This was exactly the case in 3e and was the basis for all the computations. And it worked out of the box at the time because CRs actually scaled in terms of Attacks, AC and defenses, making higher CRs really tougher and balancing the equation. But in 5e, with bounded accuracy, the only thing that really scales directly are hit points, all the other effects are marginal for such small differences in CR, meaning that the action economy becomes a very critical part of the danger of an encounter. They have corrected this as well as they could in the encounter calculation
They could have corrected it directly, by just changing CRs. Part of the problem is that they tried to normalize for 'CR X is a challenge for a party of level X', but that doesn't matter for CR less than 1, so they could have changed those from ½, ¼, ⅛ to ⅔, ½, ⅓ (which slightly overestimates swarms of small creatures, because of AoEs, but not by very much).
This was exactly the case in 3e and was the basis for all the computations. And it worked out of the box at the time because CRs actually scaled in terms of Attacks, AC and defenses, making higher CRs really tougher and balancing the equation. But in 5e, with bounded accuracy, the only thing that really scales directly are hit points, all the other effects are marginal for such small differences in CR, meaning that the action economy becomes a very critical part of the danger of an encounter. They have corrected this as well as they could in the encounter calculation
They could have corrected it directly, by just changing CRs. Part of the problem is that they tried to normalize for 'CR X is a challenge for a party of level X', but that doesn't matter for CR less than 1, so they could have changed those from ½, ¼, ⅛ to ⅔, ½, ⅓ (which slightly overestimates swarms of small creatures, because of AoEs, but not by very much).
The problem is that it's not linear, unfortunately. Everything was linear in 3e, so everything scaled well. but 5e progression is not linear, only HP are linear. Or, to be more precise, the rate of scaling of the other factors are very dissimilar. This is why, in the encounter calculator, it's not linear either according to the number of creatures, because of the action economy.
What worked well in 3e (and the reason for having CRs 1/8, 1/4 and 1/2 (which honestly really complicates the naming of these when 8 x 1/8 does not equal one)) but it does not any more, and it only works in the encounter calculator when it's relative to the Level of the PC. But here, you need an absolute modifier for lower quantities, which would not be the same for all the levels. 8 wolves are really nasty at level 5, but 16 wolves are really not that bad joke at level 9, and 32 wolves are an absolute joke at lvl 17 (if still annoying to manage), but because of other factors that the encounter calculator bravely tries to take into account and barely manages to because of the imprecision of the computations. So maybe it would be better with:
One beast of challenge rating 2 or lower
Two beasts of challenge rating 1 or lower
Three beasts of challenge rating 1/2 or lower
Four beasts of challenge rating 1/4 or lower
In any case, the new summons avoid that particular headache. :D
16 wolves is still extremely viable damage wise at level 9.
You are looking at 85 damage per round with the wolves attacking at ADV which they will due to pack tactics....even if you only manage one round of that damage that is insane.
Even if you force the enemy to use an AoE on the wolves they will have to target themselves or waste an action dealing with the summons.
Hell even at level 17 you are talking an insane 113 points of damage per round with a creature that has an AC of 20: https://imgur.com/vhwJLmx
That is NOT a joke at all. Especially for a Shepard Druid who can make those attacks magical and boost their HP.
Now flying creatures are pretty much immune to this...unless you summon a crap ton of blood hawks which also have pack tactics: https://imgur.com/Fb7OjJ1
Which means you are doing 70 points of magical piercing damage a round with a bunch of hawks that can outfly a lot of creatures (60ft fly speed)
Overall its easy to see how the conjure spells are stupidly overtuned.
I don't fault your computations, but remember that 16 wolves will not be able to attack one target, even less 22, that getting into position is going to get them killed and that a single AoE from that level will wipe them out. That being said, I agree with the fact that we should switch to the Tasha's summons. :)
1. Every encounter will have an enemy with AoE soley for the use of destroying Conjures? 2. Creatures can move in/out of spaces to allow others to attack. They only get one AoO so you can kill one wolf per turn....its completely possible for all 32 to attack a single target if they move in attack then move out.
I don't fault your computations, but remember that 16 wolves will not be able to attack one target, even less 22, that getting into position is going to get them killed and that a single AoE from that level will wipe them out. That being said, I agree with the fact that we should switch to the Tasha's summons. :)
1. Every encounter will have an enemy with AoE soley for the use of destroying Conjures?
No, but the likelihood of having one at a higher level is really high.
2. Creatures can move in/out of spaces to allow others to attack. They only get one AoO so you can kill one wolf per turn....its completely possible for all 32 to attack a single target if they move in attack then move out.
That's a good point, really, this does not really work for wolves who would lose their pack tactics (and doing differently would really be too much to ask for simple beasts), but still extremely annoying indeed.
I would argue wolves would have an instinct to ALWAYS get their pack tactics as that is their nature so it makes a lot of sense for them to shift around to allow another wolf in for the bite.
Overall I just think it shows that the spells are way overtuned for a spell that level if you follow the DMG guides on damage per spell level.
I am in full agreement that these summon spells are by far a better solution and honestly I would be in favor of removing most if not all of the conjure spells in the game.
I do not impose a lot of restrictions as a DM as I only have 3:
1. PCs with flight speed is limited to 30ft of flight until level 5.
2. Conjure spells can summon no more than 3 creatures
3. Animate Objects is Medium creatures or larger.
I do feel that "minonmancy" is a bane on the system.
I do feel that "minonmancy" is a bane on the system.
One of the design goals of 5e was to make minions a threat, so it's working as designed.
Fair....it just swung too far the other way for most of these spells.
Honestly, I think it swung too far in general, it doesn't take that many Bandits to take out an ancient dragon.
How many do you reckon? Because the dragon has high AC, a stupidly large amount of hit points, and a breath weapon to deal with large crowds. Nevermind other environmental factors.
EDIT: You know what? Forget about it. No amount of bandits can overcome an ancient red dragon's Frightful Presence. It's literally impossible for them to pass the Wisdom save.
How many do you reckon? Because the dragon has high AC, a stupidly large amount of hit points, and a breath weapon to deal with large crowds. Nevermind other environmental factors.
Fairly situational. The basic problem for the dragon is that ranged attackers can be pretty dispersed, so even a 90' cone doesn't take out that many of them. The main problem for the bandits is frightful presence, find a way around that and a hundred bandits wins fairly handily.
How many do you reckon? Because the dragon has high AC, a stupidly large amount of hit points, and a breath weapon to deal with large crowds. Nevermind other environmental factors.
Fairly situational. The basic problem for the dragon is that ranged attackers can be pretty dispersed, so even a 90' cone doesn't take out that many of them. The main problem for the bandits is frightful presence, find a way around that and a hundred bandits wins fairly handily.
Pardon my language, but there's theory-crafting and then there's bovine excrement. Even if you could conceive of a battle where it's 100 bandits vs 1 ancient red dragon, the dragon has the numerical advantage. Nevermind that you think 100 is "not that many."
Pardon my language, but there's theory-crafting and then there's bovine excrement. Even if you could conceive of a battle where it's 100 bandits vs 1 ancient red dragon, the dragon has the numerical advantage. Nevermind that you think 100 is "not that many."
If you're considering the scenario of 'dragon attacks city' a hundred people shooting at the dragon is in no way unreasonable (they probably aren't actually bandits, but bandit is a handy template for generic low quality ranged forces), and it's 2,500 xp (adjusted 10,000) vs 62,000.
I like the Tasha's summons because they are simple and effective. Not overpowered, not broken and don't clutter the map.
As a DM I share Matt Mercer's sentiment towards Conjuration - ie. it may be fun for a player to put 8 other creatures on the map but the only thing in my head that goes like a mantra is "f*** that spell" :D
Ah, I remember good old 3.0 and 3.5. My druid was a huge time sink. When my turn started, the other players might as well just go watch TV or something.
First there was my druid herself... wildshaped into a deinonychus (5 attacks with a charge... up to 7 with the 'girralon arms' spell and up to 9 with some spell that gives you a couple tentacles - I forget the name).
Then her dire ape animal companion - three attacks, and an additional rend if the two claws hit.
Pardon my language, but there's theory-crafting and then there's bovine excrement. Even if you could conceive of a battle where it's 100 bandits vs 1 ancient red dragon, the dragon has the numerical advantage. Nevermind that you think 100 is "not that many."
If you're considering the scenario of 'dragon attacks city' a hundred people shooting at the dragon is in no way unreasonable (they probably aren't actually bandits, but bandit is a handy template for generic low quality ranged forces), and it's 2,500 xp (adjusted 10,000) vs 62,000.
Assuming 100 bandits fail the wisdom save for Frightening Presence (they can't actually succeed) they will only do about 7 damage per turn to the dragon shooting at disadvantage.
With a HP pool of 546 it would take 78 rounds to kill it. However, the fear effect would run out after 10 rounds so after that whoever is left would be immune to the effect.
Assuming 100 bandits fail the wisdom save for Frightening Presence (they can't actually succeed) they will only do about 7 damage per turn to the dragon shooting at disadvantage.
I did specify 'find a way around frightful presence'. Without that, the best option for the bandits is to run away for a minute, and then (immune for 24 hours) regroup.
The dragon, on rounds where it doesn't breathe, and assuming the bandits are fairly spread out, can reliably kill five bandits (fly to one, bite, fly to another, claw, fly to another, claw, land next to another, LA wing attack to take out bandit and fly to another, LA tail swipe), how many it can take out with a breath depends a lot on dispersion and terrain, if we assume 20 that puts time to defeat them all at around 9 rounds, which actually looks like the dragon might barely win. It's a lot easier for other dragon types, an ancient white dragon dies pretty fast.
Assuming 100 bandits fail the wisdom save for Frightening Presence (they can't actually succeed) they will only do about 7 damage per turn to the dragon shooting at disadvantage.
I did specify 'find a way around frightful presence'. Without that, the best option for the bandits is to run away for a minute, and then (immune for 24 hours) regroup.
Scouts tend to be the units for city archer defense. But, in any case, no dragon is just going to attack a city until it dies. If it looked like it was going to have a bad time, it would retreat. If you want a fight to the death, you fight it in its lair. And you're not fitting 100 troops in a lair to fight a dragon.
Can we all agree that the new Tasha’s summons are easier to use, for everyone involved in the game?
Less fiddley bits. One creature. You know what you get. No DM interpretation. You bet a buddy and the basic feel of a conjure spell. “Power”, “damage output, and overall usefulness aside.
So, since this thread has basically turned into discussing Conjure Minor X spells....
I've had issues with long term summons versus traps, and with dungeons not really having the room to deal with all the critters you can use. Hallways, in specific, tend to make using summons problematic. Do the conjured animals actually die? Or are they just spirits that reform? That's always been an issue with my group - mass killing of animal friends weights on the conscience.
Anyone else have these issues with the lower leveled Conjure spells?
Well, I had that come up as a situation, but not a problem. As a player, I once played a circle of the shepherd druid (in dungeon of the mad mage) who always conjured 4 bears. That’s it. Always 4 bears. It was the character’s whole thing. I started using them to trigger traps and such in the game. The DM, crafty person that he was, told me that since the bears are the same spirits conjured over and over again (because my character was built around this idea) they started to resent this abuse and refused to do that anymore. I thought this was a hilarious and brilliant way to solve this issue. Plus, there was a rogue in the party.
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They could have corrected it directly, by just changing CRs. Part of the problem is that they tried to normalize for 'CR X is a challenge for a party of level X', but that doesn't matter for CR less than 1, so they could have changed those from ½, ¼, ⅛ to ⅔, ½, ⅓ (which slightly overestimates swarms of small creatures, because of AoEs, but not by very much).
16 wolves is still extremely viable damage wise at level 9.
Based on CR averages for AC:
And the DPR output of 16 wolves: https://imgur.com/6lLcxcu
You are looking at 85 damage per round with the wolves attacking at ADV which they will due to pack tactics....even if you only manage one round of that damage that is insane.
Even if you force the enemy to use an AoE on the wolves they will have to target themselves or waste an action dealing with the summons.
Hell even at level 17 you are talking an insane 113 points of damage per round with a creature that has an AC of 20: https://imgur.com/vhwJLmx
That is NOT a joke at all. Especially for a Shepard Druid who can make those attacks magical and boost their HP.
Now flying creatures are pretty much immune to this...unless you summon a crap ton of blood hawks which also have pack tactics: https://imgur.com/Fb7OjJ1
Which means you are doing 70 points of magical piercing damage a round with a bunch of hawks that can outfly a lot of creatures (60ft fly speed)
Overall its easy to see how the conjure spells are stupidly overtuned.
1. Every encounter will have an enemy with AoE soley for the use of destroying Conjures?
2. Creatures can move in/out of spaces to allow others to attack. They only get one AoO so you can kill one wolf per turn....its completely possible for all 32 to attack a single target if they move in attack then move out.
I would argue wolves would have an instinct to ALWAYS get their pack tactics as that is their nature so it makes a lot of sense for them to shift around to allow another wolf in for the bite.
Overall I just think it shows that the spells are way overtuned for a spell that level if you follow the DMG guides on damage per spell level.
I am in full agreement that these summon spells are by far a better solution and honestly I would be in favor of removing most if not all of the conjure spells in the game.
I do not impose a lot of restrictions as a DM as I only have 3:
1. PCs with flight speed is limited to 30ft of flight until level 5.
2. Conjure spells can summon no more than 3 creatures
3. Animate Objects is Medium creatures or larger.
I do feel that "minonmancy" is a bane on the system.
One of the design goals of 5e was to make minions a threat, so it's working as designed.
Fair....it just swung too far the other way for most of these spells.
Honestly, I think it swung too far in general, it doesn't take that many Bandits to take out an ancient dragon.
VERY fair point.
How many do you reckon? Because the dragon has high AC, a stupidly large amount of hit points, and a breath weapon to deal with large crowds. Nevermind other environmental factors.
EDIT: You know what? Forget about it. No amount of bandits can overcome an ancient red dragon's Frightful Presence. It's literally impossible for them to pass the Wisdom save.
Fairly situational. The basic problem for the dragon is that ranged attackers can be pretty dispersed, so even a 90' cone doesn't take out that many of them. The main problem for the bandits is frightful presence, find a way around that and a hundred bandits wins fairly handily.
Pardon my language, but there's theory-crafting and then there's bovine excrement. Even if you could conceive of a battle where it's 100 bandits vs 1 ancient red dragon, the dragon has the numerical advantage. Nevermind that you think 100 is "not that many."
If you're considering the scenario of 'dragon attacks city' a hundred people shooting at the dragon is in no way unreasonable (they probably aren't actually bandits, but bandit is a handy template for generic low quality ranged forces), and it's 2,500 xp (adjusted 10,000) vs 62,000.
Ah, I remember good old 3.0 and 3.5. My druid was a huge time sink. When my turn started, the other players might as well just go watch TV or something.
First there was my druid herself... wildshaped into a deinonychus (5 attacks with a charge... up to 7 with the 'girralon arms' spell and up to 9 with some spell that gives you a couple tentacles - I forget the name).
Then her dire ape animal companion - three attacks, and an additional rend if the two claws hit.
Add to that Summon Nature's Ally... ugh
Doesn't look too good for the bandits: https://imgur.com/Wz8WDZh
Assuming 100 bandits fail the wisdom save for Frightening Presence (they can't actually succeed) they will only do about 7 damage per turn to the dragon shooting at disadvantage.
With a HP pool of 546 it would take 78 rounds to kill it. However, the fear effect would run out after 10 rounds so after that whoever is left would be immune to the effect.
Assuming half die in those 10 rounds: https://imgur.com/wWU9eDB
It would take the 50 remaining folks 13 rounds to kill the dragon assuming no more casualties which does seem unlikely.
They would do a dent for sure tho.
I did specify 'find a way around frightful presence'. Without that, the best option for the bandits is to run away for a minute, and then (immune for 24 hours) regroup.
The dragon, on rounds where it doesn't breathe, and assuming the bandits are fairly spread out, can reliably kill five bandits (fly to one, bite, fly to another, claw, fly to another, claw, land next to another, LA wing attack to take out bandit and fly to another, LA tail swipe), how many it can take out with a breath depends a lot on dispersion and terrain, if we assume 20 that puts time to defeat them all at around 9 rounds, which actually looks like the dragon might barely win. It's a lot easier for other dragon types, an ancient white dragon dies pretty fast.
Fair point.
Scouts tend to be the units for city archer defense. But, in any case, no dragon is just going to attack a city until it dies. If it looked like it was going to have a bad time, it would retreat. If you want a fight to the death, you fight it in its lair. And you're not fitting 100 troops in a lair to fight a dragon.
This thread seems to be off topic again. LOL!
Can we all agree that the new Tasha’s summons are easier to use, for everyone involved in the game?
Less fiddley bits. One creature. You know what you get. No DM interpretation. You bet a buddy and the basic feel of a conjure spell. “Power”, “damage output, and overall usefulness aside.
So, since this thread has basically turned into discussing Conjure Minor X spells....
I've had issues with long term summons versus traps, and with dungeons not really having the room to deal with all the critters you can use. Hallways, in specific, tend to make using summons problematic. Do the conjured animals actually die? Or are they just spirits that reform? That's always been an issue with my group - mass killing of animal friends weights on the conscience.
Anyone else have these issues with the lower leveled Conjure spells?
Yes!
Well, I had that come up as a situation, but not a problem. As a player, I once played a circle of the shepherd druid (in dungeon of the mad mage) who always conjured 4 bears. That’s it. Always 4 bears. It was the character’s whole thing. I started using them to trigger traps and such in the game. The DM, crafty person that he was, told me that since the bears are the same spirits conjured over and over again (because my character was built around this idea) they started to resent this abuse and refused to do that anymore. I thought this was a hilarious and brilliant way to solve this issue. Plus, there was a rogue in the party.