Yeah, I'm not too sure what Chicken_Champ is talking about. First, he doesn't seem to know that Shield ALWAYS is activated after the attack roll is seen. Secondly, healing in general is pretty trash in 5e, and is absolutely not what any Cleric besides a Life Cleric should be specializing it. I'd recommend having 1 healing spell just to get an unconcious ally off the ground, but doing that every round is really not good in 5e. Thirdly, Guiding Bolt is widely thought to be one of the best 1st-level Cleric spells, and one of the better 1st-level spells in general. Also, he seems to be implying that Sorcerers care less about their spell slots, which makes absolutely no sense.
Yeah, I was working off of memory and had kind of merged Shield with the wording of Lucky where "You can choose to spend one of your luck points after you roll the die, but before the outcome is determined." Around the table, when the DM attacks me and I choose to cast Shield, they usually ask me to make that call without knowing what they rolled behind the screen... I'd kind of just assumed that DM should do the same for players, but the text of the spell doesn't really require that, you're right.
Sorcerers care less about spell slots compared to other casters, because Sorcerers have a greater flexibility to recover spell slots than other casters. That's all I meant by that.
Healing is trash compared to damage from a math perspective (better to mitigate damage by dropping targets than to mitigate damage by healing). But 1) that true-ism sort of relies on assuming a multi-enemy encounter, where the parties' damage is lowering the enemy teams DPR, while GB usually gets trotted out in single-enemy boss battles where the team's damage isn't reducing the enemy's, and 2) it overlooks that whether it's efficeient or not, healing is needed, especially at low levels. The "tank" may have 20ish hit points at low levels while the squishy characters only have 10ish, but that doesn't mean that they aren't going to go down fast from a lucky hit or two, or that the enemy isn't going to eat an attack of opportunity from them to rush past and chomp the cannon. Whether it's efficient or not, in that situation the character that can heal others needs to heal the unconscious or low-hp target, not take a chance on a GB, no matter the fact that on paper damage is theoretically "better." And the cleric is likely the only character that has that capacity, regardless of how awesome their other options for that spell slot might be.
As for "widely thought"... well, as we've seen, depends on which crowd you ask. I've never heard much praise for it, either on the forums or in person.
First of all, Shield specifies that you use it "WHEN HIT BY AN ATTACK," not when targeted, so even if they don't tell you the roll, you know if it hit or not. So, unless you're using it completely incorrectly, you definitely know if they hit you. In fact, you CAN'T EVEN CAST IT ON A MISS IF YOU WANTED TO. This is a case of people trying to impose real-world logic without actually reading the rules.
Second, unless you're talking about 2nd-level only, Sorcerers are definitely not using their SP to regain spell slots. They're using Metamagic, which, you know, is sort of the entire point of the class? I'm going to Twin a spell, rather than recover the spell slot. Not only will it give me better action economy, it'll even cost less SP.
Third, I'm not actually comparing healing to damage as much as to effects. I'd rather prevent damage through effects than recover it through healing. For example, Cure Wounds heals 1d8+MOD, let's say +3 MOD, so 7.5 average. A CR 2 Ankheg does 13 damage and grapples the target with its Bite attack. I'd rather spend my 1st-level slot on a Shield to block that 13 damage and prevent the grapple, than heal a little over half of it. Even better, I can use it for Sleep or Tasha's Hideous Laughter to incapacitate it, and prevent it from hitting me, or my allies. In each case, I spent the same resource of a 1st-level spell, and in one case only used a reaction instead of an action. Of all of these three choices, Cure Wounds prevented the least damage, and was the only one to prevent a Grapple. Also, you said that "preventing damage" doesn't work against a single enemy, but it actually works best against a single enemy. You seem to already understand using AoEs to prevent damage from a lot of enemies, so I'll leave that out here.
You also say that you should heal "unconscious or low-hp" targets. If they are unconscious, definitely. That's why I'll PREPARE a Healing Word/Cure Wounds, and maybe take Spare the Dying. On a low-hp target, no. Say the Fighter has 2 HP left. I cast Cure Wounds, now he has 10 HP (I even rounded the average up). Now it's the Ankheg's turn; it deals 13 damage, knocking him unconscious. What would have happened if I didn't heal him? He'd have been knocked unconscious. Is it just me, or did my spell slot do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING?! Maybe I should have used Tasha's Hideous Laughter to prevent it from attacking, so that the Fighter would still have those 2 HP?
You can pretty much always use a spell slot to prevent more damage than you could heal with the same level of slot; the examples above are just at first level. By the way, I'm advocating that healing is bad, not that Guiding Bolt is the spell to replace it with, in case that isn't clear. (Also, I used first level spells because that was easy, and the Ankheg was the first CR 1-2 creature I found flipping through the MM).
Also, you say that "healing is needed," but is it really needed for someone to cast healing magic? Here's some alternative healing methods:
The Fighter can heal for 1d10+level himself with Second Wind every Short Rest.
Paladins get Lay on Hands for 5*level divided as they wish each day.
Healing Potions are the most common Potions out there, and are available in nearly every campaign.
The Inspiring Leader feat (which is totally broken btw) gives the ENTIRE PARTY CHA+level Temp. HP EACH EVERY SHORT REST.
The Healer feat let's you heal each party member 1d6+4+level each once per long rest, and gives them back 1 HP when you stabilize someone.
Each of these is significantly more efficient than magical healing, and make spells like Cure Wounds absolutely useless. Having a designated "healer" is totally pointless.
Also, "As for "widely thought"... well, as we've seen, depends on which crowd you ask. I've never heard much praise for it, either on the forums or in person." is the most accurate statement ever in the DnD community lol. It always seems like just when you think something becomes fact, you go to a new forum and it's a completely novel idea all of a sudden. Just thought that was funny haha.
tactics could get a little wonky because of initiative but..
rogue could go mastermind. Uses action to attack with very possible advantage due to guiding bolt from divine soul. Use bonus action to use help action and set up advantage again for follow up guiding bolts.
order domain cleric can cast bless on the party. Targets self for concentration, rogue to increase on turn and off turn sneak attack chance, and divine soul to further increase odds of guiding bolt landing. Choose rogue for the reaction attack. Can switch modes of offense to target saves if necessary to ensure rogue gains sneak attack, can utilize healing word as bonus action to weaponize voice of authority. Voice of authority feature also doesn’t differentiate between buffs and harmful spells, so cleric could also potentially target enemies and the rogue with an AOE. Flame strike would be decent for AOE capability as well as giving the rogue a high chance to ignore the damage while still using their reaction attack. High risk high reward.
divine soul sorcerer casts guiding bolt with a decent likelihood of hitting due to possible buffs, or a use of the “favored by the gods” feature to ensure the cycle of death continues or gets started.
this all can change depending on initiative, but once it starts it seems to be a relatively low resource intensive way to drastically increase offense by increasing likely hoods off all attacks landing as well as off turn sneak attack. the flame strike and lightning arrow spells could be used with the same tactics for when big bads come to play.
the ranger could potentially jump in with a hail of thrones or lightning arrow depending on level and initiative.
1. Go eat a snickers, god damn. You are getting far too agitated over a different opinion.
2. Your paladin example is asinine when you are insisting about talking about first level sorcerers. If you are being pitted against a creature with 20 ac and +5 as their lowest save while the party is level 1 then the table has other problems. Either that or the party is supposed to lose the fight or run away.
3. Every single spell has a particular stat that it targets. If the target has high ac and high saves then every course of action has difficulty. Congrats on finding the situation where the logical course of action is Magic Missile. Oh, but what if that 20 ac paladin with +5 as his lowest save took one level in hexblade and has access to shield?? Guess magic missile is as screwed as the rest of the options. Your entire argument essentially boils down to "what about this specific unreasonable scenario for low level characters?" So might as well toss shield on there.
4. The difference is largely a matter of opinion. The reason i dislike magic missile is not because it isnt a good spell but rather because it is boring af. Auto damage is unengaging because there is no risk. No risk means no reward. Not in the numbers sense, you very much are doing an average of 10.5 force damage, i mean in how the game PLAYS. I would rather use my brain to decide which spell i want to use on a specific target, instead of the dm calling on me and just robotically saying "i do 10.5 damage, end of turn". Magic Missile isnt playing the game, it is reducing a number on the page whenever a timer goes off. No thanks.
5. For comparing chances of success, i still have yet to see anyone reasonably factor the shield spell into magic missile's usefulness. Sure, casters are less common, especially at low levels... but so are high ac. You decry that 13 is enough to make attack rolls at lvl1 useless, but we still have a 60% chance of hitting that, that is a solid percentage.
6. Sorcerers have up to 15 spells to work with. That is enough for several damage options, some control options, some defense options, some utility options AND some fluff options. Even without considering the extensive overlap some spells provide (like levitate being a defense, utility and control spell rolled into one) you have spots for 3 spells in each of those categories, including fluff. If you find it so terribly limiting, the perhaps sorcerer is not a good fit for class.
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First of all, Shield specifies that you use it "WHEN HIT BY AN ATTACK," not when targeted, so even if they don't tell you the roll, you know if it hit or not. So, unless you're using it completely incorrectly, you definitely know if they hit you. In fact, you CAN'T EVEN CAST IT ON A MISS IF YOU WANTED TO. This is a case of people trying to impose real-world logic without actually reading the rules.
Second, unless you're talking about 2nd-level only, Sorcerers are definitely not using their SP to regain spell slots. They're using Metamagic, which, you know, is sort of the entire point of the class? I'm going to Twin a spell, rather than recover the spell slot. Not only will it give me better action economy, it'll even cost less SP.
Third, I'm not actually comparing healing to damage as much as to effects. I'd rather prevent damage through effects than recover it through healing. For example, Cure Wounds heals 1d8+MOD, let's say +3 MOD, so 7.5 average. A CR 2 Ankheg does 13 damage and grapples the target with its Bite attack. I'd rather spend my 1st-level slot on a Shield to block that 13 damage and prevent the grapple, than heal a little over half of it. Even better, I can use it for Sleep or Tasha's Hideous Laughter to incapacitate it, and prevent it from hitting me, or my allies. In each case, I spent the same resource of a 1st-level spell, and in one case only used a reaction instead of an action. Of all of these three choices, Cure Wounds prevented the least damage, and was the only one to prevent a Grapple. Also, you said that "preventing damage" doesn't work against a single enemy, but it actually works best against a single enemy. You seem to already understand using AoEs to prevent damage from a lot of enemies, so I'll leave that out here.
You also say that you should heal "unconscious or low-hp" targets. If they are unconscious, definitely. That's why I'll PREPARE a Healing Word/Cure Wounds, and maybe take Spare the Dying. On a low-hp target, no. Say the Fighter has 2 HP left. I cast Cure Wounds, now he has 10 HP (I even rounded the average up). Now it's the Ankheg's turn; it deals 13 damage, knocking him unconscious. What would have happened if I didn't heal him? He'd have been knocked unconscious. Is it just me, or did my spell slot do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING?! Maybe I should have used Tasha's Hideous Laughter to prevent it from attacking, so that the Fighter would still have those 2 HP?
You can pretty much always use a spell slot to prevent more damage than you could heal with the same level of slot; the examples above are just at first level. By the way, I'm advocating that healing is bad, not that Guiding Bolt is the spell to replace it with, in case that isn't clear. (Also, I used first level spells because that was easy, and the Ankheg was the first CR 1-2 creature I found flipping through the MM).
Also, you say that "healing is needed," but is it really needed for someone to cast healing magic? Here's some alternative healing methods:
Each of these is significantly more efficient than magical healing, and make spells like Cure Wounds absolutely useless. Having a designated "healer" is totally pointless.
Also, "As for "widely thought"... well, as we've seen, depends on which crowd you ask. I've never heard much praise for it, either on the forums or in person." is the most accurate statement ever in the DnD community lol. It always seems like just when you think something becomes fact, you go to a new forum and it's a completely novel idea all of a sudden. Just thought that was funny haha.
tactics could get a little wonky because of initiative but..
rogue could go mastermind. Uses action to attack with very possible advantage due to guiding bolt from divine soul. Use bonus action to use help action and set up advantage again for follow up guiding bolts.
order domain cleric can cast bless on the party. Targets self for concentration, rogue to increase on turn and off turn sneak attack chance, and divine soul to further increase odds of guiding bolt landing. Choose rogue for the reaction attack. Can switch modes of offense to target saves if necessary to ensure rogue gains sneak attack, can utilize healing word as bonus action to weaponize voice of authority. Voice of authority feature also doesn’t differentiate between buffs and harmful spells, so cleric could also potentially target enemies and the rogue with an AOE. Flame strike would be decent for AOE capability as well as giving the rogue a high chance to ignore the damage while still using their reaction attack. High risk high reward.
divine soul sorcerer casts guiding bolt with a decent likelihood of hitting due to possible buffs, or a use of the “favored by the gods” feature to ensure the cycle of death continues or gets started.
this all can change depending on initiative, but once it starts it seems to be a relatively low resource intensive way to drastically increase offense by increasing likely hoods off all attacks landing as well as off turn sneak attack. the flame strike and lightning arrow spells could be used with the same tactics for when big bads come to play.
the ranger could potentially jump in with a hail of thrones or lightning arrow depending on level and initiative.
1. Go eat a snickers, god damn. You are getting far too agitated over a different opinion.
2. Your paladin example is asinine when you are insisting about talking about first level sorcerers. If you are being pitted against a creature with 20 ac and +5 as their lowest save while the party is level 1 then the table has other problems. Either that or the party is supposed to lose the fight or run away.
3. Every single spell has a particular stat that it targets. If the target has high ac and high saves then every course of action has difficulty. Congrats on finding the situation where the logical course of action is Magic Missile. Oh, but what if that 20 ac paladin with +5 as his lowest save took one level in hexblade and has access to shield?? Guess magic missile is as screwed as the rest of the options. Your entire argument essentially boils down to "what about this specific unreasonable scenario for low level characters?" So might as well toss shield on there.
4. The difference is largely a matter of opinion. The reason i dislike magic missile is not because it isnt a good spell but rather because it is boring af. Auto damage is unengaging because there is no risk. No risk means no reward. Not in the numbers sense, you very much are doing an average of 10.5 force damage, i mean in how the game PLAYS. I would rather use my brain to decide which spell i want to use on a specific target, instead of the dm calling on me and just robotically saying "i do 10.5 damage, end of turn". Magic Missile isnt playing the game, it is reducing a number on the page whenever a timer goes off. No thanks.
5. For comparing chances of success, i still have yet to see anyone reasonably factor the shield spell into magic missile's usefulness. Sure, casters are less common, especially at low levels... but so are high ac. You decry that 13 is enough to make attack rolls at lvl1 useless, but we still have a 60% chance of hitting that, that is a solid percentage.
6. Sorcerers have up to 15 spells to work with. That is enough for several damage options, some control options, some defense options, some utility options AND some fluff options. Even without considering the extensive overlap some spells provide (like levitate being a defense, utility and control spell rolled into one) you have spots for 3 spells in each of those categories, including fluff. If you find it so terribly limiting, the perhaps sorcerer is not a good fit for class.