So, I have an odd Sorcerer concept. She is a half-blue dragon, half-elf who is not a good sorceress. At one point she was stronger, but being a hybrid she has basically become "allergic" to her own magic blood and has been dying. Sort of a genetic magic Lupus that she is trying to circumvent.
As a showing of this, we are doing point buy and her Strength is stuck at 5 (-3), but I get 3 bonus points to spend elsewhere.
She has a Pact in story with a Silver Dragon. This character was originally going to be a Sorlock: Draconic Blood Sorcerer, 3 Celestial Warlock Pact of the Tome.
Since our party is her, a Rune Knight Goliath, and a Paladin Goliath we are an odd composition.
My new option is this: I can keep the Draconic Sorcerer 1 and respec my Attributes to instead take Order of the Scribe Wizard at level 2 and beyond.
The 1 level of draco sorcerer is locked, but attributes are point buy flexible. I can take 3 levels of celestial tomelock for low level rituals, rescue healing, eldritch blast but be hindered in Sorcerer leveling. Or, I can go full Scribe Wizard the rest of the way and have the flexibility of Wizard in a lower magic group.
We are also low on charisma as a group - the goliaths are not talking powerhouses.
In both cases, both options lead to the same Pact story and recovery story, albeit the wizard one more mind over failing body while the sorlock route is more of a slow recovery.
I am just unsure where to take this. In ether case, Im the only ritual caster, only primary magic user, we have two melee and one off-healer paladin and no Revivify for a loooong time.
My excitement says take the shiny Scribe Wizard because I love the fluff, my storyteller says go Sorlock, and my brain sees the utility usefulness of both in different ways.
Ahhh! This is hurting me too. Maybe go one level of warlock, then the rest wizard? Focus on dex, int and cha. Con should be at least 12. That multiclass seems odd, but I think it's fine. For story: you have inate power, but because your dying you made a pact with a silver dragon. They only gave you enough power to survive, though it meant you could no longer get magic from your blood. So you had to study to regain magic, and found a place as a scribe in the service of the silver dragon.
How'd that sound?
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'The Cleverness of mushrooms always surprises me!' - Ivern Bramblefoot.
The 1 level of Warlock crossed my mind as well actually. It isnt the worst dip - the single distance heal, access to cure wounds and hex or agathys, a couple bonus utility cantrips (not worth grabbing EB really), and bonus light cantrip and a sacred flame that might not be used a lot.
It definitely still fits the flavor. Then again, a single dip into cleric might give me the offheal I need as well...
I think a Pact of the Tome Warlock with the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation is just as flexible as a Wizard. I don't think there are too many good reasons to go with Wizard instead of Pact of the Tome Warlock. If you take Celestial Warlock up to level 5, you'll get Revivify, so that's a nice perk of choosing Warlock.
I'm playing a Celestial Warlock right now, and it is a lot of fun. I do recommend the subclass.
Gabrielrockman, I am betting you haven't played a wizard have you? Warlocks are low spell slotted Gishs, that get a few specialized abilities. The Pact of the Tome by itself is a weakened version of the Feat: Magic Initiate (giving up the 1st level spell to let you pick the Cantrips from any magic type). The Book of Ancient Secrets is a slightly more powerful version of the Ritual Magic feat (you get ritual magic from any class, not just your own - but there are not that many in the game).
Even with a Pact of Tome, Book of ancient secrets you only get RITUAL spells. And few spells are ritual spells. (Only 7 from the entire game above 3rd level: 1 4th, 4 5tgh and 2 6th - and only the 6th level spells are not divination). For example, you can not learn Hypnotic Pattern, one of the best wizard spells.
A real wizard will likely crush a Warlock that took those two invocations in a battle. Those invocations are fun to play but low in power.
this is true, unless you do a very specialized celestial tome (to get Shilleighly) warlock/ draconic sorc w quarterstaff and green flame blade. you can actually get some good damage but at that point you are a one trick pony Gish. on the other hand a draconic sorcerer will absolutely wreck a wizard in combat. wizards are very much "I can cast a lot of spells" vs sorcerer "I can destroy you with the 2 spells I know"
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Gabrielrockman, I am betting you haven't played a wizard have you? Warlocks are low spell slotted Gishs, that get a few specialized abilities. The Pact of the Tome by itself is a weakened version of the Feat: Magic Initiate (giving up the 1st level spell to let you pick the Cantrips from any magic type). The Book of Ancient Secrets is a slightly more powerful version of the Ritual Magic feat (you get ritual magic from any class, not just your own - but there are not that many in the game).
Even with a Pact of Tome, Book of ancient secrets you only get RITUAL spells. And few spells are ritual spells. (Only 7 from the entire game above 3rd level: 1 4th, 4 5tgh and 2 6th - and only the 6th level spells are not divination). For example, you can not learn Hypnotic Pattern, one of the best wizard spells.
A real wizard will likely crush a Warlock that took those two invocations in a battle. They are fun to play but low in power.
I've played alongside wizards in three of the four campaigns that I've done. And unlike you, I actually know what a gish is. I've seen in a few different threads you've made a bunch of claims that make it clear you have no experience playing a caster. You don't even seem to understand how the concentration mechanic works.
Pact of the Tome is better than Magic Initiate. Three cantrips from any class is much better than two cantrips from the same class and one cast a day of a first level spell. Especially once you get to higher levels, that one cast per day of a first level spell isn't that great, but having an extra cantrip AND being able to choose the three cantrips from three different classes is great.
You named one spell that Wizards can learn and you're pretending like that's proof that they're more flexible?
A Warlock with the Pact of the Tome and and the Book of Ancient Secrets has a large number of cantrips (three of which can be from any class), access to rituals from any class, and access to invocations to give many abilities on command, such as False Life, Silent Image, Detect Magic, Speak with Animals, Disguise Self, Alter Self, Speak with Dead, Arcane Eye, Invisibility, etc. In tier 1, Fiendish Vigor makes the Warlock an extremely durable tank.
A Celestial Warlock gets Healing Light, and access to a bunch of healing and restoration type spells like Cure Wounds, Lesser Restoration, Revivify, and Greater Restoration. The Wizard doesn't have access to being a healer, but a Celestial Warlock adds that utility. If you want to talk about flexibility, the Wizard is completely unable to fill that role. On the other hand, the Wizard (especially the Abjuration Wizard) can specialize in Counterspell and Dispel Magic type effects and a Warlock doesn't have the spell slots to keep up with that.
The Warlock can throw its Eldritch Blast at multiple targets, but the Wizard's cantrips are only single target. The Warlock can turn his Eldritch Blast into the movement speed debuff of a Ray of Frost, or the pull of Thorn Whip, or into a push effect. The multiple use per turn of a 10ft push effect that isn't affected by concentration and has a 120ft range makes Warlocks exceptionally good at crowd control. You can damage a Wizard and get him to lose concentration on web or another crowd control spell, but it's a heck of a lot harder to get a Warlock to stop pushing you around with his Eldritch Blast.
The Warlock can play the party face role extremely well, especially with Disguise Self at will. This comes in handy much more often than the Wizard's specialization at being the party detective/investigator. Wizards are great at specializing in one type of magic (hence the school they choose), but for flexibility, they're still good, but they're no more flexible than a Warlock.
You'll notice that I didn't say that I thought a Warlock was much more flexible than a Wizard. I said that a Pact of the Tome Celestial Warlock with the Book of Ancient Secrets is just as flexible as a Wizard, and I stand by that assertion. I'm not saying that Wizards aren't flexible. Just that a Warlock can match them in flexibility.
Gabrielrockman, I am betting you haven't played a wizard have you? Warlocks are low spell slotted Gishs, that get a few specialized abilities. The Pact of the Tome by itself is a weakened version of the Feat: Magic Initiate (giving up the 1st level spell to let you pick the Cantrips from any magic type). The Book of Ancient Secrets is a slightly more powerful version of the Ritual Magic feat (you get ritual magic from any class, not just your own - but there are not that many in the game).
Even with a Pact of Tome, Book of ancient secrets you only get RITUAL spells. And few spells are ritual spells. (Only 7 from the entire game above 3rd level: 1 4th, 4 5tgh and 2 6th - and only the 6th level spells are not divination). For example, you can not learn Hypnotic Pattern, one of the best wizard spells.
A real wizard will likely crush a Warlock that took those two invocations in a battle. They are fun to play but low in power.
I've played alongside wizards in three of the four campaigns that I've done. And unlike you, I actually know what a gish is. I've seen in a few different threads you've made a bunch of claims that make it clear you have no experience playing a caster. You don't even seem to understand how the concentration mechanic works.
Pact of the Tome is better than Magic Initiate. Three cantrips from any class is much better than two cantrips from the same class and one cast a day of a first level spell. Especially once you get to higher levels, that one cast per day of a first level spell isn't that great, but having an extra cantrip AND being able to choose the three cantrips from three different classes is great.
You named one spell that Wizards can learn and you're pretending like that's proof that they're more flexible?
A Warlock with the Pact of the Tome and and the Book of Ancient Secrets has a large number of cantrips (three of which can be from any class), access to rituals from any class, and access to invocations to give many abilities on command, such as False Life, Silent Image, Detect Magic, Speak with Animals, Disguise Self, Alter Self, Speak with Dead, Arcane Eye, Invisibility, etc. In tier 1, Fiendish Vigor makes the Warlock an extremely durable tank.
A Celestial Warlock gets Healing Light, and access to a bunch of healing and restoration type spells like Cure Wounds, Lesser Restoration, Revivify, and Greater Restoration. The Wizard doesn't have access to being a healer, but a Celestial Warlock adds that utility. If you want to talk about flexibility, the Wizard is completely unable to fill that role. On the other hand, the Wizard (especially the Abjuration Wizard) can specialize in Counterspell and Dispel Magic type effects and a Warlock doesn't have the spell slots to keep up with that.
The Warlock can throw its Eldritch Blast at multiple targets, but the Wizard's cantrips are only single target. The Warlock can turn his Eldritch Blast into the movement speed debuff of a Ray of Frost, or the pull of Thorn Whip, or into a push effect. The multiple use per turn of a 10ft push effect that isn't affected by concentration and has a 120ft range makes Warlocks exceptionally good at crowd control. You can damage a Wizard and get him to lose concentration on web or another crowd control spell, but it's a heck of a lot harder to get a Warlock to stop pushing you around with his Eldritch Blast.
The Warlock can play the party face role extremely well, especially with Disguise Self at will. This comes in handy much more often than the Wizard's specialization at being the party detective/investigator. Wizards are great at specializing in one type of magic (hence the school they choose), but for flexibility, they're still good, but they're no more flexible than a Warlock.
You'll notice that I didn't say that I thought a Warlock was much more flexible than a Wizard. I said that a Pact of the Tome Celestial Warlock with the Book of Ancient Secrets is just as flexible as a Wizard, and I stand by that assertion. I'm not saying that Wizards aren't flexible. Just that a Warlock can match them in flexibility.
1.playing alongside a wizard is definitely not playing a wizard
2.pact of the tome is much worse than magic initiate. the feat allows you to get two cantrips and the find familiar spell, basically allowing you to get pact of the tome and pact of the chain at the same time (albeit nerfed versions)
3. dont get me wrong warlock is my favourite class but they are NOT a utility caster.most of the invocations are either combat based or are very situational. wizard gets access to sooo many spells the warlock does not, such as
fly- for obvious reasons
Web - classic area control
Color spray - No save, really helps melee allies
Phantasmal force - Basically takes out one enemy
Levitate - con save but usually ends a melee enemy
Fear - disarm and get rid of some enemies
Slow - hard to make it stick but extremely powerful and makes followup fireballs amazing
Tidal wave - dmg and prone helps melee allies a lot
When you get 4th level spells:
Banishment - absolutely brutal with ready actions
Faithful hound - absolutely brutal long term area control
Resilient sphere - save or die
Polymorph - save or die
Wall of fire - damage and you choose the side they end up on
yes warlock invocations can mimic a few of these, but you will rarely be able to cast them as well. also the argument that warlocks get spell slots back on a short rest is irrelevant as wizards do as well.
4. your argument for eldritch blast is only combat focused NOT FLEXIBLE AT ALL.
5. wizards can buy new spells and learn them(dm discretion)
6. you do make a good point about warlocks being a party face tho. and mask of many faces plus the actor feat is very potent.
all in all the warlock is good In combat but is lacking in sustained utility and is not very flexible
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Pact of the Tome also gives you access to the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation, which almost every Pact of the Tome Wizard takes, which means that Pact of the Tome Warlocks almost always have the Find Familiar spell.
By the way, you might want to check the Warlock spell list. Warlocks can learn Hypnotic Pattern (sorry, Mog). Warlocks can learn Fly. Warlocks can learn Banishment. Warlocks can learn Fear. Warlocks can get Polymorph from an invocation. Warlocks can get Slow from an invocation.
If you're going to argue that Warlocks aren't flexible because they don't have access to certain spells, you might want to not name a bunch of spells that they do know as proof. Instead of proving me to be wrong, because nearly half of the spells that you named are ones that Warlocks can learn, you're actually proving that I'm correct.
Edit: Celestial Warlocks can learn Wall of Fire, too.
I didn't just address combat, I also addressed sustained utility. I mentioned their access to spells like Silent Image, Detect Magic, Speak with Animals, Disguise Self, Alter Self, Speak with Dead, Arcane Eye, and Invisibility at will. These aren't combat spells. These are great utility/exploration/social spells that they get at will. Because they are at will, I would say this qualifies as sustained utility. Given their access to Disguise Self at will, they're also able to make excellent use of the Friends cantrip, which most classes avoid because they're not going to bother recasting Disguise Self every time they use the friends spell and make somebody angry at them. But Warlocks can do that.
Eldritch Blast has excellent flexibility in combat. It's lack of utility outside of combat doesn't mean that the Warlock isn't flexible. If it did, then the Fire Bolt cantrip "proves" that the Wizard is even less flexible than the Warlock. Your logic here is incredibly poor.
As for Wizards being able to buy new spells and learn them at DM discretion .... the Book of Ancient Secrets allows the Warlock to do that, too, with any ritual spell for any class in the game.
Pact of the Tome also gives you access to the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation, which almost every Pact of the Tome Wizard takes, which means that Pact of the Tome Warlocks almost always have the Find Familiar spell.
By the way, you might want to check the Warlock spell list. Warlocks can learn Hypnotic Pattern (sorry, Mog). Warlocks can learn Fly. Warlocks can learn Banishment. Warlocks can learn Fear. Warlocks can get Polymorph from an invocation. Warlocks can get Slow from an invocation.
If you're going to argue that Warlocks aren't flexible because they don't have access to certain spells, you might want to not name a bunch of spells that they do know as proof. Instead of proving me to be wrong, because nearly half of the spells that you named are ones that Warlocks can learn, you're actually proving that I'm correct.
Edit: Celestial Warlocks can learn Wall of Fire, too.
wasting invocations to get a handful of situational (but useful) spells is a massive waste. wizards can get them all without blinking an eye. also having fly is no good if you can't cast it consistently
I didn't just address combat, I also addressed sustained utility. I mentioned their access to spells like Silent Image, Detect Magic, Speak with Animals, Disguise Self, Alter Self, Speak with Dead, Arcane Eye, and Invisibility at will. These aren't combat spells. These are great utility/exploration/social spells that they get at will. Because they are at will, I would say this qualifies as sustained utility. Given their access to Disguise Self at will, they're also able to make excellent use of the Friends cantrip, which most classes avoid because they're not going to bother recasting Disguise Self every time they use the friends spell and make somebody angry at them. But Warlocks can do that.
Eldritch Blast has excellent flexibility in combat. It's lack of utility outside of combat doesn't mean that the Warlock isn't flexible. If it did, then the Fire Bolt cantrip "proves" that the Wizard is even less flexible than the Warlock. Your logic here is incredibly poor.
As for Wizards being able to buy new spells and learn them at DM discretion .... the Book of Ancient Secrets allows the Warlock to do that, too, with any ritual spell for any class in the game.
you 100% mentioned combat as you said "Fiendish Vigor makes the Warlock an extremely durable tank." (which is not true btw). also you only get 6 invocations at 18TH level you will only have 3 or 4 for the majority of your career compared to the ahem..........40 SPELLS THAT A WIZARD GETS AT THE SAME LEVEL. , so 1 you will never get all of the spells you listed, and 2 even if you do waste the few invocation slots you do have on them it will be very rare you ever use them. also you said EB is the only multi target cantrip? green flame blade, poison spray, acid splash, thunderclap, blade burst- these are the ones I can think of the top of my head. also you said that you could do the effects of a ray of frost, thorn whip and a pull effect? wizards can just get those cantrips. well not thorn whip but lightning lure is the same :) also the wizard gets access to waaaaaayy more utility cantrips.
finally no. no. and again no. book of ancient secrets is 1 an invocation tax, 2 it is only RITUAL SPELLS. none of the spells I listed were rituals. (none). (at all). I will admit I did not check the warlock spell list at the start so some of the spells over lapped, but still, the wizard gets access to a crap ton of spells on its spell list. a very lucky wizard with a ton of resources could learn up to 216 SPELLS. this is unlikely but it is possible. I specifically stated "any" new spell on the wizard list. (before you say you can cast them off any list, the wizard has all the ones you want). I rest my case.
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
The Book of Ancient Secrets is a popular invocation, it isn't seen as a waste. My Warlock has Fly and he casts it consistently. Being in a group with an Evocation Wizard, a Lore Bard, and a Battlemaster Fighter means that we short rest a few times a day. I chose to play a Celestial Warlock because I knew that we were going to be short resting frequently. And because I knew that our group needed a durable tank, and my Celestial Warlock is a very durable tank.
Fiendish Vigor does indeed make the Warlock a durable tank in tier 1 like I said. Starting every combat with 8 temporary HP, and being able to heal yourself for 5-8 at will is great in tier 1. In tier 2 were the enemies hit harder and your max HP is higher, it's not as good. But in tier 1, it's pretty good. But just like I didn't claim that the Celestial Pact of the Tome Warlock is more flexible than the Wizard, just that it is as flexible as the Wizard, I only claimed that Fiendish Vigor was good in tier 1. And I stand by that claim.
The Wizard doesn't get 40 spells at a point where the Warlock has only 3 or 4 invocations. The Warlock gets his 5th invocation at level 9, at which point a Wizard has 22 spells in his spell book, plus whatever he's purchased, of which he can only prepare 14 (plus he can cast his ritual spells from that spell book and he knows 4 cantrips). Whereas the Celestial Pact of the Tome Warlock now has 5 invocations, 8 cantrips, 3 Rituals spells + whatever he's purchased, and knows 10 spells that are always prepared.
The Celestial Pact of the Tome Warlock gets to know 7 cantrips at level 3, 8 cantrips at level 4, and 9 cantrips at level 10. The Wizard knows 3 cantrips at level 3, 4 cantrips at level 4, and 5 cantrips at level 10. Not only that, but because the Pact of the Tome Warlock gets to learn 3 of his cantrips from any class in the game, the Pact of the Tome Warlock gets access to WAAAAAAAYYYY more utility cantrips than the Wizard does. It's pretty rare for a Wizard to use one of his cantrips on Green Flame Blade, Thunderclap, or Blade Burst - these are melee cantrips. Green Flame Blade is a good cantrip, but Thunderclap and Blade Burst are weak cantrips that are pretty much never taken. Acid Splash is slightly more common, but it does have the limitation that the two targets need to be next to each other, whereas the Warlock can hit two targets that are 200ft apart from each other. And Poison Spray is single target. It's like you know nothing at all about playing a Wizard or a Warlock. How the heck can you say that a Wizard gets access to waaaaayyy more utility cantrips than a Celestial Pact of the Tome Warlock? Did you not read anything about the Celestial Pact of the Tome Warlock's abilities???
Lightning Lure has a 15ft range, Thorn Whip has a 30ft range, Ray of Frost has a 60ft range..... and Eldritch Blast has a 120ft range. And Eldritch blast takes up just 1 of your 5-7 cantrip slots, whereas taking Lightning Lure, Ray of Frost, Acid Splash, and Fire Bolt to try to match the Warlock's utility would literally take all 4 of the cantrip slots that a Wizard gets before level 10. And even then, Fire Bolt wouldn't match Eldritch Blast for damage, Acid Splash wouldn't match Eldritch Blast for multi-target ranged attacks, Lightning Lure wouldn't match Eldritch Blast for the ability to pull an enemy towards you, Ray of Frost wouldn't match Eldritch Blast for the ability to slow an enemy. And you would have no way of pushing an enemy away from you.
You've rested your case. You don't know what you're talking about. That much is very clear. Especially when you listed a bunch of spells on the Warlock list as proof that the Warlock doesn't have flexibility because the Warlock supposedly doesn't know those spells. And claimed that a Wizard gets access to waaaaaaayyy more utility cantrips than a Celestial Pact of the Tome Warlock.
Please read what a Warlock can do. It seems like you have no idea what abilities a Warlock gets.
The Book of Ancient Secrets is a popular invocation, it isn't seen as a waste. My Warlock has Fly and he casts it consistently. Being in a group with an Evocation Wizard, a Lore Bard, and a Battlemaster Fighter means that we short rest a few times a day. I chose to play a Celestial Warlock because I knew that we were going to be short resting frequently. And because I knew that our group needed a durable tank, and my Celestial Warlock is a very durable tank.
Fiendish Vigor does indeed make the Warlock a durable tank in tier 1 like I said. Starting every combat with 8 temporary HP, and being able to heal yourself for 5-8 at will is great in tier 1. In tier 2 were the enemies hit harder and your max HP is higher, it's not as good. But in tier 1, it's pretty good. But just like I didn't claim that the Celestial Pact of the Tome Warlock is more flexible than the Wizard, just that it is as flexible as the Wizard, I only claimed that Fiendish Vigor was good in tier 1. And I stand by that claim.
The Wizard doesn't get 40 spells at a point where the Warlock has only 3 or 4 invocations. The Warlock gets his 5th invocation at level 9, at which point a Wizard has 22 spells in his spell book, plus whatever he's purchased, of which he can only prepare 14 (plus he can cast his ritual spells from that spell book and he knows 4 cantrips). Whereas the Celestial Pact of the Tome Warlock now has 5 invocations, 8 cantrips, 3 Rituals spells + whatever he's purchased, and knows 10 spells that are always prepared.
The Celestial Pact of the Tome Warlock gets to know 7 cantrips at level 3, 8 cantrips at level 4, and 9 cantrips at level 10. The Wizard knows 3 cantrips at level 3, 4 cantrips at level 4, and 5 cantrips at level 10. Not only that, but because the Pact of the Tome Warlock gets to learn 3 of his cantrips from any class in the game, the Pact of the Tome Warlock gets access to WAAAAAAAYYYY more utility cantrips than the Wizard does. It's pretty rare for a Wizard to use one of his cantrips on Green Flame Blade, Thunderclap, or Blade Burst - these are melee cantrips. Green Flame Blade is a good cantrip, but Thunderclap and Blade Burst are weak cantrips that are pretty much never taken. Acid Splash is slightly more common, but it does have the limitation that the two targets need to be next to each other, whereas the Warlock can hit two targets that are 200ft apart from each other. And Poison Spray is single target. It's like you know nothing at all about playing a Wizard or a Warlock. How the heck can you say that a Wizard gets access to waaaaayyy more utility cantrips than a Celestial Pact of the Tome Warlock? Did you not read anything about the Celestial Pact of the Tome Warlock's abilities???
Lightning Lure has a 15ft range, Thorn Whip has a 30ft range, Ray of Frost has a 60ft range..... and Eldritch Blast has a 120ft range. And Eldritch blast takes up just 1 of your 5-7 cantrip slots, whereas taking Lightning Lure, Ray of Frost, Acid Splash, and Fire Bolt to try to match the Warlock's utility would literally take all 4 of the cantrip slots that a Wizard gets before level 10. And even then, Fire Bolt wouldn't match Eldritch Blast for damage, Acid Splash wouldn't match Eldritch Blast for multi-target ranged attacks, Lightning Lure wouldn't match Eldritch Blast for the ability to pull an enemy towards you, Ray of Frost wouldn't match Eldritch Blast for the ability to slow an enemy. And you would have no way of pushing an enemy away from you.
You've rested your case. You don't know what you're talking about. That much is very clear. Especially when you listed a bunch of spells on the Warlock list as proof that the Warlock doesn't have flexibility because the Warlock supposedly doesn't know those spells. And claimed that a Wizard gets access to waaaaaaayyy more utility cantrips than a Celestial Pact of the Tome Warlock.
Please read what a Warlock can do. It seems like you have no idea what abilities a Warlock gets.
Ya have fun with your 10 spells, 7 cantrips (with the pact) and 2 spell slots at level 10. While the wizard has 24 spells, 5 cantrips, and 15 spell slots. Glad you took all those invocations to even attempt to keep up in spell selection and casting ability. :)
A level 10 Wizard has 24 spells known, 15 spells prepared, 5 cantrips, 15 spell slots, of which 7 are levels 1 and 2. On his first short rest, he can get spell slots back equal to a 5th level slot, a 2nd and a 3rd, something like that. Subsequent short rests don't give any spell slots back. A Celestial Pact of the Tome Warlock with the Book of Ancient Secrets has 13 spells known, 10 spells prepared plus at least 3 rituals that can be cast, 9 cantrips, 5 invocations, and 2 5th level spell slots that come back on every short rest. Nearly half of the Wizard's spell slots are level 1 and 2 spell slots, and the Warlock gets to choose invocations that allow him to cast 1st and 2nd level spells at will, whereas the Wizard still has limited castings of these 1st and 2nd level spells. It's not until level 18 that a Wizard gets to cast non-ritual first and second level spells at will, while a Warlock can do it at level 2.
One of the big Warlock strengths is their ability to cast 1st and 2nd level exploration/social/utility spells at will if they choose the invocation for that spell. Add onto that a Pact of the Tome Warlock with the Book of Ancient Secrets and you get access to 3 cantrips from any class and 3 ritual spells from any class (plus the ability to learn more ritual spells). Pact of the Tome Warlock with the Book of Ancient Secrets specializes in at will magic. Wizards specialize in casting spells with their spell slots. The two are very different from each other.
The Celestial Warlock also has 11 D6 of Healing Light. How many spell slots is that worth? You don't even have to use an invocation to get access to this spell like ability that doesn't require any spell slots.
Gabrielrockman, I am betting you haven't played a wizard have you? Warlocks are low spell slotted Gishs, that get a few specialized abilities. The Pact of the Tome by itself is a weakened version of the Feat: Magic Initiate (giving up the 1st level spell to let you pick the Cantrips from any magic type). The Book of Ancient Secrets is a slightly more powerful version of the Ritual Magic feat (you get ritual magic from any class, not just your own - but there are not that many in the game).
Even with a Pact of Tome, Book of ancient secrets you only get RITUAL spells. And few spells are ritual spells. (Only 7 from the entire game above 3rd level: 1 4th, 4 5tgh and 2 6th - and only the 6th level spells are not divination). For example, you can not learn Hypnotic Pattern, one of the best wizard spells.
A real wizard will likely crush a Warlock that took those two invocations in a battle. They are fun to play but low in power.
I've played alongside wizards in three of the four campaigns that I've done. And unlike you, I actually know what a gish is. I've seen in a few different threads you've made a bunch of claims that make it clear you have no experience playing a caster. You don't even seem to understand how the concentration mechanic works.
Pact of the Tome is better than Magic Initiate. Three cantrips from any class is much better than two cantrips from the same class and one cast a day of a first level spell. Especially once you get to higher levels, that one cast per day of a first level spell isn't that great, but having an extra cantrip AND being able to choose the three cantrips from three different classes is great.
You named one spell that Wizards can learn and you're pretending like that's proof that they're more flexible?
A Warlock with the Pact of the Tome and and the Book of Ancient Secrets has a large number of cantrips (three of which can be from any class), access to rituals from any class, and access to invocations to give many abilities on command, such as False Life, Silent Image, Detect Magic, Speak with Animals, Disguise Self, Alter Self, Speak with Dead, Arcane Eye, Invisibility, etc. In tier 1, Fiendish Vigor makes the Warlock an extremely durable tank.
A Celestial Warlock gets Healing Light, and access to a bunch of healing and restoration type spells like Cure Wounds, Lesser Restoration, Revivify, and Greater Restoration. The Wizard doesn't have access to being a healer, but a Celestial Warlock adds that utility. If you want to talk about flexibility, the Wizard is completely unable to fill that role. On the other hand, the Wizard (especially the Abjuration Wizard) can specialize in Counterspell and Dispel Magic type effects and a Warlock doesn't have the spell slots to keep up with that.
The Warlock can throw its Eldritch Blast at multiple targets, but the Wizard's cantrips are only single target. The Warlock can turn his Eldritch Blast into the movement speed debuff of a Ray of Frost, or the pull of Thorn Whip, or into a push effect. The multiple use per turn of a 10ft push effect that isn't affected by concentration and has a 120ft range makes Warlocks exceptionally good at crowd control. You can damage a Wizard and get him to lose concentration on web or another crowd control spell, but it's a heck of a lot harder to get a Warlock to stop pushing you around with his Eldritch Blast.
The Warlock can play the party face role extremely well, especially with Disguise Self at will. This comes in handy much more often than the Wizard's specialization at being the party detective/investigator. Wizards are great at specializing in one type of magic (hence the school they choose), but for flexibility, they're still good, but they're no more flexible than a Warlock.
You'll notice that I didn't say that I thought a Warlock was much more flexible than a Wizard. I said that a Pact of the Tome Celestial Warlock with the Book of Ancient Secrets is just as flexible as a Wizard, and I stand by that assertion. I'm not saying that Wizards aren't flexible. Just that a Warlock can match them in flexibility.
I am currently playing a pure divination wizard, level 11. Every Sunday.
I may have a different definition of Gish than you, but that's a minor thing. I know an awful lot about the game that you clearly do not.
But most important, you have NO idea what the word specialization means. Specialization means you can not change your role from one day to the next. If you pick a healing build, that's it, you will be the healer for at least the next level, if not the game. Generalization means one day you can be spitting fire and other attack spells out, the next day you are all about the divination, the next day you are all about the buffs, the next day you are all about the crowd control.
Most importantly, let me tell this to you in big letters, so you understand it:
Specialists will ALWAYS defeat a generalist in their specialty. But never outside of it.
The main reason your arguments sucked is you kept saying how good this particular build was, how a wizard could not stand against it in this particular manner. How that particular healer warlock could do x, and that particular disguise warlock could do y, and that particular Blaster warlock could do z.
When you thought you were proving yourself right, you were proving yourself wrong.
Generalists do everything ok, not perfect. Specialists do one thing really well, and can't do anything else.
Magic Initiate is not Find Familiar + 2 cantrips. it is ANY 1st level spell plus 2 cantrips. Far better than 3 cantrips, even if they come from 3 different classes.
You keep thinking that a lot of ritual spells makes up for the TON of Wizard spells. Here are the numbers:
From my count there are a total of 34 ritual spells in all classes. Get your three cantrips from any class. Plus your 4 known cantrips, and 15 spells known. Add in 8 invocations and 4 Mystic Arcanum.
That means any single day a 20th level Warlock wakes up, he has at most 7 cantrips and 61 possible spells to choose from. He can only cast 4 spells, and 4 arcanum, but the rest could be unlimited. But that does not matter. The point is he is limited to those 68 possible things to do. No matter how wealthy he is, he can't change them, he is stuck with those 68 magical effects.
Compare that not with a 20th level Wizard, but instead with the 5th level Wizard that is the son of a 20th level wizard. His father has taught him all the 1-3rd level spells. He has to choose between 128 spells. Which ones will he memorize?
Is he stronger than that 20th level Warlock? No. Don't be ridiculous.
But he is a generalist. He can Fly, he can alter self , he can counter spell, he can do quite literally do 128 things, (plus his cantrips). That 5th level Wizard an do almost twice as many different things than the 20th level Warlock.
You think that 2 cantrips plus casting a 1st level spell once per long rest is better than 3 cantrips? When the 2 cantrips and 1st level spell all need to be from the same class's spell list, but the 3 cantrips can be from any spell list? C'mon man!
That's odd that you are saying a specialist can never defeat a generalist outside of their speciality. I guess just like you're using a different definition for "Gish" than everyone else, and you're also using different definitions for specialist and generalist.
An evocation Wizard specializes in Evocation magic. But he's still going to be better at counterspelling than a Warlock. I guess you object to saying that an Evocation Wizard specializes in Evocation magic? C'mon man!
By the way, you have forgotten that Warlocks are allowed to do short rests during the day. Yet another glaring mistake showing how little you know about spellcasting. Just like you forgot that Warlocks can learn Hypnotic Pattern, and tried to use their 'inability' to learn that spell to show how inflexible they are.
68 magical effects to choose from is more than enough. You're not lacking in flexibility if you have 68 different magical effects to choose from each day. Flexibility isn't just how many different spells do you know. It's also about how varied the spells are, how often you can cast them, and how powerful they are.
The Wizard's strength is the sheer number of spell slots they have. The Warlock's strength is their at will magic and ability to recover all their spell slots after a short rest (an ability you forgot about).
A Warlock doesn't out-Wizard a Wizard, but they're not trying to. A Wizard blows a Warlock out of the water with their number of spell slots, but a Warlock blows the Wizard out of the water with their huge range of at will magic. They're good at different things. Proving that a Wizard is better at Wizard stuff than a Warlock doesn't prove that the Wizard is more flexible.
How many spells can a Celestial Pact of the Tome Warlock with the book of Ancient Secrets cast at will? How many can a Wizard cast at will? The Warlock wins. Especially when you look at how many he can cast at will in one action, and the power of these spells he can cast at will as an action. What does this mean? Does it mean the Warlock is more flexible than the Wizard? No. It means the Warlock is better at Warlock stuff than the Wizard is. It means the two classes are different from each other.
The Warlock can do plenty of things the Wizard can't do, and the Wizard can do plenty of things the Warlock can't do. Why? Because they are different classes. It's how the game was designed. Stop trying to pretend that a Warlock needs to try to pretend to be a Wizard, and let the Warlock be a Warlock.
And learn the basics about how a Warlock is played. Please stop claiming that they can't learn Hypnotic Pattern or that they only get four spell slots per day.
Since generalists do everything okay, how well does your Wizard generalist heal his allies? A Celestial Warlock can do a decent job healing his allies.
You need a new definition for generalist. Your wizard is not able to do everything. He is not a generalist under your definition.
Healing your allies is an example of part of the flexibility that a Celestial Warlock brings.
As for Gish, the term refers to a character that is skilled in melee and in the use of magic and uses magic to buff his melee combat abilities. Warlocks (especially Hexblade) and Wizards (especially Abjuration and Bladesinger) can do this, but most Warlocks and most Wizards are blasters, not gishes. And it doesn't seem like this player wants to play a gish, so claiming that Warlocks are gishes is a misleading way to discourage him from playing a Warlock. I hope this helps.
As for Gish, the term refers to a character that is skilled in melee and in the use of magic and uses magic to buff his melee combat abilities. Warlocks (especially Hexblade) and Wizards (especially Abjuration and Bladesinger) can do this, but most Warlocks and most Wizards are blasters, not gishes. And it doesn't seem like this player wants to play a gish, so claiming that Warlocks are gishes is a misleading way to discourage him from playing a Warlock. I hope this helps.
this is so not true. like very very wrong. you have obviously not played dnd for long. this is a very generic use of "Gish" which has been popularized .....
ONLY IN 5E
the original use of "gish" comes from 3.5 when the gith were introduced. it was used to describe a Githyanki fighter wizard combo that was popular at the time. this combo was USUALLY A DIP IN FIGHTER TO COMPLIMENT THE SPELLCASTERS TANKINESS. now it is used to describe subclasses like the blade bard and EK and multiclasses like the pal/sorcerer and the HEXBLADE AND CELESTIAL BLADELOCKS. but the original meaning was different.
Since generalists do everything okay, how well does your Wizard generalist heal his allies? A Celestial Warlock can do a decent job healing his allies.
You need a new definition for generalist. Your wizard is not able to do everything. He is not a generalist under your definition.
Healing your allies is an example of part of the flexibility that a Celestial Warlock brings.
GENRALIST NOT EVERYTHING-IST. GENRALIST. a wizard can do MOST things decently and a few things better than other classes. they can buff and damage pretty well, but can control and be utility EXTREMELY WELL.
this is another rule of thumb. if you have more spells known.......belive it or not.......you actually have a greater range of spells you can cast AT WILL.
You think that 2 cantrips plus casting a 1st level spell once per long rest is better than 3 cantrips? When the 2 cantrips and 1st level spell all need to be from the same class's spell list, but the 3 cantrips can be from any spell list? C'mon man!
That's odd that you are saying a specialist can never defeat a generalist outside of their speciality. I guess just like you're using a different definition for "Gish" than everyone else, and you're also using different definitions for specialist and generalist.
An evocation Wizard specializes in Evocation magic. But he's still going to be better at counterspelling than a Warlock. I guess you object to saying that an Evocation Wizard specializes in Evocation magic? C'mon man!
By the way, you have forgotten that Warlocks are allowed to do short rests during the day. Yet another glaring mistake showing how little you know about spellcasting. Just like you forgot that Warlocks can learn Hypnotic Pattern, and tried to use their 'inability' to learn that spell to show how inflexible they are.
68 magical effects to choose from is more than enough. You're not lacking in flexibility if you have 68 different magical effects to choose from each day. Flexibility isn't just how many different spells do you know. It's also about how varied the spells are, how often you can cast them, and how powerful they are.
The Wizard's strength is the sheer number of spell slots they have. The Warlock's strength is their at will magic and ability to recover all their spell slots after a short rest (an ability you forgot about).
A Warlock doesn't out-Wizard a Wizard, but they're not trying to. A Wizard blows a Warlock out of the water with their number of spell slots, but a Warlock blows the Wizard out of the water with their huge range of at will magic. They're good at different things. Proving that a Wizard is better at Wizard stuff than a Warlock doesn't prove that the Wizard is more flexible.
How many spells can a Celestial Pact of the Tome Warlock with the book of Ancient Secrets cast at will? How many can a Wizard cast at will? The Warlock wins. Especially when you look at how many he can cast at will in one action, and the power of these spells he can cast at will as an action. What does this mean? Does it mean the Warlock is more flexible than the Wizard? No. It means the Warlock is better at Warlock stuff than the Wizard is. It means the two classes are different from each other.
The Warlock can do plenty of things the Wizard can't do, and the Wizard can do plenty of things the Warlock can't do. Why? Because they are different classes. It's how the game was designed. Stop trying to pretend that a Warlock needs to try to pretend to be a Wizard, and let the Warlock be a Warlock.
And learn the basics about how a Warlock is played. Please stop claiming that they can't learn Hypnotic Pattern or that they only get four spell slots per day.
you dont get "68 magical effects to choose from each day" you get a max of 15 comapared to a WIZARDS 44. the spells on the warlock list are in general less powerful, less useful, and even if you are taking 3 short rests a day the wizard can cast more spells than you. yours may be higher level BUT IF YOU ARE CASTING UTILITY.....MOST DONT SCALE WITH SPELL LEVEL. A WIZART CAN GET EVERY SINGLE RITUAL SPELL YOU GET AND NOT PUT A DENT IN HIS SPELLS KNOWN. YOU GET NO AT WILL SPELLS APART FROM CANTRIPS WHICH ARE NEVER AS GOOD AS CASTING A REAL SPELL.
I. REST. MY. CASE.
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
As for Gish, the term refers to a character that is skilled in melee and in the use of magic and uses magic to buff his melee combat abilities. Warlocks (especially Hexblade) and Wizards (especially Abjuration and Bladesinger) can do this, but most Warlocks and most Wizards are blasters, not gishes. And it doesn't seem like this player wants to play a gish, so claiming that Warlocks are gishes is a misleading way to discourage him from playing a Warlock. I hope this helps.
this is so not true. like very very wrong. you have obviously not played dnd for long. this is a very generic use of "Gish" which has been popularized .....
ONLY IN 5E
the original use of "gish" comes from 3.5 when the gith were introduced. it was used to describe a Githyanki fighter wizard combo that was popular at the time. this combo was USUALLY A DIP IN FIGHTER TO COMPLIMENT THE SPELLCASTERS TANKINESS. now it is used to describe subclasses like the blade bard and EK and multiclasses like the pal/sorcerer and the HEXBLADE AND CELESTIAL BLADELOCKS. but the original meaning was different.
In other words, what I said is exactly true. The term is used to describe a character that is a spellcaster with excellent melee abilities. A blaster Warlock that doesn't go into melee isn't a gish. A melee Hexblade or a melee Celestial is indeed a gish. Explain to me again how I'm wrong, because what I see from you've written is confirming that the term gish refers to a melee player that uses magic.
And I do know that originally the term referred to the Githyanky fighter-wizard combo, but I'm taking the middle ground between you and Mog, who thinks that the Warlock Eldritch blaster is a Gish, too. And somehow, taking the middle ground gets people yelling at me and being rude.
I'm trying to take the middle ground and not be confrontational, and that seems to really piss people off. I tried saying that the Celestial Pact of the Tome Warlock was just as flexible as the Wizard, not saying that one is better than the other, but treating them as equals, and that seems to have really upset people that I would make such a conciliatory statement trying to please both sides.
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Hi!
So, I have an odd Sorcerer concept. She is a half-blue dragon, half-elf who is not a good sorceress. At one point she was stronger, but being a hybrid she has basically become "allergic" to her own magic blood and has been dying. Sort of a genetic magic Lupus that she is trying to circumvent.
As a showing of this, we are doing point buy and her Strength is stuck at 5 (-3), but I get 3 bonus points to spend elsewhere.
She has a Pact in story with a Silver Dragon. This character was originally going to be a Sorlock: Draconic Blood Sorcerer, 3 Celestial Warlock Pact of the Tome.
Since our party is her, a Rune Knight Goliath, and a Paladin Goliath we are an odd composition.
My new option is this: I can keep the Draconic Sorcerer 1 and respec my Attributes to instead take Order of the Scribe Wizard at level 2 and beyond.
The 1 level of draco sorcerer is locked, but attributes are point buy flexible. I can take 3 levels of celestial tomelock for low level rituals, rescue healing, eldritch blast but be hindered in Sorcerer leveling. Or, I can go full Scribe Wizard the rest of the way and have the flexibility of Wizard in a lower magic group.
We are also low on charisma as a group - the goliaths are not talking powerhouses.
In both cases, both options lead to the same Pact story and recovery story, albeit the wizard one more mind over failing body while the sorlock route is more of a slow recovery.
I am just unsure where to take this. In ether case, Im the only ritual caster, only primary magic user, we have two melee and one off-healer paladin and no Revivify for a loooong time.
My excitement says take the shiny Scribe Wizard because I love the fluff, my storyteller says go Sorlock, and my brain sees the utility usefulness of both in different ways.
Thoughts?
Ahhh! This is hurting me too. Maybe go one level of warlock, then the rest wizard? Focus on dex, int and cha. Con should be at least 12. That multiclass seems odd, but I think it's fine. For story: you have inate power, but because your dying you made a pact with a silver dragon. They only gave you enough power to survive, though it meant you could no longer get magic from your blood. So you had to study to regain magic, and found a place as a scribe in the service of the silver dragon.
How'd that sound?
'The Cleverness of mushrooms always surprises me!' - Ivern Bramblefoot.
I'll worldbuild for your DnD games!
Just a D&D enjoyer, check out my fiverr page if you need any worldbuilding done for ya!
The 1 level of Warlock crossed my mind as well actually. It isnt the worst dip - the single distance heal, access to cure wounds and hex or agathys, a couple bonus utility cantrips (not worth grabbing EB really), and bonus light cantrip and a sacred flame that might not be used a lot.
It definitely still fits the flavor. Then again, a single dip into cleric might give me the offheal I need as well...
I think a Pact of the Tome Warlock with the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation is just as flexible as a Wizard. I don't think there are too many good reasons to go with Wizard instead of Pact of the Tome Warlock. If you take Celestial Warlock up to level 5, you'll get Revivify, so that's a nice perk of choosing Warlock.
I'm playing a Celestial Warlock right now, and it is a lot of fun. I do recommend the subclass.
Gabrielrockman, I am betting you haven't played a wizard have you? Warlocks are low spell slotted Gishs, that get a few specialized abilities. The Pact of the Tome by itself is a weakened version of the Feat: Magic Initiate (giving up the 1st level spell to let you pick the Cantrips from any magic type). The Book of Ancient Secrets is a slightly more powerful version of the Ritual Magic feat (you get ritual magic from any class, not just your own - but there are not that many in the game).
Even with a Pact of Tome, Book of ancient secrets you only get RITUAL spells. And few spells are ritual spells. (Only 7 from the entire game above 3rd level: 1 4th, 4 5tgh and 2 6th - and only the 6th level spells are not divination). For example, you can not learn Hypnotic Pattern, one of the best wizard spells.
A real wizard will likely crush a Warlock that took those two invocations in a battle. Those invocations are fun to play but low in power.
this is true, unless you do a very specialized celestial tome (to get Shilleighly) warlock/ draconic sorc w quarterstaff and green flame blade. you can actually get some good damage but at that point you are a one trick pony Gish. on the other hand a draconic sorcerer will absolutely wreck a wizard in combat. wizards are very much "I can cast a lot of spells" vs sorcerer "I can destroy you with the 2 spells I know"
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
I've played alongside wizards in three of the four campaigns that I've done. And unlike you, I actually know what a gish is. I've seen in a few different threads you've made a bunch of claims that make it clear you have no experience playing a caster. You don't even seem to understand how the concentration mechanic works.
Pact of the Tome is better than Magic Initiate. Three cantrips from any class is much better than two cantrips from the same class and one cast a day of a first level spell. Especially once you get to higher levels, that one cast per day of a first level spell isn't that great, but having an extra cantrip AND being able to choose the three cantrips from three different classes is great.
You named one spell that Wizards can learn and you're pretending like that's proof that they're more flexible?
A Warlock with the Pact of the Tome and and the Book of Ancient Secrets has a large number of cantrips (three of which can be from any class), access to rituals from any class, and access to invocations to give many abilities on command, such as False Life, Silent Image, Detect Magic, Speak with Animals, Disguise Self, Alter Self, Speak with Dead, Arcane Eye, Invisibility, etc. In tier 1, Fiendish Vigor makes the Warlock an extremely durable tank.
A Celestial Warlock gets Healing Light, and access to a bunch of healing and restoration type spells like Cure Wounds, Lesser Restoration, Revivify, and Greater Restoration. The Wizard doesn't have access to being a healer, but a Celestial Warlock adds that utility. If you want to talk about flexibility, the Wizard is completely unable to fill that role. On the other hand, the Wizard (especially the Abjuration Wizard) can specialize in Counterspell and Dispel Magic type effects and a Warlock doesn't have the spell slots to keep up with that.
The Warlock can throw its Eldritch Blast at multiple targets, but the Wizard's cantrips are only single target. The Warlock can turn his Eldritch Blast into the movement speed debuff of a Ray of Frost, or the pull of Thorn Whip, or into a push effect. The multiple use per turn of a 10ft push effect that isn't affected by concentration and has a 120ft range makes Warlocks exceptionally good at crowd control. You can damage a Wizard and get him to lose concentration on web or another crowd control spell, but it's a heck of a lot harder to get a Warlock to stop pushing you around with his Eldritch Blast.
The Warlock can play the party face role extremely well, especially with Disguise Self at will. This comes in handy much more often than the Wizard's specialization at being the party detective/investigator. Wizards are great at specializing in one type of magic (hence the school they choose), but for flexibility, they're still good, but they're no more flexible than a Warlock.
You'll notice that I didn't say that I thought a Warlock was much more flexible than a Wizard. I said that a Pact of the Tome Celestial Warlock with the Book of Ancient Secrets is just as flexible as a Wizard, and I stand by that assertion. I'm not saying that Wizards aren't flexible. Just that a Warlock can match them in flexibility.
1.playing alongside a wizard is definitely not playing a wizard
2.pact of the tome is much worse than magic initiate. the feat allows you to get two cantrips and the find familiar spell, basically allowing you to get pact of the tome and pact of the chain at the same time (albeit nerfed versions)
3. dont get me wrong warlock is my favourite class but they are NOT a utility caster.most of the invocations are either combat based or are very situational. wizard gets access to sooo many spells the warlock does not, such as
fly- for obvious reasons
Web - classic area control
Color spray - No save, really helps melee allies
Phantasmal force - Basically takes out one enemy
Levitate - con save but usually ends a melee enemy
Fear - disarm and get rid of some enemies
Slow - hard to make it stick but extremely powerful and makes followup fireballs amazing
Tidal wave - dmg and prone helps melee allies a lot
When you get 4th level spells:
Banishment - absolutely brutal with ready actions
Faithful hound - absolutely brutal long term area control
Resilient sphere - save or die
Polymorph - save or die
Wall of fire - damage and you choose the side they end up on
yes warlock invocations can mimic a few of these, but you will rarely be able to cast them as well. also the argument that warlocks get spell slots back on a short rest is irrelevant as wizards do as well.
4. your argument for eldritch blast is only combat focused NOT FLEXIBLE AT ALL.
5. wizards can buy new spells and learn them(dm discretion)
6. you do make a good point about warlocks being a party face tho. and mask of many faces plus the actor feat is very potent.
all in all the warlock is good In combat but is lacking in sustained utility and is not very flexible
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Pact of the Tome also gives you access to the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation, which almost every Pact of the Tome Wizard takes, which means that Pact of the Tome Warlocks almost always have the Find Familiar spell.
By the way, you might want to check the Warlock spell list. Warlocks can learn Hypnotic Pattern (sorry, Mog). Warlocks can learn Fly. Warlocks can learn Banishment. Warlocks can learn Fear. Warlocks can get Polymorph from an invocation. Warlocks can get Slow from an invocation.
If you're going to argue that Warlocks aren't flexible because they don't have access to certain spells, you might want to not name a bunch of spells that they do know as proof. Instead of proving me to be wrong, because nearly half of the spells that you named are ones that Warlocks can learn, you're actually proving that I'm correct.
Edit: Celestial Warlocks can learn Wall of Fire, too.
I didn't just address combat, I also addressed sustained utility. I mentioned their access to spells like Silent Image, Detect Magic, Speak with Animals, Disguise Self, Alter Self, Speak with Dead, Arcane Eye, and Invisibility at will. These aren't combat spells. These are great utility/exploration/social spells that they get at will. Because they are at will, I would say this qualifies as sustained utility. Given their access to Disguise Self at will, they're also able to make excellent use of the Friends cantrip, which most classes avoid because they're not going to bother recasting Disguise Self every time they use the friends spell and make somebody angry at them. But Warlocks can do that.
Eldritch Blast has excellent flexibility in combat. It's lack of utility outside of combat doesn't mean that the Warlock isn't flexible. If it did, then the Fire Bolt cantrip "proves" that the Wizard is even less flexible than the Warlock. Your logic here is incredibly poor.
As for Wizards being able to buy new spells and learn them at DM discretion .... the Book of Ancient Secrets allows the Warlock to do that, too, with any ritual spell for any class in the game.
wasting invocations to get a handful of situational (but useful) spells is a massive waste. wizards can get them all without blinking an eye. also having fly is no good if you can't cast it consistently
you 100% mentioned combat as you said "Fiendish Vigor makes the Warlock an extremely durable tank." (which is not true btw). also you only get 6 invocations at 18TH level you will only have 3 or 4 for the majority of your career compared to the ahem..........40 SPELLS THAT A WIZARD GETS AT THE SAME LEVEL. , so 1 you will never get all of the spells you listed, and 2 even if you do waste the few invocation slots you do have on them it will be very rare you ever use them. also you said EB is the only multi target cantrip? green flame blade, poison spray, acid splash, thunderclap, blade burst- these are the ones I can think of the top of my head. also you said that you could do the effects of a ray of frost, thorn whip and a pull effect? wizards can just get those cantrips. well not thorn whip but lightning lure is the same :) also the wizard gets access to waaaaaayy more utility cantrips.
finally no. no. and again no. book of ancient secrets is 1 an invocation tax, 2 it is only RITUAL SPELLS. none of the spells I listed were rituals. (none). (at all). I will admit I did not check the warlock spell list at the start so some of the spells over lapped, but still, the wizard gets access to a crap ton of spells on its spell list. a very lucky wizard with a ton of resources could learn up to 216 SPELLS. this is unlikely but it is possible. I specifically stated "any" new spell on the wizard list. (before you say you can cast them off any list, the wizard has all the ones you want). I rest my case.
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Yeah, you don't have a clue.
The Book of Ancient Secrets is a popular invocation, it isn't seen as a waste. My Warlock has Fly and he casts it consistently. Being in a group with an Evocation Wizard, a Lore Bard, and a Battlemaster Fighter means that we short rest a few times a day. I chose to play a Celestial Warlock because I knew that we were going to be short resting frequently. And because I knew that our group needed a durable tank, and my Celestial Warlock is a very durable tank.
Fiendish Vigor does indeed make the Warlock a durable tank in tier 1 like I said. Starting every combat with 8 temporary HP, and being able to heal yourself for 5-8 at will is great in tier 1. In tier 2 were the enemies hit harder and your max HP is higher, it's not as good. But in tier 1, it's pretty good. But just like I didn't claim that the Celestial Pact of the Tome Warlock is more flexible than the Wizard, just that it is as flexible as the Wizard, I only claimed that Fiendish Vigor was good in tier 1. And I stand by that claim.
The Wizard doesn't get 40 spells at a point where the Warlock has only 3 or 4 invocations. The Warlock gets his 5th invocation at level 9, at which point a Wizard has 22 spells in his spell book, plus whatever he's purchased, of which he can only prepare 14 (plus he can cast his ritual spells from that spell book and he knows 4 cantrips). Whereas the Celestial Pact of the Tome Warlock now has 5 invocations, 8 cantrips, 3 Rituals spells + whatever he's purchased, and knows 10 spells that are always prepared.
The Celestial Pact of the Tome Warlock gets to know 7 cantrips at level 3, 8 cantrips at level 4, and 9 cantrips at level 10. The Wizard knows 3 cantrips at level 3, 4 cantrips at level 4, and 5 cantrips at level 10. Not only that, but because the Pact of the Tome Warlock gets to learn 3 of his cantrips from any class in the game, the Pact of the Tome Warlock gets access to WAAAAAAAYYYY more utility cantrips than the Wizard does. It's pretty rare for a Wizard to use one of his cantrips on Green Flame Blade, Thunderclap, or Blade Burst - these are melee cantrips. Green Flame Blade is a good cantrip, but Thunderclap and Blade Burst are weak cantrips that are pretty much never taken. Acid Splash is slightly more common, but it does have the limitation that the two targets need to be next to each other, whereas the Warlock can hit two targets that are 200ft apart from each other. And Poison Spray is single target. It's like you know nothing at all about playing a Wizard or a Warlock. How the heck can you say that a Wizard gets access to waaaaayyy more utility cantrips than a Celestial Pact of the Tome Warlock? Did you not read anything about the Celestial Pact of the Tome Warlock's abilities???
Lightning Lure has a 15ft range, Thorn Whip has a 30ft range, Ray of Frost has a 60ft range..... and Eldritch Blast has a 120ft range. And Eldritch blast takes up just 1 of your 5-7 cantrip slots, whereas taking Lightning Lure, Ray of Frost, Acid Splash, and Fire Bolt to try to match the Warlock's utility would literally take all 4 of the cantrip slots that a Wizard gets before level 10. And even then, Fire Bolt wouldn't match Eldritch Blast for damage, Acid Splash wouldn't match Eldritch Blast for multi-target ranged attacks, Lightning Lure wouldn't match Eldritch Blast for the ability to pull an enemy towards you, Ray of Frost wouldn't match Eldritch Blast for the ability to slow an enemy. And you would have no way of pushing an enemy away from you.
You've rested your case. You don't know what you're talking about. That much is very clear. Especially when you listed a bunch of spells on the Warlock list as proof that the Warlock doesn't have flexibility because the Warlock supposedly doesn't know those spells. And claimed that a Wizard gets access to waaaaaaayyy more utility cantrips than a Celestial Pact of the Tome Warlock.
Please read what a Warlock can do. It seems like you have no idea what abilities a Warlock gets.
Ya have fun with your 10 spells, 7 cantrips (with the pact) and 2 spell slots at level 10. While the wizard has 24 spells, 5 cantrips, and 15 spell slots. Glad you took all those invocations to even attempt to keep up in spell selection and casting ability. :)
A level 10 Wizard has 24 spells known, 15 spells prepared, 5 cantrips, 15 spell slots, of which 7 are levels 1 and 2. On his first short rest, he can get spell slots back equal to a 5th level slot, a 2nd and a 3rd, something like that. Subsequent short rests don't give any spell slots back. A Celestial Pact of the Tome Warlock with the Book of Ancient Secrets has 13 spells known, 10 spells prepared plus at least 3 rituals that can be cast, 9 cantrips, 5 invocations, and 2 5th level spell slots that come back on every short rest. Nearly half of the Wizard's spell slots are level 1 and 2 spell slots, and the Warlock gets to choose invocations that allow him to cast 1st and 2nd level spells at will, whereas the Wizard still has limited castings of these 1st and 2nd level spells. It's not until level 18 that a Wizard gets to cast non-ritual first and second level spells at will, while a Warlock can do it at level 2.
One of the big Warlock strengths is their ability to cast 1st and 2nd level exploration/social/utility spells at will if they choose the invocation for that spell. Add onto that a Pact of the Tome Warlock with the Book of Ancient Secrets and you get access to 3 cantrips from any class and 3 ritual spells from any class (plus the ability to learn more ritual spells). Pact of the Tome Warlock with the Book of Ancient Secrets specializes in at will magic. Wizards specialize in casting spells with their spell slots. The two are very different from each other.
The Celestial Warlock also has 11 D6 of Healing Light. How many spell slots is that worth? You don't even have to use an invocation to get access to this spell like ability that doesn't require any spell slots.
I am currently playing a pure divination wizard, level 11. Every Sunday.
I may have a different definition of Gish than you, but that's a minor thing. I know an awful lot about the game that you clearly do not.
But most important, you have NO idea what the word specialization means. Specialization means you can not change your role from one day to the next. If you pick a healing build, that's it, you will be the healer for at least the next level, if not the game. Generalization means one day you can be spitting fire and other attack spells out, the next day you are all about the divination, the next day you are all about the buffs, the next day you are all about the crowd control.
Most importantly, let me tell this to you in big letters, so you understand it:
Specialists will ALWAYS defeat a generalist in their specialty. But never outside of it.
The main reason your arguments sucked is you kept saying how good this particular build was, how a wizard could not stand against it in this particular manner. How that particular healer warlock could do x, and that particular disguise warlock could do y, and that particular Blaster warlock could do z.
When you thought you were proving yourself right, you were proving yourself wrong.
Generalists do everything ok, not perfect. Specialists do one thing really well, and can't do anything else.
Magic Initiate is not Find Familiar + 2 cantrips. it is ANY 1st level spell plus 2 cantrips. Far better than 3 cantrips, even if they come from 3 different classes.
You keep thinking that a lot of ritual spells makes up for the TON of Wizard spells. Here are the numbers:
From my count there are a total of 34 ritual spells in all classes. Get your three cantrips from any class. Plus your 4 known cantrips, and 15 spells known. Add in 8 invocations and 4 Mystic Arcanum.
That means any single day a 20th level Warlock wakes up, he has at most 7 cantrips and 61 possible spells to choose from. He can only cast 4 spells, and 4 arcanum, but the rest could be unlimited. But that does not matter. The point is he is limited to those 68 possible things to do. No matter how wealthy he is, he can't change them, he is stuck with those 68 magical effects.
Compare that not with a 20th level Wizard, but instead with the 5th level Wizard that is the son of a 20th level wizard. His father has taught him all the 1-3rd level spells. He has to choose between 128 spells. Which ones will he memorize?
Is he stronger than that 20th level Warlock? No. Don't be ridiculous.
But he is a generalist. He can Fly, he can alter self , he can counter spell, he can do quite literally do 128 things, (plus his cantrips). That 5th level Wizard an do almost twice as many different things than the 20th level Warlock.
That my friend is called a Generalist.
You think that 2 cantrips plus casting a 1st level spell once per long rest is better than 3 cantrips? When the 2 cantrips and 1st level spell all need to be from the same class's spell list, but the 3 cantrips can be from any spell list? C'mon man!
That's odd that you are saying a specialist can never defeat a generalist outside of their speciality. I guess just like you're using a different definition for "Gish" than everyone else, and you're also using different definitions for specialist and generalist.
An evocation Wizard specializes in Evocation magic. But he's still going to be better at counterspelling than a Warlock. I guess you object to saying that an Evocation Wizard specializes in Evocation magic? C'mon man!
By the way, you have forgotten that Warlocks are allowed to do short rests during the day. Yet another glaring mistake showing how little you know about spellcasting. Just like you forgot that Warlocks can learn Hypnotic Pattern, and tried to use their 'inability' to learn that spell to show how inflexible they are.
68 magical effects to choose from is more than enough. You're not lacking in flexibility if you have 68 different magical effects to choose from each day. Flexibility isn't just how many different spells do you know. It's also about how varied the spells are, how often you can cast them, and how powerful they are.
The Wizard's strength is the sheer number of spell slots they have. The Warlock's strength is their at will magic and ability to recover all their spell slots after a short rest (an ability you forgot about).
A Warlock doesn't out-Wizard a Wizard, but they're not trying to. A Wizard blows a Warlock out of the water with their number of spell slots, but a Warlock blows the Wizard out of the water with their huge range of at will magic. They're good at different things. Proving that a Wizard is better at Wizard stuff than a Warlock doesn't prove that the Wizard is more flexible.
How many spells can a Celestial Pact of the Tome Warlock with the book of Ancient Secrets cast at will? How many can a Wizard cast at will? The Warlock wins. Especially when you look at how many he can cast at will in one action, and the power of these spells he can cast at will as an action. What does this mean? Does it mean the Warlock is more flexible than the Wizard? No. It means the Warlock is better at Warlock stuff than the Wizard is. It means the two classes are different from each other.
The Warlock can do plenty of things the Wizard can't do, and the Wizard can do plenty of things the Warlock can't do. Why? Because they are different classes. It's how the game was designed. Stop trying to pretend that a Warlock needs to try to pretend to be a Wizard, and let the Warlock be a Warlock.
And learn the basics about how a Warlock is played. Please stop claiming that they can't learn Hypnotic Pattern or that they only get four spell slots per day.
Since generalists do everything okay, how well does your Wizard generalist heal his allies? A Celestial Warlock can do a decent job healing his allies.
You need a new definition for generalist. Your wizard is not able to do everything. He is not a generalist under your definition.
Healing your allies is an example of part of the flexibility that a Celestial Warlock brings.
As for Gish, the term refers to a character that is skilled in melee and in the use of magic and uses magic to buff his melee combat abilities. Warlocks (especially Hexblade) and Wizards (especially Abjuration and Bladesinger) can do this, but most Warlocks and most Wizards are blasters, not gishes. And it doesn't seem like this player wants to play a gish, so claiming that Warlocks are gishes is a misleading way to discourage him from playing a Warlock. I hope this helps.
this is so not true. like very very wrong. you have obviously not played dnd for long. this is a very generic use of "Gish" which has been popularized .....
ONLY IN 5E
the original use of "gish" comes from 3.5 when the gith were introduced. it was used to describe a Githyanki fighter wizard combo that was popular at the time. this combo was USUALLY A DIP IN FIGHTER TO COMPLIMENT THE SPELLCASTERS TANKINESS. now it is used to describe subclasses like the blade bard and EK and multiclasses like the pal/sorcerer and the HEXBLADE AND CELESTIAL BLADELOCKS. but the original meaning was different.
GENRALIST NOT EVERYTHING-IST. GENRALIST. a wizard can do MOST things decently and a few things better than other classes. they can buff and damage pretty well, but can control and be utility EXTREMELY WELL.
this is another rule of thumb. if you have more spells known.......belive it or not.......you actually have a greater range of spells you can cast AT WILL.
you dont get "68 magical effects to choose from each day" you get a max of 15 comapared to a WIZARDS 44. the spells on the warlock list are in general less powerful, less useful, and even if you are taking 3 short rests a day the wizard can cast more spells than you. yours may be higher level BUT IF YOU ARE CASTING UTILITY.....MOST DONT SCALE WITH SPELL LEVEL. A WIZART CAN GET EVERY SINGLE RITUAL SPELL YOU GET AND NOT PUT A DENT IN HIS SPELLS KNOWN. YOU GET NO AT WILL SPELLS APART FROM CANTRIPS WHICH ARE NEVER AS GOOD AS CASTING A REAL SPELL.
I. REST. MY. CASE.
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
In other words, what I said is exactly true. The term is used to describe a character that is a spellcaster with excellent melee abilities. A blaster Warlock that doesn't go into melee isn't a gish. A melee Hexblade or a melee Celestial is indeed a gish. Explain to me again how I'm wrong, because what I see from you've written is confirming that the term gish refers to a melee player that uses magic.
And I do know that originally the term referred to the Githyanky fighter-wizard combo, but I'm taking the middle ground between you and Mog, who thinks that the Warlock Eldritch blaster is a Gish, too. And somehow, taking the middle ground gets people yelling at me and being rude.
I'm trying to take the middle ground and not be confrontational, and that seems to really piss people off. I tried saying that the Celestial Pact of the Tome Warlock was just as flexible as the Wizard, not saying that one is better than the other, but treating them as equals, and that seems to have really upset people that I would make such a conciliatory statement trying to please both sides.