Joining a campaign at level 6 and im wanting to make a Harry Dresden clone/inspired character. At some point we all know he's going to have some levels in fey pact warlock but im stuck on the meat and potatoes, is he a wizard or sorcerer? I think either could work but im looking at the thematics more than "min/maxing" so for both possibilities. For wizard is he more evocation or divination? For sorcerer... I have no idea what subclass would fit, thoughts?
Harry is a wizard. It even says so in his ad in the Chicago yellow pages.
HARRY DRESDEN — WIZARD Lost Items Found. Paranormal Investigations. Consulting. Advice. Reasonable Rates. No Love Potions, Endless Purses, Parties or Other Entertainment
Also given the way his strengths are described in the books, I would say evocation over divination without any doubt. Evocation is described as "magic that creates powerful elemental effects such as bitter cold, searing flame, rolling thunder, crackling lightning, and burning acid." That certainly seems to fit a caster who uses "Forzare" and "Fuego" as his go-to spells more often than not.
Of course, he is also a gammer who plays a human barbarian, carries his dice in a crown royal bag and occasionally disrupts sessions by complaining about the way magic works in the rule books.... I am less sure how you would incorporate those aspects into your PC. Maybe creative background options?
Thats where I was leaning. Starting at level 6 should I go 6 wizard and go into the warlock later, or start out at 5/1 or 4/2 wizard and warlock? what spells should I take?
The nearest equivalent that you can get in D&D to what Harry is would be a plain old straight Wizard. He's probably an Evocation Wizard, but you could make a good case for an Abjuration Wizard. He uses that Shield Spell of his an awful lot. Still in all, he's mostly about the Kaboom kind of magic.
His powers come more from study and training. He's no Sorcerer. He went to school. He's quite proud of that. He's also proud of his ability to adjust to a wide variety of situations if given the time to prepare. That's much more the hallmark of a Wizard than a Sorcerer.
While Harry did indeed enter into a Pact with a Fey Queen, the powers and abilities of a Warlock have nothing at all to do with what he got from the deal. He surely didn't get anything close to the stuff a Fey Patron gives you.
His pact with Mab amounted to some new spells, and some Feats, like Durable, Tough, and Elemental Adept (Cold). He's a Wizard who can really take a beating. He gained a whole bunch of Strength, but I have no idea how you would simulate that in D&D. There's no single Feat that takes you from Average Strength (10) to what-ever it takes to lift the end of a car.
Int>Cha>Con>Dex>Str>Wis for stats. Yes, there's no mechanical need for high charisma, but you have to have to be good at insulting people and lying as Dresden. Dumpstat wisdom will hurt, as it hurts actual Harry in every goddamned book.
Wizard base, probably Evocation.
Multiclass into inquisitive Rogue for his PI persona.
Crossbow master/Gunslinger trait for his trusty revolver.
Probably warlock multiclass if you use the later books. As for patrons, depending on the time he worked with fiends, celestials and in current time it would be fey.
Harry is a wizard. It even says so in his ad in the Chicago yellow pages.
Yes, by that reasoning he'd be a Wizard. But given that his his initial magical ability was passed down through his bloodline, and some of his current power comes from pacts with more than one powerful entity, he's got elements of Sorcerer, Wizard AND Warlock.
His bloodline has nothing to do with his class. That's just background fluff.
He is in no way a Sorcerer.
That's like saying Michael is a Ranger.
It's extremely relevant. In 5E, a Wizard's magic comes purely from study, while a Sorcerer's magical talent is innate. The "subclass" options are even called Bloodlines, for goodness sake. Harry has magic because he inherited the ability from his mother's bloodline. And in recent books, the circumstances of his birth have become even more significant. Harry has also demonstrated the ability to tweak the output of his magic to suit a situation, a narrative analogue for Metamagic-like ability. Yes, Harry displays some aspects of the 5E Wizard, but he absolutely has some of the 5E Sorcerer in him as well.
And your analogy to Michael being called a Ranger makes zero sense. You're implying that a Ranger is to a Paladin what a Sorcerer is to a Wizard? How do you figure? If you wanted to say that the Ranger is to the Druid what the Paladin is to the Cleric, THAT makes sense.
Any conversion of a character from a book series with its own system of magic to D&D rules will be rough at best.
He was born with the gift of magical power. It came from his bloodline. That's something he has in common with a Sorcerer, however, he could not use his magic without formal training. That's rather the opposite of the way it works for a Sorcerer. So when trying to make a build that describes Harry, is there anything from the Sorcerer class that he actually needs? Anything he wouldn't get from simply being a Wizard? I'm not seeing it.
He made a deal with a Faerie Queen. Actually, that's not something limited by class. Anyone, of any class, can do that. A Warlock's Pact with their Patron is a pretty specific thing, and I don't see anything in the Warlock class that you would need to approximate Harry Dresden.
Harry is amazingly tough. He could take a beating and still keep right on going to an extent that was downright inhuman, and that was before he became The Winter Knight. I'd give him some feats instead of Ability Score Increases to reflect that. You don't see him getting any smarter during the series. Harry is smarter than the average bear but he's no shining tower of intellect.
The real problem with making Harry Dresden in D&D the effects of the Mantle of the Winter Knight. Best I have come up with is that he gained some new spells, and a couple of Supernatural Gifts from the DMG to add +2 to his Strength and Constitution. That's doesn't really do justice to it, but without some Serious Homebrew I don't think anything can.
I think the trick here is making Harry at level 6. He has progressed so far throughout the books and definitely grown stronger with each, just as Toot has grown taller. I propose a spell hunt based on the premise that each book equals one character level. So... what spells dose Harry use in the first six books? Friends, let us go hunting and re-read some old favorites to help with Jessebruffett's quest for the best spells to choose.
So everyone things Evocation, not Abjuration or Divination? I was thinking Div because he is a PI and pretty good at finding things and tracking spells. Thats pretty divination...
Every Wizard in D&D can cast Divination spells. He is indeed a Private Investigator too. It says so on his license. He's absolutely got Proficiency with the Investigation skill.
The abilities that come from the School of Divination have more to do with foretelling the future though. That's really not what Harry does at all. He doesn't seem to be better with Divination spells than any other Wizard as far as we can tell.
One of the abilities from the School of Abjuration, Arcane Ward, kind of matches with one of the things Harry does a lot, which is his shield. On the other hand, he doesn't much use any other form of protective spell. He doesn't seem to be better at protective spells than any other Wizard as far as we can tell. I actually suggested Abjuration myself earlier in this thread but the more I think about it the less I like it.
The abilities that come from the School of Evocation are neither great fits nor bad fits. What does Harry do best though, and almost constantly? He throws around beams of fire and blasts of force. He calls it "Kaboom magic" and he talks about how that's the kind of magic he is really good at compared to other Wizards. Where would Harry be without "Fuego" and "Forzare"?
If I have to pick a School at all, I'd say it is Evocation.
Harry is very consistent about saying that he's primarily a blaster as a mage. He can handle other forms of magic, but not nearly as well. Definitely Evoker. The thing is, he's very definitely not just a wizard. He's skilled with multiple types of firearms, and thanks to working out with Michael and Murphy he's no slouch at hand-to-hand combat. On top of that, you've got the Mantle of the Winter Knight, which by D&D standards is a template. I'd say that it boosts Strength and Con up to 20 if they're not already there, gives Cold resistance, and provides the benefits of the Elemental Adept (Cold) feat. The thing is, though, that magic works very differently in the Dresdenverse than it does in D&D.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Joining a campaign at level 6 and im wanting to make a Harry Dresden clone/inspired character. At some point we all know he's going to have some levels in fey pact warlock but im stuck on the meat and potatoes, is he a wizard or sorcerer? I think either could work but im looking at the thematics more than "min/maxing" so for both possibilities. For wizard is he more evocation or divination? For sorcerer... I have no idea what subclass would fit, thoughts?
Harry is a wizard. It even says so in his ad in the Chicago yellow pages.
Also given the way his strengths are described in the books, I would say evocation over divination without any doubt. Evocation is described as "magic that creates powerful elemental effects such as bitter cold, searing flame, rolling thunder, crackling lightning, and burning acid." That certainly seems to fit a caster who uses "Forzare" and "Fuego" as his go-to spells more often than not.
Of course, he is also a gammer who plays a human barbarian, carries his dice in a crown royal bag and occasionally disrupts sessions by complaining about the way magic works in the rule books.... I am less sure how you would incorporate those aspects into your PC. Maybe creative background options?
Thats where I was leaning. Starting at level 6 should I go 6 wizard and go into the warlock later, or start out at 5/1 or 4/2 wizard and warlock? what spells should I take?
If not all Wizard, 5/1 Wizard/Warlock. Ask your GM if you can re-flavor Lightning Bolt to fire damage.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
The nearest equivalent that you can get in D&D to what Harry is would be a plain old straight Wizard. He's probably an Evocation Wizard, but you could make a good case for an Abjuration Wizard. He uses that Shield Spell of his an awful lot. Still in all, he's mostly about the Kaboom kind of magic.
His powers come more from study and training. He's no Sorcerer. He went to school. He's quite proud of that. He's also proud of his ability to adjust to a wide variety of situations if given the time to prepare. That's much more the hallmark of a Wizard than a Sorcerer.
While Harry did indeed enter into a Pact with a Fey Queen, the powers and abilities of a Warlock have nothing at all to do with what he got from the deal. He surely didn't get anything close to the stuff a Fey Patron gives you.
His pact with Mab amounted to some new spells, and some Feats, like Durable, Tough, and Elemental Adept (Cold). He's a Wizard who can really take a beating. He gained a whole bunch of Strength, but I have no idea how you would simulate that in D&D. There's no single Feat that takes you from Average Strength (10) to what-ever it takes to lift the end of a car.
<Insert clever signature here>
Int>Cha>Con>Dex>Str>Wis for stats. Yes, there's no mechanical need for high charisma, but you have to have to be good at insulting people and lying as Dresden. Dumpstat wisdom will hurt, as it hurts actual Harry in every goddamned book.
Wizard base, probably Evocation.
Multiclass into inquisitive Rogue for his PI persona.
Crossbow master/Gunslinger trait for his trusty revolver.
Probably warlock multiclass if you use the later books. As for patrons, depending on the time he worked with fiends, celestials and in current time it would be fey.
The build is a mess, but so is Harry, so it's OK.
Yes, by that reasoning he'd be a Wizard. But given that his his initial magical ability was passed down through his bloodline, and some of his current power comes from pacts with more than one powerful entity, he's got elements of Sorcerer, Wizard AND Warlock.
His bloodline has nothing to do with his class. That's just background fluff.
He is in no way a Sorcerer.
That's like saying Michael is a Ranger.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
It's extremely relevant. In 5E, a Wizard's magic comes purely from study, while a Sorcerer's magical talent is innate. The "subclass" options are even called Bloodlines, for goodness sake. Harry has magic because he inherited the ability from his mother's bloodline. And in recent books, the circumstances of his birth have become even more significant. Harry has also demonstrated the ability to tweak the output of his magic to suit a situation, a narrative analogue for Metamagic-like ability. Yes, Harry displays some aspects of the 5E Wizard, but he absolutely has some of the 5E Sorcerer in him as well.
And your analogy to Michael being called a Ranger makes zero sense. You're implying that a Ranger is to a Paladin what a Sorcerer is to a Wizard? How do you figure? If you wanted to say that the Ranger is to the Druid what the Paladin is to the Cleric, THAT makes sense.
No I'm saying Harry being a Sorcerer is ridiculous.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Any conversion of a character from a book series with its own system of magic to D&D rules will be rough at best.
He was born with the gift of magical power. It came from his bloodline. That's something he has in common with a Sorcerer, however, he could not use his magic without formal training. That's rather the opposite of the way it works for a Sorcerer. So when trying to make a build that describes Harry, is there anything from the Sorcerer class that he actually needs? Anything he wouldn't get from simply being a Wizard? I'm not seeing it.
He made a deal with a Faerie Queen. Actually, that's not something limited by class. Anyone, of any class, can do that. A Warlock's Pact with their Patron is a pretty specific thing, and I don't see anything in the Warlock class that you would need to approximate Harry Dresden.
Harry is amazingly tough. He could take a beating and still keep right on going to an extent that was downright inhuman, and that was before he became The Winter Knight. I'd give him some feats instead of Ability Score Increases to reflect that. You don't see him getting any smarter during the series. Harry is smarter than the average bear but he's no shining tower of intellect.
The real problem with making Harry Dresden in D&D the effects of the Mantle of the Winter Knight. Best I have come up with is that he gained some new spells, and a couple of Supernatural Gifts from the DMG to add +2 to his Strength and Constitution. That's doesn't really do justice to it, but without some Serious Homebrew I don't think anything can.
<Insert clever signature here>
I think the trick here is making Harry at level 6. He has progressed so far throughout the books and definitely grown stronger with each, just as Toot has grown taller.
I propose a spell hunt based on the premise that each book equals one character level. So... what spells dose Harry use in the first six books?
Friends, let us go hunting and re-read some old favorites to help with Jessebruffett's quest for the best spells to choose.
I love toot.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Damn... I guess I have to get my books all back out. lol
I was wondering about everyone else's thoughts too on the 1:1 book:level ratio, is that a consensus?
Seems about right. Until he dies.
Whups, spoiler alert.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
So everyone things Evocation, not Abjuration or Divination? I was thinking Div because he is a PI and pretty good at finding things and tracking spells. Thats pretty divination...
Every Wizard in D&D can cast Divination spells. He is indeed a Private Investigator too. It says so on his license. He's absolutely got Proficiency with the Investigation skill.
The abilities that come from the School of Divination have more to do with foretelling the future though. That's really not what Harry does at all. He doesn't seem to be better with Divination spells than any other Wizard as far as we can tell.
One of the abilities from the School of Abjuration, Arcane Ward, kind of matches with one of the things Harry does a lot, which is his shield. On the other hand, he doesn't much use any other form of protective spell. He doesn't seem to be better at protective spells than any other Wizard as far as we can tell. I actually suggested Abjuration myself earlier in this thread but the more I think about it the less I like it.
The abilities that come from the School of Evocation are neither great fits nor bad fits. What does Harry do best though, and almost constantly? He throws around beams of fire and blasts of force. He calls it "Kaboom magic" and he talks about how that's the kind of magic he is really good at compared to other Wizards. Where would Harry be without "Fuego" and "Forzare"?
If I have to pick a School at all, I'd say it is Evocation.
<Insert clever signature here>
Harry is very consistent about saying that he's primarily a blaster as a mage. He can handle other forms of magic, but not nearly as well. Definitely Evoker. The thing is, he's very definitely not just a wizard. He's skilled with multiple types of firearms, and thanks to working out with Michael and Murphy he's no slouch at hand-to-hand combat. On top of that, you've got the Mantle of the Winter Knight, which by D&D standards is a template. I'd say that it boosts Strength and Con up to 20 if they're not already there, gives Cold resistance, and provides the benefits of the Elemental Adept (Cold) feat. The thing is, though, that magic works very differently in the Dresdenverse than it does in D&D.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I think im gonna go 4 wizard, 1 rogue and 1 warlock to start with. how should I do stats and level 1 feat? We are doing point buy
He is not a Rogue.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale