So I am starting to build a Bard around levels 1-9 right now. Being forced to take lower level spells and their current spell list is surprisingly versatile. I made it a Halfling (my favorite race) with the Magic Initiate Feat to lean into the Lore portion I will be getting later. Also I chose the skills Investigation, Deception from background. From class I took Performance, persuasion and Sleight of hand. Using standard Array with +1 in Cha and +2 Dex stat line was 8 Strength, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 13 Int, 10 Wisdom, 16 Charisma.
The spells I took for Magic initiate were from the Arcane list I chose Light, Mage Hand and Unseen Servant. For the cantrips I took at first level and my first 2 spells I chose Minor illusion and Vicious mockery for my spell picks it had to be Sleep and Comprehend Languages.
At 3rd level My first level spells added were Feather Fall and Charm Person, My second level spells were levitate and Shatter. 4th Level I took the Keen Mind feat and bumped up my int to 14 and gained expertise in History to really bring that lore flavor. The new second level spell I picked was hard and honestly became my long rest swap out. Detect thoughts, invisibility, Knock, Rope Trick and See Invisibility all fought for this spot pretty hard, and sometimes overcame my other 2nd level pick but my go to were Invisibility and Detect thoughts. For the new cantrip, Message and sleep was replaced with detect magic 5th level Fly and Hypnotic Pattern, Levitate was almost permanently swapped out for invisibility. 6th Again the flex spot for 3rd level spells, Tongues, Sending, Major Image. 7th Polymorph, and it isn't close unfortunately. 8th ASI Feat Cha, Flex spot, Arcane Eye if I can get the expensive materials, Stone Shape, Control Water, and locate creature. Finally, 9nth this one gave me another 4th level flex spot which added Hallucinatory terrain and Fabricate and 5th level became HARD flex with Animate objects, Seeming being one of my favorite spells, Legend Lore being SO THEMATIC to the LORE aspect of my character, Passwall.
Overall, there was still a lot of utility left in the Bards spell list. However, some of the songs of restoration like mass healing word and Freedom of movement were very rare to use. I really would have loved to trade Mass Healing word for Dispel magic. I think the issue with 4th level spells right now is Polymorph just owns that entire list until much higher levels, and even then it is hard not to take. I WANT to use confusion, but it is just almost never better than Hypnotic pattern or Polymorph, which hit far above their weight class.
Having to prepare spells at a particular level is also not as bad as I thought, it forces me to create flex areas in all levels.
Edit: the real tests will come at higher levels, where I fear the 6th, 7th, 8th and 9nth level spells combined with Magic Initiate will eliminate those flexible spots.
I feel like the newer Bard spell list is definitely more "bardy", but all the spells I was used to using, or had focused on for my build, were removed. (We started new characters to test the new Race and Background rules at level one, then, when the Expert Classes bit came out, we made the new characters fit the new rules.) Losing Cure Wounds, Heroism, Faerie Fire and Heat Metal from my list was painful. I'm going to miss Counterspell in a couple levels too.
Before, it felt like you could build very, very different Bards to fill roles by spell selection. Whether you were going to be a healer, buffer, trickster, utility caster or damage dealer were all available. You're now tied into having more utility, but I really didn't want to play a charm/illusion guy and that's very much where we are seated now. It's not bad, but it did totally wreck the character build I had in mind.
I do very much like being a Prepared Spell class though. And preparing by level means that you've got interesting choices for every slot. (This is actually how we used to run our spellcasters as a house rule back in 3.0 and 3.5.)
I feel like the newer Bard spell list is definitely more "bardy", but all the spells I was used to using, or had focused on for my build, were removed. (We started new characters to test the new Race and Background rules at level one, then, when the Expert Classes bit came out, we made the new characters fit the new rules.) Losing Cure Wounds, Heroism, Faerie Fire and Heat Metal from my list was painful. I'm going to miss Counterspell in a couple levels too.
Before, it felt like you could build very, very different Bards to fill roles by spell selection. Whether you were going to be a healer, buffer, trickster, utility caster or damage dealer were all available. You're now tied into having more utility, but I really didn't want to play a charm/illusion guy and that's very much where we are seated now. It's not bad, but it did totally wreck the character build I had in mind.
I do very much like being a Prepared Spell class though. And preparing by level means that you've got interesting choices for every slot. (This is actually how we used to run our spellcasters as a house rule back in 3.0 and 3.5.)
No lie, both Heroism and Faerie fire were spells i had wanted which made the magic initiate feat a REALLY hard choice. If Primal I get Faerie fire, but the cantrips are Meh, maybe guidance and produce flame.... but for the most part nothing stuck out to me for the concept I had. Heroism I could get by picking divine and that would give me Light and guidance, which felt like a mini bardic inspiration, but still wanted something different in terms of cantrips.
I am curious if anyone is picking different spells. That may be kind of the issue is the spells I am looking at are basically the same everyone else is looking at than bards all kind of look the same.
Do you ever swap your cantrips? So far I have been too lazy to do so.
For spell comparison, at 3rd level I prepared: colors spray, disguise self, jump, and silent image (1st), and hold person and suggestion (2nd).
I find the preparation rules fun in that you have so many choices, but at the same time cumbersome for the same reason. There are too many choices, especially for new players. The recommended prep lists will help, but there still is a huge increase in options as soon as you transition to the full list. And this is just using half the arcane list. It will get far worse for wizards or bards with multiple magical secrets.
Do you ever swap your cantrips? So far I have been too lazy to do so.
For spell comparison, at 3rd level I prepared: colors spray, disguise self, jump, and silent image (1st), and hold person and suggestion (2nd).
I find the preparation rules fun in that you have so many choices, but at the same time cumbersome for the same reason. There are too many choices, especially for new players. The recommended prep lists will help, but there still is a huge increase in options as soon as you transition to the full list. And this is just using half the arcane list. It will get far worse for wizards or bards with multiple magical secrets.
Rarely ever swap cantrips personally. Once I have minor illusion, Light and Mage hand I am typically good on cantrips in general. Message is just icing on the cake at that point, nothing else I really find as useful, maybe mending in a rare case to swap out for something to fix a damaged item, but for the most part I didn't feel the need or want to get different cantrips.
I posted my Bard in another thread, but to keep the spell conversation here, this is a copy of that part of it. I'm only playing to level 5. These are the ones I expect to rotate through the most. But it's an odd build, with low Charisma, so I'm avoiding most of the spells that are dependant on it.
1 -Healing Word, Hex, Identify, Jump, Longstrider, Sleep
So I am starting to build a Bard around levels 1-9 right now. Being forced to take lower level spells and their current spell list is surprisingly versatile. I made it a Halfling (my favorite race) with the Magic Initiate Feat to lean into the Lore portion I will be getting later. Also I chose the skills Investigation, Deception from background. From class I took Performance, persuasion and Sleight of hand. Using standard Array with +1 in Cha and +2 Dex stat line was 8 Strength, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 13 Int, 10 Wisdom, 16 Charisma.
The spells I took for Magic initiate were from the Arcane list I chose Light, Mage Hand and Unseen Servant. For the cantrips I took at first level and my first 2 spells I chose Minor illusion and Vicious mockery for my spell picks it had to be Sleep and Comprehend Languages.
At 3rd level
My first level spells added were Feather Fall and Charm Person, My second level spells were levitate and Shatter.
4th Level I took the Keen Mind feat and bumped up my int to 14 and gained expertise in History to really bring that lore flavor. The new second level spell I picked was hard and honestly became my long rest swap out. Detect thoughts, invisibility, Knock, Rope Trick and See Invisibility all fought for this spot pretty hard, and sometimes overcame my other 2nd level pick but my go to were Invisibility and Detect thoughts. For the new cantrip, Message and sleep was replaced with detect magic
5th level Fly and Hypnotic Pattern, Levitate was almost permanently swapped out for invisibility.
6th Again the flex spot for 3rd level spells, Tongues, Sending, Major Image.
7th Polymorph, and it isn't close unfortunately.
8th ASI Feat Cha, Flex spot, Arcane Eye if I can get the expensive materials, Stone Shape, Control Water, and locate creature.
Finally, 9nth this one gave me another 4th level flex spot which added Hallucinatory terrain and Fabricate and 5th level became HARD flex with Animate objects, Seeming being one of my favorite spells, Legend Lore being SO THEMATIC to the LORE aspect of my character, Passwall.
Overall, there was still a lot of utility left in the Bards spell list. However, some of the songs of restoration like mass healing word and Freedom of movement were very rare to use. I really would have loved to trade Mass Healing word for Dispel magic. I think the issue with 4th level spells right now is Polymorph just owns that entire list until much higher levels, and even then it is hard not to take. I WANT to use confusion, but it is just almost never better than Hypnotic pattern or Polymorph, which hit far above their weight class.
Having to prepare spells at a particular level is also not as bad as I thought, it forces me to create flex areas in all levels.
Edit: the real tests will come at higher levels, where I fear the 6th, 7th, 8th and 9nth level spells combined with Magic Initiate will eliminate those flexible spots.
I feel like the newer Bard spell list is definitely more "bardy", but all the spells I was used to using, or had focused on for my build, were removed. (We started new characters to test the new Race and Background rules at level one, then, when the Expert Classes bit came out, we made the new characters fit the new rules.) Losing Cure Wounds, Heroism, Faerie Fire and Heat Metal from my list was painful. I'm going to miss Counterspell in a couple levels too.
Before, it felt like you could build very, very different Bards to fill roles by spell selection. Whether you were going to be a healer, buffer, trickster, utility caster or damage dealer were all available. You're now tied into having more utility, but I really didn't want to play a charm/illusion guy and that's very much where we are seated now. It's not bad, but it did totally wreck the character build I had in mind.
I do very much like being a Prepared Spell class though. And preparing by level means that you've got interesting choices for every slot. (This is actually how we used to run our spellcasters as a house rule back in 3.0 and 3.5.)
No lie, both Heroism and Faerie fire were spells i had wanted which made the magic initiate feat a REALLY hard choice. If Primal I get Faerie fire, but the cantrips are Meh, maybe guidance and produce flame.... but for the most part nothing stuck out to me for the concept I had. Heroism I could get by picking divine and that would give me Light and guidance, which felt like a mini bardic inspiration, but still wanted something different in terms of cantrips.
I am curious if anyone is picking different spells. That may be kind of the issue is the spells I am looking at are basically the same everyone else is looking at than bards all kind of look the same.
This is great feedback. I'm working on my bard right now. I'll let you know what I come up with
Do you ever swap your cantrips? So far I have been too lazy to do so.
For spell comparison, at 3rd level I prepared: colors spray, disguise self, jump, and silent image (1st), and hold person and suggestion (2nd).
I find the preparation rules fun in that you have so many choices, but at the same time cumbersome for the same reason. There are too many choices, especially for new players. The recommended prep lists will help, but there still is a huge increase in options as soon as you transition to the full list. And this is just using half the arcane list. It will get far worse for wizards or bards with multiple magical secrets.
Rarely ever swap cantrips personally. Once I have minor illusion, Light and Mage hand I am typically good on cantrips in general. Message is just icing on the cake at that point, nothing else I really find as useful, maybe mending in a rare case to swap out for something to fix a damaged item, but for the most part I didn't feel the need or want to get different cantrips.
I posted my Bard in another thread, but to keep the spell conversation here, this is a copy of that part of it. I'm only playing to level 5. These are the ones I expect to rotate through the most. But it's an odd build, with low Charisma, so I'm avoiding most of the spells that are dependant on it.
1 -Healing Word, Hex, Identify, Jump, Longstrider, Sleep
2 - Blur, Enlarge/Reduce, Invisibility, Knock, Lesser Restoration, Levitate, Rope Trick, Spider Climb
3 - Fly, Gaseous Form, Haste, Mass Healing Word, Water Breathing