Monk: Way of the Shadow (11) + Rogue: Assassin (3) + Alert Feat
Almost always first in combat, free teleportation and invisibility when in dim light or darkness, some handy stealth magic, and frequent advantage on attacks. A perfect assassin.
Heck, if it's a 16th level build, then the level balance could be 12:4 for the extra feats and/or ASI.
What do you think?
Edited: In hindsight, I realize that being a 3rd level rogue means only a 2d6 sneak attack. Compared to the 7d6 of a 14th level rogue, it's terrible. So perhaps the level balancing could be 6:8. No invisibility, but a sneak attack of 4d6
I think the Assassin Rogue is a bit of a trap when considering how to build an assassin style character. Assassinate is an ability that reads much better than it plays.
A single class shadow monk makes a perfectly viable assassin and getting Diamond Soul, more Kit points and a clean ASI progression is a pretty big deal.
Assassins are great at... assassinating. All their abilities are tailored for that. Okay, that's not surprising, but how often do you need to assassinate someone? It's not especially good while normally travelling or in a typical dungeon crawl because you don't surprise your enemies often enough. What's more, you will only be hindered by your allies, the more of them the worst it gets.
Yes, a level 20 Assassin can guarantee a hit against anyone with Passive Perception of 27 or lower, can be even higher if you really want it to be. That hit can deal 20d6 or double that (40d6, kinda) if the enemy fails a DC 19 (probably) Con check. Be a Bugbear to turn it into 24d6, with double damage similar to rolling 48d6. That's a lot of damage, not even counting modifiers and the weapon's die. The problem is that, after that first round, the Assassin is just a normal rogue. Not that a normal Rogue is weak, not at all, but it's a thing to consider.
Rogues in general aren't good for multiclassing. They can be used as a dip but if they're your main class, you'll probably be better off keeping the rogue levels.
Yes, a level 20 Assassin can guarantee a hit against anyone with Passive Perception of 27 or lower, can be even higher if you really want it to be. That hit can deal 20d6 or double that (40d6, kinda) if the enemy fails a DC 19 (probably) Con check. Be a Bugbear to turn it into 24d6, with double damage similar to rolling 48d6. That's a lot of damage, not even counting modifiers and the weapon's die. The problem is that, after that first round, the Assassin is just a normal rogue. Not that a normal Rogue is weak, not at all, but it's a thing to consider.
And at level 20, your average monster is going have a LOT MORE hit points than the 168 average from 48d6.
True true. But it’s worth mentioning that the monk would be the main class, rogue would just be there to provide proficiencies, extra damage, and advantage on attacks.
Especially since martial die and sneak attack can stack, turning a 1d4 dagger into 1d8 + 2d6 and an automatic critical on the first round of combat.
The monk doesn't take advantage of criticals well. Your base damage die is small (even with martial arts) and you're adding very little bonus damage on one hit. This multiclass is trading away significant monk features to get a small boost to combat sometimes. And that's the thing. Assassinate is not a guaranteed ability. It fails a decent amount. Diamond Soul though? That protects you against every save all the time no matter what. That missing ASI? You wisdom or dexterity are really sad as the monk class demands a lot of these two abilities.
If you're absolutely set on abusing the Assassinate ability then I suggest building a single class rogue or a multiclass paladin/rogue. Or maybe a warlock/rogue. Auto crits with smites is actually a lot of damage, unlike the monk/rogue.
Here is an important decision to make. Do you want to simply play an assassin style character? Or do you want to play with the Assassinate ability? Because frankly, there are plenty of builds (including single class builds) that make much better assassins than the Assassin Rogue. Assassinate is really not a good ability. It reads super flashy though. Making Assassinate worth it generally involves combining it with smites (either paladin or warlock) and I would leave monk out of it if this is what you want to do.
Yes, a level 20 Assassin can guarantee a hit against anyone with Passive Perception of 27 or lower, can be even higher if you really want it to be. That hit can deal 20d6 or double that (40d6, kinda) if the enemy fails a DC 19 (probably) Con check. Be a Bugbear to turn it into 24d6, with double damage similar to rolling 48d6. That's a lot of damage, not even counting modifiers and the weapon's die. The problem is that, after that first round, the Assassin is just a normal rogue. Not that a normal Rogue is weak, not at all, but it's a thing to consider.
And at level 20, your average monster is going have a LOT MORE hit points than the 168 average from 48d6.
Not only that but CON checks at high levels are SUPER high. Its easily the best stat at that level for a lot of creatures.
Median gives you a better idea that there are lower amounts but most creatures at CR 10+ are gonna be a huge pile of HP due to the way monsters are made in 5e. Which means they will have a good save generally.
Yes, a level 20 Assassin can guarantee a hit against anyone with Passive Perception of 27 or lower, can be even higher if you really want it to be. That hit can deal 20d6 or double that (40d6, kinda) if the enemy fails a DC 19 (probably) Con check. Be a Bugbear to turn it into 24d6, with double damage similar to rolling 48d6. That's a lot of damage, not even counting modifiers and the weapon's die. The problem is that, after that first round, the Assassin is just a normal rogue. Not that a normal Rogue is weak, not at all, but it's a thing to consider.
And at level 20, your average monster is going have a LOT MORE hit points than the 168 average from 48d6.
Sure, but if you want single round, single target damage, which is what an assassin is for, there isn't even a single 9th level spell that can match that. Not counting the various imprisonment and banishment and similar things. Meteor Swarm basically gives 40d6 of damage but requires a save too, so it's equal to a normal rogue, except it also takes away your once-per-day 9th level spell slot. I'd say the two are matched per encounter but assassinate is better if you have more than one encounter per long rest against a single target.
Besides, while 168 average isn't huge, even the renowned Tarrasque has 676 HP, so 168 damage is 24.85207100591716% of their HP. That's only sneak attack, no any other bonus that will be applied. The Tarrasque has 10 Passive Perception so you're guaranteed to land the surprise. Although, it should be mentioned that the Tarrasque also has Legendary Resistance and +10 to CON so they'll succeed on that ST. On the other hand, even without said legendary resistance, the Tarrasque has advantage on ST against magic and immunity to fire so that's a bit of a problem for our comparisons. It also has resistance to non-magical weapons so the Rogue will need to either get their hand on a magical weapon, which breaks some of the comparisons. Indeed, a problematic foe, but I only wanted to use its HP for the argument, the rest is only secondary for the matter.
Yes, a level 20 Assassin can guarantee a hit against anyone with Passive Perception of 27 or lower, can be even higher if you really want it to be. That hit can deal 20d6 or double that (40d6, kinda) if the enemy fails a DC 19 (probably) Con check. Be a Bugbear to turn it into 24d6, with double damage similar to rolling 48d6. That's a lot of damage, not even counting modifiers and the weapon's die. The problem is that, after that first round, the Assassin is just a normal rogue. Not that a normal Rogue is weak, not at all, but it's a thing to consider.
And at level 20, your average monster is going have a LOT MORE hit points than the 168 average from 48d6.
Sure, but if you want single round, single target damage, which is what an assassin is for, there isn't even a single 9th level spell that can match that. Not counting the various imprisonment and banishment and similar things. Meteor Swarm basically gives 40d6 of damage but requires a save too, so it's equal to a normal rogue, except it also takes away your once-per-day 9th level spell slot. I'd say the two are matched per encounter but assassinate is better if you have more than one encounter per long rest against a single target.
Besides, while 168 average isn't huge, even the renowned Tarrasque has 676 HP, so 168 damage is 24.85207100591716% of their HP. That's only sneak attack, no any other bonus that will be applied. The Tarrasque has 10 Passive Perception so you're guaranteed to land the surprise. Although, it should be mentioned that the Tarrasque also has Legendary Resistance and +10 to CON so they'll succeed on that ST. On the other hand, even without said legendary resistance, the Tarrasque has advantage on ST against magic and immunity to fire so that's a bit of a problem for our comparisons. It also has resistance to non-magical weapons so the Rogue will need to either get their hand on a magical weapon, which breaks some of the comparisons. Indeed, a problematic foe, but I only wanted to use its HP for the argument, the rest is only secondary for the matter.
Yeah for me I am more noting the fact that high level creatures both have a high CON score and a lot of times legendary resistance.
Overall it reminds me of Open Hand monk where if they fail the save they are just dead. And they can try it multiple times a combat rather than one shot at the opening of combat.
Its not bad per say its just banking 90% of your class features on a couple of rolls for a whole fight. Some folks like that play style and I can't say if you do its a bad subclass for you.
monk-scout rogue its a fun combo, for speed, and if you take shadow monk and add tashas ranger with gloomstalker subclass it makes for a nice assassin that can escape, especially in darkness.
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monk-scout rogue its a fun combo, for speed, and if you take shadow monk and add tashas ranger with gloomstalker subclass it makes for a nice assassin that can escape, especially in darkness.
Yeah Gloomstalker 3/Shadow monk X is pretty fun. Add Hunters Mark to the punches is fun.
My posting scheduled is irregular: sometimes I can post twice a week, sometimes twice a day. I may also respond to quick questions, but ignore harder responses in favor of time.
My location is where my character for my home game is (we're doing the wild beyond the witchlight).
"The Doomvault... Probably full of unicorns and rainbows." -An imaginary quote
My posting scheduled is irregular: sometimes I can post twice a week, sometimes twice a day. I may also respond to quick questions, but ignore harder responses in favor of time.
My location is where my character for my home game is (we're doing the wild beyond the witchlight).
"The Doomvault... Probably full of unicorns and rainbows." -An imaginary quote
Here's an idea for a 14th level build:
Monk: Way of the Shadow (11) + Rogue: Assassin (3) + Alert Feat
Almost always first in combat, free teleportation and invisibility when in dim light or darkness, some handy stealth magic, and frequent advantage on attacks. A perfect assassin.
Heck, if it's a 16th level build, then the level balance could be 12:4 for the extra feats and/or ASI.
What do you think?
Edited: In hindsight, I realize that being a 3rd level rogue means only a 2d6 sneak attack. Compared to the 7d6 of a 14th level rogue, it's terrible. So perhaps the level balancing could be 6:8. No invisibility, but a sneak attack of 4d6
I think the Assassin Rogue is a bit of a trap when considering how to build an assassin style character. Assassinate is an ability that reads much better than it plays.
A single class shadow monk makes a perfectly viable assassin and getting Diamond Soul, more Kit points and a clean ASI progression is a pretty big deal.
Assassins are great at... assassinating. All their abilities are tailored for that. Okay, that's not surprising, but how often do you need to assassinate someone? It's not especially good while normally travelling or in a typical dungeon crawl because you don't surprise your enemies often enough. What's more, you will only be hindered by your allies, the more of them the worst it gets.
Yes, a level 20 Assassin can guarantee a hit against anyone with Passive Perception of 27 or lower, can be even higher if you really want it to be. That hit can deal 20d6 or double that (40d6, kinda) if the enemy fails a DC 19 (probably) Con check. Be a Bugbear to turn it into 24d6, with double damage similar to rolling 48d6. That's a lot of damage, not even counting modifiers and the weapon's die. The problem is that, after that first round, the Assassin is just a normal rogue. Not that a normal Rogue is weak, not at all, but it's a thing to consider.
Rogues in general aren't good for multiclassing. They can be used as a dip but if they're your main class, you'll probably be better off keeping the rogue levels.
Varielky
And at level 20, your average monster is going have a LOT MORE hit points than the 168 average from 48d6.
True true. But it’s worth mentioning that the monk would be the main class, rogue would just be there to provide proficiencies, extra damage, and advantage on attacks.
Especially since martial die and sneak attack can stack, turning a 1d4 dagger into 1d8 + 2d6 and an automatic critical on the first round of combat.
The monk doesn't take advantage of criticals well. Your base damage die is small (even with martial arts) and you're adding very little bonus damage on one hit. This multiclass is trading away significant monk features to get a small boost to combat sometimes. And that's the thing. Assassinate is not a guaranteed ability. It fails a decent amount. Diamond Soul though? That protects you against every save all the time no matter what. That missing ASI? You wisdom or dexterity are really sad as the monk class demands a lot of these two abilities.
If you're absolutely set on abusing the Assassinate ability then I suggest building a single class rogue or a multiclass paladin/rogue. Or maybe a warlock/rogue. Auto crits with smites is actually a lot of damage, unlike the monk/rogue.
Here is an important decision to make. Do you want to simply play an assassin style character? Or do you want to play with the Assassinate ability? Because frankly, there are plenty of builds (including single class builds) that make much better assassins than the Assassin Rogue. Assassinate is really not a good ability. It reads super flashy though. Making Assassinate worth it generally involves combining it with smites (either paladin or warlock) and I would leave monk out of it if this is what you want to do.
Not only that but CON checks at high levels are SUPER high. Its easily the best stat at that level for a lot of creatures.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/anxn5e/average_monster_save_bonuses_by_cr_mtof_not/
Median gives you a better idea that there are lower amounts but most creatures at CR 10+ are gonna be a huge pile of HP due to the way monsters are made in 5e. Which means they will have a good save generally.
Sure, but if you want single round, single target damage, which is what an assassin is for, there isn't even a single 9th level spell that can match that. Not counting the various imprisonment and banishment and similar things. Meteor Swarm basically gives 40d6 of damage but requires a save too, so it's equal to a normal rogue, except it also takes away your once-per-day 9th level spell slot. I'd say the two are matched per encounter but assassinate is better if you have more than one encounter per long rest against a single target.
Besides, while 168 average isn't huge, even the renowned Tarrasque has 676 HP, so 168 damage is 24.85207100591716% of their HP. That's only sneak attack, no any other bonus that will be applied. The Tarrasque has 10 Passive Perception so you're guaranteed to land the surprise.
Although, it should be mentioned that the Tarrasque also has Legendary Resistance and +10 to CON so they'll succeed on that ST. On the other hand, even without said legendary resistance, the Tarrasque has advantage on ST against magic and immunity to fire so that's a bit of a problem for our comparisons. It also has resistance to non-magical weapons so the Rogue will need to either get their hand on a magical weapon, which breaks some of the comparisons. Indeed, a problematic foe, but I only wanted to use its HP for the argument, the rest is only secondary for the matter.
Varielky
Yeah for me I am more noting the fact that high level creatures both have a high CON score and a lot of times legendary resistance.
Overall it reminds me of Open Hand monk where if they fail the save they are just dead. And they can try it multiple times a combat rather than one shot at the opening of combat.
Its not bad per say its just banking 90% of your class features on a couple of rolls for a whole fight. Some folks like that play style and I can't say if you do its a bad subclass for you.
monk-scout rogue its a fun combo, for speed, and if you take shadow monk and add tashas ranger with gloomstalker subclass it makes for a nice assassin that can escape, especially in darkness.
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My posting scheduled is irregular: sometimes I can post twice a week, sometimes twice a day. I may also respond to quick questions, but ignore harder responses in favor of time.
My location is where my character for my home game is (we're doing the wild beyond the witchlight).
"The Doomvault... Probably full of unicorns and rainbows." -An imaginary quote
Yeah Gloomstalker 3/Shadow monk X is pretty fun. Add Hunters Mark to the punches is fun.
I did a gloomstalker 3/ rogue 1/ monk 1 drow, but I find myself to be using zefer strike, not hunters mark.
The leveled version is ranger 6(gloomstalker)/rogue 5(scout)/monk 9(shadow).
Edit: now 3 levels of monk.
Pronouns: he/him/his.
My posting scheduled is irregular: sometimes I can post twice a week, sometimes twice a day. I may also respond to quick questions, but ignore harder responses in favor of time.
My location is where my character for my home game is (we're doing the wild beyond the witchlight).
"The Doomvault... Probably full of unicorns and rainbows." -An imaginary quote
Thats a good spell too as you get to really max that first round and get where you need to be.
The no opportunity attacks is my favorite part.
Pronouns: he/him/his.
My posting scheduled is irregular: sometimes I can post twice a week, sometimes twice a day. I may also respond to quick questions, but ignore harder responses in favor of time.
My location is where my character for my home game is (we're doing the wild beyond the witchlight).
"The Doomvault... Probably full of unicorns and rainbows." -An imaginary quote
Yeah its amazing what getting to the right spot right away can do for an encounter.