About to run Decent into Avernus and I know they typically only go to level 13~, but im trying to make the optimal Swashbuckler/Battlemaster level split.
Im going rouge 1st level 100% I am going Human Variant and taking the Lucky Feat I will be using shield and rapier primarily Is it worth to take fighter to level 5? Do i....
a) Rouge 1 >Fighter 1 > Rouge to level 4 to get Swash + ASI > Fighter to level 3 to get Battle Master b) Rouge 1 > Fighter to 2 > Rouge to 5 > Fighter to 3 c) Rouge to 3 > Fighter to 3 > Rouge rest
My main goal is to get both sub classes up and running ASAP without hindering myself too hard
Probably rogue 2>fighter 3. You take the 2 rogue first for the cunning action, which means you can get sneak attack most rounds. Maybe a couple more fighter levels for ASI and extra attack and then back to rogue
I'd probably do your A path. The build would rely more on the sneak attack damage, vs multiple strikes, but gets you access to potentially heavier armor(medium, which may not be very important), and the shield proficiencies (way more important based on your description) sooner that way, and upping your attack bonus sooner rather than later.
The downside is that you will have most your damage focused on that one single hit; if you dual wielded you could mitigate that, but again you were going for a shield in the mix. The multiple attack for a Fighter 5, would mitigated the lack of sneak attack damage due to a miss, but you will go 4 levels without any damage increase doing it. You would get Superiority dice and maneuvers, so its a trade of versatility vs raw DPR. But the ability to get that ASI boost sooner is probably the better path.
I'd probably do your A path. The build would rely more on the sneak attack damage, vs multiple strikes, but gets you access to potentially heavier armor(medium, which may not be very important), and the shield proficiencies (way more important based on your description) sooner that way, and upping your attack bonus sooner rather than later.
The downside is that you will have most your damage focused on that one single hit; if you dual wielded you could mitigate that, but again you were going for a shield in the mix. The multiple attack for a Fighter 5, would mitigated the lack of sneak attack damage due to a miss, but you will go 4 levels without any damage increase doing it. You would get Superiority dice and maneuvers, so its a trade of versatility vs raw DPR. But the ability to get that ASI boost sooner is probably the better path.
Im more worried about the theme of the character, AKA Shield + Rapier rather than raw DPR early on. We have 2 wizards in the group a cleric and a druid so I feel damage wise we are okay and thats not really what is the most important thing to me. I really want to get that shield going asap and get 17 AC early so I can dive into the mix
I'd probably do your A path. The build would rely more on the sneak attack damage, vs multiple strikes, but gets you access to potentially heavier armor(medium, which may not be very important), and the shield proficiencies (way more important based on your description) sooner that way, and upping your attack bonus sooner rather than later.
The downside is that you will have most your damage focused on that one single hit; if you dual wielded you could mitigate that, but again you were going for a shield in the mix. The multiple attack for a Fighter 5, would mitigated the lack of sneak attack damage due to a miss, but you will go 4 levels without any damage increase doing it. You would get Superiority dice and maneuvers, so its a trade of versatility vs raw DPR. But the ability to get that ASI boost sooner is probably the better path.
Im more worried about the theme of the character, AKA Shield + Rapier rather than raw DPR early on. We have 2 wizards in the group a cleric and a druid so I feel damage wise we are okay and thats not really what is the most important thing to me. I really want to get that shield going asap and get 17 AC early so I can dive into the mix
Are you wanting to act as a tank and stick in the action? Or are you just stressed about taking hits when going in? Or is it simply a matter of a rogue with a rapier and shield that has you excited?
If you are wanting to tank a bit more, getting early fighter levels will help you with the HP pool. The sneak attack + shield combo isn't something that screams attack from the shadows and getting a bonus action hide may not be good enough for the DM to grant advantage on the attack. Attacking someone within 5 ft of another ally is much more likely to produce reliable results for sneak attack if you're thinking of using a shield so that you can tank. Once you get Rakish Audacity (Swashbuckler 3), having that person in range even becomes unnecessary. If you went Rogue 2 for cunning action, you'd have a bonus action disengage, but rogue 1 fighter 2 would give you Action Surge to be able to disengage or dodge once per rest whenever you wanted and attack.
If you aren't planning on tanking and are planning on skirmishing more, getting Swashbuckler 3 would give you Fancy Footwork which applies a quasi disengage on any creature that you attack. Getting in and attacking while dual wielding can give you a lot of opportunity to strike in melee and get away without incurring OAs from up to two enemies until you get fighter 5 (or use an action surge to attack). You can attack once to apply fancy footwork, bonus action attack (the same target for more damage or another target if you couldn't get to your target without moving into OA range) or bonus action dash to increase speed to get to safety. Then you could start taking Fighter levels to get the skills that you want (and either take two weapon fighting for a little extra punch on that second attack or defensive fighting for half of that shield). The two weapon fighting would me that you couldn't use a rapier until you got the dual wielder feat (which would give you the other half of the shield and let you dual wield non light weapons for rapiers) which might not fit the theme. The over all damage on weapon attacks would be 1d8+2+dex (+3? I'll call it that for the example. That's 4.5+5=9.5 average damage on a hit (plus sneak attack if applicable) for the rapier or 2d6+3(+3 if two weapon fighting style) for 3.5×2+3(+3)=>7+3(+3)=10 (13) across two hits. If you miss one, you can still hit with the second (fancy footwork doesn't require a hit, just an attack) and you have two opportunities to land a hit for sneak attack. The damage is close if you go defensive fighting style over two weapon fighting style while remaining within a reasonable range for your AC, but much better with two weapon fighting at the cost of your bonus action.
The thematics of going Rapier and shield would probably demand Rogue 1 Fighter 1 or Rogue 2 Fighter 1. Then it's a question of which dynamic you really want to press. Getting Swashbuckler 3 gives you a lot of personal freedom to get where you want and apply sneak attack liberally, regardless of what you do with your bonus action. Getting Fighter 3 gives you more battlefield control on the form of superiority dice to help the group more while potentially getting your sneak attack applied reasonably after a trip attack or the like. You're not likely stressed about tanking if this was your option, but the opportunity to do so in patches would play into the decision of more fighter early or more rogue early.
Finally, Fighter gets 3 ASIs by level 8, Rogue only gets the two (Rogue's first bonus ASI comes at 10). This might help if you are eyeing a feat and a couple of ASIs to max your dex.
TLDR, the specific reason that you are wanting to go with the build will influence what you want to emphasize. Figure out which path means more to you an emphasize that path after picking up your must haves from the other.
I'd probably do your A path. The build would rely more on the sneak attack damage, vs multiple strikes, but gets you access to potentially heavier armor(medium, which may not be very important), and the shield proficiencies (way more important based on your description) sooner that way, and upping your attack bonus sooner rather than later.
The downside is that you will have most your damage focused on that one single hit; if you dual wielded you could mitigate that, but again you were going for a shield in the mix. The multiple attack for a Fighter 5, would mitigated the lack of sneak attack damage due to a miss, but you will go 4 levels without any damage increase doing it. You would get Superiority dice and maneuvers, so its a trade of versatility vs raw DPR. But the ability to get that ASI boost sooner is probably the better path.
Im more worried about the theme of the character, AKA Shield + Rapier rather than raw DPR early on. We have 2 wizards in the group a cleric and a druid so I feel damage wise we are okay and thats not really what is the most important thing to me. I really want to get that shield going asap and get 17 AC early so I can dive into the mix
Are you wanting to act as a tank and stick in the action? Or are you just stressed about taking hits when going in? Or is it simply a matter of a rogue with a rapier and shield that has you excited?
If you are wanting to tank a bit more, getting early fighter levels will help you with the HP pool. The sneak attack + shield combo isn't something that screams attack from the shadows and getting a bonus action hide may not be good enough for the DM to grant advantage on the attack. Attacking someone within 5 ft of another ally is much more likely to produce reliable results for sneak attack if you're thinking of using a shield so that you can tank. Once you get Rakish Audacity (Swashbuckler 3), having that person in range even becomes unnecessary. If you went Rogue 2 for cunning action, you'd have a bonus action disengage, but rogue 1 fighter 2 would give you Action Surge to be able to disengage or dodge once per rest whenever you wanted and attack.
If you aren't planning on tanking and are planning on skirmishing more, getting Swashbuckler 3 would give you Fancy Footwork which applies a quasi disengage on any creature that you attack. Getting in and attacking while dual wielding can give you a lot of opportunity to strike in melee and get away without incurring OAs from up to two enemies until you get fighter 5 (or use an action surge to attack). You can attack once to apply fancy footwork, bonus action attack (the same target for more damage or another target if you couldn't get to your target without moving into OA range) or bonus action dash to increase speed to get to safety. Then you could start taking Fighter levels to get the skills that you want (and either take two weapon fighting for a little extra punch on that second attack or defensive fighting for half of that shield). The two weapon fighting would me that you couldn't use a rapier until you got the dual wielder feat (which would give you the other half of the shield and let you dual wield non light weapons for rapiers) which might not fit the theme. The over all damage on weapon attacks would be 1d8+2+dex (+3? I'll call it that for the example. That's 4.5+5=9.5 average damage on a hit (plus sneak attack if applicable) for the rapier or 2d6+3(+3 if two weapon fighting style) for 3.5×2+3(+3)=>7+3(+3)=10 (13) across two hits. If you miss one, you can still hit with the second (fancy footwork doesn't require a hit, just an attack) and you have two opportunities to land a hit for sneak attack. The damage is close if you go defensive fighting style over two weapon fighting style while remaining within a reasonable range for your AC, but much better with two weapon fighting at the cost of your bonus action.
The thematics of going Rapier and shield would probably demand Rogue 1 Fighter 1 or Rogue 2 Fighter 1. Then it's a question of which dynamic you really want to press. Getting Swashbuckler 3 gives you a lot of personal freedom to get where you want and apply sneak attack liberally, regardless of what you do with your bonus action. Getting Fighter 3 gives you more battlefield control on the form of superiority dice to help the group more while potentially getting your sneak attack applied reasonably after a trip attack or the like. You're not likely stressed about tanking if this was your option, but the opportunity to do so in patches would play into the decision of more fighter early or more rogue early.
Finally, Fighter gets 3 ASIs by level 8, Rogue only gets the two (Rogue's first bonus ASI comes at 10). This might help if you are eyeing a feat and a couple of ASIs to max your dex.
TLDR, the specific reason that you are wanting to go with the build will influence what you want to emphasize. Figure out which path means more to you an emphasize that path after picking up your must haves from the other.
Ya it all depends on the Druid, if they are "tanking" I want to be a "sees BBEG, and dives in" So thats why i wanted a shield with my first few levels, and also why rouge 3/fighter 3 is appealing to me. I also like the idea of getting sneak attacks while next to someone, damage is important, but i will be one of two possible melee PC's so thats my main reasons for shield.
I could go Human Variant > Feat Duel wielding and that would open either option up once i settle into the party's play style
If i wanted to go DPR route, would that be Rouge 3 > Fighter 5?
I think i would personally go: level1-4 rogue, lvl5-8fighter, then finish the campaign with rogue levels.
I would take magic initiate instead of lucky as the first level feat (personally id go booming blade, minor illusion and find familiar), take DEX+2 at the lvl4 asi, and then lucky at the lvl8 asi (or perhaps lucky at level4 instead, depending on your character preferences).
I would take magic initiate because booming blade will help the gap as you multiclass, and BB+swash is really quite good due to the free disengage. This setup would allow you a midgame power spike at lvl7 with the addition of maneuvers, but keep a core rogue identity.
Extra attack is nice for ensuring your sneak attack goes off, but you also have lucky and the ability to two weapon fight as options for that.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
About to run Decent into Avernus and I know they typically only go to level 13~, but im trying to make the optimal Swashbuckler/Battlemaster level split.
Im going rouge 1st level 100%
I am going Human Variant and taking the Lucky Feat
I will be using shield and rapier primarily
Is it worth to take fighter to level 5?
Do i....
a) Rouge 1 >Fighter 1 > Rouge to level 4 to get Swash + ASI > Fighter to level 3 to get Battle Master
b) Rouge 1 > Fighter to 2 > Rouge to 5 > Fighter to 3
c) Rouge to 3 > Fighter to 3 > Rouge rest
My main goal is to get both sub classes up and running ASAP without hindering myself too hard
Probably rogue 2>fighter 3. You take the 2 rogue first for the cunning action, which means you can get sneak attack most rounds. Maybe a couple more fighter levels for ASI and extra attack and then back to rogue
I exist, and I guess so does this
Dueling for sure for your fighting style
I exist, and I guess so does this
Ya was def going to go dueling 100%,
Interesting rouge 2 > Fighter. I sorta like that!
On the Swashbuckler/Battlemaster I sometimes play, I go 5 levels of fighter and the rest in rogue, mostly in order to get extra attack.
Hombrew: Way of Wresting, Circle of Sacrifice
Unfortunately, with that split you miss the massive selection of skills available from starting in rogue
I exist, and I guess so does this
I start with rogue, then multiclass into fighter somewhere at around level 4 or 5. I probably should have worded that better.
Hombrew: Way of Wresting, Circle of Sacrifice
Ah. I would do the level split of rogue 2>fighter 5>rogue the rest of the way
I exist, and I guess so does this
Thats the main reason I will be starting rouge!
Is it really worth waiting till level 8+ to get into swashbuckler? I feel missing out on those sweet sneak attacks are huge
I'd probably do your A path. The build would rely more on the sneak attack damage, vs multiple strikes, but gets you access to potentially heavier armor(medium, which may not be very important), and the shield proficiencies (way more important based on your description) sooner that way, and upping your attack bonus sooner rather than later.
The downside is that you will have most your damage focused on that one single hit; if you dual wielded you could mitigate that, but again you were going for a shield in the mix. The multiple attack for a Fighter 5, would mitigated the lack of sneak attack damage due to a miss, but you will go 4 levels without any damage increase doing it. You would get Superiority dice and maneuvers, so its a trade of versatility vs raw DPR. But the ability to get that ASI boost sooner is probably the better path.
Im more worried about the theme of the character, AKA Shield + Rapier rather than raw DPR early on. We have 2 wizards in the group a cleric and a druid so I feel damage wise we are okay and thats not really what is the most important thing to me. I really want to get that shield going asap and get 17 AC early so I can dive into the mix
Are you wanting to act as a tank and stick in the action? Or are you just stressed about taking hits when going in? Or is it simply a matter of a rogue with a rapier and shield that has you excited?
If you are wanting to tank a bit more, getting early fighter levels will help you with the HP pool. The sneak attack + shield combo isn't something that screams attack from the shadows and getting a bonus action hide may not be good enough for the DM to grant advantage on the attack. Attacking someone within 5 ft of another ally is much more likely to produce reliable results for sneak attack if you're thinking of using a shield so that you can tank. Once you get Rakish Audacity (Swashbuckler 3), having that person in range even becomes unnecessary. If you went Rogue 2 for cunning action, you'd have a bonus action disengage, but rogue 1 fighter 2 would give you Action Surge to be able to disengage or dodge once per rest whenever you wanted and attack.
If you aren't planning on tanking and are planning on skirmishing more, getting Swashbuckler 3 would give you Fancy Footwork which applies a quasi disengage on any creature that you attack. Getting in and attacking while dual wielding can give you a lot of opportunity to strike in melee and get away without incurring OAs from up to two enemies until you get fighter 5 (or use an action surge to attack). You can attack once to apply fancy footwork, bonus action attack (the same target for more damage or another target if you couldn't get to your target without moving into OA range) or bonus action dash to increase speed to get to safety. Then you could start taking Fighter levels to get the skills that you want (and either take two weapon fighting for a little extra punch on that second attack or defensive fighting for half of that shield). The two weapon fighting would me that you couldn't use a rapier until you got the dual wielder feat (which would give you the other half of the shield and let you dual wield non light weapons for rapiers) which might not fit the theme. The over all damage on weapon attacks would be 1d8+2+dex (+3? I'll call it that for the example. That's 4.5+5=9.5 average damage on a hit (plus sneak attack if applicable) for the rapier or 2d6+3(+3 if two weapon fighting style) for 3.5×2+3(+3)=>7+3(+3)=10 (13) across two hits. If you miss one, you can still hit with the second (fancy footwork doesn't require a hit, just an attack) and you have two opportunities to land a hit for sneak attack. The damage is close if you go defensive fighting style over two weapon fighting style while remaining within a reasonable range for your AC, but much better with two weapon fighting at the cost of your bonus action.
The thematics of going Rapier and shield would probably demand Rogue 1 Fighter 1 or Rogue 2 Fighter 1. Then it's a question of which dynamic you really want to press. Getting Swashbuckler 3 gives you a lot of personal freedom to get where you want and apply sneak attack liberally, regardless of what you do with your bonus action. Getting Fighter 3 gives you more battlefield control on the form of superiority dice to help the group more while potentially getting your sneak attack applied reasonably after a trip attack or the like. You're not likely stressed about tanking if this was your option, but the opportunity to do so in patches would play into the decision of more fighter early or more rogue early.
Finally, Fighter gets 3 ASIs by level 8, Rogue only gets the two (Rogue's first bonus ASI comes at 10). This might help if you are eyeing a feat and a couple of ASIs to max your dex.
TLDR, the specific reason that you are wanting to go with the build will influence what you want to emphasize. Figure out which path means more to you an emphasize that path after picking up your must haves from the other.
Ya it all depends on the Druid, if they are "tanking" I want to be a "sees BBEG, and dives in" So thats why i wanted a shield with my first few levels, and also why rouge 3/fighter 3 is appealing to me. I also like the idea of getting sneak attacks while next to someone, damage is important, but i will be one of two possible melee PC's so thats my main reasons for shield.
I could go Human Variant > Feat Duel wielding and that would open either option up once i settle into the party's play style
If i wanted to go DPR route, would that be Rouge 3 > Fighter 5?
I think i would personally go: level1-4 rogue, lvl5-8fighter, then finish the campaign with rogue levels.
I would take magic initiate instead of lucky as the first level feat (personally id go booming blade, minor illusion and find familiar), take DEX+2 at the lvl4 asi, and then lucky at the lvl8 asi (or perhaps lucky at level4 instead, depending on your character preferences).
I would take magic initiate because booming blade will help the gap as you multiclass, and BB+swash is really quite good due to the free disengage. This setup would allow you a midgame power spike at lvl7 with the addition of maneuvers, but keep a core rogue identity.
Extra attack is nice for ensuring your sneak attack goes off, but you also have lucky and the ability to two weapon fight as options for that.