Been seeing a lot of complaints lately over how the new iteration is nerfing this or that ABUSED ability/spell/feat/skill/feature. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't that the point of a new iteration? To close abuses of the game that make it unfun for a portion of the player base.
I don't disagree that Guidance probably needs a fix of some kind. But the problem is that this fix makes it extremely awkward as a Cantrip, and honestly quite bad, especially since you get so few cantrips unless you really go out of your way to build a character that has access to a lot of cantrips. So there's a fix that needs to happen, but the proposed change goes too far the other direction, turning it into one of those cantrips that only ever gets talked about in a Top 10 Worst Cantrips video.
Personally, I'm still of the opinion that it should just be turned into a leveled spell at this point.
Maybe once per Short rest, or some kind of negative component if used multiple times. Exhaustion could be a component of it with how that is being change but even that may be excessive in actual use.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Been seeing a lot of complaints lately over how the new iteration is nerfing this or that ABUSED ability/spell/feat/skill/feature. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't that the point of a new iteration? To close abuses of the game that make it unfun for a portion of the player base.
I don't disagree that Guidance probably needs a fix of some kind. But the problem is that this fix makes it extremely awkward as a Cantrip, and honestly quite bad, especially since you get so few cantrips unless you really go out of your way to build a character that has access to a lot of cantrips. So there's a fix that needs to happen, but the proposed change goes too far the other direction, turning it into one of those cantrips that only ever gets talked about in a Top 10 Worst Cantrips video.
Personally, I'm still of the opinion that it should just be turned into a leveled spell at this point.
Agreed that Guidance would probably be better served as a level 1 spell; imo any spell or feature that monkeys about with die rolls should never be an unlimited resource anyway.
I think the current version of Guidance is far too strong for what it is. BUT, I do think the current UA nerf takes it too far. I think the limit of one use per person per day is fine, but only if the check actually results in a success. This way you don't waste your one use of Guidance on a natural 1.
I think the current version of Guidance is far too strong for what it is. BUT, I do think the current UA nerf takes it too far. I think the limit of one use per person per day is fine, but only if the check actually results in a success. This way you don't waste your one use of Guidance on a natural 1.
I'm still not keen on Guidance having that one-a-day limitation, but I think this suggestion makes it seem useful to me. I think this change would justify it still being a cantrip.
I think the current version of Guidance is far too strong for what it is. BUT, I do think the current UA nerf takes it too far. I think the limit of one use per person per day is fine, but only if the check actually results in a success. This way you don't waste your one use of Guidance on a natural 1.
I'm still not keen on Guidance having that one-a-day limitation, but I think this suggestion makes it seem useful to me. I think this change would justify it still being a cantrip.
My main issue with the once a day thing is it seems like it would be a pain in the ass to track. We may have 3 sessions where only one day passed, I don't want to remember that kind of thing.
I agree... I'd rather not have to track it at all in the first place, but if that's the direction to take, then I think at least making sure its once-a-day use is only "spent" when it actually works means a player will actually use it regularly, and not just keep it in their back pocket at all times afraid they're going to waste it.
I don't see that being any different from a spell slot, necessarily. Maybe instead of once per person, it could just be once per proficiency level. I think this keeps it in the direction of where One D&D is going, without totally nerfing the cantrip into oblivion.
Guidance clearly needs a change. Currently, it's a cantrip that provides infinite amount of 1d4 rolls throughout the day that is extremely easy to obtain and is almost a must-have for many players. I was even gifted this in my current campaign by my DM some months ago and it has performed splendidly. The change to a reaction was a good one in my opinion; after all, that is how I was using it anyways, as using it in advance can be quite difficult with how encounters can go.
I don't abuse it by any means, and reflecting on it, I find myself using it maybe once, or on rare occasions twice, per long rest. Is 1d4 really all that powerful? In most cases it honestly isn't, but I definitely understand how it can really drive everyone crazy.
I don't mind limiting the uses per day, but for only 1d4 why would I bother taking this cantrip unless it was extra, like in my case? I'd recommend at least 1 per short rest or perhaps 2-3 per long rest instead. That way it's still impactful, but it limits player's means to abuse it. The other option is to instead turn it into a 1st or 2nd level spell. If you want to limit the power of the spell, limit who can take it instead. If players really want to take this spell, you can either make other cantrips more valuable or make it so people will have to multiclass. In other words, your decisions matter.
The same can be said about a lot of other spells, like Counterspell or Faerie Fire. They're fantastic spells, but you don't need them to have a successful campaign or one-shot. Just because they're very powerful or useful in a ton of situations doesn't mean you must have it in every group.
It needed some adjustment but not sure if this was it. Although, to be honest, for my Druid, I usually forgot about the spell or it wasn’t appropriate to cast (we didn’t treat it like a reaction.
Could it be handled similar to War Magic Wizard’s Arcane Deflection?
Arcane Deflection
At 2nd level, you have learned to weave your magic to fortify yourself against harm. When you are hit by an attack or you fail a saving throw, you can use your reaction to gain a +2 bonus to your AC against that attack or a +4 bonus to that saving throw.
When you use this feature, you can’t cast spells other than cantrips until the end of your next turn.
You can cast Guidance no limit, but once you do your are limited to only casting a cantrip until the end of your next turn?
Guidance is 100% an out of combat spell, so I don't see how that would change anything.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Guidance is 100% an out of combat spell, so I don't see how that would change anything.
It’s a reaction spell for ability checks, which can happen in combat, in this UA. I was just throwing out an idea on how other options besides a hard limit might be an option.
Guidance is 100% an out of combat spell, so I don't see how that would change anything.
It’s a reaction spell for ability checks, which can happen in combat, in this UA. I was just throwing out an idea on how other options besides a hard limit might be an option.
The issue with guidance has never been its use in combat, so anything that limits its use in combat isn't going to solve any problems. Your choices are to dramatically limit how many times it can be used, dramatically limit what it can be used on, or dramatically change what it does.
If anything, changing it to a Reaction will probably give it some potential utility in combat, since it's no longer competing with your Action and doesn't conflict with Concentration spells. If someone narrowly misses a Jump or Search check and the caster has a reaction to spare, they can try to salvage it. It's a nice side effect of this change, but it doesn't affect the main problem of the cantrip's out-of-combat utility.
Guidance is 100% an out of combat spell, so I don't see how that would change anything.
It’s a reaction spell for ability checks, which can happen in combat, in this UA. I was just throwing out an idea on how other options besides a hard limit might be an option.
The issue with guidance has never been its use in combat, so anything that limits its use in combat isn't going to solve any problems. Your choices are to dramatically limit how many times it can be used, dramatically limit what it can be used on, or dramatically change what it does.
Pantagruel and Quar1on, I get both of your points. I was seeing if there is a way to allow for some limits, both in and out of combat (of course, my example probably wasn’t the best as it’s combat) without making it too limiting, but also not requiring a spreadsheet to track. In the end, it very well could be better if removed.
But I haven’t tested it as a reaction with waiting for a failed check to trigger. with or without the limit. PB might be better limit so you can actually use it on the PC’s that can actually benefit. “Sorry Rogue, wish I could help, but you got your one for the day. Guess I can keep my next use for the Barbarian on his INT check dump stat. Yay 🙄”
Personally, I think they should go back to the old version of the spell and just change the casting time to 1 minute and the duration to 10 minutes, maybe an hour. This makes it so people can't retroactively yell "GUIDANCE" after the DM calls for an ability check, and makes it much less likely to be abused during social encounters because using magic while talking to people has always seemed really strange to me. I think this better reflects the intention of the cantrip, that a character who has it is able to offer some pre-emptive guidance (geddit?) to the character about to attempt something important. Using Guidance should be part of a larger plan by the players and not a spur of the moment or reactionary thing. Having an extended duration still allows it to be used to affect a roll in combat, provided the Guidance was done before combat began.
Personally, I think they should go back to the old version of the spell and just change the casting time to 1 minute and the duration to 10 minutes, maybe an hour. This makes it so people can't retroactively yell "GUIDANCE" after the DM calls for an ability check, and makes it much less likely to be abused during social encounters because using magic while talking to people has always seemed really strange to me. I think this better reflects the intention of the cantrip, that a character who has it is able to offer some pre-emptive guidance (geddit?) to the character about to attempt something important. Using Guidance should be part of a larger plan by the players and not a spur of the moment or reactionary thing. Having an extended duration still allows it to be used to affect a roll in combat, provided the Guidance was done before combat began.
A 1 minute casting time would definitely do a lot to make it too difficult to spam, but still useful enough to consider taking as one of your known cantrips. I think that puts it on a similar level to Mending... not something you can just pull out in the heat of the moment, but still a useful enough feature to justify the time.
Havent read the entire thread here, but if it hasnt been suggested yet could one fix to it to make Guidance a cantrip that can scale?
I like that Guidance is being changed to where you cant spam it, but once per long rest per creature does seem kind of harsh. What if it scaled to twice per long rest at 5th level, three times per long rest at 11th level, and four times per long rest at 17th level?
Or maybe its reset time reduces, like its once per short rest at 5th level, once per hour at 11th level, and once every 10 minutes at 17th or something like that.
One way or another, I feel like giving Guidance some sort of scaling would make the current restrictions feel more fair.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews!Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
The current 5e Guidance is definitely a mess. For some reason my players never wanted to take it. But based on many live play shows and other DM's anecdotes, it can get so annoying that it frustrates me and it's not even my table. It needs to be fixed but I'm not sure what the answer is. But I do know the answer is definitely not limiting it to once per day per person though.
I really don't want to have to track that. Players shouldn't have to track that. Sometimes one day in game can take 3 or more sessions over a month of play. Sometimes 3 days take one session. It doesn't make any sense from a worldbuilding perspective. Why would a god help your friends out sometimes, maybe enough to make a difference, maybe not, but only once per rotation of the planet? It's not consistent enough to even be worth taking. And it goes against everything a cantrip is supposed to be to limit it.
Maybe it really should just be a level 1 spell. But with things like Silvery Barbs existing, it would have to be improved over a d4.
It is possible that the changes to making it a Reaction, and only if a check fails, could be enough by itself. You wouldn't waste time trying it before a roll like we do now, you wouldn't use it on any successes, and you wouldn't bother on failures that are too low to matter. So it wouldn't feel like it's spammed all the time. And even when you do use it, it won't help all the time. I think I might playtest this way a bit.
If it needs further restrictions after that, maybe make the range Touch.
DMs and players also have to realize how weird it is to have a cleric praying for your success at haggling with a merchant right in front of them. They should react pretty poorly to seeing it. But that's harder to do than clear rules.
Other than those options, I don't know. I just know it went from annoying to unusable.
i think it might be fine if they get rid of the once per day per player restriction, since it wouldnt be spammed, unless players are failing all the time (in which case they need it), which seems to be the primary complaint about its 5e incarnation. If DMs want to say using this in social situations will increase the DC, thats fine, its your table. Also, no more using it on initiative, although, not many were doing this and was easy to ban.
GUIDANCE
0-Level Divination Spell (Divine, Primal)
Casting Time: Reaction, which you take in response to you or an ally within 30 feet of you failing an Ability Check
Range: 30 feet
Component: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
You channel magical insight to the creature who failed the Ability Check. That creature can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to the check, potentially turning it into a success.
I don't disagree that Guidance probably needs a fix of some kind. But the problem is that this fix makes it extremely awkward as a Cantrip, and honestly quite bad, especially since you get so few cantrips unless you really go out of your way to build a character that has access to a lot of cantrips. So there's a fix that needs to happen, but the proposed change goes too far the other direction, turning it into one of those cantrips that only ever gets talked about in a Top 10 Worst Cantrips video.
Personally, I'm still of the opinion that it should just be turned into a leveled spell at this point.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
Maybe once per Short rest, or some kind of negative component if used multiple times. Exhaustion could be a component of it with how that is being change but even that may be excessive in actual use.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Agreed that Guidance would probably be better served as a level 1 spell; imo any spell or feature that monkeys about with die rolls should never be an unlimited resource anyway.
I think the current version of Guidance is far too strong for what it is. BUT, I do think the current UA nerf takes it too far. I think the limit of one use per person per day is fine, but only if the check actually results in a success. This way you don't waste your one use of Guidance on a natural 1.
I'm still not keen on Guidance having that one-a-day limitation, but I think this suggestion makes it seem useful to me. I think this change would justify it still being a cantrip.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
My main issue with the once a day thing is it seems like it would be a pain in the ass to track. We may have 3 sessions where only one day passed, I don't want to remember that kind of thing.
I agree... I'd rather not have to track it at all in the first place, but if that's the direction to take, then I think at least making sure its once-a-day use is only "spent" when it actually works means a player will actually use it regularly, and not just keep it in their back pocket at all times afraid they're going to waste it.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
I don't see that being any different from a spell slot, necessarily. Maybe instead of once per person, it could just be once per proficiency level. I think this keeps it in the direction of where One D&D is going, without totally nerfing the cantrip into oblivion.
Guidance clearly needs a change. Currently, it's a cantrip that provides infinite amount of 1d4 rolls throughout the day that is extremely easy to obtain and is almost a must-have for many players. I was even gifted this in my current campaign by my DM some months ago and it has performed splendidly. The change to a reaction was a good one in my opinion; after all, that is how I was using it anyways, as using it in advance can be quite difficult with how encounters can go.
I don't abuse it by any means, and reflecting on it, I find myself using it maybe once, or on rare occasions twice, per long rest. Is 1d4 really all that powerful? In most cases it honestly isn't, but I definitely understand how it can really drive everyone crazy.
I don't mind limiting the uses per day, but for only 1d4 why would I bother taking this cantrip unless it was extra, like in my case? I'd recommend at least 1 per short rest or perhaps 2-3 per long rest instead. That way it's still impactful, but it limits player's means to abuse it. The other option is to instead turn it into a 1st or 2nd level spell. If you want to limit the power of the spell, limit who can take it instead. If players really want to take this spell, you can either make other cantrips more valuable or make it so people will have to multiclass. In other words, your decisions matter.
The same can be said about a lot of other spells, like Counterspell or Faerie Fire. They're fantastic spells, but you don't need them to have a successful campaign or one-shot. Just because they're very powerful or useful in a ton of situations doesn't mean you must have it in every group.
It needed some adjustment but not sure if this was it. Although, to be honest, for my Druid, I usually forgot about the spell or it wasn’t appropriate to cast (we didn’t treat it like a reaction.
Could it be handled similar to War Magic Wizard’s Arcane Deflection?
You can cast Guidance no limit, but once you do your are limited to only casting a cantrip until the end of your next turn?
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Guidance is 100% an out of combat spell, so I don't see how that would change anything.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
It’s a reaction spell for ability checks, which can happen in combat, in this UA. I was just throwing out an idea on how other options besides a hard limit might be an option.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
The issue with guidance has never been its use in combat, so anything that limits its use in combat isn't going to solve any problems. Your choices are to dramatically limit how many times it can be used, dramatically limit what it can be used on, or dramatically change what it does.
If anything, changing it to a Reaction will probably give it some potential utility in combat, since it's no longer competing with your Action and doesn't conflict with Concentration spells. If someone narrowly misses a Jump or Search check and the caster has a reaction to spare, they can try to salvage it. It's a nice side effect of this change, but it doesn't affect the main problem of the cantrip's out-of-combat utility.
Pantagruel and Quar1on, I get both of your points. I was seeing if there is a way to allow for some limits, both in and out of combat (of course, my example probably wasn’t the best as it’s combat) without making it too limiting, but also not requiring a spreadsheet to track. In the end, it very well could be better if removed.
But I haven’t tested it as a reaction with waiting for a failed check to trigger. with or without the limit. PB might be better limit so you can actually use it on the PC’s that can actually benefit. “Sorry Rogue, wish I could help, but you got your one for the day. Guess I can keep my next use for the Barbarian on his INT check dump stat. Yay 🙄”
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Personally, I think they should go back to the old version of the spell and just change the casting time to 1 minute and the duration to 10 minutes, maybe an hour. This makes it so people can't retroactively yell "GUIDANCE" after the DM calls for an ability check, and makes it much less likely to be abused during social encounters because using magic while talking to people has always seemed really strange to me. I think this better reflects the intention of the cantrip, that a character who has it is able to offer some pre-emptive guidance (geddit?) to the character about to attempt something important. Using Guidance should be part of a larger plan by the players and not a spur of the moment or reactionary thing. Having an extended duration still allows it to be used to affect a roll in combat, provided the Guidance was done before combat began.
A 1 minute casting time would definitely do a lot to make it too difficult to spam, but still useful enough to consider taking as one of your known cantrips. I think that puts it on a similar level to Mending... not something you can just pull out in the heat of the moment, but still a useful enough feature to justify the time.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
Havent read the entire thread here, but if it hasnt been suggested yet could one fix to it to make Guidance a cantrip that can scale?
I like that Guidance is being changed to where you cant spam it, but once per long rest per creature does seem kind of harsh. What if it scaled to twice per long rest at 5th level, three times per long rest at 11th level, and four times per long rest at 17th level?
Or maybe its reset time reduces, like its once per short rest at 5th level, once per hour at 11th level, and once every 10 minutes at 17th or something like that.
One way or another, I feel like giving Guidance some sort of scaling would make the current restrictions feel more fair.
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
The current 5e Guidance is definitely a mess. For some reason my players never wanted to take it. But based on many live play shows and other DM's anecdotes, it can get so annoying that it frustrates me and it's not even my table. It needs to be fixed but I'm not sure what the answer is. But I do know the answer is definitely not limiting it to once per day per person though.
I really don't want to have to track that. Players shouldn't have to track that. Sometimes one day in game can take 3 or more sessions over a month of play. Sometimes 3 days take one session. It doesn't make any sense from a worldbuilding perspective. Why would a god help your friends out sometimes, maybe enough to make a difference, maybe not, but only once per rotation of the planet? It's not consistent enough to even be worth taking. And it goes against everything a cantrip is supposed to be to limit it.
Maybe it really should just be a level 1 spell. But with things like Silvery Barbs existing, it would have to be improved over a d4.
It is possible that the changes to making it a Reaction, and only if a check fails, could be enough by itself. You wouldn't waste time trying it before a roll like we do now, you wouldn't use it on any successes, and you wouldn't bother on failures that are too low to matter. So it wouldn't feel like it's spammed all the time. And even when you do use it, it won't help all the time. I think I might playtest this way a bit.
If it needs further restrictions after that, maybe make the range Touch.
DMs and players also have to realize how weird it is to have a cleric praying for your success at haggling with a merchant right in front of them. They should react pretty poorly to seeing it. But that's harder to do than clear rules.
Other than those options, I don't know. I just know it went from annoying to unusable.
i think it might be fine if they get rid of the once per day per player restriction, since it wouldnt be spammed, unless players are failing all the time (in which case they need it), which seems to be the primary complaint about its 5e incarnation. If DMs want to say using this in social situations will increase the DC, thats fine, its your table. Also, no more using it on initiative, although, not many were doing this and was easy to ban.
GUIDANCE
0-Level Divination Spell (Divine, Primal)
Casting Time: Reaction, which you take in response to you or an ally within 30 feet of you failing an Ability Check
Range: 30 feet
Component: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
You channel magical insight to the creature who failed the Ability Check. That creature can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to the check, potentially turning it into a success.