Honestly, this feels like a purely munchkin thing. Charisma simply sees much more obvious use outside combat than intelligenсe, and people just want to seduce barmaids. I never understood why an occultist and master of forbidden knowledge would be about charm and not about knowledge.
Seducing barmaids is a munchkin thing?
3e warlocks weren't occultists - they were born with magic, much as dragon sorcerers are. 4e were certainly occultists and seekers of forbidden knowledge. But 5e? We have a third twist - its all Demonic Tutors (or vampiric, or hag, or whatever).
I mean, I'm down with making the occult theme more prominant in Warlock, but there's so many other ways of your Patron and teacher having a relationship with you. Maybe you get more powerful because you bargained for more power with a devil contract. Or people like the feeling of being the swave devil or trickster fey instead of memorizing books. How much occult studying do you need if you have a sapient weapon tutoring you?
The 3e binder was a seeker of occult lore, and they had CHA as a main stat too. How they went about it was kinda interesting - the binder went out to find names and symbols of beings they wanted to call down to make pacts with to get magic powers. I can kind of see warlocks doing the same thing - no one said you have to stay with the same Patron, after all.
Either way, its all meaningless. There's been overwhelming support for CHA warlocks over two editions. Its clear that's what the player base in general wants, so its not like it'll change, and I'd rather work on making what we have work better
And I dunno, something about constantly wielding a thing made of magic feels like Warcraft-ish high fantasy. For a hexblade, it just feels right to take a mundane weapon and infuse it with secret power, it's a part of being a warlock to pretend to be someone more inconspicuous.
Nothing wrong with Warcraft-ish. Honestly, I feel like that's the reason we end up with martials stuck with mundane abilities. Its too anime. Its too Warcraft-ish. Its too superheroish. Those aren't dirty words.
But well, to each their own. I'm just here to make suggestions and my put my thoughts on improving the game out, not be fun police. If you enjoy the current, then more power to you.
Oh don't even get me started. When you hear "warlock", first thing you think about is dark magic, curses, summoning fiends and other horrors, profane rituals... But to get any cursing spell (like bane, bestow curse, or polymorph), you have to take an invocation, and even then you can cast it only once per day, and it still costs you a precious spell slot. A wizard is a better warlock than warlock!
People wouldn't be insisting that all warlocks needed to be horny morons if Intelligence actually had a function in the game. Give Intelligence an actual function, and maybe people would be less fixated on the idea of forcing all warlocks to be fratboy sex offenders with the intellect of a sack of dead weasels.
Putting aside your unnecessary vitrol (seriously, like, why so super angry?), Intelligence has an actual function.
In my personal experience, however, its mostly traps / puzzles. You spot something in the dungeon, you go all "Ooooh! Magic runes! What do?!" and roll Religion, Investigation, or Arcane (or maybe even Nature if its a Primal spell) to figure out what it does and how to get around it. Well, Investigate is supposed to be for mundane traps, but same idea. Investigate sees through disguises and illusions too, but that's subject to change.
I also use History as the etiquette skill that other games use. Insight is the wisdom-social roll, History is the intelligence-social roll. That's how I personally roll.
Anyways, my point is that INT is mainly a dungeon delving stat. Or B&E stat, if you're a thief trying to ransack that noble's home.
Mostly? I'm super angry because there's currently sixty-nine classes/subclasses that use Charisma as their driving stat, and there's exactly two classes and two subclasses, each of the latter basically being an "initiate" version of the wizard, that give one single soggy ferret fart about Intelligence. Three quarters of the game has an overriding mechanical need for the Schtupping Barmaids stat, absolutely nothing has a need for the Actual Functional Brain stat, and DMs across the nation go out of their way to reinforce this literally idiotic state of affairs. People saying "but why should my warlock need to know stuff?!" drives me nuts. It was said earlier - a warlock makes a bargain for fel power once. One time. At one single point in their existence does the warlock Strike A Bargain. After that? It's exploring their new abilities and adhering to the bargain made. I just get so massively annoyed with the 5e Playerbase's complete rejection of the idea that being ablel to think, reason, and make effective use of information is an actively undesirable skillset to have in this game.
Wizard is by far and large the most popular of the caster classes, no? Even more popular than any half-caster? Every cleric and most paladins I've ever seen has also snagged the Religion skill with a decent INT stat. Same with Rangers/Druids and Nature. Focusing on caster stats really isn't an indication of anyone ignoring the ability to memorize information or solve puzzles.
I've never once, in my four years of playing D&D, had a cleric at the table that was proficient in Religion. Most paladins don't even think of the skill. Rangers are almost never proficient in Nature; Survival yes, Nature no. I'm the only person in my circle who's ever played a ranger that was proficient with Nature.
I've seen real arguments from people that neither the wizard nor the artificer should be intelligence-based - "learning is all about experimenting and figuring things out, right? That's experience, and experience is Wisdom! Why can't I make an arcane caster that relies on Wisdom?!" It's beyond obnoxious, and there's no call for it. If Wizards wants to start introducing dual-stat classes the way Mercer allowed blood hunter players to choose between Wisdom and Intelligence? Then maybe. But if that's the case then I bloody well expect them to do it for warlocks too, and we'll see how many people continue to be horny morons when the option of actually being an intelligent, capable character who knows what they're doing comes into play.
Huh. Weird how experiences differ like that. From my perspective, INT skills seem to be in higher demand than CHA skills, of which the party generally only goes with one. Two if there's a rogue that really likes Deception.
Maybe make a suggestion to give players the option to choose their casting stat in the future for warlock and sorcerer when that playtest comes out? I'm down with more options like that. Though, to be fair, i seriously bet most will stick with CHA. Like I said before, two editions of requesting CHA over INT tells me the demand is high.
As for Wisdom... urgh. Don't get me stared on the crap that is Wisdom. That's a huge pet peeve of mine. No one ever agrees on what it does, and acts like it does everything. Bleh.
Also I think I should note that of all the Warlocks I've seen in play and have played, most of them did not play someone who is horny. But being able to be halfway decent at the social skills has come up, because those are still useful overall.
Anecdotes and differing experiences are a hell of a thing when assessing these issues.
At our table, clerics almost always take Religion as a proficiency, and Intelligence plays a big role in Arcana, History, and Investigation checks.
So neither stat (nor their associated skills) feel lacking or unused for our group, at least.
And for all the juvenile humor that absolutely does get thrown around at our table, we've never once had a character try to seduce a monster or NPC. Just not part of our game.
At our table, clerics almost always take Religion as a proficiency, and Intelligence plays a big role in Arcana, History, and Investigation checks.
So neither stat (nor their associated skills) feel lacking or unused for our group, at least.
And for all the juvenile humor that absolutely does get thrown around at our table, we've never once had a character try to seduce a monster or NPC. Just not part of our game.
Depending on the setting and how much magic is in it, Arcana alone can give you a good chunk of answers to whatever questions you have for the DM about things you find in the world or about the world itself.
You're both arguing in favor of an arbitrary and capricious Dungeon Master. Why?
Because I have yet to observe anything other than one of these two things happening:
Players straight up asking the DM if they can take a short rest, to which the DM will say yes or no, or allow it with a catch
The DM simply stating outright that the party can take a short rest if they need to.
This is part of the reason btw that spells like leomund's tiny hut are so useful even for short rests, despite whatever type of DM you're playing with.
What I usually find is that the DM doesn't get into it. If you want to rest, like if you want to sing, you just have to declare that you do it. Which does not mean that this rest will not be interrupted, or that some DM will clarify that this is not a good place. But I have never encountered a DM, nor have I, that directly denies you the rest. How is the DM going to do that? You as a player decide the actions of your character, and if you want to sit down to eat something and rest, it's up to you. If you do it in a bad place, you may find yourself in trouble. But deciding whether to rest or not is up to you. and I've always seen it go that way. At least in my country, which is the only community I've ever played D&D with.
Huh. Weird how experiences differ like that. From my perspective, INT skills seem to be in higher demand than CHA skills, of which the party generally only goes with one. Two if there's a rogue that really likes Deception.
Maybe make a suggestion to give players the option to choose their casting stat in the future for warlock and sorcerer when that playtest comes out? I'm down with more options like that. Though, to be fair, i seriously bet most will stick with CHA. Like I said before, two editions of requesting CHA over INT tells me the demand is high.
As for Wisdom... urgh. Don't get me stared on the crap that is Wisdom. That's a huge pet peeve of mine. No one ever agrees on what it does, and acts like it does everything. Bleh.
Well its been two editions where the int stat was far worse than the chr stat mechanically. Of course people will argue to get the better stat for the class they want to play.
Huh. Weird how experiences differ like that. From my perspective, INT skills seem to be in higher demand than CHA skills, of which the party generally only goes with one. Two if there's a rogue that really likes Deception.
Maybe make a suggestion to give players the option to choose their casting stat in the future for warlock and sorcerer when that playtest comes out? I'm down with more options like that. Though, to be fair, i seriously bet most will stick with CHA. Like I said before, two editions of requesting CHA over INT tells me the demand is high.
As for Wisdom... urgh. Don't get me stared on the crap that is Wisdom. That's a huge pet peeve of mine. No one ever agrees on what it does, and acts like it does everything. Bleh.
Well its been two editions where the int stat was far worse than the chr stat mechanically. Of course people will argue to get the better stat for the class they want to play.
I think that depends a lot on the campaign that is being played. In a pure dungeon crawling campaign, Char is useless while Wis (Perception) and Int (Investigation and Arcana) are a must. Instead, in a politicking campaign, Char is essential. Or in a wild campaign, you are going to use Survival regularly (when in most campaigns it is useless). In the other hand, that warlocks should go for Int and not Char isn't so much about the usefulness of one ability or another. It's because of the theme of the class. You can play warlock in many ways, of course, but I think the most common archetype is that of a cultist who strikes a deal with a supernatural creature that grants you powers. That cries out for high arcane knowledge. I know that there are people who argue that it is logical that you go to Char because you have convinced or deceived that entity, but really the being has deceived you or has given you powers because you are useful in some way. It is not a negotiation. It is not an equal relationship. You submit to that supernatural being, and you become his pawn. I don't see Char there. I see Arcana (int) to meet and contact that being.
3e warlocks weren't occultists - they were born with magic, much as dragon sorcerers are. 4e were certainly occultists and seekers of forbidden knowledge. But 5e? We have a third twist - its all Demonic Tutors (or vampiric, or hag, or whatever).
I mean, I'm down with making the occult theme more prominant in Warlock, but there's so many other ways of your Patron and teacher having a relationship with you. Maybe you get more powerful because you bargained for more power with a devil contract. Or people like the feeling of being the swave devil or trickster fey instead of memorizing books. How much occult studying do you need if you have a sapient weapon tutoring you?
The 3e binder was a seeker of occult lore, and they had CHA as a main stat too. How they went about it was kinda interesting - the binder went out to find names and symbols of beings they wanted to call down to make pacts with to get magic powers. I can kind of see warlocks doing the same thing - no one said you have to stay with the same Patron, after all.
Either way, its all meaningless. There's been overwhelming support for CHA warlocks over two editions. Its clear that's what the player base in general wants, so its not like it'll change, and I'd rather work on making what we have work better
Thing is, the power that warlock bargains for is knowledge. It's the arcane secrets that warlock searches in the first place, it's all over class description. Sorcerer learns from experience and exercise, wizard learns from the books, warlock learns directly from the teacher. But having high charisma covers for the mechanical part of the social aspect of the game, so its just raw power. And I have to confess - I, in fact, played a horny hexblade. Almost scored with a dragon. But my horniness managed to get Talis (a high ranking officer of the white dragon cult in Hoard of the Dragon Queen campaign) on our side and it became a significant part of the plot and a character's personal storyline.
Huh. Weird how experiences differ like that. From my perspective, INT skills seem to be in higher demand than CHA skills, of which the party generally only goes with one. Two if there's a rogue that really likes Deception.
Maybe make a suggestion to give players the option to choose their casting stat in the future for warlock and sorcerer when that playtest comes out? I'm down with more options like that. Though, to be fair, i seriously bet most will stick with CHA. Like I said before, two editions of requesting CHA over INT tells me the demand is high.
As for Wisdom... urgh. Don't get me stared on the crap that is Wisdom. That's a huge pet peeve of mine. No one ever agrees on what it does, and acts like it does everything. Bleh.
Pathfinder has it. Casters there have subclasses that change the main stat, like theurgist wizard that casts through wisdom.
I feel the same about wisdom. Wisdom being vague and overloaded is likely a heritage of 3e, where it used to govern will saving throws. When all six stats became saving throws, there was a mess. If you count PHB+Xanathar+Tasha, there's 8 spells with int save, 14 spells with cha save, and 48 spells with wis save. And they're distributed pretty arbitrarily. I suggested a solution in a thread about spells - that charisma (your strength of character, determination, resolve, courage) should help against fear, wisdom (awareness, empathy, intuition) helps against charm, and intelligence (analytic ability) helps discern illusions both outside and inside the mind. that makes a plain and solid principle for mental saves.
Pathfinder has it. Casters there have subclasses that change the main stat, like theurgist wizard that casts through wisdom.
I feel the same about wisdom. Wisdom being vague and overloaded is likely a heritage of 3e, where it used to govern will saving throws. When all six stats became saving throws, there was a mess. If you count PHB+Xanathar+Tasha, there's 8 spells with int save, 14 spells with cha save, and 48 spells with wis save. And they're distributed pretty arbitrarily. I suggested a solution in a thread about spells - that charisma (your strength of character, determination, resolve, courage) should help against fear, wisdom (awareness, empathy, intuition) helps against charm, and intelligence (analytic ability) helps discern illusions both outside and inside the mind. that makes a plain and solid principle for mental saves.
Charisma saves do also have a niche for banishment and possession effects, and Intelligence saves do currently have a sort of niche for effects that can muddle or tear apart your mind like feeblemind.
Where would you place those in terms of saving throw types?
You're both arguing in favor of an arbitrary and capricious Dungeon Master. Why?
Because I have yet to observe anything other than one of these two things happening:
Players straight up asking the DM if they can take a short rest, to which the DM will say yes or no, or allow it with a catch
The DM simply stating outright that the party can take a short rest if they need to.
This is part of the reason btw that spells like leomund's tiny hut are so useful even for short rests, despite whatever type of DM you're playing with.
What I usually find is that the DM doesn't get into it. If you want to rest, like if you want to sing, you just have to declare that you do it. Which does not mean that this rest will not be interrupted, or that some DM will clarify that this is not a good place. But I have never encountered a DM, nor have I, that directly denies you the rest. How is the DM going to do that? You as a player decide the actions of your character, and if you want to sit down to eat something and rest, it's up to you. If you do it in a bad place, you may find yourself in trouble. But deciding whether to rest or not is up to you. and I've always seen it go that way. At least in my country, which is the only community I've ever played D&D with.
What I've gathered in this thread is that short rest experiences are highly variable. Some can take many short rests with ease, and some don't really get too many chances to take short rests without risking something happening.
I've been thinking about it, and I think another possible reason WoTC has reduced short rest dependence in mechanics is that they want to streamline their mechanics for design reasons. If everything comes back on a long rest, it's just easier to design features that mesh with each other.
It really isn't that weird. Everyone here is going by their snapshots, if we can even call them that, of their anecdotal experience playing the game. Some of us have been here just for 5e. Others, for decades. And we're all just a disparate few out of tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands.
40,000 people responded to the first survey before the latest preview video was taped, and we all know that isn't even the whole community. We have to stop talking past one another and listen to each other.
As for my own experience with Intelligence, I have two players in a game right now, a druid and a paladin, with proficiency in Nature and Religion, respectively. And I once made a forest gnome barbarian with a 12 in Intelligence and proficiency with Arcana. It takes all kinds of people to move the world.
Pathfinder has it. Casters there have subclasses that change the main stat, like theurgist wizard that casts through wisdom.
I feel the same about wisdom. Wisdom being vague and overloaded is likely a heritage of 3e, where it used to govern will saving throws. When all six stats became saving throws, there was a mess. If you count PHB+Xanathar+Tasha, there's 8 spells with int save, 14 spells with cha save, and 48 spells with wis save. And they're distributed pretty arbitrarily. I suggested a solution in a thread about spells - that charisma (your strength of character, determination, resolve, courage) should help against fear, wisdom (awareness, empathy, intuition) helps against charm, and intelligence (analytic ability) helps discern illusions both outside and inside the mind. that makes a plain and solid principle for mental saves.
Charisma saves do also have a niche for banishment and possession effects, and Intelligence saves do currently have a sort of niche for effects that can muddle or tear apart your mind like feeblemind.
Where would you place those in terms of saving throw types?
I'd consider possession a contest of wills, so it's definitely a charisma save. Feeblemind tries to erase intellect, so it's logical to resist it with intelligence. Not sure what t0 make of banishment. It's not like it's trying to trick (wis) the target's mind or subdue it (cha). So probably intelligence, as the target is momentarily pulled into a labyrinthine passage between worlds and has to figure a way back.
Something to keep in mind is that Int + Investigate is used to resist illusions and disguises. If we go the same we that grappling did and make it a regular save... INT will be the anti-illusion save.
WIS is anti-mind manipulation (an extension of Insight skill, as most deal with variations of Charmed or Frightened), INT would be illusion (Investigate), and CHA is anything else (catch all?). This kinda makes sense to me, as Insight is basically the default skill used to resist any of the three Charisma skills, and Investigate is what is used to oppose disguises and forgeries.
There's nothing in Charisma that is used to resist bad luck, extraplanar nonsense, possession, people forcing you to wear an illusion... I can see resisting Calm Emotion (perform invokes emotion) and Zone of Truth (deception), but the rest are just weird.
Again, loading too much onto wisdom, just like it is now. I think it makes sense to distribute mind effects by principle of fear and charm - these are very clear mechanical markers. And it makes sense that charisma, representing strength of character, confidence and courage, would help against fear, effects that try to break and subdue one's will.
Con saving throws are overloaded, too. Dex are pretty clear, but str is barely used. Id' say that there should be a clear divide - str against effects from the outside, while con against effects from the inside. When you're battered by falling rocks or struck by a shockwave, it should be str saving throw. When you're hurt from within by poison, disease, or necrosis and aging effects, that would be con.
Sure. Insight to resist Intimidation and Persuasion always felt odd to me. Like, they're not lies, so using Insight to oppose Intimidation just lets you know they want to hurt you? But its what I've seen people default to for the longest time, and its a thing. Dunno.
Something to keep in mind is that Int + Investigate is used to resist illusions and disguises. If we go the same we that grappling did and make it a regular save... INT will be the anti-illusion save.
WIS is anti-mind manipulation (an extension of Insight skill, as most deal with variations of Charmed or Frightened), INT would be illusion (Investigate), and CHA is anything else (catch all?). This kinda makes sense to me, as Insight is basically the default skill used to resist any of the three Charisma skills, and Investigate is what is used to oppose disguises and forgeries.
There's nothing in Charisma that is used to resist bad luck, extraplanar nonsense, possession, people forcing you to wear an illusion... I can see resisting Calm Emotion (perform invokes emotion) and Zone of Truth (deception), but the rest are just weird.
I think what you might be forgetting is that Charisma in this game represents your force of personality or will, not just your ability to socially interact with others. A powerful angel being able to shake the earth just by exerting its will is a display of Charisma. A person forcing an evil spirit out of themselves that's trying to possess them through sheer force of will is a display of Charisma. Charisma is, as far as the game goes, much more than just being persuasive, intimidating, or deceptive, and it's much more than "I want to seduce X".
That's why many creatures with innate spellcasting use Charisma as their spellcasting ability, and why extraplanar creatures are often Charisma-based in their magical abilities.
The reason banishing effects like banishment, banishing smite, dispel evil and good, and plane shift use Charisma saves is because the creature is using its force of will to remain in the plane it's currently in. So if one thinks possession fits because it's a battle of wills for the victim to maintain control of their own body, banishing effects also fit for CHA saves because it's a battle of wills for the victim to maintain their presence in reality.
Cue meme: "Am I out of touch? No, it is the
childrenCHA fans who are wrong!"Seducing barmaids is a munchkin thing?
3e warlocks weren't occultists - they were born with magic, much as dragon sorcerers are. 4e were certainly occultists and seekers of forbidden knowledge. But 5e? We have a third twist - its all Demonic Tutors (or vampiric, or hag, or whatever).
I mean, I'm down with making the occult theme more prominant in Warlock, but there's so many other ways of your Patron and teacher having a relationship with you. Maybe you get more powerful because you bargained for more power with a devil contract. Or people like the feeling of being the swave devil or trickster fey instead of memorizing books. How much occult studying do you need if you have a sapient weapon tutoring you?
The 3e binder was a seeker of occult lore, and they had CHA as a main stat too. How they went about it was kinda interesting - the binder went out to find names and symbols of beings they wanted to call down to make pacts with to get magic powers. I can kind of see warlocks doing the same thing - no one said you have to stay with the same Patron, after all.
Either way, its all meaningless. There's been overwhelming support for CHA warlocks over two editions. Its clear that's what the player base in general wants, so its not like it'll change, and I'd rather work on making what we have work better
Nothing wrong with Warcraft-ish. Honestly, I feel like that's the reason we end up with martials stuck with mundane abilities. Its too anime. Its too Warcraft-ish. Its too superheroish. Those aren't dirty words.
But well, to each their own. I'm just here to make suggestions and my put my thoughts on improving the game out, not be fun police. If you enjoy the current, then more power to you.
Glad you like them!!
Clerics also make better necromancers than wizard necromancers too. Don't mess with clerics!
Putting aside your unnecessary vitrol (seriously, like, why so super angry?), Intelligence has an actual function.
In my personal experience, however, its mostly traps / puzzles. You spot something in the dungeon, you go all "Ooooh! Magic runes! What do?!" and roll Religion, Investigation, or Arcane (or maybe even Nature if its a Primal spell) to figure out what it does and how to get around it. Well, Investigate is supposed to be for mundane traps, but same idea. Investigate sees through disguises and illusions too, but that's subject to change.
I also use History as the etiquette skill that other games use. Insight is the wisdom-social roll, History is the intelligence-social roll. That's how I personally roll.
Anyways, my point is that INT is mainly a dungeon delving stat. Or B&E stat, if you're a thief trying to ransack that noble's home.
Mostly? I'm super angry because there's currently sixty-nine classes/subclasses that use Charisma as their driving stat, and there's exactly two classes and two subclasses, each of the latter basically being an "initiate" version of the wizard, that give one single soggy ferret fart about Intelligence. Three quarters of the game has an overriding mechanical need for the Schtupping Barmaids stat, absolutely nothing has a need for the Actual Functional Brain stat, and DMs across the nation go out of their way to reinforce this literally idiotic state of affairs. People saying "but why should my warlock need to know stuff?!" drives me nuts. It was said earlier - a warlock makes a bargain for fel power once. One time. At one single point in their existence does the warlock Strike A Bargain. After that? It's exploring their new abilities and adhering to the bargain made. I just get so massively annoyed with the 5e Playerbase's complete rejection of the idea that being ablel to think, reason, and make effective use of information is an actively undesirable skillset to have in this game.
UGH.
Please do not contact or message me.
Wizard is by far and large the most popular of the caster classes, no? Even more popular than any half-caster? Every cleric and most paladins I've ever seen has also snagged the Religion skill with a decent INT stat. Same with Rangers/Druids and Nature. Focusing on caster stats really isn't an indication of anyone ignoring the ability to memorize information or solve puzzles.
I've never once, in my four years of playing D&D, had a cleric at the table that was proficient in Religion. Most paladins don't even think of the skill. Rangers are almost never proficient in Nature; Survival yes, Nature no. I'm the only person in my circle who's ever played a ranger that was proficient with Nature.
I've seen real arguments from people that neither the wizard nor the artificer should be intelligence-based - "learning is all about experimenting and figuring things out, right? That's experience, and experience is Wisdom! Why can't I make an arcane caster that relies on Wisdom?!" It's beyond obnoxious, and there's no call for it. If Wizards wants to start introducing dual-stat classes the way Mercer allowed blood hunter players to choose between Wisdom and Intelligence? Then maybe. But if that's the case then I bloody well expect them to do it for warlocks too, and we'll see how many people continue to be horny morons when the option of actually being an intelligent, capable character who knows what they're doing comes into play.
Please do not contact or message me.
Huh. Weird how experiences differ like that. From my perspective, INT skills seem to be in higher demand than CHA skills, of which the party generally only goes with one. Two if there's a rogue that really likes Deception.
Maybe make a suggestion to give players the option to choose their casting stat in the future for warlock and sorcerer when that playtest comes out? I'm down with more options like that. Though, to be fair, i seriously bet most will stick with CHA. Like I said before, two editions of requesting CHA over INT tells me the demand is high.
As for Wisdom... urgh. Don't get me stared on the crap that is Wisdom. That's a huge pet peeve of mine. No one ever agrees on what it does, and acts like it does everything. Bleh.
Also I think I should note that of all the Warlocks I've seen in play and have played, most of them did not play someone who is horny. But being able to be halfway decent at the social skills has come up, because those are still useful overall.
Anecdotes and differing experiences are a hell of a thing when assessing these issues.
At our table, clerics almost always take Religion as a proficiency, and Intelligence plays a big role in Arcana, History, and Investigation checks.
So neither stat (nor their associated skills) feel lacking or unused for our group, at least.
And for all the juvenile humor that absolutely does get thrown around at our table, we've never once had a character try to seduce a monster or NPC. Just not part of our game.
Depending on the setting and how much magic is in it, Arcana alone can give you a good chunk of answers to whatever questions you have for the DM about things you find in the world or about the world itself.
What I usually find is that the DM doesn't get into it. If you want to rest, like if you want to sing, you just have to declare that you do it. Which does not mean that this rest will not be interrupted, or that some DM will clarify that this is not a good place. But I have never encountered a DM, nor have I, that directly denies you the rest. How is the DM going to do that? You as a player decide the actions of your character, and if you want to sit down to eat something and rest, it's up to you. If you do it in a bad place, you may find yourself in trouble. But deciding whether to rest or not is up to you. and I've always seen it go that way. At least in my country, which is the only community I've ever played D&D with.
Well its been two editions where the int stat was far worse than the chr stat mechanically. Of course people will argue to get the better stat for the class they want to play.
I think that depends a lot on the campaign that is being played. In a pure dungeon crawling campaign, Char is useless while Wis (Perception) and Int (Investigation and Arcana) are a must.
Instead, in a politicking campaign, Char is essential. Or in a wild campaign, you are going to use Survival regularly (when in most campaigns it is useless).
In the other hand, that warlocks should go for Int and not Char isn't so much about the usefulness of one ability or another. It's because of the theme of the class. You can play warlock in many ways, of course, but I think the most common archetype is that of a cultist who strikes a deal with a supernatural creature that grants you powers. That cries out for high arcane knowledge. I know that there are people who argue that it is logical that you go to Char because you have convinced or deceived that entity, but really the being has deceived you or has given you powers because you are useful in some way. It is not a negotiation. It is not an equal relationship. You submit to that supernatural being, and you become his pawn.
I don't see Char there. I see Arcana (int) to meet and contact that being.
Thing is, the power that warlock bargains for is knowledge. It's the arcane secrets that warlock searches in the first place, it's all over class description. Sorcerer learns from experience and exercise, wizard learns from the books, warlock learns directly from the teacher. But having high charisma covers for the mechanical part of the social aspect of the game, so its just raw power. And I have to confess - I, in fact, played a horny hexblade. Almost scored with a dragon. But my horniness managed to get Talis (a high ranking officer of the white dragon cult in Hoard of the Dragon Queen campaign) on our side and it became a significant part of the plot and a character's personal storyline.
Pathfinder has it. Casters there have subclasses that change the main stat, like theurgist wizard that casts through wisdom.
I feel the same about wisdom. Wisdom being vague and overloaded is likely a heritage of 3e, where it used to govern will saving throws. When all six stats became saving throws, there was a mess. If you count PHB+Xanathar+Tasha, there's 8 spells with int save, 14 spells with cha save, and 48 spells with wis save. And they're distributed pretty arbitrarily. I suggested a solution in a thread about spells - that charisma (your strength of character, determination, resolve, courage) should help against fear, wisdom (awareness, empathy, intuition) helps against charm, and intelligence (analytic ability) helps discern illusions both outside and inside the mind. that makes a plain and solid principle for mental saves.
Charisma saves do also have a niche for banishment and possession effects, and Intelligence saves do currently have a sort of niche for effects that can muddle or tear apart your mind like feeblemind.
Where would you place those in terms of saving throw types?
What I've gathered in this thread is that short rest experiences are highly variable. Some can take many short rests with ease, and some don't really get too many chances to take short rests without risking something happening.
I've been thinking about it, and I think another possible reason WoTC has reduced short rest dependence in mechanics is that they want to streamline their mechanics for design reasons. If everything comes back on a long rest, it's just easier to design features that mesh with each other.
It really isn't that weird. Everyone here is going by their snapshots, if we can even call them that, of their anecdotal experience playing the game. Some of us have been here just for 5e. Others, for decades. And we're all just a disparate few out of tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands.
40,000 people responded to the first survey before the latest preview video was taped, and we all know that isn't even the whole community. We have to stop talking past one another and listen to each other.
As for my own experience with Intelligence, I have two players in a game right now, a druid and a paladin, with proficiency in Nature and Religion, respectively. And I once made a forest gnome barbarian with a 12 in Intelligence and proficiency with Arcana. It takes all kinds of people to move the world.
I'd consider possession a contest of wills, so it's definitely a charisma save. Feeblemind tries to erase intellect, so it's logical to resist it with intelligence. Not sure what t0 make of banishment. It's not like it's trying to trick (wis) the target's mind or subdue it (cha). So probably intelligence, as the target is momentarily pulled into a labyrinthine passage between worlds and has to figure a way back.
Something to keep in mind is that Int + Investigate is used to resist illusions and disguises. If we go the same we that grappling did and make it a regular save... INT will be the anti-illusion save.
WIS is anti-mind manipulation (an extension of Insight skill, as most deal with variations of Charmed or Frightened), INT would be illusion (Investigate), and CHA is anything else (catch all?). This kinda makes sense to me, as Insight is basically the default skill used to resist any of the three Charisma skills, and Investigate is what is used to oppose disguises and forgeries.
There's nothing in Charisma that is used to resist bad luck, extraplanar nonsense, possession, people forcing you to wear an illusion... I can see resisting Calm Emotion (perform invokes emotion) and Zone of Truth (deception), but the rest are just weird.
Again, loading too much onto wisdom, just like it is now. I think it makes sense to distribute mind effects by principle of fear and charm - these are very clear mechanical markers. And it makes sense that charisma, representing strength of character, confidence and courage, would help against fear, effects that try to break and subdue one's will.
Con saving throws are overloaded, too. Dex are pretty clear, but str is barely used. Id' say that there should be a clear divide - str against effects from the outside, while con against effects from the inside. When you're battered by falling rocks or struck by a shockwave, it should be str saving throw. When you're hurt from within by poison, disease, or necrosis and aging effects, that would be con.
Sure. Insight to resist Intimidation and Persuasion always felt odd to me. Like, they're not lies, so using Insight to oppose Intimidation just lets you know they want to hurt you? But its what I've seen people default to for the longest time, and its a thing. Dunno.
I think what you might be forgetting is that Charisma in this game represents your force of personality or will, not just your ability to socially interact with others. A powerful angel being able to shake the earth just by exerting its will is a display of Charisma. A person forcing an evil spirit out of themselves that's trying to possess them through sheer force of will is a display of Charisma. Charisma is, as far as the game goes, much more than just being persuasive, intimidating, or deceptive, and it's much more than "I want to seduce X".
That's why many creatures with innate spellcasting use Charisma as their spellcasting ability, and why extraplanar creatures are often Charisma-based in their magical abilities.
The reason banishing effects like banishment, banishing smite, dispel evil and good, and plane shift use Charisma saves is because the creature is using its force of will to remain in the plane it's currently in. So if one thinks possession fits because it's a battle of wills for the victim to maintain control of their own body, banishing effects also fit for CHA saves because it's a battle of wills for the victim to maintain their presence in reality.