To be fair to determine how "good" the new summons are you do need to know how "good" the conjure spells are as they are the direct competition to these spells.
And that's why its also important to explain how stupidly over tuned the conjure spells are. You have to set perspective that yes the new summons are less damaging....but thats ok as its better for the game as a whole with the summon spells pretty much replacing the conjure spells. The design behind the conjure spells is hilariously bad IMO.
At this point I am pretty close as a DM to just banning the conjure spells completely and allowing more classes to pick up the summons.
To be fair to determine how "good" the new summons are you do need to know how "good" the conjure spells are as they are the direct competition to these spells.
And that's why its also important to explain how stupidly over tuned the conjure spells are. You have to set perspective that yes the new summons are less damaging....but thats ok as its better for the game as a whole with the summon spells pretty much replacing the conjure spells. The design behind the conjure spells is hilariously bad IMO.
At this point I am pretty close as a DM to just banning the conjure spells completely and allowing more classes to pick up the summons.
I agree with you in regards to a good comparison. I disagree with you in regards to banning those conjure spells. They are important to the classes that use them.
What if we compare the summon beast spell to conjure animals spell using only a CR 2 beast? Like a level 3 summon beast (up cast) to a level 3 conjure animals with a CR 2 polar bear? Or the same but both up cast at level 5, with 2 attacks for the summon beast and 2 polar bears? Depending on what beast you get from the conjure spell, it seems the damage output and action economy would be pretty close. But the polar bear(s) would be nicer in my opinion because of the cover and blocking from the large size.
Would these (above) options be a fair comparison to the summon beast spell without being time consuming, overpowered, or troublesome for DMs and other players?
They have the added effect of being larger, flying and swimming, and having lots of fun effects and abilities.
To be fair to determine how "good" the new summons are you do need to know how "good" the conjure spells are as they are the direct competition to these spells.
And that's why its also important to explain how stupidly over tuned the conjure spells are. You have to set perspective that yes the new summons are less damaging....but thats ok as its better for the game as a whole with the summon spells pretty much replacing the conjure spells. The design behind the conjure spells is hilariously bad IMO.
At this point I am pretty close as a DM to just banning the conjure spells completely and allowing more classes to pick up the summons.
I agree with you in regards to a good comparison. I disagree with you in regards to banning those conjure spells. They are important to the classes that use them.
What if we compare the summon beast spell to conjure animals spell using only a CR 2 beast? Like a level 3 summon beast (up cast) to a level 3 conjure animals with a CR 2 polar bear? Or the same but both up cast at level 5, with 2 attacks for the summon beast and 2 polar bears? Depending on what beast you get from the conjure spell, it seems the damage output and action economy would be pretty close. But the polar bear(s) would be nicer in my opinion because of the cover and blocking from the large size.
Summoning one creature, I prefer the old spell. The new one just feels very 4e, bland.
CR 2 beasts from the monster manual.
CR 1 beasts from the monster manual (You get two of these!!!).
Would these (above) options be a fair comparison to the summon beast spell without being time consuming, overpowered, or troublesome for DMs and other players?
They have the added effect of being larger, flying and swimming, and having lots of fun effects and abilities.
CR 2 fey from the core D&D books.
CR 1 fey from the core D&D books (You get two of these!!!).
For the beast summons versus beast conjure, it seems the CR 1 option is the way to go if you want to kind of balance the damage output.