I am looking for opinions on whether buffing the party is better or worse than debuffing the enemy.
Comparing the effects of Faerie fire with Bane - I know that FF is an area effect and can potentially effect significantly more enemies, but assuming that the numbers are equal based on enemy positions and successful saving throws.
Which do you think is better for the party (advantage on party attacks or a penalty on enemy attacks) and why, which would you cast?
I would suggest debuff, as FF can affect allies too, making it good for the enemy team to use. Also, debuffs usually last longer in effect, and so they are more useful for a spell slot.
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So technically both FF and Bane are both technically debuffs since they affect the enemy. But using those 2 examples I think it'd depend on the scenario. If there are invisible enemies then FF for sure. If you're fighting high dex then do bane. If high wisdom then cast FF (lets say not metagaming but observance; are you fighting quicklings or clerics?)
Saving throws are easy to make with the right proficiencies and a not high DC so do your best to target a target's weaker save profs.
Also a side note but a more legit debate of buff or debuff would be bless or bane. Same effect but one buffs your friends with +d4 or hurts your enemies with -d4.
In that case I would almost always do bless only cuz it's a guarantee where the target can resist it. Only time I would think is a bunch of enemies with low +hit with many multi attacks and you'd potentially ruin 2x-4x attacks for 2-4 enemies each.. Which would add up on the damage reduction
That's an interesting one, bless isn't on the bard spell list though so that's why I took bane and faerie fire. I started out with Celestial Sorcerer for the Con save proficiency, seemed like a good idea. I could get Bless from that if I swapped out mage armour.
in the general sense, it's almost always buff over debuff since your allies don't attempt saving throws against your spells. It's possible to completely waste a debuff if all your targets save.
Generally speaking, buff>debuff. However, there are some interesting qualifiers that come into play. Bane debuffs the enemy's to hit and debuffs their ability to resist the party's forced saves. Thus if the enemy is made up of attackers and the party uses spells and features that force saves (like Sacred Flame, Toll the Dead, and Fireball), then Bane is a great option. If the enemy forces lots of saves and the party makes lots of attacks, then Bless is a better option. Faerie Fire is a mix of the two in that it benefits attackers, but the defensive effects of the spell are preventing invisible creatures to benefit from invisibility, essentially negating the advantage given from being an unseen attacker. I would probably place more benefit on Faerie Fire since advantage tends to be stronger than a d4 bonus, but each spell would have moments where it would shine above the others.
Edit: Buffs can penalty affect every enemy creature, though not necessarily every attack against those creatures. Debuffs won't necessarily affect every creature, but will affect almost every attack against affected creatures. Modify the attack expression to whatever the buff or debuff actually affects.
Debuffs are spells cast on the enemy, making them less dangerous. Example include both Bane that applies a penalty of 1d4 to their attacks, and Faerie Fire that makes it easier to hit them (advantage on anyone attacking them).
A Buff spell is cast on your allies, making them more dangerous. Examples include Bless that applies a bonus 1d4 to their attacks, and Invisibility that makes it harder to hit them (disadvantage on anyone that realizes where they are and attacks them).
The difference is that Debuffs require the opponent to fail a save, but helps all your allies, while Buffs have no save and only work on selected allies.
“Buff” is clearly being used to mean “enhance party’s offense”, while “debuff” is being used to mean “debuff enemy’s offense.” Relax.
Bless or Faerie Fire is a better buff than Bane for a party that mostly makes attacks. Bane is better than those for a party that mostly inflicts saves. In either event, the driving factor should usually be what helps your party make attacks, not what interferes with enemies attacks or helps you resist them, because your party landing damage is the most effective enemy mitigation out there.
Ours is a 3 man party, we also have a Vengeance Paladin and a GOO Warlock who relies on EB. So my tactic generally has been to use Bane at 2nd level, and then use Vicious Mockery on the main target which mostly prevents them hitting the Paladin who sits on a 19 AC. But our game on Monday had a large group of pirates, all drunk and sitting close together around a camp fire to avoid the cold. So I used faerie fire and was able to get 11 in the area of effect, and about 3/4 failed their save which was awesome. But the visuals of fighting at night against a group of dunk pirates, almost all glowing fluffy pink was just too much to resist. I cast it from surprise just before we charged in, so we had a round of them freaking out and thinking they were tripping just before hand which was hilarious. I was just a bit concerned about how much they were going to batter the paladin as there was too many for me to do the bane/vm combo. We totally kicked their butts though, one of the smoothest fights we have had, which got me thinking that it might be a better option for other fights.
So not relevant to the two spells noted in the initial post since they are both technically debuffs on the enemy, but I'm Surprised no one has mentioned that when you debuff an enemy ideally that enemy is dead before the duration of the debuff is over, If you buff your allies they keep the buff for the duration regardless of how many opponents they kill.
So not relevant to the two spells noted in the initial post since they are both technically debuffs on the enemy, but I'm Surprised no one has mentioned that when you debuff an enemy ideally that enemy is dead before the duration of the debuff is over, If you buff your allies they keep the buff for the duration regardless of how many opponents they kill.
Me as a DM: Ideally the PC is dead before the duration of the buff is over.
So technically both FF and Bane are both technically debuffs since they affect the enemy.
Would you say more about this? (Buffs/Debuffs, Advantage, Disadvantage, the Target of the spell, the language of the spell) It almost seems lke a debuff to an enemy IS a buff to the party and vise versa
I feel like just the name "Bane" makes me think that it's going to a a debuff and it's a d4 roll subtracted attack rolls or saving throws and that affects the target, that one seems pretty obvious.
Faerie Fire is also tagged a debuff; it's probably disadvantageous to be lit up in pretty colors in combat; I guess that makes sense (again affects the target negatively, but what's at stake is advantge, which make Fairie Fire seem more ambigious, as to whether it ought to be a debuff to the target/enemy or a buff to the party).
Guiding Bolt's, mechinism for the buff/debuff part seems similar, to Faerie Fire: lit up and advantage on attacks them, but Guiding Bolt has the tags damge and buff - maybe the difference here is that the wording is "the next attack roll made against this target before the end of your next turn has advantage" (but that doesn't competely make sense to me - maybe it's because it's going by the subject of the sentence, eem that part of the sentence, but then Faerie Fire says "Any attack roll against an affected creature", so the subject is also something about the attack roll ). I think there are others spells that are tagged buff or debuff that doesn't seem to follow much oaf a pattern that I can discern, although I feel like i might be missing something.
in the general sense, it's almost always buff over debuff since your allies don't attempt saving throws against your spells. It's possible to completely waste a debuff if all your targets save.
So is the difference for Faerie Fire and Guiding Bolt that Faerie Fire requires a saving throw and Guiding Bolt is one where you make a ranged attack roll? (both light up the target, so that it is more visible which imparts advantage on attacks against the target of the spell, but Faerie Fire is a debuff and Guiding Bolt is listed as a buff)
in the general sense, it's almost always buff over debuff since your allies don't attempt saving throws against your spells. It's possible to completely waste a debuff if all your targets save.
So is the difference for Faerie Fire and Guiding Bolt that Faerie Fire requires a saving throw and Guiding Bolt is one where you make a ranged attack roll? (both light up the target, so that it is more visible which imparts advantage on attacks against the target of the spell, but Faerie Fire is a debuff and Guiding Bolt is listed as a buff)
I wouldn’t personally classify Guiding Bolt as a buff spell; I’d call it a damage spell with a decent rider effect that is, strictly speaking, a buff but not really comparable to Faerie Fire. Faerie Fire has a minute duration whereas Guiding Bolt only gives advantage on the very next attack that occurs before the end of your next turn. For me, buffs are spells with a significant duration—a minute or more. Whoever made the tags disagrees. I can’t speak to their motivation or reasoning. I’d simply suggest the tags are not infallible *shrug*
in the general sense, it's almost always buff over debuff since your allies don't attempt saving throws against your spells. It's possible to completely waste a debuff if all your targets save.
So is the difference for Faerie Fire and Guiding Bolt that Faerie Fire requires a saving throw and Guiding Bolt is one where you make a ranged attack roll? (both light up the target, so that it is more visible which imparts advantage on attacks against the target of the spell, but Faerie Fire is a debuff and Guiding Bolt is listed as a buff)
I wouldn’t personally classify Guiding Bolt as a buff spell; I’d call it a damage spell with a decent rider effect that is, strictly speaking, a buff but not really comparable to Faerie Fire. Faerie Fire has a minute duration whereas Guiding Bolt only gives advantage on the very next attack that occurs before the end of your next turn. For me, buffs are spells with a significant duration—a minute or more. Whoever made the tags disagrees. I can’t speak to their motivation or reasoning. I’d simply suggest the tags are not infallible *shrug*
Of course Guiding Bolt is primarily a damage spell, but then I think that the rider of advantage on attacks against the target of the spell, would also need a tag (and I'm not sure that I agree that duration of the effect is relevant re: being tagged as a buff or debuff, or doesn't get a tag at all for the rider) . I think I would more want to call the advantage imparted by Guiding Bolt to a debuff, since it effectively causes a negative effect to the target of the spell, effectively, even though it's also tempting to want to call advantage a buff to the creature who gets advantage (but then they are not the target of the spell and consistancy with Faerie Fire . . . and as you say, maybe there isn't complete consistany when it comes to buff and debuff tags, or maybe I'm still missing something ).
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/169001-spell-tag-logic-for-buffing-you-allies-by?comment=2. It has also been suggested that the difference b/t Faerie Fire and Guiiding Bolt re: if the advantage against the target is a buff or debuff, has to do with the flavor and the wording of the spell (but then the wording of both seems to involve the targests being iluminated . . it's not just that your allies can visually follow the path of the Guiding Bolt to the target, the advantge is due to a dim light, on the target that seems to persist until the end of your next turn. It was also suggest that the way that Faerie Fire interacts with Invisibility, is puts it into the Buff category.
For simplicity’s sake, I’d suggest considering anything that you cast on your teammates without needing an attack roll and they don’t save against a buff whereas anything you cast on enemies that entails them getting a saving throw to resist the effect or you needing an attack roll to land the spell a debuff. Faerie Fire is a debuff because your targets had a chance to save against the effect even though the effect ultimately benefits your allies rather than penalizing your targets directly. Guiding Bolt I would also consider a debuff because you have to succeed on an attack roll even though the rider effect ultimately benefits your allies rather than penalizing the target directly. Buffs are spells like Haste, Bless, Aid, Longstrider i.e. spells that you just cast on your allies, no save or attack roll, that improve them in some way.
Really though, what difference does it make what tag any spell falls under? There is no mechanical consequence derived from DDB tags. They don’t even exist in the paper-based 5e materials.
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I am looking for opinions on whether buffing the party is better or worse than debuffing the enemy.
Comparing the effects of Faerie fire with Bane - I know that FF is an area effect and can potentially effect significantly more enemies, but assuming that the numbers are equal based on enemy positions and successful saving throws.
Which do you think is better for the party (advantage on party attacks or a penalty on enemy attacks) and why, which would you cast?
I would suggest debuff, as FF can affect allies too, making it good for the enemy team to use. Also, debuffs usually last longer in effect, and so they are more useful for a spell slot.
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I would usually suggest the party buff because offense (killing enemies quicker) is generally better than defense (staying alive longer) in 5E.
I'd go with FF. It can be used in situations other than combat.
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So technically both FF and Bane are both technically debuffs since they affect the enemy. But using those 2 examples I think it'd depend on the scenario. If there are invisible enemies then FF for sure. If you're fighting high dex then do bane. If high wisdom then cast FF (lets say not metagaming but observance; are you fighting quicklings or clerics?)
Saving throws are easy to make with the right proficiencies and a not high DC so do your best to target a target's weaker save profs.
Also a side note but a more legit debate of buff or debuff would be bless or bane. Same effect but one buffs your friends with +d4 or hurts your enemies with -d4.
In that case I would almost always do bless only cuz it's a guarantee where the target can resist it. Only time I would think is a bunch of enemies with low +hit with many multi attacks and you'd potentially ruin 2x-4x attacks for 2-4 enemies each.. Which would add up on the damage reduction
That's an interesting one, bless isn't on the bard spell list though so that's why I took bane and faerie fire. I started out with Celestial Sorcerer for the Con save proficiency, seemed like a good idea. I could get Bless from that if I swapped out mage armour.
Your bard should give you light armor prof so it shouldn't be too bad to swap out
Honestly, I agree with @Jesse_DND for two reasons.
1, he is right, and it it always better to kill them before they can make any more attacks
and
2, it makes the party feel supremely badass when they wipe the floor with the boss rather than a long drawn out combat involving lots of misses.
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in the general sense, it's almost always buff over debuff since your allies don't attempt saving throws against your spells. It's possible to completely waste a debuff if all your targets save.
Generally speaking, buff>debuff. However, there are some interesting qualifiers that come into play. Bane debuffs the enemy's to hit and debuffs their ability to resist the party's forced saves. Thus if the enemy is made up of attackers and the party uses spells and features that force saves (like Sacred Flame, Toll the Dead, and Fireball), then Bane is a great option. If the enemy forces lots of saves and the party makes lots of attacks, then Bless is a better option. Faerie Fire is a mix of the two in that it benefits attackers, but the defensive effects of the spell are preventing invisible creatures to benefit from invisibility, essentially negating the advantage given from being an unseen attacker. I would probably place more benefit on Faerie Fire since advantage tends to be stronger than a d4 bonus, but each spell would have moments where it would shine above the others.
Edit: Buffs can penalty affect every enemy creature, though not necessarily every attack against those creatures. Debuffs won't necessarily affect every creature, but will affect almost every attack against affected creatures. Modify the attack expression to whatever the buff or debuff actually affects.
BOTH OF THOSE SPELLS ARE DEBUFFS.
Debuffs are spells cast on the enemy, making them less dangerous. Example include both Bane that applies a penalty of 1d4 to their attacks, and Faerie Fire that makes it easier to hit them (advantage on anyone attacking them).
A Buff spell is cast on your allies, making them more dangerous. Examples include Bless that applies a bonus 1d4 to their attacks, and Invisibility that makes it harder to hit them (disadvantage on anyone that realizes where they are and attacks them).
The difference is that Debuffs require the opponent to fail a save, but helps all your allies, while Buffs have no save and only work on selected allies.
“Buff” is clearly being used to mean “enhance party’s offense”, while “debuff” is being used to mean “debuff enemy’s offense.” Relax.
Bless or Faerie Fire is a better buff than Bane for a party that mostly makes attacks. Bane is better than those for a party that mostly inflicts saves. In either event, the driving factor should usually be what helps your party make attacks, not what interferes with enemies attacks or helps you resist them, because your party landing damage is the most effective enemy mitigation out there.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Ours is a 3 man party, we also have a Vengeance Paladin and a GOO Warlock who relies on EB. So my tactic generally has been to use Bane at 2nd level, and then use Vicious Mockery on the main target which mostly prevents them hitting the Paladin who sits on a 19 AC. But our game on Monday had a large group of pirates, all drunk and sitting close together around a camp fire to avoid the cold. So I used faerie fire and was able to get 11 in the area of effect, and about 3/4 failed their save which was awesome. But the visuals of fighting at night against a group of dunk pirates, almost all glowing fluffy pink was just too much to resist. I cast it from surprise just before we charged in, so we had a round of them freaking out and thinking they were tripping just before hand which was hilarious. I was just a bit concerned about how much they were going to batter the paladin as there was too many for me to do the bane/vm combo. We totally kicked their butts though, one of the smoothest fights we have had, which got me thinking that it might be a better option for other fights.
So not relevant to the two spells noted in the initial post since they are both technically debuffs on the enemy, but I'm Surprised no one has mentioned that when you debuff an enemy ideally that enemy is dead before the duration of the debuff is over, If you buff your allies they keep the buff for the duration regardless of how many opponents they kill.
Me as a DM: Ideally the PC is dead before the duration of the buff is over.
Would you say more about this? (Buffs/Debuffs, Advantage, Disadvantage, the Target of the spell, the language of the spell) It almost seems lke a debuff to an enemy IS a buff to the party and vise versa
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roll subtracted attack rolls or saving throws and that affects the target, that one seems pretty obvious.
I feel like just the name "Bane" makes me think that it's going to a a debuff and it's a d4
Faerie Fire is also tagged a debuff; it's probably disadvantageous to be lit up in pretty colors in combat; I guess that makes sense (again affects the target negatively, but what's at stake is advantge, which make Fairie Fire seem more ambigious, as to whether it ought to be a debuff to the target/enemy or a buff to the party).
Guiding Bolt's, mechinism for the buff/debuff part seems similar, to Faerie Fire: lit up and advantage on attacks them, but Guiding Bolt has the tags damge and buff - maybe the difference here is that the wording is "the next attack roll made against this target before the end of your next turn has advantage" (but that doesn't competely make sense to me - maybe it's because it's going by the subject of the sentence, eem that part of the sentence, but then Faerie Fire says "Any attack roll against an affected creature", so the subject is also something about the attack roll ). I think there are others spells that are tagged buff or debuff that doesn't seem to follow much oaf a pattern that I can discern, although I feel like i might be missing something.
So is the difference for Faerie Fire and Guiding Bolt that Faerie Fire requires a saving throw and Guiding Bolt is one where you make a ranged attack roll? (both light up the target, so that it is more visible which imparts advantage on attacks against the target of the spell, but Faerie Fire is a debuff and Guiding Bolt is listed as a buff)
I wouldn’t personally classify Guiding Bolt as a buff spell; I’d call it a damage spell with a decent rider effect that is, strictly speaking, a buff but not really comparable to Faerie Fire. Faerie Fire has a minute duration whereas Guiding Bolt only gives advantage on the very next attack that occurs before the end of your next turn. For me, buffs are spells with a significant duration—a minute or more. Whoever made the tags disagrees. I can’t speak to their motivation or reasoning. I’d simply suggest the tags are not infallible *shrug*
Of course Guiding Bolt is primarily a damage spell, but then I think that the rider of advantage on attacks against the target of the spell, would also need a tag (and I'm not sure that I agree that duration of the effect is relevant re: being tagged as a buff or debuff, or doesn't get a tag at all for the rider) . I think I would more want to call the advantage imparted by Guiding Bolt to a debuff, since it effectively causes a negative effect to the target of the spell, effectively, even though it's also tempting to want to call advantage a buff to the creature who gets advantage (but then they are not the target of the spell and consistancy with Faerie Fire . . . and as you say, maybe there isn't complete consistany when it comes to buff and debuff tags, or maybe I'm still missing something ).
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/169001-spell-tag-logic-for-buffing-you-allies-by?comment=2. It has also been suggested that the difference b/t Faerie Fire and Guiiding Bolt re: if the advantage against the target is a buff or debuff, has to do with the flavor and the wording of the spell (but then the wording of both seems to involve the targests being iluminated . . it's not just that your allies can visually follow the path of the Guiding Bolt to the target, the advantge is due to a dim light, on the target that seems to persist until the end of your next turn. It was also suggest that the way that Faerie Fire interacts with Invisibility, is puts it into the Buff category.
For simplicity’s sake, I’d suggest considering anything that you cast on your teammates without needing an attack roll and they don’t save against a buff whereas anything you cast on enemies that entails them getting a saving throw to resist the effect or you needing an attack roll to land the spell a debuff. Faerie Fire is a debuff because your targets had a chance to save against the effect even though the effect ultimately benefits your allies rather than penalizing your targets directly. Guiding Bolt I would also consider a debuff because you have to succeed on an attack roll even though the rider effect ultimately benefits your allies rather than penalizing the target directly. Buffs are spells like Haste, Bless, Aid, Longstrider i.e. spells that you just cast on your allies, no save or attack roll, that improve them in some way.
Really though, what difference does it make what tag any spell falls under? There is no mechanical consequence derived from DDB tags. They don’t even exist in the paper-based 5e materials.