I didn't need a feature to tell me that a sage with years of researching experience will know someone or someplace they can go to get more information. Especially when that is written into the character's backstory. That is what it comes down to. Features are ribbon features that may or may not come into play and are inferred by the characters backstory. And since custom backgrounds and alterations to the backgrounds necessitate a change to any of those features anyway they aren't really hard and fast rules either. Which is already what flavor and roleplay text really is anyway. If my backstory is I have worked in many places of learning and am a scholar and know other scholars of various disciplines than I don't need a feature that tells me that I know of other places of learning and other scholars. This is simple basic stuff that a person of a background can do what a person with that background should be able to do. The person of a background has connection to things related to that background who would have thought.
Really... So, without using google or any other search engine, you know, off hand, the best university or library to check on any given subject? You know where all the experts live, even outside of whatever your particular field of studies is? Where all the ancient ruins are and what kind of lore is likely buried in each and every one? Again, you are seriously underplaying the strength of the sage's feature.
And since custom backgrounds are an option, these rules are not needed? Homebrew is an option. By your logic, aren't you therefore arguing that no rules are needed? For anything?
You realize that feature is BECAUSE of the background AKA the backstory right? So yes, they have spent their ENTIRE LIVES in pursuit of knowledge. Most things you could easily say I read about this ancient tomb in a book. I heard about this guy from another professor... so on and so forth. And no I am not arguing no rules are needed for anything. Again this is the circle logic that has reached levels of utter stupidity at this point. Every. Single. Feature. exists because the backstory would make the feature make sense. If the backstory is already there, you don't need the feature. BECAUSE the feature is JUST a flavor ribbon feature that REITERATES what the background is and it may never even come up in a game for a vast majority of the backgrounds. This is the SAME with SKILL checks, and ability checks and every other rule in the game. You don't need to HARD DEFINE what you can know with Arcane check, you don't need to HARD DEFINE what you can do with an athletics check. Each and every skill covers a wide variety of actions and abilities and we DON'T have rules for what each and every one of those actions is. And just like we do not need or have rules for every little thing that each and every skill can do, we also don't need rules for "hey my backstory allows me to do the things that my character has basically done there entire life up until this point." And "they have the connections and influence with the people places and things they have literally interacted with their entire lives up until this point." This is especially true for those super long lived races. Also maybe you just asked a great question, Why the hell does sage get to know where to find EVERY piece of information. Maybe they SHOULDN'T. Maybe that doesn't actually make sense and the feature you are talking about is nonsensical and would be better off gone and allowing the DM to use their judgement about your connections and their limits. In both cases, this argument is exhaustive and dumb.
Out of curiosity is there a reason why some of you seem to believe that the custom background option that is already present is not enough, I keep seeing you give reasons why the current backgrounds are either subpar useless etc but no one as far as I can recall as explain why the custom background is not good enough.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If I can't say something nice, I try to not say anything at all. So if I suddenly stop participating in a topic that's probably why.
And again, you seem to be downplaying the features as all 'basic,' completely ignoring counter-arguments showing that not to be true. And by downplaying them as basic, you furthermore seem to imply that every PC knows local military structure, even without being a soldier.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!
LISTEN TO ME!!!!!!!
Nobody is saying that "every PC knows every background feature". Not one soul is saying that. Not. One. Soul.
What Inverse and I have been trying to say for the last twenty pages of this thread and half a dozen others is YOU DO NOT NEED THE "MILITARY RANK" BACKGROUND FEATURE TO BE A SOLDIER!
You can say to your DM "my character served in the border war a few years back; he has a military service record and may end up with connections to the Kingdom's military, if they come up" and receive 100% of the benefit of "Military Rank" by working with the DM for ten god damn minutes to establish your character's background without the need of a Background Feature that serves no actual f@#$ing purpose save to say "you served in the military once and military people may like you better for it." Your soldier can take Savage Attacker to represent their rigorous combat training and their time spent fighting if they were a frontline trooper, or they can take something else to represent their military talents if they served another way, but they are still a soldier.
THAT is what I am saying. I do not f@#$ing need my players to spoonfeed me their backgrounds from an official book, and I do not f@#$ing need my DM to ignore every last thing about my character save their 'Military Rank' background feature because that's the one thing a bad DM considers important from a background. Building a character is a two-way street between player and DM; by the time you've done it properly for a game you intend to play over the long term the DM will know what connections make sense for you and what connections do not, and if it's a one-shot piece of nonsense your connections don't matter anyways.
The post I responded to was claiming information to be 'basic knowledge.' That is the context I was responding to. How is 'basic knowledge' not something universally known?
Where did your character serve that they had no rank?
You can say all sorts of things, but unless the rules agree with you in some manner, the claims are empty.
You are an imaginative person. I am sure you can come up with all sorts of things on your own that are otherwise already covered in the rules. Should every rule you can come up with on your own be scrapped? What happens when your table all have different ideas of what rules should be obvious? Should the DM have to write out everything? Rules are written formally, so that everyone is on the same page, literally. And if your table does not need that part of the rules, your table is not obligated to use them. Again, there is already provision for custom backgrounds. Is your real objection here that the rules are redundant? Or that you see your characters as too weak and feel they should get more benefit from their backgrounds?
You say 'by the time you've done it properly' as if every player and DM, particularly every new player and every new DM know how to do it properly from their very first sessions. Also that every player and every DM know much about professions generally to come up with something that makes actual sense for any given back story, particularly for that DM's world.
As a curiosity, what are you going to do when they remove background features? Since you seem to be having trouble making those calls yourself, how are you going to handle these things when they aren't explicitly written out for you? Hell, how are you handling it now when your players want to do something that doesn't explicitly have a rule for it?
I didn't need a feature to tell me that a sage with years of researching experience will know someone or someplace they can go to get more information. Especially when that is written into the character's backstory. That is what it comes down to. Features are ribbon features that may or may not come into play and are inferred by the characters backstory. And since custom backgrounds and alterations to the backgrounds necessitate a change to any of those features anyway they aren't really hard and fast rules either. Which is already what flavor and roleplay text really is anyway. If my backstory is I have worked in many places of learning and am a scholar and know other scholars of various disciplines than I don't need a feature that tells me that I know of other places of learning and other scholars. This is simple basic stuff that a person of a background can do what a person with that background should be able to do. The person of a background has connection to things related to that background who would have thought.
Really... So, without using google or any other search engine, you know, off hand, the best university or library to check on any given subject? You know where all the experts live, even outside of whatever your particular field of studies is? Where all the ancient ruins are and what kind of lore is likely buried in each and every one? Again, you are seriously underplaying the strength of the sage's feature.
And since custom backgrounds are an option, these rules are not needed? Homebrew is an option. By your logic, aren't you therefore arguing that no rules are needed? For anything?
You realize that feature is BECAUSE of the background AKA the backstory right? So yes, they have spent their ENTIRE LIVES in pursuit of knowledge. Most things you could easily say I read about this ancient tomb in a book. I heard about this guy from another professor... so on and so forth. And no I am not arguing no rules are needed for anything. Again this is the circle logic that has reached levels of utter stupidity at this point. Every. Single. Feature. exists because the backstory would make the feature make sense. If the backstory is already there, you don't need the feature. BECAUSE the feature is JUST a flavor ribbon feature that REITERATES what the background is and it may never even come up in a game for a vast majority of the backgrounds. This is the SAME with SKILL checks, and ability checks and every other rule in the game. You don't need to HARD DEFINE what you can know with Arcane check, you don't need to HARD DEFINE what you can do with an athletics check. Each and every skill covers a wide variety of actions and abilities and we DON'T have rules for what each and every one of those actions is. And just like we do not need or have rules for every little thing that each and every skill can do, we also don't need rules for "hey my backstory allows me to do the things that my character has basically done there entire life up until this point." And "they have the connections and influence with the people places and things they have literally interacted with their entire lives up until this point." This is especially true for those super long lived races. Also maybe you just asked a great question, Why the hell does sage get to know where to find EVERY piece of information. Maybe they SHOULDN'T. Maybe that doesn't actually make sense and the feature you are talking about is nonsensical and would be better off gone and allowing the DM to use their judgement about your connections and their limits. In both cases, this argument is exhaustive and dumb.
They have not spent their entire lives in pursuit of knowledge. They are not dead. They are likely not even old. And if they are old and have spent 'their entire lives' in pursuit of knowledge, i.e. not just sitting at home studying the same few books, why are they only 1st level?
But more to the point here, you are assuming that, simply calling them a sage tells DM and players all that, without actually telling DM and players that otherwise. If it is in the hand written background description of your character, then your problem is that is unfair that you didn't get to write the exact same thing yourself?
And now, after you and others have been arguing the feature useless, you are going to argue that it is too powerful? What???
I believe this is what's referred to as arguing for the sake of arguing. Or maybe he did what I said earlier and didn't actually read it for more accurately comprehend it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If I can't say something nice, I try to not say anything at all. So if I suddenly stop participating in a topic that's probably why.
I didn't need a feature to tell me that a sage with years of researching experience will know someone or someplace they can go to get more information. Especially when that is written into the character's backstory. That is what it comes down to. Features are ribbon features that may or may not come into play and are inferred by the characters backstory. And since custom backgrounds and alterations to the backgrounds necessitate a change to any of those features anyway they aren't really hard and fast rules either. Which is already what flavor and roleplay text really is anyway. If my backstory is I have worked in many places of learning and am a scholar and know other scholars of various disciplines than I don't need a feature that tells me that I know of other places of learning and other scholars. This is simple basic stuff that a person of a background can do what a person with that background should be able to do. The person of a background has connection to things related to that background who would have thought.
Really... So, without using google or any other search engine, you know, off hand, the best university or library to check on any given subject? You know where all the experts live, even outside of whatever your particular field of studies is? Where all the ancient ruins are and what kind of lore is likely buried in each and every one? Again, you are seriously underplaying the strength of the sage's feature.
And since custom backgrounds are an option, these rules are not needed? Homebrew is an option. By your logic, aren't you therefore arguing that no rules are needed? For anything?
You realize that feature is BECAUSE of the background AKA the backstory right? So yes, they have spent their ENTIRE LIVES in pursuit of knowledge. Most things you could easily say I read about this ancient tomb in a book. I heard about this guy from another professor... so on and so forth. And no I am not arguing no rules are needed for anything. Again this is the circle logic that has reached levels of utter stupidity at this point. Every. Single. Feature. exists because the backstory would make the feature make sense. If the backstory is already there, you don't need the feature. BECAUSE the feature is JUST a flavor ribbon feature that REITERATES what the background is and it may never even come up in a game for a vast majority of the backgrounds. This is the SAME with SKILL checks, and ability checks and every other rule in the game. You don't need to HARD DEFINE what you can know with Arcane check, you don't need to HARD DEFINE what you can do with an athletics check. Each and every skill covers a wide variety of actions and abilities and we DON'T have rules for what each and every one of those actions is. And just like we do not need or have rules for every little thing that each and every skill can do, we also don't need rules for "hey my backstory allows me to do the things that my character has basically done there entire life up until this point." And "they have the connections and influence with the people places and things they have literally interacted with their entire lives up until this point." This is especially true for those super long lived races. Also maybe you just asked a great question, Why the hell does sage get to know where to find EVERY piece of information. Maybe they SHOULDN'T. Maybe that doesn't actually make sense and the feature you are talking about is nonsensical and would be better off gone and allowing the DM to use their judgement about your connections and their limits. In both cases, this argument is exhaustive and dumb.
They have not spent their entire lives in pursuit of knowledge. They are not dead. They are likely not even old. And if they are old and have spent 'their entire lives' in pursuit of knowledge, i.e. not just sitting at home studying the same few books, why are they only 1st level?
But more to the point here, you are assuming that, simply calling them a sage tells DM and players all that, without actually telling DM and players that otherwise. If it is in the hand written background description of your character, then your problem is that is unfair that you didn't get to write the exact same thing yourself?
And now, after you and others have been arguing the feature useless, you are going to argue that it is too powerful? What???
I am saying the feature thing is USELESS to the DM and the player and is beyond stupid that it even exists. All of the stupid things the features say are implied by either the name of the background or by the bloody backstory. If they weren't reading the backstory they weren't reading the feature. It is really, really, really easy to understand.
No background exists without the backstory. A title is not everything. DONT. BE. AN. IDIOT. I feel like this shouldn't be hard for me to ask this of you.
Edit: also Sage suggests an older individual technically, we have races that live almost a thousand years AND when I say Entire Lives I obviously mean Entire life up until the point of becoming an adventurer. Again dont be stupid. It shouldn't be a hard ask.
Out of curiosity is there a reason why some of you seem to believe that the custom background option that is already present is not enough, I keep seeing you give reasons why the current backgrounds are either subpar useless etc but no one as far as I can recall as explain why the custom background is not good enough.
Well because you could have features that don't work for said backstory, their are no rules in the current custom background for equipment so you take a huge nerf to that. There are no rules for how to create a feature that would be fair, not like the features themselves are meaningful in anyway they all basically just say something along the lines of "you are what you said you were". The custom background right now are entirely insufficient because it lacks the tools to fully create a background. The UA gives you exactly how to create a background from top to bottom, money and your feature is pick a feat that makes sense for someone of the background you came up with, and the feats are generic enough to NOT try to be a defining role play function like these features are stupidly trying to do.
Deleted: unneeded has already been said, just like everything has already been said here.
Edit: All of these features basically read like if a class said "Cleric: as a Cleric you are a divine priest able to cast holy spells" and that was the entire rule you were given about Clerics. These features aren't rules they are barely reminders that you are what you said you were. Outlander who lives their entire lives in the wilds... can find food in the wilds... well no duh. Would have been kinda hard to survive that way if you couldn't. Oh look the guy that studies about ancient knowledge knows where to find information about ancient knowledge, who would have thunk? The Sailor can use his skills to sail and thus sell those skills for free passage.... The Noble, is treated like a Noble WILD who could have figured that one out. An Acolyte of a faith... is treated like an Acolyte of that faith.... things are getting wild stop the presses. The charlatan who spends his life conning people has ALIASES... never could have figured that out in a million years, genius I say. What is next? The criminal has criminal contacts..... shut up now you have gone too far what will they come up with next. OH I know the Entertainer... is entertaining WOW really. Or the Folk hero is treated like a hero. Man this is becoming too much I can't wait to see the next one. Oh guild artisan what is it going to be?.... is it going to be you are part of a guild and are treated like part of the guild? OH IT IS that is hilarious. Hermit is actually interesting, they are a wise old hermit who knows some great secret of the universe, which is what most people think of when you say wise old hermit so I guess not that interesting. And we are back to the soldier is treated like a soldier imagine that. And finally the urchin, who lived their entire lives on the street of the city, knows the streets of the city.... fascinating clearly these are rules that were meaningful and needed to be spelled out, I mean next your going to tell me that poop.... smells like poop.
So a common argument you keep making is that because it's implied it does not need to be stated the issue with that is the implied part because if something is only implied that means it's not a guarantee that you can do it, now granted a DM can always ban certain backgrounds and that's okay if a DM feels the background is overpowered they're allowed to remove it. But barring circumstances such as that one you never actually need DM oversight when creating your character as far as mechanics are concerned with the new build your own background it is explicitly stated you need to get DM approval, which like I said earlier is another way to add more shit to the DMs plate. Also I know you removed it but really calling us idiots because we have a different opinion not cool.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If I can't say something nice, I try to not say anything at all. So if I suddenly stop participating in a topic that's probably why.
So a common argument you keep making is that because it's implied it does not need to be stated the issue with that is the implied part because if something is only implied that means it's not a guarantee that you can do it, now granted a DM can always ban certain backgrounds and that's okay if a DM feels the background is overpowered they're allowed to remove it. But barring circumstances such as that one you never actually need DM oversight when creating your character as far as mechanics are concerned with the new build your own background it is explicitly stated you need to get DM approval, which like I said earlier is another way to add more shit to the DMs plate. Also I know you removed it but really calling us idiots because we have a different opinion not cool.
I was not calling you idiots because you disagree, but because you continually fail to understand extremely simple things. Like in this case you don't need DM oversight at all in creating the current backgrounds, all the mechanical rules for backgrounds are clearly defined and spelled out. All you have to do is SHARE your backstory with the DM and then trust the DM isn't a raging idiot. DM may not even use your backstory, but you will still have all the mechanical benefits from it. In the CURRENT rules you need MASSIVE DM oversight if you want to create a custom background and not use one of the premade ones. Because they have to create an entire new feature for you, this feature needs to be tailor made for your specific custom background the way you wrote it. It can't be too powerful and there are no rules on how to make them. In addition, the DM has to decide what items make sense with your background and after you have items what arbitrary money amount it is going to have. Again all without any rules what so ever to help the DM with this, nothing they could infer or imply beyond the skills, and either languages or tools, they don't even have the ASI to go off of.
The UA rules specifically DO NOT state that you need the DM's approval for a custom background. That is what the current rules say. So not only are you wrong about the new one putting more on the DM, it is actually the exact opposite.
And as far as stupid responses goes Kotath finds a way to make a dozy again. He just keeps one upping himself in his inability to actually put any form of thought into what he is saying.
Equipment is easy to edit: this entire section once again really speaks to the fact that you don't play much pen and paper and play a lot online. You can write anything on the sheet, the ease of an online tool to do something isn't relevant. Also again no RULES for equipment so while you can easily add equipment by writing it down or through an online app, deciding what SHOULD be added, not so much. For example the Urchin provides proficiency with thieves tools and yet, they don't have any thieves tools so just because the person is proficient with the tool because of their custom background doesn't mean they should start with that tool.
And the best one Failing the understand the feature argument: All the CURRENT features that you are fighting so hard to keep basically boil down to the background does what the background says it is and implies it should do. But AGAIN, for the 10th time, there are no RULES for creating features. The player could ask for what ever feature they wanted, and since there are no RULES for creating that feature the onus is on the GM entirely to figure it out. Now the GM could be like Yes your witch doctor is indeed a witch doctor when creating the feature or yep the fortune teller tells fortunes, or the investigator is an investigator, making it as useless and pointless as the rest of the features. OR because again NO RULES for creating the feature, the GM could accidently over do it and make the feature into basically a Feat, and since some feats are pretty flavorful and weak... it is possible they make it something more POWERFUL than most feats unlike the rest of the features. Because again, there is no rules, no guidance NOTHING to tell a GM how to make a feature, but they NEED a feature for this custom background.
The fact that this is hard to grasp and you guys somehow think the new system puts more on the DM than THIS, is what makes you dumb, not that you disagree with me. It is simple inability to comprehend the most basic of concepts.
But you are right it is very rude of me to call you guys stupid, I tried to walk it back because of the heat of the moment, but hey might as well.
Edit: of course with the new rules since you don't need to make a feature because the player has a feat the backstory/ background "feature" will just be a natural occurrence of the game. They don't have to come up with anything mechanical it is simply the player going "hey my character was a Fortune teller, can I x because I was a fortune teller?" and the GM goes yay or nay for it depending on if it makes sense in the moment to moment rather than coming up with a feature that is specific to the job, but generic to encompass the job or, most likely, roll an x check for it and the game flows on without a hitch or a thought to the problem.
So a common argument you keep making is that because it's implied it does not need to be stated the issue with that is the implied part because if something is only implied that means it's not a guarantee that you can do it, now granted a DM can always ban certain backgrounds and that's okay if a DM feels the background is overpowered they're allowed to remove it. But barring circumstances such as that one you never actually need DM oversight when creating your character as far as mechanics are concerned with the new build your own background it is explicitly stated you need to get DM approval, which like I said earlier is another way to add more shit to the DMs plate. Also I know you removed it but really calling us idiots because we have a different opinion not cool.
I was not calling you idiots because you disagree, but because you continually fail to understand extremely simple things. Like in this case you don't need DM oversight at all in creating the current backgrounds, all the mechanical rules for backgrounds are clearly defined and spelled out. All you have to do is SHARE your backstory with the DM and then trust the DM isn't a raging idiot. DM may not even use your backstory, but you will still have all the mechanical benefits from it. In the CURRENT rules you need MASSIVE DM oversight if you want to create a custom background and not use one of the premade ones. Because they have to create an entire new feature for you, this feature needs to be tailor made for your specific custom background the way you wrote it. It can't be too powerful and there are no rules on how to make them. In addition, the DM has to decide what items make sense with your background and after you have items what arbitrary money amount it is going to have. Again all without any rules what so ever to help the DM with this, nothing they could infer or imply beyond the skills, and either languages or tools, they don't even have the ASI to go off of.
The UA rules specifically DO NOT state that you need the DM's approval for a custom background. That is what the current rules say. So not only are you wrong about the new one putting more on the DM, it is actually the exact opposite.
And as far as stupid responses goes Kotath finds a way to make a dozy again. He just keeps one upping himself in his inability to actually put any form of thought into what he is saying.
Equipment is easy to edit: this entire section once again really speaks to the fact that you don't play much pen and paper and play a lot online. You can write anything on the sheet, the ease of an online tool to do something isn't relevant. Also again no RULES for equipment so while you can easily add equipment by writing it down or through an online app, deciding what SHOULD be added, not so much. For example the Urchin provides proficiency with thieves tools and yet, they don't have any thieves tools so just because the person is proficient with the tool because of their custom background doesn't mean they should start with that tool.
And the best one Failing the understand the feature argument: All the CURRENT features that you are fighting so hard to keep basically boil down to the background does what the background says it is and implies it should do. But AGAIN, for the 10th time, there are no RULES for creating features. The player could ask for what ever feature they wanted, and since there are no RULES for creating that feature the onus is on the GM entirely to figure it out. Now the GM could be like Yes your witch doctor is indeed a witch doctor when creating the feature or yep the fortune teller tells fortunes, or the investigator is an investigator, making it as useless and pointless as the rest of the features. OR because again NO RULES for creating the feature, the GM could accidently over do it and make the feature into basically a Feat, and since some feats are pretty flavorful and weak... it is possible they make it something more POWERFUL than most feats unlike the rest of the features. Because again, there is no rules, no guidance NOTHING to tell a GM how to make a feature, but they NEED a feature for this custom background.
The fact that this is hard to grasp and you guys somehow think the new system puts more on the DM than THIS, is what makes you dumb, not that you disagree with me. It is simple inability to comprehend the most basic of concepts.
But you are right it is very rude of me to call you guys stupid, I tried to walk it back because of the heat of the moment, but hey might as well.
I feel like I should specify I don't think either of these background creation systems are better than the other maybe superior's a better word either way I think they both have their merits and demerits I simply prefer the role play focus aspect of the current system this is partly because I feel like we already have enough features from many other sources and I'm going to say right now if you think a custom background is not going to require DM approval then I have some news for you and as far as kotaths arguments are concerned he is using an actual style of debate I can remember the name for it but it boils down to take your opponent's arguments to the extreme which is something a few other people do on here as well and finally sorry about the lack of punctuation in this I'm using voice recognition because I'm at work can't use my hands to type
So a common argument you keep making is that because it's implied it does not need to be stated the issue with that is the implied part because if something is only implied that means it's not a guarantee that you can do it, now granted a DM can always ban certain backgrounds and that's okay if a DM feels the background is overpowered they're allowed to remove it. But barring circumstances such as that one you never actually need DM oversight when creating your character as far as mechanics are concerned with the new build your own background it is explicitly stated you need to get DM approval, which like I said earlier is another way to add more shit to the DMs plate. Also I know you removed it but really calling us idiots because we have a different opinion not cool.
I was not calling you idiots because you disagree, but because you continually fail to understand extremely simple things. Like in this case you don't need DM oversight at all in creating the current backgrounds, all the mechanical rules for backgrounds are clearly defined and spelled out. All you have to do is SHARE your backstory with the DM and then trust the DM isn't a raging idiot. DM may not even use your backstory, but you will still have all the mechanical benefits from it. In the CURRENT rules you need MASSIVE DM oversight if you want to create a custom background and not use one of the premade ones. Because they have to create an entire new feature for you, this feature needs to be tailor made for your specific custom background the way you wrote it. It can't be too powerful and there are no rules on how to make them. In addition, the DM has to decide what items make sense with your background and after you have items what arbitrary money amount it is going to have. Again all without any rules what so ever to help the DM with this, nothing they could infer or imply beyond the skills, and either languages or tools, they don't even have the ASI to go off of.
The UA rules specifically DO NOT state that you need the DM's approval for a custom background. That is what the current rules say. So not only are you wrong about the new one putting more on the DM, it is actually the exact opposite.
And as far as stupid responses goes Kotath finds a way to make a dozy again. He just keeps one upping himself in his inability to actually put any form of thought into what he is saying.
Equipment is easy to edit: this entire section once again really speaks to the fact that you don't play much pen and paper and play a lot online. You can write anything on the sheet, the ease of an online tool to do something isn't relevant. Also again no RULES for equipment so while you can easily add equipment by writing it down or through an online app, deciding what SHOULD be added, not so much. For example the Urchin provides proficiency with thieves tools and yet, they don't have any thieves tools so just because the person is proficient with the tool because of their custom background doesn't mean they should start with that tool.
And the best one Failing the understand the feature argument: All the CURRENT features that you are fighting so hard to keep basically boil down to the background does what the background says it is and implies it should do. But AGAIN, for the 10th time, there are no RULES for creating features. The player could ask for what ever feature they wanted, and since there are no RULES for creating that feature the onus is on the GM entirely to figure it out. Now the GM could be like Yes your witch doctor is indeed a witch doctor when creating the feature or yep the fortune teller tells fortunes, or the investigator is an investigator, making it as useless and pointless as the rest of the features. OR because again NO RULES for creating the feature, the GM could accidently over do it and make the feature into basically a Feat, and since some feats are pretty flavorful and weak... it is possible they make it something more POWERFUL than most feats unlike the rest of the features. Because again, there is no rules, no guidance NOTHING to tell a GM how to make a feature, but they NEED a feature for this custom background.
The fact that this is hard to grasp and you guys somehow think the new system puts more on the DM than THIS, is what makes you dumb, not that you disagree with me. It is simple inability to comprehend the most basic of concepts.
But you are right it is very rude of me to call you guys stupid, I tried to walk it back because of the heat of the moment, but hey might as well.
I feel like I should specify I don't think either of these background creation systems are better than the other maybe superior's a better word either way I think they both have their merits and demerits I simply prefer the role play focus aspect of the current system this is partly because I feel like we already have enough features from many other sources and I'm going to say right now if you think a custom background is not going to require DM approval then I have some news for you and as far as kotaths arguments are concerned he is using an actual style of debate I can remember the name for it but it boils down to take your opponent's arguments to the extreme which is something a few other people do on here as well and finally sorry about the lack of punctuation in this I'm using voice recognition because I'm at work can't use my hands to type
You are perfectly fine. In all honesty I really do regret calling you dumb, and do not actually believe that for you. The style of debate is called a series of straw man and slippery slope arguments all of which are heavy logical fallacies. By replacing my arguments with the most extreme version of them instead of actually addressing any of them or listening or understanding any of them he is further devolving the conversation and making increasingly worse arguments as it gets further and further from the actual point. Never debate this way if you want to be taken seriously.
The new UA is short hand, of course they are going to add narrative fluff, and needing DM approval, under the UA rules, is not needed. Some DMs may require it, but that won't be all. I already know at least 3 DM's that I could put any backstory with any combination of abilities in front of them and they will straight up say, ok cool sounds great, you ready. Actually, make that 6. I can think of 2 that would say wait what can you elaborate? And then I would and they would likely go.. "WHAT? that is awesome ok lets go" because mechanically it doesn't matter and they know that.
Edit: That said, there are a lot of famous people who argue this way as well, but that is usually because they are appealing to a specific crowd that is already on their own side and are simply helping to confirm the audiences bias. In this case neither Kotath or those who argue this way are doing so in good faith, instead they are attempting to use persuasive writing. Persuasive writing appeals to emotions more than logic. Of course, this is a game where emotions matter greatly and how you FEEL can often be more important than what is actually logically sound. Because at the end of the day it is played FOR the feelings of fun.
So a common argument you keep making is that because it's implied it does not need to be stated the issue with that is the implied part because if something is only implied that means it's not a guarantee that you can do it, now granted a DM can always ban certain backgrounds and that's okay if a DM feels the background is overpowered they're allowed to remove it. But barring circumstances such as that one you never actually need DM oversight when creating your character as far as mechanics are concerned with the new build your own background it is explicitly stated you need to get DM approval, which like I said earlier is another way to add more shit to the DMs plate. Also I know you removed it but really calling us idiots because we have a different opinion not cool.
I was not calling you idiots because you disagree, but because you continually fail to understand extremely simple things. Like in this case you don't need DM oversight at all in creating the current backgrounds, all the mechanical rules for backgrounds are clearly defined and spelled out. All you have to do is SHARE your backstory with the DM and then trust the DM isn't a raging idiot. DM may not even use your backstory, but you will still have all the mechanical benefits from it. In the CURRENT rules you need MASSIVE DM oversight if you want to create a custom background and not use one of the premade ones. Because they have to create an entire new feature for you, this feature needs to be tailor made for your specific custom background the way you wrote it. It can't be too powerful and there are no rules on how to make them. In addition, the DM has to decide what items make sense with your background and after you have items what arbitrary money amount it is going to have. Again all without any rules what so ever to help the DM with this, nothing they could infer or imply beyond the skills, and either languages or tools, they don't even have the ASI to go off of.
The UA rules specifically DO NOT state that you need the DM's approval for a custom background. That is what the current rules say. So not only are you wrong about the new one putting more on the DM, it is actually the exact opposite.
And as far as stupid responses goes Kotath finds a way to make a dozy again. He just keeps one upping himself in his inability to actually put any form of thought into what he is saying.
Equipment is easy to edit: this entire section once again really speaks to the fact that you don't play much pen and paper and play a lot online. You can write anything on the sheet, the ease of an online tool to do something isn't relevant. Also again no RULES for equipment so while you can easily add equipment by writing it down or through an online app, deciding what SHOULD be added, not so much. For example the Urchin provides proficiency with thieves tools and yet, they don't have any thieves tools so just because the person is proficient with the tool because of their custom background doesn't mean they should start with that tool.
And the best one Failing the understand the feature argument: All the CURRENT features that you are fighting so hard to keep basically boil down to the background does what the background says it is and implies it should do. But AGAIN, for the 10th time, there are no RULES for creating features. The player could ask for what ever feature they wanted, and since there are no RULES for creating that feature the onus is on the GM entirely to figure it out. Now the GM could be like Yes your witch doctor is indeed a witch doctor when creating the feature or yep the fortune teller tells fortunes, or the investigator is an investigator, making it as useless and pointless as the rest of the features. OR because again NO RULES for creating the feature, the GM could accidently over do it and make the feature into basically a Feat, and since some feats are pretty flavorful and weak... it is possible they make it something more POWERFUL than most feats unlike the rest of the features. Because again, there is no rules, no guidance NOTHING to tell a GM how to make a feature, but they NEED a feature for this custom background.
The fact that this is hard to grasp and you guys somehow think the new system puts more on the DM than THIS, is what makes you dumb, not that you disagree with me. It is simple inability to comprehend the most basic of concepts.
But you are right it is very rude of me to call you guys stupid, I tried to walk it back because of the heat of the moment, but hey might as well.
I feel like I should specify I don't think either of these background creation systems are better than the other maybe superior's a better word either way I think they both have their merits and demerits I simply prefer the role play focus aspect of the current system this is partly because I feel like we already have enough features from many other sources and I'm going to say right now if you think a custom background is not going to require DM approval then I have some news for you and as far as kotaths arguments are concerned he is using an actual style of debate I can remember the name for it but it boils down to take your opponent's arguments to the extreme which is something a few other people do on here as well and finally sorry about the lack of punctuation in this I'm using voice recognition because I'm at work can't use my hands to type
You are perfectly fine. In all honesty I really do regret calling you dumb, and do not actually believe that for you. The style of debate is called a series of straw man and slippery slope arguments all of which are heavy logical fallacies. By replacing my arguments with the most extreme version of them instead of actually addressing any of them or listening or understanding any of them he is further devolving the conversation and making increasingly worse arguments as it gets further and further from the actual point. Never debate this way if you want to be taken seriously.
The new UA is short hand, of course they are going to add narrative fluff, and needing DM approval, under the UA rules, is not needed. Some DMs may require it, but that won't be all. I already know at least 3 DM's that I could put any backstory with any combination of abilities in front of them and they will straight up say, ok cool sounds great, you ready. Actually, make that 6. I can think of 2 that would say wait what can you elaborate? And then I would and they would likely go.. "WHAT? that is awesome ok lets go" because mechanically it doesn't matter and they know that.
Edit: That said, there are a lot of famous people who argue this way as well, but that is usually because they are appealing to a specific crowd that is already on their own side and are simply helping to confirm the audiences bias. In this case neither Kotath or those who argue this way are doing so in good faith, instead they are attempting to use persuasive writing. Persuasive writing appeals to emotions more than logic. Of course, this is a game where emotions matter greatly and how you FEEL can often be more important than what is actually logically sound. Because at the end of the day it is played FOR the feelings of fun.
And how many of those 6 DM's will let you do exactly as you wish with that background in actual play? Let you decide what contacts your character has, how useful those contacts are, etc?
You are going to need to define "exactly what you wish with that background". Obviously they aren't going to allow absolutely ridiculous things but if the back story makes sense to know somebody where I am or may have some connections than all of them. I gave a perfectly fine example already with the fortune teller story. In the current system you and the GM would have to figure out a feature without any rules on how to do that. Under UA, it is just a natural occurrence with the game. When the situation presents itself and it makes sense with the backstory... all 6 would allow it. You lose nothing from the features in actual gameplay.
In the CURRENT rules you need MASSIVE DM oversight if you want to create a custom background and not use one of the premade ones. Because they have to create an entire new feature for you, this feature needs to be tailor made for your specific custom background the way you wrote it. It can't be too powerful and there are no rules on how to make them. In addition, the DM has to decide what items make sense with your background and after you have items what arbitrary money amount it is going to have. Again all without any rules what so ever to help the DM with this, nothing they could infer or imply beyond the skills, and either languages or tools, they don't even have the ASI to go off of.
The UA rules specifically DO NOT state that you need the DM's approval for a custom background. That is what the current rules say. So not only are you wrong about the new one putting more on the DM, it is actually the exact opposite.
If your DM is ok under the new system with you making up your own features without their involvement, why would they not show you similar trust under the current system? And if they want more oversight than you are comfortable with under the current system, why would they not be the same under the new, regardless of what the rules say? Right now they do not give you any aspect of the current features, those things you insist the DM should assume are associated with that background.
No matter how much you try to spin it, they simply don't. They do not say you can make up such additional things on your own. And if there are balancing issues there, again, that is something that should involve the DM. And you still are arguing that DM's and players are stupid if they do not assume these things but they require too much intelligence to balance properly to have pre-set feature options.
You also completely ignored my saying 'If they want to standardize starting equipment,' that would be ok. All backgrounds could start with the same 50gp , to be used pre-start for equipment, any change kept in coin.
Again, the features are gone under the new system. You don't make them up, you write a backstory any "feature" just comes about naturally in play.
With custom backgrounds you can take features form one background and use it for your custom background. This is not an issue currently since in most cases, again, the feature would simply let you do what the backstory already implied you could do and having it or not having it changed nothing about the custom background or the non-custom background and any GM, that isn't dumb, would have had these things naturally occur in game regardless. The point when it becomes a real problem is when the GM wants to create a brand new feature to fit with the characters background. If you do not understand the problem with that I suggest you go back and re-read my previous posts it explains the problem with that. Try typing back to me in your own words what I said the problem with the GM trying to create a new feature is.
Edit: Under the new system the GM knows there are strict boundaries of what you can and can't do mechanically with backgrounds. Everyone will have a 1st level feat, everyone will have a +2 and a +1 or 3 +1's. Everyone will have a tool, everyone will have 2 skills everyone will have a language. The 6 DM's are not going to care how I put that together.
Edit 2: here let me give an example of a custom background under the current system vs new system. I am a Fallen Diety, I have History and Religion skills, I am proficient with smithing tools and the Celestial language. My custom feature is Immortality, I can't die. 100% my GM's are having a problem with this under current custom background rules. Same Fallen Diety, +2 Charisma +1 Con, History, Religion, Smithing tool and the Celestial Language, I have the magic initiate feat divine. My GM will raise an eyebrow and go "really, fallen god.... alright."
Honestly I feel like they should have divided backgrounds into two separate things the first one would have been what are you are you a guard maybe a criminal or perhaps a noble this would have given you your background feature the ones we currently have in fifth edition then there could have been a who are you are you a brawler then you get the tough feat are you a scholar perhaps you would get the magic initiate feat and these two things would have made up your background.
*Edit because as painful as it may be to admit some people do in fact need what they're capable of based on their background to be spelled out for them, also they can just make creating character concepts easier.
Honestly I feel like they should have divided backgrounds into two separate things the first one would have been what are you are you a guard maybe a criminal or perhaps a noble this would have given you your background feature the ones we currently have in fifth edition then there could have been a who are you are you a brawler then you get the tough feat are you a scholar perhaps you would get the magic initiate feat and these two things would have made up your background.
*Edit because as painful as it may be to admit some people do in fact need what they're capable of based on their background to be spelled out for them, also they can just make creating character concepts easier.
This is fair. I just don't want to lose the customization options. Things like Fortune tellers and witch doctors and a plethora of other backgrounds simply do not exist and I know many who find the constraints limiting. If they are going to make features a thing I really think rules need to be established for them.
You are going to need to define "exactly what you wish with that background". Obviously they aren't going to allow absolutely ridiculous things but if the back story makes sense to know somebody where I am or may have some connections than all of them. I gave a perfectly fine example already with the fortune teller story. In the current system you and the GM would have to figure out a feature without any rules on how to do that. Under UA, it is just a natural occurrence with the game. When the situation presents itself and it makes sense with the backstory... all 6 would allow it. You lose nothing from the features in actual gameplay.
What would be harder about figuring out anything in the current rules than in the new?
And pardon, which was the fortune teller? I can find a Witch Doctor cartographer who allegedly is a sailor (despite no skills actually relating to sailing) and has a herbalism kit, even though they have no stated proficiency in it but rather cartography instead...
Or later, the child of innkeepers who is a herbalist.
If your character has a background in fortune telling, what does that mean? Were they a fakir, deceiving people with fake fortunes? That would be covered by skills in either version. Or do they have actual divinatory power? In which case bloody straight that needs to be worked out with the DM what that means. It may well be as simple as giving them Magic Initiate feat with divination spells. Done. Either version. It may mean something different. But what is so difficult to work out there?
You do not get the Magic Initiate feat under current custom background rules, only with the new rules. If the GM Gave a feat to one player because they made a custom background as their "feature" and only the features to others that would not be fair. Under the current system this is not a solution, under the new system it is. You have exactly proven my point. As for where, it was in the edits above, just scroll up.
You would think the rules would already exist since features are already a thing but I feel like background features were very much a secondary concern so they didn't put a lot of thought into it which is why some background features can be really powerful in certain situations and really weak in others
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If I can't say something nice, I try to not say anything at all. So if I suddenly stop participating in a topic that's probably why.
Out of curiosity is there a reason why some of you seem to believe that the custom background option that is already present is not enough, I keep seeing you give reasons why the current backgrounds are either subpar useless etc but no one as far as I can recall as explain why the custom background is not good enough.
because the current R5e rules makes it exceedingly plain that "Custom Background", or in fact any modification of an existing background, is a means of last-resort desperation a DM should only permit if they have no other reasonable choice. A point everyone who keeps championing the current R5e rules and trying to get the entire OPT document and indeed all of 1DD thrown out keeps forgetting.
Which, to that point: Kotath! Challenge for you!
Tell me which background suits that example character I laid out a few pages ago. An innkeeper's daughter with no hope of inheriting the family inn, who spent a few years studying with the village apothecary instead prior to traveling and beginning her Adventure. Tell me how to represent that character's background in R5e, without any background customization or modification at all, WHATSOEVER. Because not only are the R5e rules for modifying backgrounds terrible, but they are intended as a measure of last-resort desperation a DM should only permit if they have no other reasonable choice.
So tell me, Kotath. How do I make this character in R5e that I think everybody here would agree is a perfectly reasonable, logical, and acceptable thing to want to play? You want the OPT system thrown out and all origin customization rules with it, so tell me - where in R5e is the ability to play this character?
It means you start with these things. It does not mean you cannot build them up during play. They are backgrounds. Whether they build to anything more than shadows of your character's past is up to the actions of your character in play, what you do with those connections, etc. Meanwhile, life goes on and new connections, new knowledge are gained, power and/or authority is gained... or lost....
And again bloody heck, you scroll up in this very post. The feature of sage is not letting you research. ANYONE CAN RESEARCH, background or not. When Sages fail at a stage of research, they know where to go or what to do to carry on. It is misunderstandings like that that lead me to believe that those complaining about these features have not actually read them. Or even read what is being said about any given specific feature. (Edit: And to clarify, since some context is lost there, the lines with dots are from Yurei and the indented hyphen'd bits are my replies to their comments.)
If you write something off in your mind as useless, then you have rendered it useless no matter what it is or how good it really is.
They're not useless. They're detrimental. If you make a chatacter who's lived a life of a detective, he's supposed to know his fellow guards, his part of the city, the criminal underworld to an extent. Background limits you to only one of those things.
Then there's hospitality backgrounds. They don't work if the DM doesn't want it for story reasons. Simple as that. Or every one of them works. For everyone. Again, story reasons.
What I'm trying to say, those old backgrounds set in stone the stuff that you should work through with your DM. And their removal actually removes nothing. You still can play as if you have any of them, but the extent and additional features, like prior reputation, are... up to you and DM.
I believe it goes in line with liberation from good ol' alignment grid. It was creating walls and rails rather than genuinely good roleplay.
Again with the straw man, where you insist that we both ignore the fact the custom rules currently exist.... but I nevertheless accept.
Here is the target as you laid described it: ""My family were inkeepers, but I was the third daughter and had no hope of inheriting the inn, so I studied with the village apothecary and learned the basics of medicine instead before deciding to travel and broaden my knowledge"
Basic description: "You come from a humble social rank, but you are destined for so much more. Already the people of your home village regard you as their champion, and your destiny calls you to stand against the tyrants and monsters that threaten the common folk everywhere."
- As the daughter of the innkeepers and a skilled apothecary on top of that, she would be quite beloved in her village. Indeed a classic folk hero background.
Skill Proficiencies: Animal Handling, Survival(Both fit. Her duties as an apothecary would include veterinary work and also she might need parts from various animals for her herbalism, so Animal Handling. Survival includes foraging, which fits perfectly for an apothecary).
Tool Proficiencies: One type of artisan’s tools, vehicles (land) (Herbalist's kit, there you go, apothecary)
Equipment: A set of artisan’s tools (one of your choice), a shovel, an iron pot, a set of common clothes, and a pouch containing 10 gp (Starts with her tools and a bit of gold, 'nuff said)
Now, since you are ruling out custom backgrounds, which of the UA Sample backgrounds fits her perfectly?
A stretch, Kotath. An apothecary without Medicine proficiency? 'Folk Hero'? Hero of what? Getting Farmer Fred's stubborn draft horse to take its suppository without getting kicked? I'll admit, closer than I believed the system would get, but I also know that the character would never be allowed to use her herbalism or medicinal skills at a table run by your rules because she's a Folk Hero, not an apprentice apothecary. That means she's limited to strictly, solely, and wholly doing things Folk heroes do.
And that's the beautiful part. Unlike R5e, which actively discourages any form of background customization, the OPT document as written gives "custom background" primacy. You are SUPPOSED to rig up a custom background to fit your precise concept, that is the primary method of character generation in the OPT document. So. You followed your preferred rules, which were to hammer a square peg into a vaguely squarish-looking hole if you squint hard enough while forcing the player to discard any elements of their desired origin that do not fit a standard background. Lemme try mine, hm?
Journeyman Apothecary Ability Scores: +INT, +1DEX, +1 WIS Skills: Medicine, Survival Tool: Herbalism Kit Language: Goblin Feat: Healer Gear: Traveler's Clothes (2gp), Quarterstaff (0.2gp), Herbalism Kit (15gp), Healer's Kit (5gp), 2x pouch (1gp), 2x flasks (0.04gp), mess kit (0.2gp). 24gp 24sp 16cp Desc: Born to an innkeeper's family, you spent your early youth in the homey comfort of your family's inn cheerfully getting underfoot and listening to wild tales spun by travelers from both near and far. As the fourth child in line though, you had no hope of inheriting your family's inn, and so you were apprenticed to your village's old apothecary to learn a trade. The old widower was brusque and took some getting used to, but you discovered a talent for the work and a quiet joy in the exacting process of distilling herbs into useful compounds. One day, your master surprised you by thrusting a pack of traveling gear into your hands and telling you to leave. She told you that your talent was wasted here in a sleepy little nothing of a village, and that she saw more in you than tending to hangovers and animal bellyaches. Anyone who could successfully befriend the goblin tribes in the area and gather herbs from their lands had more going for them than what you were doing here. Your master awarded you the title of journeyman and told you to journey, man...and so here you are, with your share of your family's simple savings in hand, in search of all the meaning your crotchety old master sent you off to find.
That honestly sounds like fun. Could be a ranger, perhaps, or an artificer. Might even muck with it a bit and go cleric, perhaps she left because she heard a god's call. Plenty of ways it could go, but I'll admit this one rubs me the right way in terms of 'Humble Origins' starts. Could easily see myself playing it. Better than Folk Hero anyways, which demands that you already have done something suitably Heroic and rejects the idea you could've had any sort of background in your village before your Hero Moment beyond basic farmer.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please do not contact or message me.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
You realize that feature is BECAUSE of the background AKA the backstory right? So yes, they have spent their ENTIRE LIVES in pursuit of knowledge. Most things you could easily say I read about this ancient tomb in a book. I heard about this guy from another professor... so on and so forth. And no I am not arguing no rules are needed for anything. Again this is the circle logic that has reached levels of utter stupidity at this point. Every. Single. Feature. exists because the backstory would make the feature make sense. If the backstory is already there, you don't need the feature. BECAUSE the feature is JUST a flavor ribbon feature that REITERATES what the background is and it may never even come up in a game for a vast majority of the backgrounds. This is the SAME with SKILL checks, and ability checks and every other rule in the game. You don't need to HARD DEFINE what you can know with Arcane check, you don't need to HARD DEFINE what you can do with an athletics check. Each and every skill covers a wide variety of actions and abilities and we DON'T have rules for what each and every one of those actions is. And just like we do not need or have rules for every little thing that each and every skill can do, we also don't need rules for "hey my backstory allows me to do the things that my character has basically done there entire life up until this point." And "they have the connections and influence with the people places and things they have literally interacted with their entire lives up until this point." This is especially true for those super long lived races.
Also maybe you just asked a great question, Why the hell does sage get to know where to find EVERY piece of information. Maybe they SHOULDN'T. Maybe that doesn't actually make sense and the feature you are talking about is nonsensical and would be better off gone and allowing the DM to use their judgement about your connections and their limits. In both cases, this argument is exhaustive and dumb.
Out of curiosity is there a reason why some of you seem to believe that the custom background option that is already present is not enough, I keep seeing you give reasons why the current backgrounds are either subpar useless etc but no one as far as I can recall as explain why the custom background is not good enough.
If I can't say something nice, I try to not say anything at all. So if I suddenly stop participating in a topic that's probably why.
As a curiosity, what are you going to do when they remove background features? Since you seem to be having trouble making those calls yourself, how are you going to handle these things when they aren't explicitly written out for you? Hell, how are you handling it now when your players want to do something that doesn't explicitly have a rule for it?
I believe this is what's referred to as arguing for the sake of arguing. Or maybe he did what I said earlier and didn't actually read it for more accurately comprehend it.
If I can't say something nice, I try to not say anything at all. So if I suddenly stop participating in a topic that's probably why.
I am saying the feature thing is USELESS to the DM and the player and is beyond stupid that it even exists. All of the stupid things the features say are implied by either the name of the background or by the bloody backstory. If they weren't reading the backstory they weren't reading the feature. It is really, really, really easy to understand.
No background exists without the backstory. A title is not everything. DONT. BE. AN. IDIOT. I feel like this shouldn't be hard for me to ask this of you.
Edit: also Sage suggests an older individual technically, we have races that live almost a thousand years AND when I say Entire Lives I obviously mean Entire life up until the point of becoming an adventurer. Again dont be stupid. It shouldn't be a hard ask.
Well because you could have features that don't work for said backstory, their are no rules in the current custom background for equipment so you take a huge nerf to that. There are no rules for how to create a feature that would be fair, not like the features themselves are meaningful in anyway they all basically just say something along the lines of "you are what you said you were". The custom background right now are entirely insufficient because it lacks the tools to fully create a background. The UA gives you exactly how to create a background from top to bottom, money and your feature is pick a feat that makes sense for someone of the background you came up with, and the feats are generic enough to NOT try to be a defining role play function like these features are stupidly trying to do.
Deleted: unneeded has already been said, just like everything has already been said here.
Edit: All of these features basically read like if a class said "Cleric: as a Cleric you are a divine priest able to cast holy spells" and that was the entire rule you were given about Clerics. These features aren't rules they are barely reminders that you are what you said you were. Outlander who lives their entire lives in the wilds... can find food in the wilds... well no duh. Would have been kinda hard to survive that way if you couldn't. Oh look the guy that studies about ancient knowledge knows where to find information about ancient knowledge, who would have thunk? The Sailor can use his skills to sail and thus sell those skills for free passage.... The Noble, is treated like a Noble WILD who could have figured that one out. An Acolyte of a faith... is treated like an Acolyte of that faith.... things are getting wild stop the presses. The charlatan who spends his life conning people has ALIASES... never could have figured that out in a million years, genius I say. What is next? The criminal has criminal contacts..... shut up now you have gone too far what will they come up with next. OH I know the Entertainer... is entertaining WOW really. Or the Folk hero is treated like a hero. Man this is becoming too much I can't wait to see the next one. Oh guild artisan what is it going to be?.... is it going to be you are part of a guild and are treated like part of the guild? OH IT IS that is hilarious. Hermit is actually interesting, they are a wise old hermit who knows some great secret of the universe, which is what most people think of when you say wise old hermit so I guess not that interesting. And we are back to the soldier is treated like a soldier imagine that. And finally the urchin, who lived their entire lives on the street of the city, knows the streets of the city.... fascinating clearly these are rules that were meaningful and needed to be spelled out, I mean next your going to tell me that poop.... smells like poop.
Moved down to just keep it here better.
So a common argument you keep making is that because it's implied it does not need to be stated the issue with that is the implied part because if something is only implied that means it's not a guarantee that you can do it, now granted a DM can always ban certain backgrounds and that's okay if a DM feels the background is overpowered they're allowed to remove it. But barring circumstances such as that one you never actually need DM oversight when creating your character as far as mechanics are concerned with the new build your own background it is explicitly stated you need to get DM approval, which like I said earlier is another way to add more shit to the DMs plate. Also I know you removed it but really calling us idiots because we have a different opinion not cool.
If I can't say something nice, I try to not say anything at all. So if I suddenly stop participating in a topic that's probably why.
I was not calling you idiots because you disagree, but because you continually fail to understand extremely simple things. Like in this case you don't need DM oversight at all in creating the current backgrounds, all the mechanical rules for backgrounds are clearly defined and spelled out. All you have to do is SHARE your backstory with the DM and then trust the DM isn't a raging idiot. DM may not even use your backstory, but you will still have all the mechanical benefits from it. In the CURRENT rules you need MASSIVE DM oversight if you want to create a custom background and not use one of the premade ones. Because they have to create an entire new feature for you, this feature needs to be tailor made for your specific custom background the way you wrote it. It can't be too powerful and there are no rules on how to make them. In addition, the DM has to decide what items make sense with your background and after you have items what arbitrary money amount it is going to have. Again all without any rules what so ever to help the DM with this, nothing they could infer or imply beyond the skills, and either languages or tools, they don't even have the ASI to go off of.
The UA rules specifically DO NOT state that you need the DM's approval for a custom background. That is what the current rules say. So not only are you wrong about the new one putting more on the DM, it is actually the exact opposite.
And as far as stupid responses goes Kotath finds a way to make a dozy again. He just keeps one upping himself in his inability to actually put any form of thought into what he is saying.
Equipment is easy to edit: this entire section once again really speaks to the fact that you don't play much pen and paper and play a lot online. You can write anything on the sheet, the ease of an online tool to do something isn't relevant. Also again no RULES for equipment so while you can easily add equipment by writing it down or through an online app, deciding what SHOULD be added, not so much. For example the Urchin provides proficiency with thieves tools and yet, they don't have any thieves tools so just because the person is proficient with the tool because of their custom background doesn't mean they should start with that tool.
And the best one Failing the understand the feature argument: All the CURRENT features that you are fighting so hard to keep basically boil down to the background does what the background says it is and implies it should do. But AGAIN, for the 10th time, there are no RULES for creating features. The player could ask for what ever feature they wanted, and since there are no RULES for creating that feature the onus is on the GM entirely to figure it out. Now the GM could be like Yes your witch doctor is indeed a witch doctor when creating the feature or yep the fortune teller tells fortunes, or the investigator is an investigator, making it as useless and pointless as the rest of the features. OR because again NO RULES for creating the feature, the GM could accidently over do it and make the feature into basically a Feat, and since some feats are pretty flavorful and weak... it is possible they make it something more POWERFUL than most feats unlike the rest of the features. Because again, there is no rules, no guidance NOTHING to tell a GM how to make a feature, but they NEED a feature for this custom background.
The fact that this is hard to grasp and you guys somehow think the new system puts more on the DM than THIS, is what makes you dumb, not that you disagree with me. It is simple inability to comprehend the most basic of concepts.
But you are right it is very rude of me to call you guys stupid, I tried to walk it back because of the heat of the moment, but hey might as well.
Edit: of course with the new rules since you don't need to make a feature because the player has a feat the backstory/ background "feature" will just be a natural occurrence of the game. They don't have to come up with anything mechanical it is simply the player going "hey my character was a Fortune teller, can I x because I was a fortune teller?" and the GM goes yay or nay for it depending on if it makes sense in the moment to moment rather than coming up with a feature that is specific to the job, but generic to encompass the job or, most likely, roll an x check for it and the game flows on without a hitch or a thought to the problem.
I feel like I should specify I don't think either of these background creation systems are better than the other maybe superior's a better word either way I think they both have their merits and demerits I simply prefer the role play focus aspect of the current system this is partly because I feel like we already have enough features from many other sources and I'm going to say right now if you think a custom background is not going to require DM approval then I have some news for you and as far as kotaths arguments are concerned he is using an actual style of debate I can remember the name for it but it boils down to take your opponent's arguments to the extreme which is something a few other people do on here as well and finally sorry about the lack of punctuation in this I'm using voice recognition because I'm at work can't use my hands to type
If I can't say something nice, I try to not say anything at all. So if I suddenly stop participating in a topic that's probably why.
You are perfectly fine. In all honesty I really do regret calling you dumb, and do not actually believe that for you. The style of debate is called a series of straw man and slippery slope arguments all of which are heavy logical fallacies. By replacing my arguments with the most extreme version of them instead of actually addressing any of them or listening or understanding any of them he is further devolving the conversation and making increasingly worse arguments as it gets further and further from the actual point. Never debate this way if you want to be taken seriously.
The new UA is short hand, of course they are going to add narrative fluff, and needing DM approval, under the UA rules, is not needed. Some DMs may require it, but that won't be all. I already know at least 3 DM's that I could put any backstory with any combination of abilities in front of them and they will straight up say, ok cool sounds great, you ready. Actually, make that 6. I can think of 2 that would say wait what can you elaborate? And then I would and they would likely go.. "WHAT? that is awesome ok lets go" because mechanically it doesn't matter and they know that.
Edit: That said, there are a lot of famous people who argue this way as well, but that is usually because they are appealing to a specific crowd that is already on their own side and are simply helping to confirm the audiences bias. In this case neither Kotath or those who argue this way are doing so in good faith, instead they are attempting to use persuasive writing. Persuasive writing appeals to emotions more than logic. Of course, this is a game where emotions matter greatly and how you FEEL can often be more important than what is actually logically sound. Because at the end of the day it is played FOR the feelings of fun.
You are going to need to define "exactly what you wish with that background". Obviously they aren't going to allow absolutely ridiculous things but if the back story makes sense to know somebody where I am or may have some connections than all of them. I gave a perfectly fine example already with the fortune teller story. In the current system you and the GM would have to figure out a feature without any rules on how to do that. Under UA, it is just a natural occurrence with the game. When the situation presents itself and it makes sense with the backstory... all 6 would allow it. You lose nothing from the features in actual gameplay.
Again, the features are gone under the new system. You don't make them up, you write a backstory any "feature" just comes about naturally in play.
With custom backgrounds you can take features form one background and use it for your custom background. This is not an issue currently since in most cases, again, the feature would simply let you do what the backstory already implied you could do and having it or not having it changed nothing about the custom background or the non-custom background and any GM, that isn't dumb, would have had these things naturally occur in game regardless. The point when it becomes a real problem is when the GM wants to create a brand new feature to fit with the characters background. If you do not understand the problem with that I suggest you go back and re-read my previous posts it explains the problem with that. Try typing back to me in your own words what I said the problem with the GM trying to create a new feature is.
Edit: Under the new system the GM knows there are strict boundaries of what you can and can't do mechanically with backgrounds. Everyone will have a 1st level feat, everyone will have a +2 and a +1 or 3 +1's. Everyone will have a tool, everyone will have 2 skills everyone will have a language. The 6 DM's are not going to care how I put that together.
Edit 2: here let me give an example of a custom background under the current system vs new system. I am a Fallen Diety, I have History and Religion skills, I am proficient with smithing tools and the Celestial language. My custom feature is Immortality, I can't die. 100% my GM's are having a problem with this under current custom background rules.
Same Fallen Diety, +2 Charisma +1 Con, History, Religion, Smithing tool and the Celestial Language, I have the magic initiate feat divine. My GM will raise an eyebrow and go "really, fallen god.... alright."
Honestly I feel like they should have divided backgrounds into two separate things the first one would have been what are you are you a guard maybe a criminal or perhaps a noble this would have given you your background feature the ones we currently have in fifth edition then there could have been a who are you are you a brawler then you get the tough feat are you a scholar perhaps you would get the magic initiate feat and these two things would have made up your background.
*Edit because as painful as it may be to admit some people do in fact need what they're capable of based on their background to be spelled out for them, also they can just make creating character concepts easier.
If I can't say something nice, I try to not say anything at all. So if I suddenly stop participating in a topic that's probably why.
This is fair. I just don't want to lose the customization options. Things like Fortune tellers and witch doctors and a plethora of other backgrounds simply do not exist and I know many who find the constraints limiting. If they are going to make features a thing I really think rules need to be established for them.
You do not get the Magic Initiate feat under current custom background rules, only with the new rules. If the GM Gave a feat to one player because they made a custom background as their "feature" and only the features to others that would not be fair. Under the current system this is not a solution, under the new system it is. You have exactly proven my point. As for where, it was in the edits above, just scroll up.
Congrats on proving my point for me by the way.
You would think the rules would already exist since features are already a thing but I feel like background features were very much a secondary concern so they didn't put a lot of thought into it which is why some background features can be really powerful in certain situations and really weak in others
If I can't say something nice, I try to not say anything at all. So if I suddenly stop participating in a topic that's probably why.
because the current R5e rules makes it exceedingly plain that "Custom Background", or in fact any modification of an existing background, is a means of last-resort desperation a DM should only permit if they have no other reasonable choice. A point everyone who keeps championing the current R5e rules and trying to get the entire OPT document and indeed all of 1DD thrown out keeps forgetting.
Which, to that point: Kotath! Challenge for you!
Tell me which background suits that example character I laid out a few pages ago. An innkeeper's daughter with no hope of inheriting the family inn, who spent a few years studying with the village apothecary instead prior to traveling and beginning her Adventure. Tell me how to represent that character's background in R5e, without any background customization or modification at all, WHATSOEVER. Because not only are the R5e rules for modifying backgrounds terrible, but they are intended as a measure of last-resort desperation a DM should only permit if they have no other reasonable choice.
So tell me, Kotath. How do I make this character in R5e that I think everybody here would agree is a perfectly reasonable, logical, and acceptable thing to want to play? You want the OPT system thrown out and all origin customization rules with it, so tell me - where in R5e is the ability to play this character?
Please do not contact or message me.
They're not useless. They're detrimental. If you make a chatacter who's lived a life of a detective, he's supposed to know his fellow guards, his part of the city, the criminal underworld to an extent. Background limits you to only one of those things.
Then there's hospitality backgrounds. They don't work if the DM doesn't want it for story reasons. Simple as that. Or every one of them works. For everyone. Again, story reasons.
What I'm trying to say, those old backgrounds set in stone the stuff that you should work through with your DM. And their removal actually removes nothing. You still can play as if you have any of them, but the extent and additional features, like prior reputation, are... up to you and DM.
I believe it goes in line with liberation from good ol' alignment grid. It was creating walls and rails rather than genuinely good roleplay.
A stretch, Kotath. An apothecary without Medicine proficiency? 'Folk Hero'? Hero of what? Getting Farmer Fred's stubborn draft horse to take its suppository without getting kicked? I'll admit, closer than I believed the system would get, but I also know that the character would never be allowed to use her herbalism or medicinal skills at a table run by your rules because she's a Folk Hero, not an apprentice apothecary. That means she's limited to strictly, solely, and wholly doing things Folk heroes do.
And that's the beautiful part. Unlike R5e, which actively discourages any form of background customization, the OPT document as written gives "custom background" primacy. You are SUPPOSED to rig up a custom background to fit your precise concept, that is the primary method of character generation in the OPT document. So. You followed your preferred rules, which were to hammer a square peg into a vaguely squarish-looking hole if you squint hard enough while forcing the player to discard any elements of their desired origin that do not fit a standard background. Lemme try mine, hm?
Journeyman Apothecary
Ability Scores: +INT, +1DEX, +1 WIS
Skills: Medicine, Survival
Tool: Herbalism Kit
Language: Goblin
Feat: Healer
Gear: Traveler's Clothes (2gp), Quarterstaff (0.2gp), Herbalism Kit (15gp), Healer's Kit (5gp), 2x pouch (1gp), 2x flasks (0.04gp), mess kit (0.2gp). 24gp 24sp 16cp
Desc: Born to an innkeeper's family, you spent your early youth in the homey comfort of your family's inn cheerfully getting underfoot and listening to wild tales spun by travelers from both near and far. As the fourth child in line though, you had no hope of inheriting your family's inn, and so you were apprenticed to your village's old apothecary to learn a trade. The old widower was brusque and took some getting used to, but you discovered a talent for the work and a quiet joy in the exacting process of distilling herbs into useful compounds. One day, your master surprised you by thrusting a pack of traveling gear into your hands and telling you to leave. She told you that your talent was wasted here in a sleepy little nothing of a village, and that she saw more in you than tending to hangovers and animal bellyaches. Anyone who could successfully befriend the goblin tribes in the area and gather herbs from their lands had more going for them than what you were doing here. Your master awarded you the title of journeyman and told you to journey, man...and so here you are, with your share of your family's simple savings in hand, in search of all the meaning your crotchety old master sent you off to find.
That honestly sounds like fun. Could be a ranger, perhaps, or an artificer. Might even muck with it a bit and go cleric, perhaps she left because she heard a god's call. Plenty of ways it could go, but I'll admit this one rubs me the right way in terms of 'Humble Origins' starts. Could easily see myself playing it. Better than Folk Hero anyways, which demands that you already have done something suitably Heroic and rejects the idea you could've had any sort of background in your village before your Hero Moment beyond basic farmer.
Please do not contact or message me.