack rolls, those items generally do not add damage.
No, I know that. There was a reason why I did not mention that. By bringing magical gear into the equation, you open a ton of arguments. The martial could have a belt of giant strength, or give the Sorlock +1 half-plate, give either of them something add to their rolls, some damage boosting potions, weapons that crit on 19, etc. You could theoretically give a +1 Half-Plate and +2 Shield to a player at level 6. By DMG p135 and XGtE p135 a character of level 5 or greater could easily have both of these.
So, it's a rabbit hole.
The point is, no character is guaranteed a +1 weapon or any item really. They will most likely get one but as a DM, I probably would give them a +x weapon that did not work at an abusive level with GWM or Sharpshooter or something like that. For example, I'd give them a +2 Mace and not powergame them until further along (reasons to give them that +x weapon: to put them on equal footing with the other players as the party levels or by backstory/campaign or if they really wanted it and it was ruining the game for them by not having it). However, there is a reason why things like fireball are nerfed by resistance and are super strong when enemies don't have it, so there is precedence for it. Maybe that makes people not want to play in a campaign I'm running, but I usually lay it out at the zero session that players can (at anytime in the campaign) pick 1 item that they are in search of and I will think up a way to put it in for them.
Personally, I think it's more fun to give the Barbarian a head band of intellect or something utility based to spice things up. I'm definitely not giving them +1 Half-Plate, a +2 Shield, a belt of giant strength, and a +2 Weapon. That is just bonkers. Plus it's generally not as fun at the table as something like a cube of force or a bag of tricks. Just a DM perspective though.
I have a Chronugy wizard with one level of Twilight cleric and the lucky feat that is pretty insane. But then again, just Twilight alone is pretty insane with longer line of sight in the dark than anything else in the game.
I have a Chronugy wizard with one level of Twilight cleric and the lucky feat that is pretty insane. But then again, just Twilight alone is pretty insane with longer line of sight in the dark than anything else in the game.
And an incredible spell list added on top of incredible abilities.
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both of these are great. Im going to keep this in mind.
not to mention the second wind you get from fighter. yikes this is exceptionally broken.
The DMG lists muskets as martial weapons.
Samurai are better with Gunner, since they need their bonus action. Samurai+Sharpshooter+Elven Accuracy+Gunner+Piercer is incredible.
My mistake on the samurai, I personally haven't played the subclass yet.
I consider the longbow, heavy crossbow and musket being side grades to one another when figuring range vs damage. Longbows also get the most magic item support of the three and require the least amount of investment to make functional on anything getting Extra Attack.
Stacking up on lots of feats is nice, but keep in mind that Elven Accuracy means no variant human.
So there are a few things here. Multi-classing and feats are optional. Granted, most DMs allow it and tons of players will refuse to play in a campaign that doesn't allow them but still an important note to make since many of these builds are not possible with all DMs.
Similarly, most campaigns cap out at level 14. Still, there is one OP build that I would be tempted to ban.
This build is 2 levels of Warlock with the rest in Sorcerer. Particularly Hexblade, but any Warlock with Eldritch Blast qualifies. Hexblade Curse just makes it even better and what makes it tempting to ban. It was stated before but it cannot be overstated enough how overpowered this build can get. Coffeelock is bland and easy to work around. Like, as a DM, I'll just give the party more long rests. Now the Wizard or Cleric can match you quite often. Plus the rules lawyers argue it to death, like is it possible or is it not possible. Either way, it seems like Coffeelock is more of a nuisance than anything else. Particularly because the Sorlock has something better up its sleeve.
Essentially, at level 5, a player can spam Eldritch Blast to make GWM/Sharpshooter look paltry. Combine this with Agonizing Blast and some other applicable invocation (like Devil's Sight on a Human variant w/ Spell Sniper or Metamagic Adept feat at level 1) and your build will trivialize any combat. Why does this make GWM/Sharpshooter look paltry? The damage is pretty close to the same and even in favor of GWM/Sharpshooter, yeah? Well, there is no -5 penalty for one, no feat technically required to make it work, and practically no creature resists Eldritch Blast, but Quickened is really what makes the build shine. With Quickened, you can get 4 Eldritch Blast beams in one turn (5th level req. but you can get still 2 before that w/ Metamagic Adept). When a target has a Hexblade curse on them.. let's just not even go there. This is hands down the single most powerful build in nearly every game.
Beyond this, there are other OP builds, for low levels, but they were mostly mentioned already. Some that were missed/overlooked would be the Peace Domain Cleric. This Cleric makes Bards look like chumps. Stacking Emboldening Bond, Guidance, and/or Bless? Yes please! Especially since this build comes online at level 1. That is bonkers to me. +2d4 is crazy to be adding at level 1 (remember 2d6 has a better average than a 1d12 disregarding crits, the same probability mathematics works here too); I'm surprised this build gets overlooked so often.
Anyway, I would allow a character to be an Aarakocra or Winged Tiefling before I allowed them to abuse Eldritch Blast with Hexblade like that (flying has much easier work arounds). I mean it's not like there is a need for fixing these builds since they fit thematically and this is a role-playing game after all. I'd only truly ban/nerf their character if they impacted the other players at the table negatively but Hexblade Sorlock is very tempting to ban from any game.
I don't know why you say a Warlock 2 Sorcerer 3 character is overpowered, when a Gloomstalker Ranger does comparable if not more damage. At level 5 the Sorlock does 2 Eldritch Blasts equaling 4 beams that do 1d10 + 3 (assuming 16 Charisma) each resulting in 4d10 + 12 if it all hits. The Gloomstalker can cast Hunter's Mark then fire off 3 shots with a Longbow resulting in 2d8 + 1d6 + 4 (assuming 18 Dexterity) for the first shot and then 2 more shots that deal 1d8 + 1d6 + 4 each resulting in a total of 4d8 + 3d6 + 12 damage if it all hits. Also bear in mind a Gloomstalker is invisible in normal darkness so could potentially find more opportunities to get advantage to their attacks without having to setup a Darkness spell or something similar.
Also the Sorlock can only use Quickened Spell once at level 5 before having to use a bonus action to create more sorcery points (assuming they did not take metamagic adept).
Should have made it super clear that Hexblade is the only build I’d really consider banning cause it’s nasty. Sorlock itself is still really strong at early levels when built for Eldritch Blast. It does more than the build you suggested and more than you calculated. Maybe I read it wrong but what I gathered is the Hex spell and Agonizing Blast stack so it’s 2d10+2d6+6 on turn 1 then 4d10+4d6+12 on turn 2 (16 cha). Then with Hexblade curse, your average increases again because of the crit chance being 80% for at least one of the blasts. It can take a bit to setup, but it’s insane. If hex doesn’t stack, then no, this is of comparable strength (most likely weaker) to a GWM Barbarian or something like you mentioned. But the way the rules read, it seems like it is.
It’s also for the level and my experience. That build is hard to counter cause force is not resisted. For the ranger, first off piercing is easy to resist. And secondly, you compared 16 cha to 18 dex. You could have 18 cha with this build or even 20 cha depending on how stats are done. Some advice: it hurts when objective data is purposefully skewed especially cause you applied Hunter’s Mark and not Hexblade Curse nor the Hex spell (which you are generally geared to do at least one with this build, which I thought was implied).
Lastly, lots of good single subclasses beat out most multiclasses somewhere down the line. Which is why I mentioned this build for early levels since most campaigns and WotC modules end at level 15.
Anyway, I feel like I should reiterate: regardless of anything, it is from my experience. When the rest of the table dislikes you because your Hexblade Sorlock Eldritch Blasts can solo every BBEG in less than 3 rounds (for most short campaigns), as a DM I have a problem with that and that’s what this thread was asking: what I felt was OP.
Like I just saw this with nearly every strong creature encounter with one player:
round1: Bonus action hex, EB
round2: Bonus action Hexblade curse, EB
Round3: EB & bonus action quickened EB.
Enemy dead.
Can’t even counterspell unless I closed the room off or caught them off guard cause of counterspell’s 60ft range. Maybe it was just a bad experience.
Yeah Sorlock doesn't get really good until at least 8th level (2 warlock/5 sorcerer) just because you do not have enough SP to quicken a lot. Taking a BA to have convert more puts you behind in damage for that round and you have to do a lot to catch up.
Even Battlemaster with CBE +SS is doing more damage on average due to 2 things: Precision Die and Archery Style.
These completely offset the -5 penalty and you consistently can use a BA to attack with the handcrossbow with no need to stop and drop spell slots to quicken.
Yeah I mean, like I said, personal experience. No one has brought those other builds to my attention but if they started doing damage like that, as a DM I'd probably assume they are doing something wrong. Guess this is why I avoid forums lol. Always wrong compared to someone else's logic. Like they can't both be overpowered and only yours can, but whatever. This was my table experience. Glad I don't deal with many min/maxer's who ruin the game for other players at my table I guess.
Not wrong but when you say "spam Eldritch Blast to make GWM/Sharpshooter look paltry" I like to add my 2 cents.
Sorlock gets crazy good later on when you have so many SP and are shooting 3 beams per casting and have something like Hex burning too... It's just later on.
I list 16 Charisma for Sorlock because at lvl 5 you will not have a ASI increase unless you went custom lineage and stacked everything into Charisma. Whereas the Gloomstalker will most likely get a +2 Dex or a Dex half feat to boost their Dex to 18. Heck if the Gloomstalker went custom lineage as well they could be rocking 20 Dex by level 5 so I am not skewing any data.
If going by your example then the 1st turn comparison will be even more in favor of the Gloomstalker and by the end of the 2nd turn the Gloomstalker would of had a high chance of having already finished off the enemy while the Sorlock is still setting up for the big 3rd turn finish.
Again I am not trying to say the Sorlock is not strong, just not as broken as you seem to imagine especially at the lower levels.
I once played in a campaign where the DM allowed the equivalent of a 41 point buy (yeah, I know, madness right there). I played a Haf-Elf Sorlock with Elven Advantage. Once we hit 11th level, and I could see that we were going to have Advantage (yup, the same DM also said ranged attacks could get Advantage in certain situations, plus Faerie Fire was used often), I would start pre-rolling my Attack dice before my turn. I would be rolling 18 d20's (6 rolls of 3 thanks to EA). If a fight lasted 3 turns, it was a bad joke, when I am rolling 18 d20's, then 6 d10's + 6 d6's.
Sorlocks are not only over-powered, they are also a selfish char to play since it takes so long to run a turn. And that is not the worst for consuming game time. You take a 9th level FiendLock tacking on say, 2 or 3 levels of Sorcerer, and you can have this scenario: Quickened 5th level Scorching Ray plus EB. Say my EA Half-Elf is casting that combo. That is 9 attack rolls, each with 3 d20's. Now, the player is rolling 27 d20's. Pretend Hex was cast the turn before. Every one of those 9 attacks, if it hits, then generates 3d6's of damage rolls. But wait, there is more. How many crits will be generated when rolling 3d20's on 9 attacks?
It is not unreasonable for a player to have to roll 54 dice, then calculate all the damage bonuses on top of that. The other players can take a bio break while the Sorlock does his calculations. And that does not even begin to deal with all the players I have seen who can't begin to do the math, and they and/or the DM have to doublecheck the work.
One idea I'm playing with right now is a v.human scout rogue 6/lore bard 14; taking Skilled, Skill Expert and Prodigy, you are proficient in every skill with Expertise in 12 (or 11 and thieves' tools), and can further boost your ability checks with your own inspiration dice. 14 bard also opens up simulacrum shenanigans.
Optionally, scout 3-4/lore 16-17 trades 2 double-profs for 8th-9th level spells (Glibness + counterspell, anyone?). Scout 11-12/lore 8-9 instead goes for Reliable Talent.
(Swashbuckler offers more CHA synergy, but scout comes with Nature and Survival auto-expertised.)
https://www.dndbeyond.com/profile/Bluepanther512/characters/51534602
276 max non-crit damage, 162 average, 552 maximum possible damage
Helper of Create a World thread/Sedge is Chaotic Neutral/ Mega Yahtzee High: 34, Low: 14/I speak English, je me parle le Francais, agus Labhraim beagan Gaeilge
Dream of Days Lore Bard 9/Wizard 4 Baulder's Gate: Descent to Avernus (In Person/Over Zoom)
Saleadon Morgul Battle Smith Artificer 11 Tyranny of Dragons (In Person/Over Zoom)
Hurtharn Serpti Ghostslayer Blood Hunter 7 Spelljammer (Over Zoom)
Ex Sig
It was probably wrong to use the word paltry, but it was the case at my table that the GWM + PAM + reckless attack Barbarian felt underwhelming compared to the Sorlock. I thought the GWM + PAM + reckless attack Barbarian was the strongest out of the single attackers since it's like 35 DPR, but when resisted that's cut in half. Whereas EB is generally not resisted, does not take the -5 to hit, and so it gives a higher average throughout a campaign. The prof bonus per hit matches or beats the extra rage damage per hit, extra +1 Str, etc. The EB-Hex quicken build I dealt with felt like a crit Paladin smite that could occur more often and basically on-demand.
That Half-Elf (Drow) is a dirty build. You could get Faerie Fire and Darkness as extras. With Elven Accuracy, that's 18 Cha at level 6 using standard array + even higher crit chance. Plus go Sorcerer first for the constitution saving throw.
That is a rough build. I kind of want to not DM and just try this build out in someone else's campaign.
I always liked lower level builds to be honest, since this is where most campaigns take place. At higher levels, characters get broken really fast. You can just setup spells combos like sickening radiance + force cage, animate objects + coins, lots of glyphs of warding, or some other combo to just decimate anything. And if you're talking level 17 builds, use prismatic wall + reverse gravity and oscillate a target. This combo's average matches the maximum damage of some of these builds and just 1 player can set it up.
The 1 big thing I feel you are not factoring in is that the Sorlock does not use a weapon. Stick a +1 Weapon onto the martial class and now their damage is magical and is less likely to be resisted on top of extra damage and hit chance. And don't even get me started on Flame Tongue Greatswords, a Raging Recklessly attacking GWM Barbarian with a Flame Tongue is a scary sight to behold.
While the Sorlock can use a wand or something similar to increase attack rolls, those items generally do not add damage.
No, I know that. There was a reason why I did not mention that. By bringing magical gear into the equation, you open a ton of arguments. The martial could have a belt of giant strength, or give the Sorlock +1 half-plate, give either of them something add to their rolls, some damage boosting potions, weapons that crit on 19, etc. You could theoretically give a +1 Half-Plate and +2 Shield to a player at level 6. By DMG p135 and XGtE p135 a character of level 5 or greater could easily have both of these.
So, it's a rabbit hole.
The point is, no character is guaranteed a +1 weapon or any item really. They will most likely get one but as a DM, I probably would give them a +x weapon that did not work at an abusive level with GWM or Sharpshooter or something like that. For example, I'd give them a +2 Mace and not powergame them until further along (reasons to give them that +x weapon: to put them on equal footing with the other players as the party levels or by backstory/campaign or if they really wanted it and it was ruining the game for them by not having it). However, there is a reason why things like fireball are nerfed by resistance and are super strong when enemies don't have it, so there is precedence for it. Maybe that makes people not want to play in a campaign I'm running, but I usually lay it out at the zero session that players can (at anytime in the campaign) pick 1 item that they are in search of and I will think up a way to put it in for them.
Personally, I think it's more fun to give the Barbarian a head band of intellect or something utility based to spice things up. I'm definitely not giving them +1 Half-Plate, a +2 Shield, a belt of giant strength, and a +2 Weapon. That is just bonkers. Plus it's generally not as fun at the table as something like a cube of force or a bag of tricks. Just a DM perspective though.
20 monk way of open hand bc quivering palm is so powerful.
I have a Chronugy wizard with one level of Twilight cleric and the lucky feat that is pretty insane. But then again, just Twilight alone is pretty insane with longer line of sight in the dark than anything else in the game.
And an incredible spell list added on top of incredible abilities.