I'm trying to optimize a rogue/assassin and monk/way of the shadows(?). The race is but the goal for this character is to create an almost "pet" for the ranger while they go into a separate architype instead of beast master. The campaign starts at level one but any advice on level by level choices would be greatly appreciated.
If you're playing a "pet" to another character, a small and dumb kobold or goblin would be a good thematic choice? Or a druid splash to spend as much time as possible as a small creature who nevertheless has monk-scaled unarmed strikes.... but that's probably a little complicated and inefficient :)
The most important thing to remember is that unarmed strikes are not elligible to apply Sneak Attack. It isn't actually a big problem, because a Dagger is an easy-to-carry weapon that is both Finesse (Sneak Attack eligible) and a Monk Weapon (eligible to use the Monk's damage dice progression), and since you only get one Sneak Attack per round no matter how many attacks you make, it isn't a big deal to make your regular Attack Action attacks with your Dagger, and then use Unarmed Strikes for your Bonus Action attack(s).
Considerations:
Starting as a Rogue at level 1 gives you four skills and thieves tools, but no extra skills from multiclassing Monk. Starting as Monk at level 1 gives you two skills, plus one artisan tool or musical instrument, and then multiclassing Rogue will give you a third skill, and thieves tools. Basically... Rogue at 1 gives you an extra skill, or Monk at 1 gives you an extra musical instrument/artisan tool.
Starting as a Rogue at level 1 gives you Dex and Intelligence as your proficient saves (at least, until you hit Monk 14). Starting as a Monk gives you Strength and Dex as your proficient saves (until Monk 14). Dex saves are common, but Strength and Intelligence saves much less so. Strength is probably the more useful of the two (helping you avoid spell and monster effects that grapple, push, or knock you down).
Feats are unlikely to be very important to this character. Monk AC is already good, so you don't really need Dual Wielder for +1 AC, nor are you ever going to want to make a Two Weapon Fighting bonus attack anyway. Rogue Uncanny Dodge already gives you a great use of your reaction, so you're unlikely to want Defensive Duelist, though you'll be eligible for it while holding a dagger. Tavern Brawler isn't that useful for a Monk, and especially not a strength-based one, and everything else... just all kind of niche, as a basic Shadow Monk/Assassin I don't see anything there that makes you much better at your core role, which is nice, because we'll feel less guilty about taking ASI's to pump your stats directly.
There aren't a lot of build considerations, considering you already know your two classes and subclasses that you want. You're starting at level 1, so theory crafting a level 20 character won't really help you much either. Instead, for the first five levels I'd say:
Start at Monk 1, because proficiency in Strength saves will be much more useful over your life than Intelligence saves, even if it does mean losing 1 skill proficiency (but at least you can learn Flute!)
Immediately multi in Rogue at level 2 (Monk 1/Rogue 1), because it will pick you up Expertise (Stealth very much recommended, probably Thieves Tools or Perception or Athletics or Acrobatics for the second one), and give you a 1d6 sneak attack once per round.
From here, you should pick one class or the other to get to 4. Monk does a much better job of giving you a steady drip of new features and resources, while Rogue will really just lead to increasing your sneak attack damage.... like, the Assassinate ability will be very difficult to actually ever use, if you aren't already a Shadow Monk. So I'd recommend leaving Rogue at 1 for a while...
At Monk 2/Rogue 1, you now have two ki points! Don't waste it in fights on a Flurry of Blows, one or two extra d4 attacks won't really increase your damage output much, but can be incredibly effective at letting you Dodge to survive a tough round, or Dash to deliver yourself to an important location at the start of combat.
At Monk 3/Rogue 1, you're a ninja! Darkness or Silence can be real game changers in a combat, or Pass without Trace can be a real game changer in a stealth mission for you or the party, so even more reason to save your Ki and not be wasting it on Flurry of Blows, or the dash or disengage unless there's a real and present need. As you level up and build up a larger Ki pool,
At Monk 4/Rogue 1, you pick up an ASI. Use this to bump your Dex up a tier, not your Wisdom, because Shadow Monks honestly really don't care about Wisdom for anything other than Stunning Strike DC (and AC, which Dex does just as well). Depending on your race, if only 1 Dex was needed to bump you up a tier, perfectly acceptable to use the other +1 on Wisdom or Con.
Over the next few levels, I'd encourage:
Monk 5/Rogue 1 be your next level, because two attacks per attack action will give you twice as many chances to land a Sneak Attack with your dagger, and also bump that dagger and your unarmed strikes up to 1d6, and unlock Stunning Strike, and provide more valuable Ki points. Far more bang for your buck than Rogue 2 would provide (just Cunning Action, to give you a Bonus Action Disengage, Bonus Hide, or a ki-free Bonus Dash).
Once you've reached Monk 6/Rogue 1 (will we ever take a Rogue level?) gets you your shadow teleport, very important to eventually being able to land an Assassinate. This is the last mandatory Monk level for a Shadow Monk, though to peek ahead, I'd ultimately recommend in a 20 level build that you take at least 14 Monk levels.
Following that, Monk 6/Rogue 2 gets you the afforementioned Cunning Action, for some more flexible Bonus Action choices.
Monk 6/Rogue 3 gets you Assassinate! Because you waited to unlock this until you learned Shadow Step, you have a real reliable way to actually surprise enemies, which many DMs often don't provide a lot of opportunities to do. Your sneak attack is also 2d6. This is the last mandatory Rogue level for an Assassin, though to peek ahead, I'd ultimately recommend in a 20 level build that you take 6 Rogue levels
That should be more than enough to get you started, from 1st level through 9th. The order that you take class levels after that is less important, you have enough Ki to be flexible with your use of Monk abilities, and you have enough Sneak Attack dice to make sneak attacking worthwhile. Use your ASI's at Monk 8 and 12 and Rogue 4 to max Dexterity first, and Wisdom (or constitution if you don't care about AC) next, avoiding other Feats as unncessary. Expertise in Stealth, Thieves Tools, Perception, Acrobatics, and Athletics are all useful for a solo ninja type. If you want to be really funky with your build, give up on maxing Wisdom or Con, and instead spread some love to Charisma, splashing 2 levels of Warlock to give yourself Devil's Sight (which makes Darknessmuch much much more important for you in Combat.
Shadow Monk is a very fun character to play, and synergizes not only with Assassin but also with Warlock, Shadow Sorcerer, Gloomstalker... there's few ways to go wrong, just stick with Monk until you have at least 6 levels under your belt.
If you're playing a "pet" to another character, a small and dumb kobold or goblin would be a good thematic choice? Or a druid splash to spend as much time as possible as a small creature who nevertheless has monk-scaled unarmed strikes.... but that's probably a little complicated and inefficient :)
The most important thing to remember is that unarmed strikes are not elligible to apply Sneak Attack. It isn't actually a big problem, because a Dagger is an easy-to-carry weapon that is both Finesse (Sneak Attack eligible) and a Monk Weapon (eligible to use the Monk's damage dice progression), and since you only get one Sneak Attack per round no matter how many attacks you make, it isn't a big deal to make your regular Attack Action attacks with your Dagger, and then use Unarmed Strikes for your Bonus Action attack(s).
Considerations:
Starting as a Rogue at level 1 gives you four skills and thieves tools, but no extra skills from multiclassing Monk. Starting as Monk at level 1 gives you two skills, plus one artisan tool or musical instrument, and then multiclassing Rogue will give you a third skill, and thieves tools. Basically... Rogue at 1 gives you an extra skill, or Monk at 1 gives you an extra musical instrument/artisan tool.
Starting as a Rogue at level 1 gives you Dex and Intelligence as your proficient saves (at least, until you hit Monk 14). Starting as a Monk gives you Strength and Dex as your proficient saves (until Monk 14). Dex saves are common, but Strength and Intelligence saves much less so. Strength is probably the more useful of the two (helping you avoid spell and monster effects that grapple, push, or knock you down).
Feats are unlikely to be very important to this character. Monk AC is already good, so you don't really need Dual Wielder for +1 AC, nor are you ever going to want to make a Two Weapon Fighting bonus attack anyway. Rogue Uncanny Dodge already gives you a great use of your reaction, so you're unlikely to want Defensive Duelist, though you'll be eligible for it while holding a dagger. Tavern Brawler isn't that useful for a Monk, and especially not a strength-based one, and everything else... just all kind of niche, as a basic Shadow Monk/Assassin I don't see anything there that makes you much better at your core role, which is nice, because we'll feel less guilty about taking ASI's to pump your stats directly.
There aren't a lot of build considerations, considering you already know your two classes and subclasses that you want. You're starting at level 1, so theory crafting a level 20 character won't really help you much either. Instead, for the first five levels I'd say:
Start at Monk 1, because proficiency in Strength saves will be much more useful over your life than Intelligence saves, even if it does mean losing 1 skill proficiency (but at least you can learn Flute!)
Immediately multi in Rogue at level 2 (Monk 1/Rogue 1), because it will pick you up Expertise (Stealth very much recommended, probably Thieves Tools or Perception or Athletics or Acrobatics for the second one), and give you a 1d6 sneak attack once per round.
From here, you should pick one class or the other to get to 4. Monk does a much better job of giving you a steady drip of new features and resources, while Rogue will really just lead to increasing your sneak attack damage.... like, the Assassinate ability will be very difficult to actually ever use, if you aren't already a Shadow Monk. So I'd recommend leaving Rogue at 1 for a while...
At Monk 2/Rogue 1, you now have two ki points! Don't waste it in fights on a Flurry of Blows, one or two extra d4 attacks won't really increase your damage output much, but can be incredibly effective at letting you Dodge to survive a tough round, or Dash to deliver yourself to an important location at the start of combat.
At Monk 3/Rogue 1, you're a ninja! Darkness or Silence can be real game changers in a combat, or Pass without Trace can be a real game changer in a stealth mission for you or the party, so even more reason to save your Ki and not be wasting it on Flurry of Blows, or the dash or disengage unless there's a real and present need. As you level up and build up a larger Ki pool,
At Monk 4/Rogue 1, you pick up an ASI. Use this to bump your Dex up a tier, not your Wisdom, because Shadow Monks honestly really don't care about Wisdom for anything other than Stunning Strike DC (and AC, which Dex does just as well). Depending on your race, if only 1 Dex was needed to bump you up a tier, perfectly acceptable to use the other +1 on Wisdom or Con.
Over the next few levels, I'd encourage:
Monk 5/Rogue 1 be your next level, because two attacks per attack action will give you twice as many chances to land a Sneak Attack with your dagger, and also bump that dagger and your unarmed strikes up to 1d6, and unlock Stunning Strike, and provide more valuable Ki points. Far more bang for your buck than Rogue 2 would provide (just Cunning Action, to give you a Bonus Action Disengage, Bonus Hide, or a ki-free Bonus Dash).
Once you've reached Monk 6/Rogue 1 (will we ever take a Rogue level?) gets you your shadow teleport, very important to eventually being able to land an Assassinate. This is the last mandatory Monk level for a Shadow Monk, though to peek ahead, I'd ultimately recommend in a 20 level build that you take at least 14 Monk levels.
Following that, Monk 6/Rogue 2 gets you the afforementioned Cunning Action, for some more flexible Bonus Action choices.
Monk 6/Rogue 3 gets you Assassinate! Because you waited to unlock this until you learned Shadow Step, you have a real reliable way to actually surprise enemies, which many DMs often don't provide a lot of opportunities to do. Your sneak attack is also 2d6. This is the last mandatory Rogue level for an Assassin, though to peek ahead, I'd ultimately recommend in a 20 level build that you take 6 Rogue levels
That should be more than enough to get you started, from 1st level through 9th. The order that you take class levels after that is less important, you have enough Ki to be flexible with your use of Monk abilities, and you have enough Sneak Attack dice to make sneak attacking worthwhile. Use your ASI's at Monk 8 and 12 and Rogue 4 to max Dexterity first, and Wisdom (or constitution if you don't care about AC) next, avoiding other Feats as unncessary. Expertise in Stealth, Thieves Tools, Perception, Acrobatics, and Athletics are all useful for a solo ninja type. If you want to be really funky with your build, give up on maxing Wisdom or Con, and instead spread some love to Charisma, splashing 2 levels of Warlock to give yourself Devil's Sight (which makes Darknessmuch much much more important for you in Combat.
Shadow Monk is a very fun character to play, and synergizes not only with Assassin but also with Warlock, Shadow Sorcerer, Gloomstalker... there's few ways to go wrong, just stick with Monk until you have at least 6 levels under your belt.
Do keep in mind that monks can use a shortsword, which does get a die upgrade from dagger. It's not a big upgrade (d4 to d6) but is better when you aren't concerned about throwing the weapon or possibly with the optics or the difficulty of hiding a dagger vs hiding a shortsword. The difference is only an average of 1 damage per hit, but fully optimizing damage would be with a shortsword.
Also pay attention to the differences between Cunning Action and your ki point abilities. Both can disengage and dash but cunning action doesn't use ki points. It will be the default for the usage of those as a bonus action, unless you need the jump distance increase. Cunning action can also hide, which might be very useful for your build and Patient Defense gives you the dodge that Chicken Champ mentioned. It might be worth it to get rogue 2 before moving on if you feel like you'd prefer cunning action usage earlier, but that does mean you will be delaying your first ASI to 6 or delaying your other monk abilities until at least 5. Consider carefully before making that call, since Chicken Champ's suggestion does seem like an excellent plan.
Edit: I'll second the idea of using a Kobold. Pack Tactics will give you advantage very frequently in many encounters. While the conditions for Pack Tactics to be turned on would enable sneak attack on any other race, having advantage still increases your hit and crit rates.
It does come with sunlight sensitivity, but that can be role played into the shadow monk aspect of the character. If that is a possibility, you may want to consider Mastermind instead of Assassin. While it works diminish your first strike ability some, it could play into your "pet" motif some and allow you to help from range and contribute while in sunlight (if that's a concern).
On the other hand, Goblin doesn't have sunlight sensitivity, gives most of cunning action as a racial trait, and does have a small damage increase once per rest to squeeze out that little bit of extra damage.
Playing this and currently level 10, it's pretty fun you can be an excellent rogue and mobile striker. With mobile you just run in and wreak havoc on whatever you want to do them you can run or shadow step back out of harm's way. No one can ever catch you which is nice if things go bad, you have excellent sneakiness between shadowstep and stealth. I used shortsword until my martial arts die equaled it's damage then dumped it. The layout makes ASI's pretty far between but it's been very effective for me.
Point buy 8, 15, 15, 10, 15, 8
1st level- Monk 1, UA warforged darkwood core, integrated thieves tools, add 1 point to dex (16) and wis (16)
2nd level- monk 2
3rd level- monk 3, shadow archetype
4th level- monk 4, ASI Mobile
5th level- monk 5
6th level- monk 6
7th level- rogue 1, insight, exp in stealth and perception
8th level- rogue 2
9th level- rogue 3, assassin archetype
10th level- rogue 4, ASI Dex (18)
11th level- rogue 5
12th level- rogue 6, exp in insight and sleight of hand
With Rogues getting Bonus Action disengage at level 2, and with Monks having Bonus Action Dodge at level 2, and Shadow Monks being able to teleport away as a bonus (if in dim light or darkness) at level 6... I think that the Mobile feature that protects you from OAs actually has less utility on this build than it would on most other mobile strikers. Still, I do love the +10 move speed... but mobility isn’t really the weak point of a monk/rogue, and a shadow monk in particular.
The advantage with taking Mobile is you don't have to use any resources as long as you've made an attack you can simply walk away and they can't strike you. Preserving your bonus action to use for other fun stuff. The extra movement makes an already very speedy character ridiculously so. That guard that ran to get help, yeah he's not getting away, need to get across the room and snatch something before anyone else, piece of cake. I continually taunt melee opponents by just running up and punching them in the face 3 or 4 times then running out of their range of movement.
Right, I’m just saying that playstyle is already something that character can do without the feat, so I’m not sure it’s worth putting an ASI off for being only slightly better at it.
Hey y'all
I'm trying to optimize a rogue/assassin and monk/way of the shadows(?). The race is but the goal for this character is to create an almost "pet" for the ranger while they go into a separate architype instead of beast master. The campaign starts at level one but any advice on level by level choices would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you
If you're playing a "pet" to another character, a small and dumb kobold or goblin would be a good thematic choice? Or a druid splash to spend as much time as possible as a small creature who nevertheless has monk-scaled unarmed strikes.... but that's probably a little complicated and inefficient :)
The most important thing to remember is that unarmed strikes are not elligible to apply Sneak Attack. It isn't actually a big problem, because a Dagger is an easy-to-carry weapon that is both Finesse (Sneak Attack eligible) and a Monk Weapon (eligible to use the Monk's damage dice progression), and since you only get one Sneak Attack per round no matter how many attacks you make, it isn't a big deal to make your regular Attack Action attacks with your Dagger, and then use Unarmed Strikes for your Bonus Action attack(s).
Considerations:
That should be more than enough to get you started, from 1st level through 9th. The order that you take class levels after that is less important, you have enough Ki to be flexible with your use of Monk abilities, and you have enough Sneak Attack dice to make sneak attacking worthwhile. Use your ASI's at Monk 8 and 12 and Rogue 4 to max Dexterity first, and Wisdom (or constitution if you don't care about AC) next, avoiding other Feats as unncessary. Expertise in Stealth, Thieves Tools, Perception, Acrobatics, and Athletics are all useful for a solo ninja type. If you want to be really funky with your build, give up on maxing Wisdom or Con, and instead spread some love to Charisma, splashing 2 levels of Warlock to give yourself Devil's Sight (which makes Darkness much much much more important for you in Combat.
Shadow Monk is a very fun character to play, and synergizes not only with Assassin but also with Warlock, Shadow Sorcerer, Gloomstalker... there's few ways to go wrong, just stick with Monk until you have at least 6 levels under your belt.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Do keep in mind that monks can use a shortsword, which does get a die upgrade from dagger. It's not a big upgrade (d4 to d6) but is better when you aren't concerned about throwing the weapon or possibly with the optics or the difficulty of hiding a dagger vs hiding a shortsword. The difference is only an average of 1 damage per hit, but fully optimizing damage would be with a shortsword.
Also pay attention to the differences between Cunning Action and your ki point abilities. Both can disengage and dash but cunning action doesn't use ki points. It will be the default for the usage of those as a bonus action, unless you need the jump distance increase. Cunning action can also hide, which might be very useful for your build and Patient Defense gives you the dodge that Chicken Champ mentioned. It might be worth it to get rogue 2 before moving on if you feel like you'd prefer cunning action usage earlier, but that does mean you will be delaying your first ASI to 6 or delaying your other monk abilities until at least 5. Consider carefully before making that call, since Chicken Champ's suggestion does seem like an excellent plan.
Edit: I'll second the idea of using a Kobold. Pack Tactics will give you advantage very frequently in many encounters. While the conditions for Pack Tactics to be turned on would enable sneak attack on any other race, having advantage still increases your hit and crit rates.
It does come with sunlight sensitivity, but that can be role played into the shadow monk aspect of the character. If that is a possibility, you may want to consider Mastermind instead of Assassin. While it works diminish your first strike ability some, it could play into your "pet" motif some and allow you to help from range and contribute while in sunlight (if that's a concern).
On the other hand, Goblin doesn't have sunlight sensitivity, gives most of cunning action as a racial trait, and does have a small damage increase once per rest to squeeze out that little bit of extra damage.
Playing this and currently level 10, it's pretty fun you can be an excellent rogue and mobile striker. With mobile you just run in and wreak havoc on whatever you want to do them you can run or shadow step back out of harm's way. No one can ever catch you which is nice if things go bad, you have excellent sneakiness between shadowstep and stealth. I used shortsword until my martial arts die equaled it's damage then dumped it. The layout makes ASI's pretty far between but it's been very effective for me.
Point buy 8, 15, 15, 10, 15, 8
1st level- Monk 1, UA warforged darkwood core, integrated thieves tools, add 1 point to dex (16) and wis (16)
2nd level- monk 2
3rd level- monk 3, shadow archetype
4th level- monk 4, ASI Mobile
5th level- monk 5
6th level- monk 6
7th level- rogue 1, insight, exp in stealth and perception
8th level- rogue 2
9th level- rogue 3, assassin archetype
10th level- rogue 4, ASI Dex (18)
11th level- rogue 5
12th level- rogue 6, exp in insight and sleight of hand
13th level- monk 7
14th level- monk 8, ASI Dex (20)
15th level- monk 9
16th level- monk 10
17th level- monk 11
18th level- monk 12, ASI Alert
19th level- monk 13
20th level- monk 14
With Rogues getting Bonus Action disengage at level 2, and with Monks having Bonus Action Dodge at level 2, and Shadow Monks being able to teleport away as a bonus (if in dim light or darkness) at level 6... I think that the Mobile feature that protects you from OAs actually has less utility on this build than it would on most other mobile strikers. Still, I do love the +10 move speed... but mobility isn’t really the weak point of a monk/rogue, and a shadow monk in particular.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
The advantage with taking Mobile is you don't have to use any resources as long as you've made an attack you can simply walk away and they can't strike you. Preserving your bonus action to use for other fun stuff. The extra movement makes an already very speedy character ridiculously so. That guard that ran to get help, yeah he's not getting away, need to get across the room and snatch something before anyone else, piece of cake. I continually taunt melee opponents by just running up and punching them in the face 3 or 4 times then running out of their range of movement.
Right, I’m just saying that playstyle is already something that character can do without the feat, so I’m not sure it’s worth putting an ASI off for being only slightly better at it.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.