Hmmm, those are good points. However, it does mean that a level 20 Barbarian can't actually have 24 Strength and Constitution, unless they have a natural 18 Strength and a +2 Racial Bonus. Otherwise, when their Barbarian Capstone pushes them up to 24, their earlier +Strength ASI turn off.
The barbarian capstone also includes specific language to allow this: “Your maximum for those scores is now 24.”
Adventurers can have scores as high as 20, and monsters and divine beings can have scores as high as 30.
ASI Language:
When you reach 4th level, and again at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.
Barbarian Primal Champion language:
At 20th level, you embody the power of the wilds. Your Strength and Constitution scores increase by 4. Your maximum for those scores is now 24.
I dunno... I see how the Barbarian 20 provides a specific exception to Chapter 7 (maximum score for adventurers is normally 20, is now 24). I don't see that it provides an exception to the ASI's own rule (ASI cannot be used to increase a score beyond 20).
Just a little RAW vs RAI ambiguity, I get that you're right, and good job catching my error with the Wild Shape/Magic Jar shenanigans.
I think that one’s easy enough with order of operations. The ASIs happen first, so they’re only increasing the scores up to 20; then the capstone is applied. The wild shape issue is that the beast form changes the base scores, and then we’re applying the ASIs on top of that. (Applying the ASIs first doesn’t help because the stats are replaced anyway.)
I'm not sure on the strongest, I think the campaign setting makes such a super massive difference that it sways everything so hard. If the campaign is mostly focused on social, well a great charisma focused bard, or a sneaky little rogue may be god-like. If your world is going to be combat focused, a fighter dipping into some other classes may be able to hit close to 100dmg a turn on good roles.
All I know that I'm pretty sure of... is that Rangers who can't multi class for whatever reason, are not so good imo. They're... the worst. Imo.
Polymorph replaces your statistics. Wild Shape replaces your statistics, but then lets you retain the benefit of certain statistics (including class features, which in turn includes ASI). Thus, Wild Shape > Polymorph for the Strength game.
Completely wrong. The rules for Wild Shape specifically states that you replace your game statistics with those of the beast, except Int, Wis, and Charisma.
And no, Barbarians can have 24 Strength and Con without rolling. It's a specific rule that beats the more general ASI rule.
Polymorph replaces your statistics. Wild Shape replaces your statistics, but then lets you retain the benefit of certain statistics (including class features, which in turn includes ASI). Thus, Wild Shape > Polymorph for the Strength game.
Completely wrong. The rules for Wild Shape specifically states that you replace your game statistics with those of the beast, except Int, Wis, and Charisma.
And no, Barbarians can have 24 Strength and Con without rolling. It's a specific rule that beats the more general ASI rule.
no wild shape does let you retain racial and class features, as one of the bullet points says: "you retain the benefit of any features from your class, race or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However you cannot use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense". This is what lets dragonborn druids still use their breath weapon and what allows druid/barbarians to still use rage. If this still applies to abillity score increases, including ones from your race and class is still up to debate, as a DM i would be tempted to say no to that. If you really wanna be the strongest however you should be using the shapechange spell, all the benefits of wild shape but you can turn into any creature whose challenge rating is equal to your level or lower, thus you could easily turn into an roc for 28 str or some other creature with higher strength, for concentration, up to 1 hour, once per day, with the boon of high magic letting you do that twice per day instead
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Polymorph replaces your statistics. Wild Shape replaces your statistics, but then lets you retain the benefit of certain statistics (including class features, which in turn includes ASI). Thus, Wild Shape > Polymorph for the Strength game.
Completely wrong. The rules for Wild Shape specifically states that you replace your game statistics with those of the beast, except Int, Wis, and Charisma.
And no, Barbarians can have 24 Strength and Con without rolling. It's a specific rule that beats the more general ASI rule.
no wild shape does let you retain racial and class features, as one of the bullet points says: "you retain the benefit of any features from your class, race or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However you cannot use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense". This is what lets dragonborn druids still use their breath weapon and what allows druid/barbarians to still use rage. If this still applies to abillity score increases, including ones from your race and class is still up to debate, as a DM i would be tempted to say no to that. If you really wanna be the strongest however you should be using the shapechange spell, all the benefits of wild shape but you can turn into any creature whose challenge rating is equal to your level or lower, thus you could easily turn into an roc for 28 str or some other creature with higher strength, for concentration, up to 1 hour, once per day, with the boon of high magic letting you do that twice per day instead
Are you sure you're replying to the right person? I literally paraphrased the text in the Player's Handbook. Page 67, the very first sentence. None of the examples you give regarding rage and breath weapons are relevant. I am talking just about ASIs and unless that's an ASI used to raise Int, Wis or Cha, they don't transfer over.
Polymorph replaces your statistics. Wild Shape replaces your statistics, but then lets you retain the benefit of certain statistics (including class features, which in turn includes ASI). Thus, Wild Shape > Polymorph for the Strength game.
Completely wrong. The rules for Wild Shape specifically states that you replace your game statistics with those of the beast, except Int, Wis, and Charisma.
And no, Barbarians can have 24 Strength and Con without rolling. It's a specific rule that beats the more general ASI rule.
no wild shape does let you retain racial and class features, as one of the bullet points says: "you retain the benefit of any features from your class, race or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However you cannot use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense". This is what lets dragonborn druids still use their breath weapon and what allows druid/barbarians to still use rage. If this still applies to abillity score increases, including ones from your race and class is still up to debate, as a DM i would be tempted to say no to that. If you really wanna be the strongest however you should be using the shapechange spell, all the benefits of wild shape but you can turn into any creature whose challenge rating is equal to your level or lower, thus you could easily turn into an roc for 28 str or some other creature with higher strength, for concentration, up to 1 hour, once per day, with the boon of high magic letting you do that twice per day instead
Are you sure you're replying to the right person? I literally paraphrased the text in the Player's Handbook. Page 67, the very first sentence. None of the examples you give regarding rage and breath weapons are relevant. I am talking just about ASIs and unless that's an ASI used to raise Int, Wis or Cha, they don't transfer over.
it seemed like you denied that you could retain any class features as all, thus why i made the response. You could still make the argument that your abillity score increase would be applied to your new adjusted statistics, i do not personally think so however
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Polymorph replaces your statistics. Wild Shape replaces your statistics, but then lets you retain the benefit of certain statistics (including class features, which in turn includes ASI). Thus, Wild Shape > Polymorph for the Strength game.
Completely wrong. The rules for Wild Shape specifically states that you replace your game statistics with those of the beast, except Int, Wis, and Charisma.
And no, Barbarians can have 24 Strength and Con without rolling. It's a specific rule that beats the more general ASI rule.
no wild shape does let you retain racial and class features, as one of the bullet points says: "you retain the benefit of any features from your class, race or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However you cannot use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense". This is what lets dragonborn druids still use their breath weapon and what allows druid/barbarians to still use rage. If this still applies to abillity score increases, including ones from your race and class is still up to debate, as a DM i would be tempted to say no to that. If you really wanna be the strongest however you should be using the shapechange spell, all the benefits of wild shape but you can turn into any creature whose challenge rating is equal to your level or lower, thus you could easily turn into an roc for 28 str or some other creature with higher strength, for concentration, up to 1 hour, once per day, with the boon of high magic letting you do that twice per day instead
Are you sure you're replying to the right person? I literally paraphrased the text in the Player's Handbook. Page 67, the very first sentence. None of the examples you give regarding rage and breath weapons are relevant. I am talking just about ASIs and unless that's an ASI used to raise Int, Wis or Cha, they don't transfer over.
Yes they do. They’re class features. Wild Shape explicitly says you still benefit from race/class/whatever features if your new form is physically capable of doing so. Barring some bizarre exception I’m not aware of, every beast is physically capable of becoming stronger. What they’re usually not physically capable of is breathing fire or whatever, so a dragonborn’s breath weapon is not useable in wild shape.
Polymorph replaces your statistics. Wild Shape replaces your statistics, but then lets you retain the benefit of certain statistics (including class features, which in turn includes ASI). Thus, Wild Shape > Polymorph for the Strength game.
Completely wrong. The rules for Wild Shape specifically states that you replace your game statistics with those of the beast, except Int, Wis, and Charisma.
And no, Barbarians can have 24 Strength and Con without rolling. It's a specific rule that beats the more general ASI rule.
no wild shape does let you retain racial and class features, as one of the bullet points says: "you retain the benefit of any features from your class, race or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However you cannot use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense". This is what lets dragonborn druids still use their breath weapon and what allows druid/barbarians to still use rage. If this still applies to abillity score increases, including ones from your race and class is still up to debate, as a DM i would be tempted to say no to that. If you really wanna be the strongest however you should be using the shapechange spell, all the benefits of wild shape but you can turn into any creature whose challenge rating is equal to your level or lower, thus you could easily turn into an roc for 28 str or some other creature with higher strength, for concentration, up to 1 hour, once per day, with the boon of high magic letting you do that twice per day instead
Are you sure you're replying to the right person? I literally paraphrased the text in the Player's Handbook. Page 67, the very first sentence. None of the examples you give regarding rage and breath weapons are relevant. I am talking just about ASIs and unless that's an ASI used to raise Int, Wis or Cha, they don't transfer over.
Yes they do. They’re class features. Wild Shape explicitly says you still benefit from race/class/whatever features if your new form is physically capable of doing so. Barring some bizarre exception I’m not aware of, every beast is physically capable of becoming stronger. What they’re usually not physically capable of is breathing fire or whatever, so a dragonborn’s breath weapon is not useable in wild shape.
You are wrong in every concievable way. ASIs increases the druid's Abilities, let's use Strength and Wisdom for example. With the help of two ASIs the druid's strength is increased from 8 to 10 and Wisdom from 16 to 18. The druid then uses wildshape to turn into a Brown Bear. The druid's Wisdom remains at 18 due to the exception on page 67 but by the same rules the Strength of 10 is replaced by the Strength of the bear.
An ASI is not something that happens over and over, it's merely a change in stats. And the changed stat is replaced by the creatures stat. Just like a Dwarf druids don't get +2 to con to every creature they change into. It really is that simple.
Polymorph replaces your statistics. Wild Shape replaces your statistics, but then lets you retain the benefit of certain statistics (including class features, which in turn includes ASI). Thus, Wild Shape > Polymorph for the Strength game.
Completely wrong. The rules for Wild Shape specifically states that you replace your game statistics with those of the beast, except Int, Wis, and Charisma.
And no, Barbarians can have 24 Strength and Con without rolling. It's a specific rule that beats the more general ASI rule.
no wild shape does let you retain racial and class features, as one of the bullet points says: "you retain the benefit of any features from your class, race or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However you cannot use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense". This is what lets dragonborn druids still use their breath weapon and what allows druid/barbarians to still use rage. If this still applies to abillity score increases, including ones from your race and class is still up to debate, as a DM i would be tempted to say no to that. If you really wanna be the strongest however you should be using the shapechange spell, all the benefits of wild shape but you can turn into any creature whose challenge rating is equal to your level or lower, thus you could easily turn into an roc for 28 str or some other creature with higher strength, for concentration, up to 1 hour, once per day, with the boon of high magic letting you do that twice per day instead
Are you sure you're replying to the right person? I literally paraphrased the text in the Player's Handbook. Page 67, the very first sentence. None of the examples you give regarding rage and breath weapons are relevant. I am talking just about ASIs and unless that's an ASI used to raise Int, Wis or Cha, they don't transfer over.
Yes they do. They’re class features. Wild Shape explicitly says you still benefit from race/class/whatever features if your new form is physically capable of doing so. Barring some bizarre exception I’m not aware of, every beast is physically capable of becoming stronger. What they’re usually not physically capable of is breathing fire or whatever, so a dragonborn’s breath weapon is not useable in wild shape.
You are wrong in every concievable way. ASIs increases the druid's Abilities, let's use Strength and Wisdom for example. With the help of two ASIs the druid's strength is increased from 8 to 10 and Wisdom from 16 to 18. The druid then uses wildshape to turn into a Brown Bear. The druid's Wisdom remains at 18 due to the exception on page 67 but by the same rules the Strength of 10 is replaced by the Strength of the bear.
An ASI is not something that happens over and over, it's merely a change in stats. And the changed stat is replaced by the creatures stat. Just like a Dwarf druids don't get +2 to con to every creature they change into. It really is that simple.
I'm trying to figure out what your position here is. Are you saying ASIs are not class features?
Polymorph replaces your statistics. Wild Shape replaces your statistics, but then lets you retain the benefit of certain statistics (including class features, which in turn includes ASI). Thus, Wild Shape > Polymorph for the Strength game.
Completely wrong. The rules for Wild Shape specifically states that you replace your game statistics with those of the beast, except Int, Wis, and Charisma.
And no, Barbarians can have 24 Strength and Con without rolling. It's a specific rule that beats the more general ASI rule.
no wild shape does let you retain racial and class features, as one of the bullet points says: "you retain the benefit of any features from your class, race or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However you cannot use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense". This is what lets dragonborn druids still use their breath weapon and what allows druid/barbarians to still use rage. If this still applies to abillity score increases, including ones from your race and class is still up to debate, as a DM i would be tempted to say no to that. If you really wanna be the strongest however you should be using the shapechange spell, all the benefits of wild shape but you can turn into any creature whose challenge rating is equal to your level or lower, thus you could easily turn into an roc for 28 str or some other creature with higher strength, for concentration, up to 1 hour, once per day, with the boon of high magic letting you do that twice per day instead
Are you sure you're replying to the right person? I literally paraphrased the text in the Player's Handbook. Page 67, the very first sentence. None of the examples you give regarding rage and breath weapons are relevant. I am talking just about ASIs and unless that's an ASI used to raise Int, Wis or Cha, they don't transfer over.
Yes they do. They’re class features. Wild Shape explicitly says you still benefit from race/class/whatever features if your new form is physically capable of doing so. Barring some bizarre exception I’m not aware of, every beast is physically capable of becoming stronger. What they’re usually not physically capable of is breathing fire or whatever, so a dragonborn’s breath weapon is not useable in wild shape.
You are wrong in every concievable way. ASIs increases the druid's Abilities, let's use Strength and Wisdom for example. With the help of two ASIs the druid's strength is increased from 8 to 10 and Wisdom from 16 to 18. The druid then uses wildshape to turn into a Brown Bear. The druid's Wisdom remains at 18 due to the exception on page 67 but by the same rules the Strength of 10 is replaced by the Strength of the bear.
An ASI is not something that happens over and over, it's merely a change in stats. And the changed stat is replaced by the creatures stat. Just like a Dwarf druids don't get +2 to con to every creature they change into. It really is that simple.
I'm trying to figure out what your position here is. Are you saying ASIs are not class features?
I'm saying that according to the rules it doesn't matter if your non-wildshape form has had an increase in the physical stats (be it from racial bonuses or ASIs) since those stats are replaced when you wildshape.
Seriously, are people actually trying to pull this off?
Okay, you’re incorrect. It’s true that your stats are replaced. What’s also true is this:
”You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so.”
So we have two questions to ask:
1) Are ASIs features from your class?
2) Is the new form physically capable of using them?
If the answer to both of those questions is yes, then you retain their benefit. If your argument doesn’t lie with a “no” answer to one of those questions then your argument is irrelevant and invalid. If you do think the answer to one of them is no, I really would like to hear it. I’m sure there are angles I haven’t considered.
Evidence points towards them being a class feature.
1- If they were not class features they would be in general rules like how much exp to level. Everybody is the same for exp so not a class feature.
2 - Some classes get ASI specifically at different levels. So not only are they in class description, they are given at different levels. Class specific, not every class gets the same way.
3 - Under every class leveling table under the heading "Features" is ASI
Okay, you’re incorrect. It’s true that your stats are replaced. What’s also true is this:
”You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so.”
So we have two questions to ask:
1) Are ASIs features from your class?
2) Is the new form physically capable of using them?
If the answer to both of those questions is yes, then you retain their benefit. If your argument doesn’t lie with a “no” answer to one of those questions then your argument is irrelevant and invalid. If you do think the answer to one of them is no, I really would like to hear it. I’m sure there are angles I haven’t considered.
Now, I am not incorrect. You seem to think that a bear that was previously a dwarf can still use the dwarf's own strength and constitution, despite the fact that the rules explicitly tell us that the dwarf's own strength and constitution has been replaced with those of the bear. This has already been explained, numerous times.
The barbarian capstone also includes specific language to allow this: “Your maximum for those scores is now 24.”
Chapter 7 Ability Scores language:
ASI Language:
Barbarian Primal Champion language:
I dunno... I see how the Barbarian 20 provides a specific exception to Chapter 7 (maximum score for adventurers is normally 20, is now 24). I don't see that it provides an exception to the ASI's own rule (ASI cannot be used to increase a score beyond 20).
Just a little RAW vs RAI ambiguity, I get that you're right, and good job catching my error with the Wild Shape/Magic Jar shenanigans.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I think that one’s easy enough with order of operations. The ASIs happen first, so they’re only increasing the scores up to 20; then the capstone is applied. The wild shape issue is that the beast form changes the base scores, and then we’re applying the ASIs on top of that. (Applying the ASIs first doesn’t help because the stats are replaced anyway.)
I'm not sure on the strongest, I think the campaign setting makes such a super massive difference that it sways everything so hard. If the campaign is mostly focused on social, well a great charisma focused bard, or a sneaky little rogue may be god-like. If your world is going to be combat focused, a fighter dipping into some other classes may be able to hit close to 100dmg a turn on good roles.
All I know that I'm pretty sure of... is that Rangers who can't multi class for whatever reason, are not so good imo. They're... the worst. Imo.
Who said that?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
That I think they're the worst class? I do. It's my own opinion.
That they can't multi class? Some DM's have said in the past no multi-classing at their table. Others say you can. All preference of their own worlds.
Completely wrong. The rules for Wild Shape specifically states that you replace your game statistics with those of the beast, except Int, Wis, and Charisma.
And no, Barbarians can have 24 Strength and Con without rolling. It's a specific rule that beats the more general ASI rule.
no wild shape does let you retain racial and class features, as one of the bullet points says: "you retain the benefit of any features from your class, race or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However you cannot use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense". This is what lets dragonborn druids still use their breath weapon and what allows druid/barbarians to still use rage. If this still applies to abillity score increases, including ones from your race and class is still up to debate, as a DM i would be tempted to say no to that. If you really wanna be the strongest however you should be using the shapechange spell, all the benefits of wild shape but you can turn into any creature whose challenge rating is equal to your level or lower, thus you could easily turn into an roc for 28 str or some other creature with higher strength, for concentration, up to 1 hour, once per day, with the boon of high magic letting you do that twice per day instead
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Are you sure you're replying to the right person? I literally paraphrased the text in the Player's Handbook. Page 67, the very first sentence. None of the examples you give regarding rage and breath weapons are relevant. I am talking just about ASIs and unless that's an ASI used to raise Int, Wis or Cha, they don't transfer over.
it seemed like you denied that you could retain any class features as all, thus why i made the response. You could still make the argument that your abillity score increase would be applied to your new adjusted statistics, i do not personally think so however
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Yes they do. They’re class features. Wild Shape explicitly says you still benefit from race/class/whatever features if your new form is physically capable of doing so. Barring some bizarre exception I’m not aware of, every beast is physically capable of becoming stronger. What they’re usually not physically capable of is breathing fire or whatever, so a dragonborn’s breath weapon is not useable in wild shape.
You are wrong in every concievable way. ASIs increases the druid's Abilities, let's use Strength and Wisdom for example. With the help of two ASIs the druid's strength is increased from 8 to 10 and Wisdom from 16 to 18. The druid then uses wildshape to turn into a Brown Bear. The druid's Wisdom remains at 18 due to the exception on page 67 but by the same rules the Strength of 10 is replaced by the Strength of the bear.
An ASI is not something that happens over and over, it's merely a change in stats. And the changed stat is replaced by the creatures stat. Just like a Dwarf druids don't get +2 to con to every creature they change into. It really is that simple.
I'm trying to figure out what your position here is. Are you saying ASIs are not class features?
I'm saying that according to the rules it doesn't matter if your non-wildshape form has had an increase in the physical stats (be it from racial bonuses or ASIs) since those stats are replaced when you wildshape.
Seriously, are people actually trying to pull this off?
Okay, you’re incorrect. It’s true that your stats are replaced. What’s also true is this:
”You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so.”
So we have two questions to ask:
1) Are ASIs features from your class?
2) Is the new form physically capable of using them?
If the answer to both of those questions is yes, then you retain their benefit. If your argument doesn’t lie with a “no” answer to one of those questions then your argument is irrelevant and invalid. If you do think the answer to one of them is no, I really would like to hear it. I’m sure there are angles I haven’t considered.
Evidence points towards them being a class feature.
1- If they were not class features they would be in general rules like how much exp to level. Everybody is the same for exp so not a class feature.
2 - Some classes get ASI specifically at different levels. So not only are they in class description, they are given at different levels. Class specific, not every class gets the same way.
3 - Under every class leveling table under the heading "Features" is ASI
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Anyone remember what the topic was before people started going off on this druid rant?
That Artificers are not a real class and Fighters are the strongest.
**The artificer thing was a joke **
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Now, I am not incorrect. You seem to think that a bear that was previously a dwarf can still use the dwarf's own strength and constitution, despite the fact that the rules explicitly tell us that the dwarf's own strength and constitution has been replaced with those of the bear. This has already been explained, numerous times.
which class can achieve the highest strength score was the question, barbarian is the answer
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes