Since generalists do everything okay, how well does your Wizard generalist heal his allies? A Celestial Warlock can do a decent job healing his allies.
You need a new definition for generalist. Your wizard is not able to do everything. He is not a generalist under your definition.
Healing your allies is an example of part of the flexibility that a Celestial Warlock brings.
GENRALIST NOT EVERYTHING-IST. GENRALIST. a wizard can do MOST things decently and a few things better than other classes. they can buff and damage pretty well, but can control and be utility EXTREMELY WELL.
this is another rule of thumb. if you have more spells known.......belive it or not.......you actually have a greater range of spells you can cast AT WILL.
Please see page 201 of the PHB. The use of the term "at will" refers to a spell that can be cast an unlimited number of times per day without using a spell slot. Spells known that require you to use a spell slot to cast them cannot be cast "at will". If you don't have a spell slot available to cast the spell, you cannot cast it, thus it is not an "at will" spell. The Warlock's specialty is the number of spells that they can cast at will - i.e. that they can cast an unlimited number of times per day (well, limited to 14,400 times per day in most cases).
You think that 2 cantrips plus casting a 1st level spell once per long rest is better than 3 cantrips? When the 2 cantrips and 1st level spell all need to be from the same class's spell list, but the 3 cantrips can be from any spell list? C'mon man!
That's odd that you are saying a specialist can never defeat a generalist outside of their speciality. I guess just like you're using a different definition for "Gish" than everyone else, and you're also using different definitions for specialist and generalist.
An evocation Wizard specializes in Evocation magic. But he's still going to be better at counterspelling than a Warlock. I guess you object to saying that an Evocation Wizard specializes in Evocation magic? C'mon man!
By the way, you have forgotten that Warlocks are allowed to do short rests during the day. Yet another glaring mistake showing how little you know about spellcasting. Just like you forgot that Warlocks can learn Hypnotic Pattern, and tried to use their 'inability' to learn that spell to show how inflexible they are.
68 magical effects to choose from is more than enough. You're not lacking in flexibility if you have 68 different magical effects to choose from each day. Flexibility isn't just how many different spells do you know. It's also about how varied the spells are, how often you can cast them, and how powerful they are.
The Wizard's strength is the sheer number of spell slots they have. The Warlock's strength is their at will magic and ability to recover all their spell slots after a short rest (an ability you forgot about).
A Warlock doesn't out-Wizard a Wizard, but they're not trying to. A Wizard blows a Warlock out of the water with their number of spell slots, but a Warlock blows the Wizard out of the water with their huge range of at will magic. They're good at different things. Proving that a Wizard is better at Wizard stuff than a Warlock doesn't prove that the Wizard is more flexible.
How many spells can a Celestial Pact of the Tome Warlock with the book of Ancient Secrets cast at will? How many can a Wizard cast at will? The Warlock wins. Especially when you look at how many he can cast at will in one action, and the power of these spells he can cast at will as an action. What does this mean? Does it mean the Warlock is more flexible than the Wizard? No. It means the Warlock is better at Warlock stuff than the Wizard is. It means the two classes are different from each other.
The Warlock can do plenty of things the Wizard can't do, and the Wizard can do plenty of things the Warlock can't do. Why? Because they are different classes. It's how the game was designed. Stop trying to pretend that a Warlock needs to try to pretend to be a Wizard, and let the Warlock be a Warlock.
And learn the basics about how a Warlock is played. Please stop claiming that they can't learn Hypnotic Pattern or that they only get four spell slots per day.
you dont get "68 magical effects to choose from each day" you get a max of 15 comapared to a WIZARDS 44. the spells on the warlock list are in general less powerful, less useful, and even if you are taking 3 short rests a day the wizard can cast more spells than you. yours may be higher level BUT IF YOU ARE CASTING UTILITY.....MOST DONT SCALE WITH SPELL LEVEL. A WIZART CAN GET EVERY SINGLE RITUAL SPELL YOU GET AND NOT PUT A DENT IN HIS SPELLS KNOWN. YOU GET NO AT WILL SPELLS APART FROM CANTRIPS WHICH ARE NEVER AS GOOD AS CASTING A REAL SPELL.
I. REST. MY. CASE.
That was Mog that came up with the number 68, not me. Yell at him, not me. Or just don't yell.
A Wizard cannot get every single ritual spell that a Pact of the Tome Warlock with the Book of Ancient Secrets can get. Please read what the invocation does.
As for your claim that Warlocks don't get any at will spells apart from cantrips, here are some of the invocations that you've failed to read:
A r m o r o f S h a d o w s You can cast mage armor on yourself at will, without expending a spell slot or material components.
A s c e n d a n t St e p Prerequisite: 9th level You can cast levitate on yourself at will, without expending a spell slot or material components.
B e a s t S p e e c h You can cast speak with animals at will, without expending a spell slot.
C h a in s o f C a r c e r i Prerequisite: 15th level, Pact of the Chain feature You can cast hold monster at will—targeting a celestial, fiend, or elemental—without expending a spell slot or material components. You must finish a long rest before you can use this invocation on the same creature again.
F i e n d i s h V i g o r You can cast false life on yourself at will as a 1st-level spell, without expending a spell slot or material components.
M a s k o f M a n y Fa c e s You can cast disguise self at will, without expending a spell slot.
M a s t e r o f M y r i a d F o r m s Prerequisite: 15th level You can cast alter self at will, without expending a spell slot.
M i s t y V i s i o n s You can cast silent image at will, without expending a spell slot or material components.
O t h e r w o r l d l y L e a p Prerequisite: 9th level You can cast jump on yourself at will, without expending a spell slot or material components.
V i s i o n s o f D i s t a n t R e a l m s Prerequisite: 15th level You can cast arcane eye at will, without expending a spell slot.
W h i s p e r s o f t h e G r a v e Prerequisite: 9th level You can cast speak with dead at will, without expending a spell slot.
If you bothered to read the invocations, you'd also notice that the invocations that give you access to a spell where you have to use a spell slot to cast it, it doesn't use the phrase "at will", such as: M i r e t h e M i n d Prerequisite: 5th level You can cast slow once using a warlock spell slot. You can’t do so again until you finish a long rest.
Please, stop yelling at me. Just because you haven't bothered to read the PHB and learned what a Warlock can and cannot do, that doesn't mean that its appropriate to yell at me.
As for Gish, the term refers to a character that is skilled in melee and in the use of magic and uses magic to buff his melee combat abilities. Warlocks (especially Hexblade) and Wizards (especially Abjuration and Bladesinger) can do this, but most Warlocks and most Wizards are blasters, not gishes. And it doesn't seem like this player wants to play a gish, so claiming that Warlocks are gishes is a misleading way to discourage him from playing a Warlock. I hope this helps.
this is so not true. like very very wrong. you have obviously not played dnd for long. this is a very generic use of "Gish" which has been popularized .....
ONLY IN 5E
the original use of "gish" comes from 3.5 when the gith were introduced. it was used to describe a Githyanki fighter wizard combo that was popular at the time. this combo was USUALLY A DIP IN FIGHTER TO COMPLIMENT THE SPELLCASTERS TANKINESS. now it is used to describe subclasses like the blade bard and EK and multiclasses like the pal/sorcerer and the HEXBLADE AND CELESTIAL BLADELOCKS. but the original meaning was different.
In other words, what I said is exactly true. The term is used to describe a character that is a spellcaster with excellent melee abilities. A blaster Warlock that doesn't go into melee isn't a gish. A melee Hexblade or a melee Celestial is indeed a gish. Explain to me again how I'm wrong, because what I see from you've written is confirming that the term gish refers to a melee player that uses magic.
And I do know that originally the term referred to the Githyanky fighter-wizard combo, but I'm taking the middle ground between you and Mog, who thinks that the Warlock Eldritch blaster is a Gish, too. And somehow, taking the middle ground gets people yelling at me and being rude.
I'm trying to take the middle ground and not be confrontational, and that seems to really piss people off. I tried saying that the Celestial Pact of the Tome Warlock was just as flexible as the Wizard, not saying that one is better than the other, but treating them as equals, and that seems to have really upset people that I would make such a conciliatory statement trying to please both sides.
no. a Gish can be either a caster who is very tanky but still casts spells aka a blaster hex blade or celestial warlock, or a fighter that uses magic to compliment his melee abilities so mod was right.
things may have got a bit out of hand so lets just agree to disagree
As for Gish, the term refers to a character that is skilled in melee and in the use of magic and uses magic to buff his melee combat abilities. Warlocks (especially Hexblade) and Wizards (especially Abjuration and Bladesinger) can do this, but most Warlocks and most Wizards are blasters, not gishes. And it doesn't seem like this player wants to play a gish, so claiming that Warlocks are gishes is a misleading way to discourage him from playing a Warlock. I hope this helps.
this is so not true. like very very wrong. you have obviously not played dnd for long. this is a very generic use of "Gish" which has been popularized .....
ONLY IN 5E
the original use of "gish" comes from 3.5 when the gith were introduced. it was used to describe a Githyanki fighter wizard combo that was popular at the time. this combo was USUALLY A DIP IN FIGHTER TO COMPLIMENT THE SPELLCASTERS TANKINESS. now it is used to describe subclasses like the blade bard and EK and multiclasses like the pal/sorcerer and the HEXBLADE AND CELESTIAL BLADELOCKS. but the original meaning was different.
In other words, what I said is exactly true. The term is used to describe a character that is a spellcaster with excellent melee abilities. A blaster Warlock that doesn't go into melee isn't a gish. A melee Hexblade or a melee Celestial is indeed a gish. Explain to me again how I'm wrong, because what I see from you've written is confirming that the term gish refers to a melee player that uses magic.
And I do know that originally the term referred to the Githyanky fighter-wizard combo, but I'm taking the middle ground between you and Mog, who thinks that the Warlock Eldritch blaster is a Gish, too. And somehow, taking the middle ground gets people yelling at me and being rude.
I'm trying to take the middle ground and not be confrontational, and that seems to really piss people off. I tried saying that the Celestial Pact of the Tome Warlock was just as flexible as the Wizard, not saying that one is better than the other, but treating them as equals, and that seems to have really upset people that I would make such a conciliatory statement trying to please both sides.
no. a Gish can be either a caster who is very tanky but still casts spells aka a blaster hex blade or celestial warlock, or a fighter that uses magic to compliment his melee abilities so mod was right.
things may have got a bit out of hand so lets just agree to disagree
So Warlock blasters that have access to light armor and don't get to use medium armor or shields are very tanky because they have a D8 hit die instead of a D6 like a Sorcerer or Wizard? Even though they prefer to stand around 100ft away from the battle and attack with ranged attacks? And therefore Warlock blasters are gishes?
I do agree with you that we disagree with each other. I'm fine with disagreeing with you about the definition of a gish, and even the definition of "very tanky." I'll agree to disagree with you on those two definitions.
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Please see page 201 of the PHB. The use of the term "at will" refers to a spell that can be cast an unlimited number of times per day without using a spell slot. Spells known that require you to use a spell slot to cast them cannot be cast "at will". If you don't have a spell slot available to cast the spell, you cannot cast it, thus it is not an "at will" spell. The Warlock's specialty is the number of spells that they can cast at will - i.e. that they can cast an unlimited number of times per day (well, limited to 14,400 times per day in most cases).
And please stop shouting.
That was Mog that came up with the number 68, not me. Yell at him, not me. Or just don't yell.
A Wizard cannot get every single ritual spell that a Pact of the Tome Warlock with the Book of Ancient Secrets can get. Please read what the invocation does.
As for your claim that Warlocks don't get any at will spells apart from cantrips, here are some of the invocations that you've failed to read:
A r m o r o f S h a d o w s
You can cast mage armor on yourself at will, without expending a spell slot or material components.
A s c e n d a n t St e p
Prerequisite: 9th level You can cast levitate on yourself at will, without expending a spell slot or material components.
B e a s t S p e e c h
You can cast speak with animals at will, without expending a spell slot.
C h a in s o f C a r c e r i
Prerequisite: 15th level, Pact of the Chain feature
You can cast hold monster at will—targeting a celestial, fiend, or elemental—without expending a spell slot or material components. You must finish a long rest before you can use this invocation on the same creature again.
F i e n d i s h V i g o r
You can cast false life on yourself at will as a 1st-level spell, without expending a spell slot or material components.
M a s k o f M a n y Fa c e s
You can cast disguise self at will, without expending a spell slot.
M a s t e r o f M y r i a d F o r m s
Prerequisite: 15th level
You can cast alter self at will, without expending a spell slot.
M i s t y V i s i o n s
You can cast silent image at will, without expending a spell slot or material components.
O t h e r w o r l d l y L e a p
Prerequisite: 9th level
You can cast jump on yourself at will, without expending a spell slot or material components.
V i s i o n s o f D i s t a n t R e a l m s
Prerequisite: 15th level
You can cast arcane eye at will, without expending a spell slot.
W h i s p e r s o f t h e G r a v e
Prerequisite: 9th level
You can cast speak with dead at will, without expending a spell slot.
If you bothered to read the invocations, you'd also notice that the invocations that give you access to a spell where you have to use a spell slot to cast it, it doesn't use the phrase "at will", such as:
M i r e t h e M i n d
Prerequisite: 5th level
You can cast slow once using a warlock spell slot. You can’t do so again until you finish a long rest.
Please, stop yelling at me. Just because you haven't bothered to read the PHB and learned what a Warlock can and cannot do, that doesn't mean that its appropriate to yell at me.
no. a Gish can be either a caster who is very tanky but still casts spells aka a blaster hex blade or celestial warlock, or a fighter that uses magic to compliment his melee abilities so mod was right.
things may have got a bit out of hand so lets just agree to disagree
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
So Warlock blasters that have access to light armor and don't get to use medium armor or shields are very tanky because they have a D8 hit die instead of a D6 like a Sorcerer or Wizard? Even though they prefer to stand around 100ft away from the battle and attack with ranged attacks? And therefore Warlock blasters are gishes?
I do agree with you that we disagree with each other. I'm fine with disagreeing with you about the definition of a gish, and even the definition of "very tanky." I'll agree to disagree with you on those two definitions.