Because people want vampiric superpowers without having to pay for them.
Less bitterly...I assume because it rubs people the wrong way that a critter loses all sense of its previous identity when it's transformed. Likely, these are folks who've never made the realization that all tieflings, all aasimar, all genasi, and a few other such species are technically also 'add-ons', in that they are a "species" which is "whatever else you were, except you use these traits instead because Infernal/Celestial/Elemental energies in your blood changed you." One can be a tiefling, aasimar, or genasi of any other species, depending on the lore of one's world - but nobody ever complains about those because tiffles, assmen, and not-genies all happen at birth, rather than something you can 'become'.
Frankly, nobody's becoming a Reborn without losing all their previous traits anyways through DETH, and someone who's hit with the incredibly powerful, all-pervasive curse of dhampirism or Hexbloodedness kinda feels like they shouldn't keep their entire species for free. Proficiencies and such they've been actively using, yes, obviously - that's a case-by-case thing for specific DM arbitration. But asking for the entire rule system to be sculpted around the case of Dhampkocra or Hextortles just strikes me as being unnecessarily obnoxious - and I like the idea of player freedom and creativity.
For me it is just the culture and learned aspects go away just like the physical ones do. You become a Dhamphir and suddenly you forget how to speak in your native tongue and everything you learned during the weapons training your parents forced you to go to for 50 years. But hey! You know those spells and class abilities you learned last week, yeah that is still there.
These Lineages just work better as a starting race than a thing you become later. You don't become a Tiefling or Genasi, you are born that way. I would have the same problem in those races if you could pick them up mid way through the campaign as well.
I don't like the loss of cultural abilities(Maybe add a lineage proficiency that can be replaced by one from your race? Like elf dhampir get perception instead of some other proficiency), but people who want to be an eagle with fangs just don't make sense.
Lineage by itself as is just isn't enough. I love the idea of divorcing race and culture, but to make Lineage work along side the existing races, there should be separate Cultures to choose from just like you do with Backgrounds and all pre existing races should be updated to fit the optional Lineage/Culture system.
I think the blank slate works without fault with the Reborn. As a Reborn, whatever the PC was before hand was (part of) the raw materials that brought the PC back through necromancy or construct animation. The PC really ain't the PC as originally created anymore, so having your natural armor turning into a soft hide or a hide perpetually flaking "leather dandruff" and a lot of who you were culturally being "just gone". The Reborn actually has features where you can even enact the drama of almost touching who you were, but at great distance.
Hexblood and Dhampyr both involve a metamorphosis too, where something "other" than "you the PC" has become manifest through what you used to be. It's just in the Reborn the "echo of who you were" is actually played out in some of the lineage's features. In many ways the vampiric and Fey manifestations of their respective lineages are an even more powerful assault on the character's identity. Yes, you forget where you came form and some of the arts they taught you because YOU'RE HUNGRY, consumed with a hunger to the degree that you'll walk on walls and ceilings to sate it.
In a way, these are sort of PCs reincarnate, just with a stronger physical resonance to the PC's past life. At least that's how I've reconciled the Gothlines (tm, MIdnightplat 2021) being adopted by PC to make sense without saying just saying "game balance!"
I am fine with the transformation being a physical and emotional change, however loosing all of the knowledge you had prior to the transformation should apply across the board. You forget the languages you have been speaking your whole life, but class abilities that you picked up you keep?
For Reborn still doesn't make sense. You are just the pieces of what your were repurposed into a whole new thing, but even then you are still a level 7 wizard with a sailor background? Why would you keep that knowledge but not the years of Dwarven Weapons training or that cantrip you learned in High Elf summer camp?
The answer is that if these answers aren't clear in the context of the story, the DM probably shouldn't allow someone to change their lineage mid-adventure to a Gothic one. Which is why I tell people that this is a case-by-case solution - if a table has arrived at a story where one of its members has suffered this sort of wrenching shift, the details of that shift should be up to the table.
We're talking magical processes so what gets dug into and scooped out and what doesn't can be a little arbitrary. I would probably actually drop the background for something I'd likely homebrew as "transformed (fey/undead/etc)." Your class features were "useful" to whatever power that consumed you in transformation so it remained.
Imperfect analogy but if you know your Transformers lore think Megatron into Galvatron. Still a 17th Level Oathbreaker (plus a dip into Warlock with a planet eater patron and Pact of the Fusion Cannon), but a lot of the Decepticon-ness has been wiped away. Seekers into Sweepers too. Orion Pax into Opitmus Prime would be a celestial type equivalent. Hot Rod into Rhodimus Prime is some Quintesson Aboleth shennanigans we don't talk about.
Also I'm going to lean into my hard core interpretation of Reincarnate and say lineage adoptions/consumption probably had the same effect if a someone ever thought about their lineage/race derived proficiencies.
Like I said during the arguments back when they were in full swing... 99.9% of the time, people will start off as a dhampir/risen/changeling, and won't be transitioning during play. Indeed, I suspect that the only reason that the transition bits came up is because, well, vampires bite and transform people all the time.
We should really be looking at dhampir & co. as a starting race, and not something that happens mid play.
Like I said during the arguments back when they were in full swing... 99.9% of the time, people will start off as a dhampir/risen/changeling, and won't be transitioning during play. Indeed, I suspect that the only reason that the transition bits came up is because, well, vampires bite and transform people all the time.
We should really be looking at dhampir & co. as a starting race, and not something that happens mid play.
This is what I was thinking. It did not appear to me from the UA that any of the lineages were meant to be implemented in the middle of the game. I'm sure those situations will rise up, but changing race mid game is mostly within the realm of homebrew anyway (outside of the previously mentioned reincarnate spell)
Edit: I also think it is worth mentioning that the reincarnate spell won't come up in these situations either because RAW you can't use it to turn into any of the races/lineages outside of the PHB
Like I said back when this was fresh, as well...vampires biting people do not result in dhampirs. It results in vampire spawn, and if the spawn gets very ******* lucky, a regular-ass vampire. Dhampirs are what happens when Something Weird Happens, and it usually requires a deliberate and pre-planned corruption of the process of vampirisation. I get that PCs are the exception to any rules, but a DM who's allowing a mid-campaign species transition is homebrewing the shit out of this anyways. What's a little more homebrew?
Well, I think part of it is a fundamental disagreement / misunderstanding over what Lineages are. A couple times now... I've seen something to the effect of
”i don't see the problem, obviously Lineages are <insert explanation that others don't agree with>."
I include myself in that. Depending on what you think Lineages are changes things...
Like I said during the arguments back when they were in full swing... 99.9% of the time, people will start off as a dhampir/risen/changeling, and won't be transitioning during play. Indeed, I suspect that the only reason that the transition bits came up is because, well, vampires bite and transform people all the time.
We should really be looking at dhampir & co. as a starting race, and not something that happens mid play.
This is what I was thinking. It did not appear to me from the UA that any of the lineages were meant to be implemented in the middle of the game. I'm sure those situations will rise up, but changing race mid game is mostly within the realm of homebrew anyway (outside of the previously mentioned reincarnate spell)
Edit: I also think it is worth mentioning that the reincarnate spell won't come up in these situations either because RAW you can't use it to turn into any of the races/lineages outside of the PHB
Re: the Gothlines (tm, Midnightplat 2021) being taken on midgame, this isn't speculative thinking but the argument is predicated on the first chunk of text after the greyscale text:
This document features three new race options to playtest for player characters in D&D:
• Dhampir • Hexblood • Reborn
These options are special; you can choose one at character creation or at an appropriate time later in a campaign, transforming your character.
That's right from the rules as proposed in the UA. It explicitly allows a PC to become something else at a later point in the game, but in the becoming per the best guidance of DDB's character generator showing us how it works, you abandoned your race. Which is exactly what happens when [Tooltip Not Found] happens to you. I wasn't saying it was the spell, but the process is clearly analogous. Other editions people were able to take on "templates" for lycanthropy etc when a player was afflicted, 5e evidently doesn't want to do that. "
If you choose a lineage, you might have once been a member of another race, but you aren’t any longer. You now possess only your lineage’s racial traits.
You're a Seeker becoming a Swoop not Bumblee becoming Goldbug. You're still Cybertronion, sort of, but a lot of you isn't really you anymore. I hated that movie but love how useful this analogy is to my own understanding of the Gothlines, informed buy Simon Furman's use of the Dead Universe in his IDW run.
Really this abandonment or loss of self is actually a great RP hook to a character arc that winds up going this route. Some who transform may be victims, others might have willingly wanted to leave who they were behind. There's great story potential there. If you want to get your old features back, maybe that can be realized through feats rewarded as the character advances and recovers some of their old identity for whatever reason. These are fun and I'd say more so that the Potato Head (tm, Hasbro) insert lineage into an available slot and keep all your other plugged in features approach.
Re: the Gothlines (tm, Midnightplat 2021) being taken on midgame, this isn't speculative thinking but the argument is predicated on the first chunk of text after the greyscale text:
We are all aware of what it says. However....
How often is this going to actually happen mid-game? That blurb is great character background, and very likely to occur pre-game, but hardly indictive of mid-game change.
All the arguments revolve around mid-game transformations, which is going to be such a tiny minority of games that it's not worth WotC making rules for it.
And, as a char gen choice... It's easy enough to justify anything as part of your background.
Re: the Gothlines (tm, Midnightplat 2021) being taken on midgame, this isn't speculative thinking but the argument is predicated on the first chunk of text after the greyscale text:
We are all aware of what it says. However....
How often is this going to actually happen mid-game? That blurb is great character background, and very likely to occur pre-game, but hardly indictive of mid-game change.
All the arguments revolve around mid-game transformations, which is going to be such a tiny minority of games that it's not worth WotC making rules for it.
And, as a char gen choice... It's easy enough to justify anything as part of your background.
Ya remember templates being applied to characters midgame? When rules allowed how often did that happen in games? This is like that, but probably with more consideration before committing because of the transformative aspect. Having a character "transform" into something other than they were at char gen, while uncommon, is actually not in fact exceedingly rare and is in fact something people inquire about, it happens in at least one 5e adventure. Do we want to do an audit of threads started with "how do I become a werewolf?" "can my character become a demon lord etc". These options entertain that appetite within the player base. You are free to say "never in my game"; but to pretend it's a non issue and all this argument is nothing is unfairly discrediting those who are contending it. Your dismissal is a diss to the participants who have concern of how their games may be played based on the knowledge of how their players play, and I don't think it's warranted to devalue the discussion like that.
To reiterate, for those invested in story where character can be more dynamic than a rising curve, the new options are FUN with possibility. Maybe the character's a victim in the transformation and an arc can involve recovering their identity in some way (mechanically delivered through the acquisition of feats in line with the old character). Maybe it's elective transformation in rejection of self. These are for a book with gothic horror at the core and so many gothic tropes involve self-loathing and/or self-destruction. Maybe it's the I must abandon myself to become the monster that can fight the monsters trope. There is cool to be made of this stuff, if you accept what's actually offered in the write up; but no one has to.
Why does everyone complain about lineages replacing physical traits when they can just not play a tortle reborn?
I have a weird sense of humor.
I also make maps.(That's a link)
Because people want vampiric superpowers without having to pay for them.
Less bitterly...I assume because it rubs people the wrong way that a critter loses all sense of its previous identity when it's transformed. Likely, these are folks who've never made the realization that all tieflings, all aasimar, all genasi, and a few other such species are technically also 'add-ons', in that they are a "species" which is "whatever else you were, except you use these traits instead because Infernal/Celestial/Elemental energies in your blood changed you." One can be a tiefling, aasimar, or genasi of any other species, depending on the lore of one's world - but nobody ever complains about those because tiffles, assmen, and not-genies all happen at birth, rather than something you can 'become'.
Frankly, nobody's becoming a Reborn without losing all their previous traits anyways through DETH, and someone who's hit with the incredibly powerful, all-pervasive curse of dhampirism or Hexbloodedness kinda feels like they shouldn't keep their entire species for free. Proficiencies and such they've been actively using, yes, obviously - that's a case-by-case thing for specific DM arbitration. But asking for the entire rule system to be sculpted around the case of Dhampkocra or Hextortles just strikes me as being unnecessarily obnoxious - and I like the idea of player freedom and creativity.
Please do not contact or message me.
For me it is just the culture and learned aspects go away just like the physical ones do. You become a Dhamphir and suddenly you forget how to speak in your native tongue and everything you learned during the weapons training your parents forced you to go to for 50 years. But hey! You know those spells and class abilities you learned last week, yeah that is still there.
These Lineages just work better as a starting race than a thing you become later. You don't become a Tiefling or Genasi, you are born that way. I would have the same problem in those races if you could pick them up mid way through the campaign as well.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I don't like the loss of cultural abilities(Maybe add a lineage proficiency that can be replaced by one from your race? Like elf dhampir get perception instead of some other proficiency), but people who want to be an eagle with fangs just don't make sense.
I have a weird sense of humor.
I also make maps.(That's a link)
Lineage by itself as is just isn't enough. I love the idea of divorcing race and culture, but to make Lineage work along side the existing races, there should be separate Cultures to choose from just like you do with Backgrounds and all pre existing races should be updated to fit the optional Lineage/Culture system.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I think the blank slate works without fault with the Reborn. As a Reborn, whatever the PC was before hand was (part of) the raw materials that brought the PC back through necromancy or construct animation. The PC really ain't the PC as originally created anymore, so having your natural armor turning into a soft hide or a hide perpetually flaking "leather dandruff" and a lot of who you were culturally being "just gone". The Reborn actually has features where you can even enact the drama of almost touching who you were, but at great distance.
Hexblood and Dhampyr both involve a metamorphosis too, where something "other" than "you the PC" has become manifest through what you used to be. It's just in the Reborn the "echo of who you were" is actually played out in some of the lineage's features. In many ways the vampiric and Fey manifestations of their respective lineages are an even more powerful assault on the character's identity. Yes, you forget where you came form and some of the arts they taught you because YOU'RE HUNGRY, consumed with a hunger to the degree that you'll walk on walls and ceilings to sate it.
In a way, these are sort of PCs reincarnate, just with a stronger physical resonance to the PC's past life. At least that's how I've reconciled the Gothlines (tm, MIdnightplat 2021) being adopted by PC to make sense without saying just saying "game balance!"
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I am fine with the transformation being a physical and emotional change, however loosing all of the knowledge you had prior to the transformation should apply across the board. You forget the languages you have been speaking your whole life, but class abilities that you picked up you keep?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
For Reborn still doesn't make sense. You are just the pieces of what your were repurposed into a whole new thing, but even then you are still a level 7 wizard with a sailor background? Why would you keep that knowledge but not the years of Dwarven Weapons training or that cantrip you learned in High Elf summer camp?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
The answer is that if these answers aren't clear in the context of the story, the DM probably shouldn't allow someone to change their lineage mid-adventure to a Gothic one. Which is why I tell people that this is a case-by-case solution - if a table has arrived at a story where one of its members has suffered this sort of wrenching shift, the details of that shift should be up to the table.
Please do not contact or message me.
We're talking magical processes so what gets dug into and scooped out and what doesn't can be a little arbitrary. I would probably actually drop the background for something I'd likely homebrew as "transformed (fey/undead/etc)." Your class features were "useful" to whatever power that consumed you in transformation so it remained.
Imperfect analogy but if you know your Transformers lore think Megatron into Galvatron. Still a 17th Level Oathbreaker (plus a dip into Warlock with a planet eater patron and Pact of the Fusion Cannon), but a lot of the Decepticon-ness has been wiped away. Seekers into Sweepers too. Orion Pax into Opitmus Prime would be a celestial type equivalent. Hot Rod into Rhodimus Prime is some Quintesson Aboleth shennanigans we don't talk about.
Also I'm going to lean into my hard core interpretation of Reincarnate and say lineage adoptions/consumption probably had the same effect if a someone ever thought about their lineage/race derived proficiencies.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I want Pact of the Fusion Cannon...
Please do not contact or message me.
Like I said during the arguments back when they were in full swing... 99.9% of the time, people will start off as a dhampir/risen/changeling, and won't be transitioning during play. Indeed, I suspect that the only reason that the transition bits came up is because, well, vampires bite and transform people all the time.
We should really be looking at dhampir & co. as a starting race, and not something that happens mid play.
This is what I was thinking. It did not appear to me from the UA that any of the lineages were meant to be implemented in the middle of the game. I'm sure those situations will rise up, but changing race mid game is mostly within the realm of homebrew anyway (outside of the previously mentioned reincarnate spell)
Edit: I also think it is worth mentioning that the reincarnate spell won't come up in these situations either because RAW you can't use it to turn into any of the races/lineages outside of the PHB
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Like I said back when this was fresh, as well...vampires biting people do not result in dhampirs. It results in vampire spawn, and if the spawn gets very ******* lucky, a regular-ass vampire. Dhampirs are what happens when Something Weird Happens, and it usually requires a deliberate and pre-planned corruption of the process of vampirisation. I get that PCs are the exception to any rules, but a DM who's allowing a mid-campaign species transition is homebrewing the shit out of this anyways. What's a little more homebrew?
Please do not contact or message me.
Well, I think part of it is a fundamental disagreement / misunderstanding over what Lineages are. A couple times now... I've seen something to the effect of
”i don't see the problem, obviously Lineages are <insert explanation that others don't agree with>."
I include myself in that. Depending on what you think Lineages are changes things...
Re: the Gothlines (tm, Midnightplat 2021) being taken on midgame, this isn't speculative thinking but the argument is predicated on the first chunk of text after the greyscale text:
That's right from the rules as proposed in the UA. It explicitly allows a PC to become something else at a later point in the game, but in the becoming per the best guidance of DDB's character generator showing us how it works, you abandoned your race. Which is exactly what happens when [Tooltip Not Found] happens to you. I wasn't saying it was the spell, but the process is clearly analogous. Other editions people were able to take on "templates" for lycanthropy etc when a player was afflicted, 5e evidently doesn't want to do that. "
You're a Seeker becoming a Swoop not Bumblee becoming Goldbug. You're still Cybertronion, sort of, but a lot of you isn't really you anymore. I hated that movie but love how useful this analogy is to my own understanding of the Gothlines, informed buy Simon Furman's use of the Dead Universe in his IDW run.
Really this abandonment or loss of self is actually a great RP hook to a character arc that winds up going this route. Some who transform may be victims, others might have willingly wanted to leave who they were behind. There's great story potential there. If you want to get your old features back, maybe that can be realized through feats rewarded as the character advances and recovers some of their old identity for whatever reason. These are fun and I'd say more so that the Potato Head (tm, Hasbro) insert lineage into an available slot and keep all your other plugged in features approach.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
We are all aware of what it says. However....
How often is this going to actually happen mid-game? That blurb is great character background, and very likely to occur pre-game, but hardly indictive of mid-game change.
All the arguments revolve around mid-game transformations, which is going to be such a tiny minority of games that it's not worth WotC making rules for it.
And, as a char gen choice... It's easy enough to justify anything as part of your background.
Ya remember templates being applied to characters midgame? When rules allowed how often did that happen in games? This is like that, but probably with more consideration before committing because of the transformative aspect. Having a character "transform" into something other than they were at char gen, while uncommon, is actually not in fact exceedingly rare and is in fact something people inquire about, it happens in at least one 5e adventure. Do we want to do an audit of threads started with "how do I become a werewolf?" "can my character become a demon lord etc". These options entertain that appetite within the player base. You are free to say "never in my game"; but to pretend it's a non issue and all this argument is nothing is unfairly discrediting those who are contending it. Your dismissal is a diss to the participants who have concern of how their games may be played based on the knowledge of how their players play, and I don't think it's warranted to devalue the discussion like that.
To reiterate, for those invested in story where character can be more dynamic than a rising curve, the new options are FUN with possibility. Maybe the character's a victim in the transformation and an arc can involve recovering their identity in some way (mechanically delivered through the acquisition of feats in line with the old character). Maybe it's elective transformation in rejection of self. These are for a book with gothic horror at the core and so many gothic tropes involve self-loathing and/or self-destruction. Maybe it's the I must abandon myself to become the monster that can fight the monsters trope. There is cool to be made of this stuff, if you accept what's actually offered in the write up; but no one has to.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.