I do feel that "minonmancy" is a bane on the system.
One of the design goals of 5e was to make minions a threat, so it's working as designed.
Fair....it just swung too far the other way for most of these spells.
Honestly, I think it swung too far in general, it doesn't take that many Bandits to take out an ancient dragon.
How many do you reckon? Because the dragon has high AC, a stupidly large amount of hit points, and a breath weapon to deal with large crowds. Nevermind other environmental factors.
EDIT: You know what? Forget about it. No amount of bandits can overcome an ancient red dragon's Frightful Presence. It's literally impossible for them to pass the Wisdom save.
How many do you reckon? Because the dragon has high AC, a stupidly large amount of hit points, and a breath weapon to deal with large crowds. Nevermind other environmental factors.
Fairly situational. The basic problem for the dragon is that ranged attackers can be pretty dispersed, so even a 90' cone doesn't take out that many of them. The main problem for the bandits is frightful presence, find a way around that and a hundred bandits wins fairly handily.
How many do you reckon? Because the dragon has high AC, a stupidly large amount of hit points, and a breath weapon to deal with large crowds. Nevermind other environmental factors.
Fairly situational. The basic problem for the dragon is that ranged attackers can be pretty dispersed, so even a 90' cone doesn't take out that many of them. The main problem for the bandits is frightful presence, find a way around that and a hundred bandits wins fairly handily.
Pardon my language, but there's theory-crafting and then there's bovine excrement. Even if you could conceive of a battle where it's 100 bandits vs 1 ancient red dragon, the dragon has the numerical advantage. Nevermind that you think 100 is "not that many."
Pardon my language, but there's theory-crafting and then there's bovine excrement. Even if you could conceive of a battle where it's 100 bandits vs 1 ancient red dragon, the dragon has the numerical advantage. Nevermind that you think 100 is "not that many."
If you're considering the scenario of 'dragon attacks city' a hundred people shooting at the dragon is in no way unreasonable (they probably aren't actually bandits, but bandit is a handy template for generic low quality ranged forces), and it's 2,500 xp (adjusted 10,000) vs 62,000.
I like the Tasha's summons because they are simple and effective. Not overpowered, not broken and don't clutter the map.
As a DM I share Matt Mercer's sentiment towards Conjuration - ie. it may be fun for a player to put 8 other creatures on the map but the only thing in my head that goes like a mantra is "f*** that spell" :D
Ah, I remember good old 3.0 and 3.5. My druid was a huge time sink. When my turn started, the other players might as well just go watch TV or something.
First there was my druid herself... wildshaped into a deinonychus (5 attacks with a charge... up to 7 with the 'girralon arms' spell and up to 9 with some spell that gives you a couple tentacles - I forget the name).
Then her dire ape animal companion - three attacks, and an additional rend if the two claws hit.
Pardon my language, but there's theory-crafting and then there's bovine excrement. Even if you could conceive of a battle where it's 100 bandits vs 1 ancient red dragon, the dragon has the numerical advantage. Nevermind that you think 100 is "not that many."
If you're considering the scenario of 'dragon attacks city' a hundred people shooting at the dragon is in no way unreasonable (they probably aren't actually bandits, but bandit is a handy template for generic low quality ranged forces), and it's 2,500 xp (adjusted 10,000) vs 62,000.
Assuming 100 bandits fail the wisdom save for Frightening Presence (they can't actually succeed) they will only do about 7 damage per turn to the dragon shooting at disadvantage.
With a HP pool of 546 it would take 78 rounds to kill it. However, the fear effect would run out after 10 rounds so after that whoever is left would be immune to the effect.
Assuming 100 bandits fail the wisdom save for Frightening Presence (they can't actually succeed) they will only do about 7 damage per turn to the dragon shooting at disadvantage.
I did specify 'find a way around frightful presence'. Without that, the best option for the bandits is to run away for a minute, and then (immune for 24 hours) regroup.
The dragon, on rounds where it doesn't breathe, and assuming the bandits are fairly spread out, can reliably kill five bandits (fly to one, bite, fly to another, claw, fly to another, claw, land next to another, LA wing attack to take out bandit and fly to another, LA tail swipe), how many it can take out with a breath depends a lot on dispersion and terrain, if we assume 20 that puts time to defeat them all at around 9 rounds, which actually looks like the dragon might barely win. It's a lot easier for other dragon types, an ancient white dragon dies pretty fast.
Assuming 100 bandits fail the wisdom save for Frightening Presence (they can't actually succeed) they will only do about 7 damage per turn to the dragon shooting at disadvantage.
I did specify 'find a way around frightful presence'. Without that, the best option for the bandits is to run away for a minute, and then (immune for 24 hours) regroup.
Scouts tend to be the units for city archer defense. But, in any case, no dragon is just going to attack a city until it dies. If it looked like it was going to have a bad time, it would retreat. If you want a fight to the death, you fight it in its lair. And you're not fitting 100 troops in a lair to fight a dragon.
Can we all agree that the new Tasha’s summons are easier to use, for everyone involved in the game?
Less fiddley bits. One creature. You know what you get. No DM interpretation. You bet a buddy and the basic feel of a conjure spell. “Power”, “damage output, and overall usefulness aside.
So, since this thread has basically turned into discussing Conjure Minor X spells....
I've had issues with long term summons versus traps, and with dungeons not really having the room to deal with all the critters you can use. Hallways, in specific, tend to make using summons problematic. Do the conjured animals actually die? Or are they just spirits that reform? That's always been an issue with my group - mass killing of animal friends weights on the conscience.
Anyone else have these issues with the lower leveled Conjure spells?
Well, I had that come up as a situation, but not a problem. As a player, I once played a circle of the shepherd druid (in dungeon of the mad mage) who always conjured 4 bears. That’s it. Always 4 bears. It was the character’s whole thing. I started using them to trigger traps and such in the game. The DM, crafty person that he was, told me that since the bears are the same spirits conjured over and over again (because my character was built around this idea) they started to resent this abuse and refused to do that anymore. I thought this was a hilarious and brilliant way to solve this issue. Plus, there was a rogue in the party.
To be fair to determine how "good" the new summons are you do need to know how "good" the conjure spells are as they are the direct competition to these spells.
And that's why its also important to explain how stupidly over tuned the conjure spells are. You have to set perspective that yes the new summons are less damaging....but thats ok as its better for the game as a whole with the summon spells pretty much replacing the conjure spells. The design behind the conjure spells is hilariously bad IMO.
At this point I am pretty close as a DM to just banning the conjure spells completely and allowing more classes to pick up the summons.
To be fair to determine how "good" the new summons are you do need to know how "good" the conjure spells are as they are the direct competition to these spells.
And that's why its also important to explain how stupidly over tuned the conjure spells are. You have to set perspective that yes the new summons are less damaging....but thats ok as its better for the game as a whole with the summon spells pretty much replacing the conjure spells. The design behind the conjure spells is hilariously bad IMO.
At this point I am pretty close as a DM to just banning the conjure spells completely and allowing more classes to pick up the summons.
I agree with you in regards to a good comparison. I disagree with you in regards to banning those conjure spells. They are important to the classes that use them.
What if we compare the summon beast spell to conjure animals spell using only a CR 2 beast? Like a level 3 summon beast (up cast) to a level 3 conjure animals with a CR 2 polar bear? Or the same but both up cast at level 5, with 2 attacks for the summon beast and 2 polar bears? Depending on what beast you get from the conjure spell, it seems the damage output and action economy would be pretty close. But the polar bear(s) would be nicer in my opinion because of the cover and blocking from the large size.
Would these (above) options be a fair comparison to the summon beast spell without being time consuming, overpowered, or troublesome for DMs and other players?
They have the added effect of being larger, flying and swimming, and having lots of fun effects and abilities.
Honestly, I think it swung too far in general, it doesn't take that many Bandits to take out an ancient dragon.
VERY fair point.
How many do you reckon? Because the dragon has high AC, a stupidly large amount of hit points, and a breath weapon to deal with large crowds. Nevermind other environmental factors.
EDIT: You know what? Forget about it. No amount of bandits can overcome an ancient red dragon's Frightful Presence. It's literally impossible for them to pass the Wisdom save.
Fairly situational. The basic problem for the dragon is that ranged attackers can be pretty dispersed, so even a 90' cone doesn't take out that many of them. The main problem for the bandits is frightful presence, find a way around that and a hundred bandits wins fairly handily.
Pardon my language, but there's theory-crafting and then there's bovine excrement. Even if you could conceive of a battle where it's 100 bandits vs 1 ancient red dragon, the dragon has the numerical advantage. Nevermind that you think 100 is "not that many."
If you're considering the scenario of 'dragon attacks city' a hundred people shooting at the dragon is in no way unreasonable (they probably aren't actually bandits, but bandit is a handy template for generic low quality ranged forces), and it's 2,500 xp (adjusted 10,000) vs 62,000.
Ah, I remember good old 3.0 and 3.5. My druid was a huge time sink. When my turn started, the other players might as well just go watch TV or something.
First there was my druid herself... wildshaped into a deinonychus (5 attacks with a charge... up to 7 with the 'girralon arms' spell and up to 9 with some spell that gives you a couple tentacles - I forget the name).
Then her dire ape animal companion - three attacks, and an additional rend if the two claws hit.
Add to that Summon Nature's Ally... ugh
Doesn't look too good for the bandits: https://imgur.com/Wz8WDZh
Assuming 100 bandits fail the wisdom save for Frightening Presence (they can't actually succeed) they will only do about 7 damage per turn to the dragon shooting at disadvantage.
With a HP pool of 546 it would take 78 rounds to kill it. However, the fear effect would run out after 10 rounds so after that whoever is left would be immune to the effect.
Assuming half die in those 10 rounds: https://imgur.com/wWU9eDB
It would take the 50 remaining folks 13 rounds to kill the dragon assuming no more casualties which does seem unlikely.
They would do a dent for sure tho.
I did specify 'find a way around frightful presence'. Without that, the best option for the bandits is to run away for a minute, and then (immune for 24 hours) regroup.
The dragon, on rounds where it doesn't breathe, and assuming the bandits are fairly spread out, can reliably kill five bandits (fly to one, bite, fly to another, claw, fly to another, claw, land next to another, LA wing attack to take out bandit and fly to another, LA tail swipe), how many it can take out with a breath depends a lot on dispersion and terrain, if we assume 20 that puts time to defeat them all at around 9 rounds, which actually looks like the dragon might barely win. It's a lot easier for other dragon types, an ancient white dragon dies pretty fast.
Fair point.
Scouts tend to be the units for city archer defense. But, in any case, no dragon is just going to attack a city until it dies. If it looked like it was going to have a bad time, it would retreat. If you want a fight to the death, you fight it in its lair. And you're not fitting 100 troops in a lair to fight a dragon.
This thread seems to be off topic again. LOL!
Can we all agree that the new Tasha’s summons are easier to use, for everyone involved in the game?
Less fiddley bits. One creature. You know what you get. No DM interpretation. You bet a buddy and the basic feel of a conjure spell. “Power”, “damage output, and overall usefulness aside.
So, since this thread has basically turned into discussing Conjure Minor X spells....
I've had issues with long term summons versus traps, and with dungeons not really having the room to deal with all the critters you can use. Hallways, in specific, tend to make using summons problematic. Do the conjured animals actually die? Or are they just spirits that reform? That's always been an issue with my group - mass killing of animal friends weights on the conscience.
Anyone else have these issues with the lower leveled Conjure spells?
Yes!
Well, I had that come up as a situation, but not a problem. As a player, I once played a circle of the shepherd druid (in dungeon of the mad mage) who always conjured 4 bears. That’s it. Always 4 bears. It was the character’s whole thing. I started using them to trigger traps and such in the game. The DM, crafty person that he was, told me that since the bears are the same spirits conjured over and over again (because my character was built around this idea) they started to resent this abuse and refused to do that anymore. I thought this was a hilarious and brilliant way to solve this issue. Plus, there was a rogue in the party.
To be fair to determine how "good" the new summons are you do need to know how "good" the conjure spells are as they are the direct competition to these spells.
And that's why its also important to explain how stupidly over tuned the conjure spells are. You have to set perspective that yes the new summons are less damaging....but thats ok as its better for the game as a whole with the summon spells pretty much replacing the conjure spells. The design behind the conjure spells is hilariously bad IMO.
At this point I am pretty close as a DM to just banning the conjure spells completely and allowing more classes to pick up the summons.
I agree with you in regards to a good comparison. I disagree with you in regards to banning those conjure spells. They are important to the classes that use them.
What if we compare the summon beast spell to conjure animals spell using only a CR 2 beast? Like a level 3 summon beast (up cast) to a level 3 conjure animals with a CR 2 polar bear? Or the same but both up cast at level 5, with 2 attacks for the summon beast and 2 polar bears? Depending on what beast you get from the conjure spell, it seems the damage output and action economy would be pretty close. But the polar bear(s) would be nicer in my opinion because of the cover and blocking from the large size.
CR 2 beasts from the monster manual.
CR 1 beasts from the monster manual (You get two of these!!!).
Would these (above) options be a fair comparison to the summon beast spell without being time consuming, overpowered, or troublesome for DMs and other players?
They have the added effect of being larger, flying and swimming, and having lots of fun effects and abilities.
CR 2 fey from the core D&D books.
CR 1 fey from the core D&D books (You get two of these!!!).
For the beast summons versus beast conjure, it seems the CR 1 option is the way to go if you want to kind of balance the damage output.