I am just flat out ignoring it, because frankly, "willpower" is not only such a nebulous term that it can mean ANYTHING, but you never roll "willpower" to acomplish anything in the game. And its arguably part of Wisdom as well. Charisma is used for persuading people, or tricking them, or gatheirng information.
And I disagree that the planar effects use Charisma because of "force of will" - the more likey explanation is that the writers leaned on 3e rules, which had Charisma checks to do that. Back in 3e, Charisma was used for any "innate" magic spellcasting. So, if you summoned a demon, they would try to pit their innate magic against your divine or arcane prowress to resist being bound.
its purely something based on tradition than anything related to an actual good classification system.
I am just flat out ignoring it, because frankly, "willpower" is not only such a nebulous term that it can mean ANYTHING, but you never roll "willpower" to acomplish anything in the game. And its arguably part of Wisdom as well. Charisma is used for persuading people, or tricking them, or gatheirng information.
And I disagree that the planar effects use Charisma because of "force of will" - the more likey explanation is that the writers leaned on 3e rules, which had Charisma checks to do that. Back in 3e, Charisma was used for any "innate" magic spellcasting. So, if you summoned a demon, they would try to pit their innate magic against your divine or arcane prowress to resist being bound.
its purely something based on tradition than anything related to an actual good classification system.
If you're ignoring it, what kind of saves are you using for stuff like banishment? Wisdom?
Considering Wisdom seems to just be the successor to the older Will saves, and the 3.5 version of the spell used Will saves, are you sticking with that?
Also if even in older editions creatures used Charisma for their innate spellcasting, doesn't that imply that Charisma is still more than just persuading people, or tricking them, or gathering information from them?
Did you miss the part where I talked about how those spells are Charisma saves purely because its 3e counterparts used Charisma? Im' saying that the save system is nonsensical under the new rules and assumptions.
Every single mental stat is "force of will" and "willpower" when shrugging off certain spells. Or is resisting raw dragon fear not your force of will? And yet, that's a Wisdom save.
Force of will is a descriptor added on to Charisma, because charismatic people tend to possess traits like confidence, drive and ambition, which are generally considered attractive to others.
Its all utter nonsense, and saves are based more on what D&D used as saves back in 3e, which is utter nonsense under the new rules paradigm.
Did you miss the part where I talked about how those spells are Charisma saves purely because its 3e counterparts used Charisma? Im' saying that the save system is nonsensical under the new rules and assumptions.
Every single mental stat is "force of will" and "willpower" when shrugging off certain spells. Or is resisting raw dragon fear not your force of will? And yet, that's a Wisdom save.
Force of will is a descriptor added on to Charisma, because charismatic people tend to possess traits like confidence, drive and ambition, which are generally considered attractive to others.
Its all utter nonsense, and saves are based more on what D&D used as saves back in 3e, which is utter nonsense under the new rules paradigm.
I'm not trying to quarrel with you. I'm asking questions because I'm interested in this idea of the current save system being flawed, since I've also thought that the mental stat saves have too much overlap.
I would not complain if the save system was separate from ability scores and rolled the three mental stats back into one singular Will save or something.
its purely something based on tradition than anything related to an actual good classification system.
Exactly. 5e carries a lot of baggage from 3e. About time that leftover mess got cleaned up. Spells getting clear classification in form of arcane, divine, and primal spell lists, is a good sign.
I'm not trying to quarrel with you. I'm asking questions because I'm interested in this idea of the current save system being flawed, since I've also thought that the mental stat saves have too much overlap.
I would not complain if the save system was separate from ability scores and rolled the three mental stats back into one singular Will save or something.
Sorry, my bad. I shouldn't have done that.
Ahem. As for saving throws... I use what the books do for PC spells, simply because despite it being a pet peeve of mine, its not worth the effort of messing around with player expectations to change it and ultimately I'm not sure if making the change will actually make the game better.
Anyways, I use the One World cosmology (ala DMG), so all the dimensional displacement powers are... weird in the first place already. So they come up far less than usual anyways.
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I am just flat out ignoring it, because frankly, "willpower" is not only such a nebulous term that it can mean ANYTHING, but you never roll "willpower" to acomplish anything in the game. And its arguably part of Wisdom as well. Charisma is used for persuading people, or tricking them, or gatheirng information.
And I disagree that the planar effects use Charisma because of "force of will" - the more likey explanation is that the writers leaned on 3e rules, which had Charisma checks to do that. Back in 3e, Charisma was used for any "innate" magic spellcasting. So, if you summoned a demon, they would try to pit their innate magic against your divine or arcane prowress to resist being bound.
its purely something based on tradition than anything related to an actual good classification system.
If you're ignoring it, what kind of saves are you using for stuff like banishment? Wisdom?
Considering Wisdom seems to just be the successor to the older Will saves, and the 3.5 version of the spell used Will saves, are you sticking with that?
Also if even in older editions creatures used Charisma for their innate spellcasting, doesn't that imply that Charisma is still more than just persuading people, or tricking them, or gathering information from them?
Did you miss the part where I talked about how those spells are Charisma saves purely because its 3e counterparts used Charisma? Im' saying that the save system is nonsensical under the new rules and assumptions.
Every single mental stat is "force of will" and "willpower" when shrugging off certain spells. Or is resisting raw dragon fear not your force of will? And yet, that's a Wisdom save.
Force of will is a descriptor added on to Charisma, because charismatic people tend to possess traits like confidence, drive and ambition, which are generally considered attractive to others.
Its all utter nonsense, and saves are based more on what D&D used as saves back in 3e, which is utter nonsense under the new rules paradigm.
I'm not trying to quarrel with you. I'm asking questions because I'm interested in this idea of the current save system being flawed, since I've also thought that the mental stat saves have too much overlap.
I would not complain if the save system was separate from ability scores and rolled the three mental stats back into one singular Will save or something.
Exactly. 5e carries a lot of baggage from 3e. About time that leftover mess got cleaned up. Spells getting clear classification in form of arcane, divine, and primal spell lists, is a good sign.
Sorry, my bad. I shouldn't have done that.
Ahem. As for saving throws... I use what the books do for PC spells, simply because despite it being a pet peeve of mine, its not worth the effort of messing around with player expectations to change it and ultimately I'm not sure if making the change will actually make the game better.
Anyways, I use the One World cosmology (ala DMG), so all the dimensional displacement powers are... weird in the first place already. So they come up far less than usual anyways.