Those mechanical benefits are now just Darkvision, Fey Ancestry, and two Skill proficiencies. Ability Scores are tied to background, so you can't get +2 Charisma and two +1s.
That reads like a boring "race" to play as. Both every variety of elf, and bugbear, are more interesting.
Well, that's an opinion, isn't it.
You know, I just have to interject here. Having read your comments above, while I don't necessarily agree with Snow on every single point, I find nothing wrong with what he's saying. In fact I strongly agree with most of it. And well, it bothers me that your most recent response to him seems to straddle the line between disagreement and making an accusation that someone is engaging in... what, exactly? Incorrect thought? And for why? Because he wants to play a character with a heritage that might almost be unique in the campaign world, while you unironically say that half-race characters shouldn't be special? I'm sorry, but that doesn't seem right to me.
Every person wants to play a character that is special. And while there are numerous ways to accomplish this, speaking for myself alone, for me that sometimes means playing a half-elf. And on the occasion where I get that itch, no, I don't want to play a character who is mixed through an act of handwavium alone. No, I don't want to play an Elf or a human with the serial numbers filed off. Those things don't speak to me. What I want is to play a half-elf (or sometimes a half-orc).
Why?
Because they are the outsider. Because they do stand out. Because they do have qualities that no one else does. And perhaps even because sometimes, those things mean that it is hard for them. And no, I don't just want the fluff, I want a little bit of that particular crunch too. That's what I like. That's what I want. And I don't appreciate the possibility that it might be reduced into irrelevance. Not one bit.
>>Again, you're attempting to "other" certain player characters.
You shouldn't make statements like that.
>>Mixed peoples, like half-elves and half-orcs, are no more deserving of entries than anyone else. They're relics you're desperately trying to cling to, and all it'll do is cause more problems.
Otherwise, you can have my +2 CHA half-elf Paladin when you pry her from my cold dead hands.
Well, the good news is you can still play that in the new version and literally nobody is stopping you.
Unless the DM is running the new version. Or I'm at an official event. Or participating in organized play. But yeah, other than all those people who would stop me, I should be good.
In none of those scenarios are you prevented from playing a half elf paladin with a charisma bonus.
Otherwise, you can have my +2 CHA half-elf Paladin when you pry her from my cold dead hands.
Well, the good news is you can still play that in the new version and literally nobody is stopping you.
Unless the DM is running the new version. Or I'm at an official event. Or participating in organized play. But yeah, other than all those people who would stop me, I should be good.
In none of those scenarios are you prevented from playing a half elf paladin with a charisma bonus.
Otherwise, you can have my +2 CHA half-elf Paladin when you pry her from my cold dead hands.
Well, the good news is you can still play that in the new version and literally nobody is stopping you.
Unless the DM is running the new version. Or I'm at an official event. Or participating in organized play. But yeah, other than all those people who would stop me, I should be good.
In none of those scenarios are you prevented from playing a half elf paladin with a charisma bonus.
From reading through all the responses it seems to come down to this:
Some people want to play multi-racial characters for the story.
Some people want to play a Half-Elf or Half-Orc for the mechanical benefits in addition to story.
The new rules only give us "Story" options, there is no mechanical benefit to them because you choose the benefits of only one parent's race.
So maybe I should rephrase why I am upset about losing the Half-Elf (and the reason it is currently one of the most popular races to play). I want the mechanical benefits of the current Half-Elf. I can't get those benefits by default as part of my race under the new proposed rules. So either leave the Half-Elf as is, or give is a new base race that is the current Half-Elf mechanics with a new name so that people offended by it won't be offended.
Let's change the Half-Elf to the Jedozzi. They are a race of humanoids from deep in the forests that have "thin places" that border on the Feywild. The are mechanically Half-elves, but are now no-longer "offensive".
Half-elves and Half-Orcs have been a thing in core D&D ever since 2nd edition, and I honestly did not like them dealing with them the way they have... while adding the Orc as a core race along with the Ardling.
Bear with me: I am not against the concept of making mixed-races a thing. I don't have anything against, say, half-dwarves (the other half being human). But I think this is poorly implemented. Mixed races deserve better as a concept that just a sidebar and ALL extremes. The established race fantasy of the half-elf and half-orc is being caught in the middle of two worlds and I don't see the mixed-race sidebar helping with that.
I could have a family made of an human and an elf parent... and they could have three children. Two see well at night, don't sleep so much as daydream to rest, and they have innate magic. But the other is blind as a mole in the dark... but hey, he knows more things and can pull of an interest feat.
Doesn't add up to me. Again, extremes when they should be nothing but.
Think on it: PHB 2014 gives us a couple of pages on multiclassing - which is in essence mixing two important core features. Multiclassing wasn't a sidebar.
The August playtest gives us a recipe for making backgrounds and then pages of sample backgrounds. Why not making the Mixed-Race entry just as extensive? If there were established mixed races, why not do like backgrounds and give us a sample that's the kind of melting pot we've seen from Half-Elves and Half-Orcs in the past... That way at least we'd have the classical half-elf and half-orc more within reach, but the freedom to do other mixed-races as defined in the sidebar.
Yea. It's... really not. Like, imagine if they included a rule saying you could swap around any racial feats. Would you be as happy playing, I dunno, a dwarf wizard if you were just playing a dwarf but with the elf racial traits? You're not a dwarf. You're a short elf with a beard.
Those mechanical benefits are now just Darkvision, Fey Ancestry, and two Skill proficiencies. Ability Scores are tied to background, so you can't get +2 Charisma and two +1s.
That reads like a boring "race" to play as. Both every variety of elf, and bugbear, are more interesting.
Well, that's an opinion, isn't it.
You know, I just have to interject here. Having read your comments above, while I don't necessarily agree with Snow on every single point, I find nothing wrong with what he's saying. In fact I strongly agree with most of it. And well, it bothers me that your most recent response to him seems to straddle the line between disagreement and making an accusation that someone is engaging in... what, exactly? Incorrect thought? And for why? Because he wants to play a character with a heritage that might almost be unique in the campaign world, while you unironically say that half-race characters shouldn't be special? I'm sorry, but that doesn't seem right to me.
Every person wants to play a character that is special. And while there are numerous ways to accomplish this, speaking for myself alone, for me that sometimes means playing a half-elf. And on the occasion where I get that itch, no, I don't want to play a character who is mixed through an act of handwavium alone. No, I don't want to play an Elf or a human with the serial numbers filed off. Those things don't speak to me. What I want is to play a half-elf (or sometimes a half-orc).
Why?
Because they are the outsider. Because they do stand out. Because they do have qualities that no one else does. And perhaps even because sometimes, those things mean that it is hard for them. And no, I don't just want the fluff, I want a little bit of that particular crunch too. That's what I like. That's what I want. And I don't appreciate the possibility that it might be reduced into irrelevance. Not one bit.
>>Again, you're attempting to "other" certain player characters.
You shouldn't make statements like that.
>>Mixed peoples, like half-elves and half-orcs, are no more deserving of entries than anyone else. They're relics you're desperately trying to cling to, and all it'll do is cause more problems.
Hard, and I do mean hard, disagree.
You know what? You didn't have to interject, here. Rather, you chose to. And I don't think you thought it through all the way.
Are we just supposed to accept that half-elf and half-orc are the only mixed races worthy of consideration? Are the other halves only for humans, like they've always been; and are in Pathfinder? What about a dwarf/orc hybrid? Should they use half-orc stats, or would they be relegated to a generic template? What about an elf/dragonborn? A dwarf/hobgoblin? An elf/orc? Who is worthy of consideration, and who isn't?
You're both arguing in favor of tradition, and for no other sake than to maintain that tradition. It's not a great position to be in.
Yea. It's... really not. Like, imagine if they included a rule saying you could swap around any racial feats. Would you be as happy playing, I dunno, a dwarf wizard if you were just playing a dwarf but with the elf racial traits? You're not a dwarf. You're a short elf with a beard.
So when you say you want to play a half elf, you aren't actually there to play a half elf, you're there for the darkvision and bonus proficiencies?
Fair enough I guess, but would be a lot easier to just start from there.
No. It almost doesn't matter what the bonuses for the half-elf are (I mean, they have to make sense). Just that they are the half-elf bonuses. If you play a tiefling, but ignore the tiefling racials entirely and replace them with, I dunno, a bugbears... Are you a tiefling or are you a bugbear that just happens to look like a tiefling?
It's not so much the mechanical aspect or power so much as it is that it's a mechanic specific to that race. If the half-elves literally got nothing while every other race got... something... as much as I'd want them to give half-elves a buff I would feel wrong just taking another races bonuses and then claiming they were half-elf ones.
On the story aspect it's insulting to see multiple half-races reduced down to something that's probably going to end up crammed in some sidebar with MAYBE a tiny chart if we're lucky. On the mechanical aspect it doesn't feel right to be claiming another races abilities as my own. I get that we can't designate stuff for every single combination so having a general option is useful in that regard, but it doesn't feel RIGHT to take an elves night-vision just because I'm a half-elf. That they get it is wonderful; but it's not only not why I pick the race (though I admittedly like it) and I'd feel the same about any other trait, even a negative one. I don't care what it is so long as it's part of my/my character's identity in some aspect as a half-elf.
Those mechanical benefits are now just Darkvision, Fey Ancestry, and two Skill proficiencies. Ability Scores are tied to background, so you can't get +2 Charisma and two +1s.
That reads like a boring "race" to play as. Both every variety of elf, and bugbear, are more interesting.
Well, that's an opinion, isn't it.
You know, I just have to interject here. Having read your comments above, while I don't necessarily agree with Snow on every single point, I find nothing wrong with what he's saying. In fact I strongly agree with most of it. And well, it bothers me that your most recent response to him seems to straddle the line between disagreement and making an accusation that someone is engaging in... what, exactly? Incorrect thought? And for why? Because he wants to play a character with a heritage that might almost be unique in the campaign world, while you unironically say that half-race characters shouldn't be special? I'm sorry, but that doesn't seem right to me.
Every person wants to play a character that is special. And while there are numerous ways to accomplish this, speaking for myself alone, for me that sometimes means playing a half-elf. And on the occasion where I get that itch, no, I don't want to play a character who is mixed through an act of handwavium alone. No, I don't want to play an Elf or a human with the serial numbers filed off. Those things don't speak to me. What I want is to play a half-elf (or sometimes a half-orc).
Why?
Because they are the outsider. Because they do stand out. Because they do have qualities that no one else does. And perhaps even because sometimes, those things mean that it is hard for them. And no, I don't just want the fluff, I want a little bit of that particular crunch too. That's what I like. That's what I want. And I don't appreciate the possibility that it might be reduced into irrelevance. Not one bit.
>>Again, you're attempting to "other" certain player characters.
You shouldn't make statements like that.
>>Mixed peoples, like half-elves and half-orcs, are no more deserving of entries than anyone else. They're relics you're desperately trying to cling to, and all it'll do is cause more problems.
Hard, and I do mean hard, disagree.
You know what? You didn't have to interject, here. Rather, you chose to. And I don't think you thought it through all the way.
Uh... yes. I did choose to do that, and I even thought it through too. I mean, I literally told you.
Look, here's the thing. You're talking about some kind of injustice, and while I don't quite understand it (or why you're treating it as a matter of such gravity) you're entitled to it. All I can tell you is that I don't see it, nor is that why I'm here. I'm just sitting here asking to keep my half-elf as is. That's literally all I want. Frankly the whole situation seems like the most absurd 1st world problem imaginable, yet here we are arguing about it for some reason.
As for the other half-races, yes. Use the template. Or, implement a genuine mix and match system such as the poster a couple messages up suggested- take your pick. I'd be all for either option, or whatever else works well. As far as I can tell at first glance nobody in this entire thread has indicated that they would be against any of this. But then you seem irate about that anyway, and then for some reason you mention Pathfinder which is a system I have zero knowledge about, and I'm just left scratching my head over the whole thing. It's very perplexing.
>>Yes, you're both advocating for "othering" other players. Such behavior should be called for what it is.
Well, that's just uncalled for.
Allow me to echo a little bit of what I told the other guy. Clearly, you have a concern, and I'm sure your heart's in the right place. But you aren't the gatekeeper. You aren't even "a" gatekeeper. I urge you to remember that you speak for yourself, and no one else. And for the same reason you certainly don't get to be a moral compass dictating how I or anyone should feel about anything, which includes playing the game this way or that. Your insinuation that anyone should be ashamed for anything is way out of line. Way out of line.
One last thing. You don't know my situation, just like I don't know yours. However, if I get to a point where I feel offended by anything, feel excluded, or have any other strong feeling, I'll happily tell you. You don't get to tell me when that is, and you don't get to tell me how I should feel, just like I don't get to tell you how to feel. That's not your burden, and I'll thank you for it.
In the meantime, if you would like to talk about mechanics, potential player options, or the implications of changes to the playtest rules I'm happy to do that. That seems to be what this forum is for, but hey what do I know. On the other hand, if you want to discuss philosophy then frankly I think that train left the station when you chose to respond the way you did.
You know, it's great for you that you didn't feel othered by the Half Elf and Half Orc portrayal, but me saying "we" felt some kind of way is not a blanket statement saying everyone felt that way. I literally gave an example of someone else beside me, which counts as an "us." Generally when something is hurting someone or making them uncomfortable saying, "Well it doesn't make me uncomfortable so you're just going to have to put up with it" is .. less than good.
Saying that it makes people, makes me specifically and other people I've talked to and not just hypothetical "people," feel othered isn't telling you how to feel. Saying "this is not an uncomfortable thing" is telling other people how to feel by invalidating our feelings. You're saying that no, it is not that way and thus you should not or cannot feel that way. That's not cool.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I'd actually argue that it is also hurtful in the new UA rules. The only thing you get from one part of your bi-racial heritage is cosmetic in nature. You're really just one of them and the other is just a flavor option.
I actually like the rules set forth in Taledori Reborn by Critical Role. Select three traits. One from one, two from another and try to balance it out. GM approves. So if you did a human and a halfling you could take Skilled or Lucky but not both.
I'd actually argue that it is also hurtful in the new UA rules.
Is this how it actually makes you feel or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? Because I'm telling you how things actually make me feel.
Yes it does make it feel that the way they have it that it ignores half their heritage. That it is just cosmetic. That one may not actually be considered half their heritage by just making it cosmetic. Imagine saying that to someone in the real world. We don't have to as even today it is said.
I'd actually argue that it is also hurtful in the new UA rules.
Is this how it actually makes you feel or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? Because I'm telling you how things actually make me feel.
Yes it does make it feel that the way they have it that it ignores half their heritage. That it is just cosmetic. That one may not actually be considered half their heritage by just making it cosmetic. Imagine saying that to someone in the real world. We don't have to as even today it is said.
Of course no one would say that, because it makes no sense. But we also don't get inherent stats and features from our heritage, that's bioessentialism and it's a pretty racist mode of thought. The way they are handling multiracial characters in the playtest, on the other hand, treats multiracial heritage as a lore detail about a character. It doesn't treat multiracial people as something completely alien from and actually encourages there to be a blend of influences in the character where it matters, in the Background. It allows the honoring of the entire heritage and person without creating some sort of special exclusionary classification for them.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
... However, if I get to a point where I feel offended by anything, feel excluded, or have any other strong feeling, I'll happily tell you. You don't get to tell me when that is, and you don't get to tell me how I should feel, just like I don't get to tell you how to feel. That's not your burden, and I'll thank you for it. ...
Just gonna point out that you've been spending your entire time in this thread telling folks like Ophidimancer that they don't have any right, reason, or cause to be offended, excluded, or hurt by the current half-species stat blocks and denigrating anyone who thinks the current halvzies blocks are 'Other'ing.
You don't get to tell them their emotions and experiences are wrong any more than someone gets to tell you your emotions and experiences are wrong. You want to keep half-elves as a separate species block because the game feels more D&D that way to you? Do it up. The old R5e release content's not going anywhere, you can continue to use R5e half-elves for as long as the system remains recognizable. You saw the Origins document, nothing in it invalidated the half-elf stat block. Here's the thing though - those stat blocks aren't moving forward into 1DD. For many reasons. Among them (but not limited to them):
Reason A.) the half-orc stat block is entirely redundant to the new fullblooded orc stat block. The one does everything the other did and more besides, and saying "oh, but orcs are too monstrous to be PCs!" is a thing of the past. Regular ordinary orcs are a thing now, and they don't need half-orcs whose abilities are eighty percent identical to regular orcs confusing new players.
Reason B.) the half-elf stat block is crazy overtuned by PHB species standards; the reason people are fighting so hard to keep it is because it stands head and shoulders above every other species in the PHB save elves and dwarves. It would need to be knocked on the head and redone for 1DD anyways, and since people would scream if half-elves stopped being the best species in the PHB? Why bother, when they're just gonna continue to play the R5e version anyways?
Reason C.) All the stuff Ophidimancer has been talking about with 'Other'ing. Real people of multiracial descent don't like the current halvzies stat blocks. I've seen it more than twice. Folks like myself who originate from painfully monoracial stock can't grok the issues multiracial folks have. Sure, we like toying with those tropes because it's exciting to be a Unique Creature, but that's because we can pick it up at the table and then leave it there when we're done. People who have to live it 24/7 have informed you that they feel differently.
Reason D.) Limited book space. Wizards is already expanding the subclass count in the PHB 2.0 and providing a lot more options, and they want to introduce a new species to boot. ALl that has to come from somewhere. Given the other issues with halvzies stat blocks and the fact that those statblocks will still exist in R5e materials, they're easy cuts for 1DD to make back some space, which is gonna be at a premium in the upcoming new books.
Does that clarify things? Or are we still going to continue having this awful three year old fight?
I feel like (and I've said this before) the biggest issue seems to be that some people believe the make-believe worlds of D&D (or other TTRPGs) are an analogue for the real world, and other players don't believe it is an analogue for the real world.
There seems to be some sort of panic that if we allow anything in a game that would would not like or allow IRL, then those behaviours will transfer from the game to IRL. It's like saying that if we allow people to play first-person-shooter video games, they will go shoot people in real life, or, perhaps more aptly, that if you play a TTRPG with (gasps) DEMONS AND WITCHCRAFT in it, you will become a satanist IRL and kill people IRL. We lived through that panic (I lived through that panic) and now we have another.
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"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing) You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
I feel like (and I've said this before) the biggest issue seems to be that some people believe the make-believe worlds of D&D (or other TTRPGs) are an analogue for the real world, and other players don't believe it is an analogue for the real world.
There seems to be some sort of panic that if we allow anything in a game that would would not like or allow IRL, then those behaviours will transfer from the game to IRL. It's like saying that if we allow people to play first-person-shooter video games, they will go shoot people in real life, or, perhaps more aptly, that if you play a TTRPG with (gasps) DEMONS AND WITCHCRAFT in it, you will become a satanist IRL and kill people IRL. We lived through that panic (I lived through that panic) and now we have another.
Nope that's not it and I wish people would stop saying this. It's not about how the game influences people's behaviors outside the game. It's about how the language of the game directly affects and can harm the people playing the game.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I'd actually argue that it is also hurtful in the new UA rules.
Is this how it actually makes you feel or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? Because I'm telling you how things actually make me feel.
Yes it does make it feel that the way they have it that it ignores half their heritage. That it is just cosmetic. That one may not actually be considered half their heritage by just making it cosmetic. Imagine saying that to someone in the real world. We don't have to as even today it is said.
Of course no one would say that, because it makes no sense. But we also don't get inherent stats and features from our heritage, that's bioessentialism and it's a pretty racist mode of thought. The way they are handling multiracial characters in the playtest, on the other hand, treats multiracial heritage as a lore detail about a character. It doesn't treat multiracial people as something completely alien from and actually encourages there to be a blend of influences in the character where it matters, in the Background. It allows the honoring of the entire heritage and person without creating some sort of special exclusionary classification for them.
You know that is not true because this is done historically. You bring up it being a racist thought but seem to ignore the history of when multi ethnicity. Where a drop of a different ethnic blood considered you that ethnicity.
Again here is my problem. Under the UA in my party my character's half-sister is half-elf. Now the player has to change her character traits to be either all the human traits or all the elven traits and just take features of the other. The only thing she gets from half her heritage is cosmetic. The only part she gets from the other half of her heritage is visual. So if she takes human then no dark-vision no High-Elf traits. So then of course she could be considered not to be elven because elves have darkvision. So she is othered. She also doesn't look fully human so she can not be considered human. So she is othered.
I feel like (and I've said this before) the biggest issue seems to be that some people believe the make-believe worlds of D&D (or other TTRPGs) are an analogue for the real world, and other players don't believe it is an analogue for the real world.
There seems to be some sort of panic that if we allow anything in a game that would would not like or allow IRL, then those behaviours will transfer from the game to IRL. It's like saying that if we allow people to play first-person-shooter video games, they will go shoot people in real life, or, perhaps more aptly, that if you play a TTRPG with (gasps) DEMONS AND WITCHCRAFT in it, you will become a satanist IRL and kill people IRL. We lived through that panic (I lived through that panic) and now we have another.
You have said this before, yes. You were wrong then, you're wrong now.
This issue has nothing to do with the separation between 'Fantasy' and 'Real Life', and I am beyond heartily sick of people using "but it's just fantasy, I should be able to do whatever I want in fantasy!" as a shield for toxic behavior and attitudes. The game world is fiction; people's experiences playing the game are not, and never have been. Grognak Axefacer, the Axer of Faces, is a work of fiction. Alice Tabernathy's experiences at the table piloting Grognak are as real as any other of Alice Tabernathy's experiences. Alice's memories of that game are as real to Alice as her memories of her work as a barista. Alice knows full well her barista job is real and Grognak is fiction, but that isn't gonna stop her from reflecting on the experiences she gained from both sources. And there's gonna be stuff in the fictional world of Brownfalcon where Grognak lives that makes Alice uncomfortable, just like there's going to be customers at Alice's Cometcoins job that make her want to crawl into a hole and die.
Alice can't do anything about godawful putrid Cometcoins customers. She can do something about sources of discomfort in her D&D game she does for fun with friends. No matter how often people on the Internet try and shame Alice into swallowing her discomfort and just living with it because they want to keep doing things that make other people uncomfortable while ignoring/denigrating the emotions and experiences of their fellow players.
Grognak Axefacer, the Axer of Faces, is fictional. Alice Tabernathy's experiences of being ignored, denigrated, and Other'd by her tablemates at the helm of Grognak Axefacer is no such thing. And the sooner people acknowledge that key fact, the sooner we can put this disgusting lingering forum fire to bed.
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Well, that's an opinion, isn't it.
You know, I just have to interject here. Having read your comments above, while I don't necessarily agree with Snow on every single point, I find nothing wrong with what he's saying. In fact I strongly agree with most of it. And well, it bothers me that your most recent response to him seems to straddle the line between disagreement and making an accusation that someone is engaging in... what, exactly? Incorrect thought? And for why? Because he wants to play a character with a heritage that might almost be unique in the campaign world, while you unironically say that half-race characters shouldn't be special? I'm sorry, but that doesn't seem right to me.
Every person wants to play a character that is special. And while there are numerous ways to accomplish this, speaking for myself alone, for me that sometimes means playing a half-elf. And on the occasion where I get that itch, no, I don't want to play a character who is mixed through an act of handwavium alone. No, I don't want to play an Elf or a human with the serial numbers filed off. Those things don't speak to me. What I want is to play a half-elf (or sometimes a half-orc).
Why?
Because they are the outsider. Because they do stand out. Because they do have qualities that no one else does. And perhaps even because sometimes, those things mean that it is hard for them. And no, I don't just want the fluff, I want a little bit of that particular crunch too. That's what I like. That's what I want. And I don't appreciate the possibility that it might be reduced into irrelevance. Not one bit.
>>Again, you're attempting to "other" certain player characters.
You shouldn't make statements like that.
>>Mixed peoples, like half-elves and half-orcs, are no more deserving of entries than anyone else. They're relics you're desperately trying to cling to, and all it'll do is cause more problems.
Hard, and I do mean hard, disagree.
In none of those scenarios are you prevented from playing a half elf paladin with a charisma bonus.
It's not the same thing.
I'm down with this.
Half-elves and Half-Orcs have been a thing in core D&D ever since 2nd edition, and I honestly did not like them dealing with them the way they have... while adding the Orc as a core race along with the Ardling.
Bear with me: I am not against the concept of making mixed-races a thing. I don't have anything against, say, half-dwarves (the other half being human). But I think this is poorly implemented. Mixed races deserve better as a concept that just a sidebar and ALL extremes. The established race fantasy of the half-elf and half-orc is being caught in the middle of two worlds and I don't see the mixed-race sidebar helping with that.
I could have a family made of an human and an elf parent... and they could have three children. Two see well at night, don't sleep so much as daydream to rest, and they have innate magic. But the other is blind as a mole in the dark... but hey, he knows more things and can pull of an interest feat.
Doesn't add up to me. Again, extremes when they should be nothing but.
Think on it: PHB 2014 gives us a couple of pages on multiclassing - which is in essence mixing two important core features. Multiclassing wasn't a sidebar.
The August playtest gives us a recipe for making backgrounds and then pages of sample backgrounds. Why not making the Mixed-Race entry just as extensive? If there were established mixed races, why not do like backgrounds and give us a sample that's the kind of melting pot we've seen from Half-Elves and Half-Orcs in the past... That way at least we'd have the classical half-elf and half-orc more within reach, but the freedom to do other mixed-races as defined in the sidebar.
Yea. It's... really not. Like, imagine if they included a rule saying you could swap around any racial feats. Would you be as happy playing, I dunno, a dwarf wizard if you were just playing a dwarf but with the elf racial traits? You're not a dwarf. You're a short elf with a beard.
You know what? You didn't have to interject, here. Rather, you chose to. And I don't think you thought it through all the way.
Are we just supposed to accept that half-elf and half-orc are the only mixed races worthy of consideration? Are the other halves only for humans, like they've always been; and are in Pathfinder? What about a dwarf/orc hybrid? Should they use half-orc stats, or would they be relegated to a generic template? What about an elf/dragonborn? A dwarf/hobgoblin? An elf/orc? Who is worthy of consideration, and who isn't?
You're both arguing in favor of tradition, and for no other sake than to maintain that tradition. It's not a great position to be in.
[REDACTED]
So when you say you want to play a half elf, you aren't actually there to play a half elf, you're there for the darkvision and bonus proficiencies?
Fair enough I guess, but would be a lot easier to just start from there.
No. It almost doesn't matter what the bonuses for the half-elf are (I mean, they have to make sense). Just that they are the half-elf bonuses. If you play a tiefling, but ignore the tiefling racials entirely and replace them with, I dunno, a bugbears... Are you a tiefling or are you a bugbear that just happens to look like a tiefling?
It's not so much the mechanical aspect or power so much as it is that it's a mechanic specific to that race. If the half-elves literally got nothing while every other race got... something... as much as I'd want them to give half-elves a buff I would feel wrong just taking another races bonuses and then claiming they were half-elf ones.
On the story aspect it's insulting to see multiple half-races reduced down to something that's probably going to end up crammed in some sidebar with MAYBE a tiny chart if we're lucky. On the mechanical aspect it doesn't feel right to be claiming another races abilities as my own. I get that we can't designate stuff for every single combination so having a general option is useful in that regard, but it doesn't feel RIGHT to take an elves night-vision just because I'm a half-elf. That they get it is wonderful; but it's not only not why I pick the race (though I admittedly like it) and I'd feel the same about any other trait, even a negative one. I don't care what it is so long as it's part of my/my character's identity in some aspect as a half-elf.
Uh... yes. I did choose to do that, and I even thought it through too. I mean, I literally told you.
Look, here's the thing. You're talking about some kind of injustice, and while I don't quite understand it (or why you're treating it as a matter of such gravity) you're entitled to it. All I can tell you is that I don't see it, nor is that why I'm here. I'm just sitting here asking to keep my half-elf as is. That's literally all I want. Frankly the whole situation seems like the most absurd 1st world problem imaginable, yet here we are arguing about it for some reason.
As for the other half-races, yes. Use the template. Or, implement a genuine mix and match system such as the poster a couple messages up suggested- take your pick. I'd be all for either option, or whatever else works well. As far as I can tell at first glance nobody in this entire thread has indicated that they would be against any of this. But then you seem irate about that anyway, and then for some reason you mention Pathfinder which is a system I have zero knowledge about, and I'm just left scratching my head over the whole thing. It's very perplexing.
>>Yes, you're both advocating for "othering" other players. Such behavior should be called for what it is.
Well, that's just uncalled for.
Allow me to echo a little bit of what I told the other guy. Clearly, you have a concern, and I'm sure your heart's in the right place. But you aren't the gatekeeper. You aren't even "a" gatekeeper. I urge you to remember that you speak for yourself, and no one else. And for the same reason you certainly don't get to be a moral compass dictating how I or anyone should feel about anything, which includes playing the game this way or that. Your insinuation that anyone should be ashamed for anything is way out of line. Way out of line.
One last thing. You don't know my situation, just like I don't know yours. However, if I get to a point where I feel offended by anything, feel excluded, or have any other strong feeling, I'll happily tell you. You don't get to tell me when that is, and you don't get to tell me how I should feel, just like I don't get to tell you how to feel. That's not your burden, and I'll thank you for it.
In the meantime, if you would like to talk about mechanics, potential player options, or the implications of changes to the playtest rules I'm happy to do that. That seems to be what this forum is for, but hey what do I know. On the other hand, if you want to discuss philosophy then frankly I think that train left the station when you chose to respond the way you did.
You know, it's great for you that you didn't feel othered by the Half Elf and Half Orc portrayal, but me saying "we" felt some kind of way is not a blanket statement saying everyone felt that way. I literally gave an example of someone else beside me, which counts as an "us." Generally when something is hurting someone or making them uncomfortable saying, "Well it doesn't make me uncomfortable so you're just going to have to put up with it" is .. less than good.
Saying that it makes people, makes me specifically and other people I've talked to and not just hypothetical "people," feel othered isn't telling you how to feel. Saying "this is not an uncomfortable thing" is telling other people how to feel by invalidating our feelings. You're saying that no, it is not that way and thus you should not or cannot feel that way. That's not cool.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I'd actually argue that it is also hurtful in the new UA rules. The only thing you get from one part of your bi-racial heritage is cosmetic in nature. You're really just one of them and the other is just a flavor option.
I actually like the rules set forth in Taledori Reborn by Critical Role. Select three traits. One from one, two from another and try to balance it out. GM approves. So if you did a human and a halfling you could take Skilled or Lucky but not both.
Is this how it actually makes you feel or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? Because I'm telling you how things actually make me feel.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Yes it does make it feel that the way they have it that it ignores half their heritage. That it is just cosmetic. That one may not actually be considered half their heritage by just making it cosmetic.
Imagine saying that to someone in the real world. We don't have to as even today it is said.
Of course no one would say that, because it makes no sense. But we also don't get inherent stats and features from our heritage, that's bioessentialism and it's a pretty racist mode of thought. The way they are handling multiracial characters in the playtest, on the other hand, treats multiracial heritage as a lore detail about a character. It doesn't treat multiracial people as something completely alien from and actually encourages there to be a blend of influences in the character where it matters, in the Background. It allows the honoring of the entire heritage and person without creating some sort of special exclusionary classification for them.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Just gonna point out that you've been spending your entire time in this thread telling folks like Ophidimancer that they don't have any right, reason, or cause to be offended, excluded, or hurt by the current half-species stat blocks and denigrating anyone who thinks the current halvzies blocks are 'Other'ing.
You don't get to tell them their emotions and experiences are wrong any more than someone gets to tell you your emotions and experiences are wrong. You want to keep half-elves as a separate species block because the game feels more D&D that way to you? Do it up. The old R5e release content's not going anywhere, you can continue to use R5e half-elves for as long as the system remains recognizable. You saw the Origins document, nothing in it invalidated the half-elf stat block. Here's the thing though - those stat blocks aren't moving forward into 1DD. For many reasons. Among them (but not limited to them):
Reason A.) the half-orc stat block is entirely redundant to the new fullblooded orc stat block. The one does everything the other did and more besides, and saying "oh, but orcs are too monstrous to be PCs!" is a thing of the past. Regular ordinary orcs are a thing now, and they don't need half-orcs whose abilities are eighty percent identical to regular orcs confusing new players.
Reason B.) the half-elf stat block is crazy overtuned by PHB species standards; the reason people are fighting so hard to keep it is because it stands head and shoulders above every other species in the PHB save elves and dwarves. It would need to be knocked on the head and redone for 1DD anyways, and since people would scream if half-elves stopped being the best species in the PHB? Why bother, when they're just gonna continue to play the R5e version anyways?
Reason C.) All the stuff Ophidimancer has been talking about with 'Other'ing. Real people of multiracial descent don't like the current halvzies stat blocks. I've seen it more than twice. Folks like myself who originate from painfully monoracial stock can't grok the issues multiracial folks have. Sure, we like toying with those tropes because it's exciting to be a Unique Creature, but that's because we can pick it up at the table and then leave it there when we're done. People who have to live it 24/7 have informed you that they feel differently.
Reason D.) Limited book space. Wizards is already expanding the subclass count in the PHB 2.0 and providing a lot more options, and they want to introduce a new species to boot. ALl that has to come from somewhere. Given the other issues with halvzies stat blocks and the fact that those statblocks will still exist in R5e materials, they're easy cuts for 1DD to make back some space, which is gonna be at a premium in the upcoming new books.
Does that clarify things? Or are we still going to continue having this awful three year old fight?
Please do not contact or message me.
I feel like (and I've said this before) the biggest issue seems to be that some people believe the make-believe worlds of D&D (or other TTRPGs) are an analogue for the real world, and other players don't believe it is an analogue for the real world.
There seems to be some sort of panic that if we allow anything in a game that would would not like or allow IRL, then those behaviours will transfer from the game to IRL. It's like saying that if we allow people to play first-person-shooter video games, they will go shoot people in real life, or, perhaps more aptly, that if you play a TTRPG with (gasps) DEMONS AND WITCHCRAFT in it, you will become a satanist IRL and kill people IRL. We lived through that panic (I lived through that panic) and now we have another.
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing)
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Nope that's not it and I wish people would stop saying this. It's not about how the game influences people's behaviors outside the game. It's about how the language of the game directly affects and can harm the people playing the game.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
You know that is not true because this is done historically. You bring up it being a racist thought but seem to ignore the history of when multi ethnicity. Where a drop of a different ethnic blood considered you that ethnicity.
Again here is my problem.
Under the UA in my party my character's half-sister is half-elf. Now the player has to change her character traits to be either all the human traits or all the elven traits and just take features of the other. The only thing she gets from half her heritage is cosmetic. The only part she gets from the other half of her heritage is visual.
So if she takes human then no dark-vision no High-Elf traits. So then of course she could be considered not to be elven because elves have darkvision. So she is othered.
She also doesn't look fully human so she can not be considered human. So she is othered.
You have said this before, yes. You were wrong then, you're wrong now.
This issue has nothing to do with the separation between 'Fantasy' and 'Real Life', and I am beyond heartily sick of people using "but it's just fantasy, I should be able to do whatever I want in fantasy!" as a shield for toxic behavior and attitudes. The game world is fiction; people's experiences playing the game are not, and never have been. Grognak Axefacer, the Axer of Faces, is a work of fiction. Alice Tabernathy's experiences at the table piloting Grognak are as real as any other of Alice Tabernathy's experiences. Alice's memories of that game are as real to Alice as her memories of her work as a barista. Alice knows full well her barista job is real and Grognak is fiction, but that isn't gonna stop her from reflecting on the experiences she gained from both sources. And there's gonna be stuff in the fictional world of Brownfalcon where Grognak lives that makes Alice uncomfortable, just like there's going to be customers at Alice's Cometcoins job that make her want to crawl into a hole and die.
Alice can't do anything about godawful putrid Cometcoins customers. She can do something about sources of discomfort in her D&D game she does for fun with friends. No matter how often people on the Internet try and shame Alice into swallowing her discomfort and just living with it because they want to keep doing things that make other people uncomfortable while ignoring/denigrating the emotions and experiences of their fellow players.
Grognak Axefacer, the Axer of Faces, is fictional. Alice Tabernathy's experiences of being ignored, denigrated, and Other'd by her tablemates at the helm of Grognak Axefacer is no such thing. And the sooner people acknowledge that key fact, the sooner we can put this disgusting lingering forum fire to bed.
Please do not contact or message me.