Ok so I have been trying to work out how two-weapon fighting/duel wielding will work in One D&D, compared to how it works now in 5e. First off let me say that I love playing a duel wielding character whether it is a elf with two swords or a dwarf with two warhammers love it!. But along with a lot of other people I have always felt that it was a little weak and underwhelming. So I was excited to see what changes were being purposed…. I have to say that I am very disappointed. So I thought it would be best to post and make sure I understand things correctly.
My current understating in 5e is that if you choose to make a character focused on two weapon fighting you need to take the Dual wielder feat and the Fighting Style: Two weapon fighting. This combination gives you the ability to add you modifier to the offhanded attack, it also lets you use any one handed weapons not just light ones (this is how I get my dual warhammer dwarf…yay!). You also get the +1 bonus to AC when you have a weapon in each hand.
From what I can tell from the UA/ One D&D test material the DUAL WIELDER feat now gives you a increase by +1 to DEX or STR but you can only treat one weapon as if it had the light property ( no more double warhmmers for me…sad day). The Fighting Style: Two weapon fighting seems to be the same from what I can tell. And then we have LIGHT [WEAPON PROPERTY] does this completely replace bonus action two weapon fighting? Or the Light weapon property or both? Or neither?
My understating under these new rules is that if you take the DUAL WIELDER feat and choose Two Weapon Fighting as a fighting style then you gain the following
+1 to DEX or STR,
You get to use one weapon that is not light,
You still have your bonus action to use (the offhand attack is basically free, as long as you have a light weapon in the off hand.
My conclusion is that this is a nerf to Two weapon fighting not a buff. I would much rather be able to run my dual warhammer dwarf then gain a +1 to DEX or STR, and get to use my bonus action every round.
In my mind the solution to buffing dual wielding was simple. Make the offhand attack part of the attack action and free up the bonus action, and leave everything else as it was. Am I missing something here, or do I have something confused. I have added below excerpts from the PHB and UA/One D&D test material for convenience.
Thanks for the Help!
From the PHB:
Two Weapon fighting (bonus action).
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it.
Dual Wielder Feat:
You master fighting with two weapons, gaining the following benefits:
You gain a +1 bonus to AC while you are wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand.
You can use two-weapon fighting even when the one-handed melee weapons you are wielding aren't light.
You can draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
Fighting style: Two Weapon Fighting.
When you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the second attack.
Weapon properties
Light. A light weapon is small and easy to handle, making it ideal for use when fighting with two weapons.
From UA/One D&D:
DUAL WIELDER feat:
4th-Level Feat Prerequisite: Proficiency with Any Martial Weapon Repeatable: No.
You master fighting with two weapons, gaining the following benefits:
Ability Score Increase.
Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
Enhanced Dual Wielding.
When you are holding a Weapon with the Light property in one hand, you can treat a non-Light Weapon in your other hand as if it had the Light property, provided that Weapon lacks the Two-Handed property.
Quick Draw.
You can draw or stow two Weapons that lack the Two-Handed property when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
FIGHTING STYLE:
TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING 1st-Level Feat Prerequisite: Warrior Group Repeatable: No
When you make the extra attack of the Light weapon property, you can add your Ability Modifier to the damage of the extra attack.
LIGHT [WEAPON PROPERTY]
When you take the Attack Action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon in one hand, you can make one extra attack as part of the same Action. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon in the other hand, and you don’t add your Ability Modifier to the extra attack’s damage. You can make this extra attack only once on each of your turns. For example, if you take the Attack Action on your turn and have a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other—each of which has the Light property—you can make one attack with each weapon, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity Modifier to the damage roll of the second weapon.
Anyone can use two light weapons and make an extra attack with one when taking the Attack action. No bonus action needed. (Basically one free attack with the off hand no matter how many attacks you have). The off hand does not add your STR or DEX to damage.
Two Weapon fighting style lets you add the damage to the off hand.
Dual Wielder gives you +1 to STR or DEX, and lets you use one weapon without the light property.
Since shortswords are now Simple weapons, more classes can use two shortsword. With Dual Wielder you could use a shortsword and a longsword for example. Or a warhammer and a handaxe. Essentially you are increasing one damage dice from a d6 to a d8. It's pretty underwhelming, and I put that in my survey. (Oh, and the Quick Draw, which matters at some tables. It's good to clarify either way. )
I imagine they removed the +1 to AC because you could use the +1 DEX to boost your stats enough to get +1 AC in some circumstances and they didn't want to make it a double bonus. But that won't apply to every character. Whether the bonus stat is worth it will be subjective.
(Note that they don't actually call it an off hand. I just used that term for simplicity sake here.)
Now that it doesn't take a bonus action, dual wielding is actually worth considering and not a complete sub-optimal trash. However, Dual Wielder feat sucks. Miserably.
Now, no creature in the entire universe can wield two longswords. It's simply not possible. This fantasy is invalid. Even though you can do it in reality. Magical transmutation is legit, two longswords are not.
The feat itself lets you wield one non-light weapon, an upgrade from d6 to d8 for two of the three attacks. Which is +0,66 points of damage per round. Now that's worth a whole feat! Meanwhile, Great Weapon Master: "Eat my whole proficiency bonus!"
But not only that, it also allows you to draw or stow two weapons at once. I tried this at home, and I, in fact, can draw two weapons at once if I use both of my hands simultaneously, which every human with functioning hands and no neurological disorders is perfectly capable of. But not in the power fantasy world of DnD, apparently. Meanwhile, Great Weapon Chad: "So if I win, I get to slash again for free? For being great, I get to be even greater. I understand now why this feat is called Great Weapon Master".
And that's it, that's all this feat does. Oh, it gives you +1 to Str/Dex - like any other feat.
Some more thoughts on this just because I’m still at an absolute loss as to what they were hoping to accomplish here.
Historically speaking to have been even remotely effective in combat dual wielding in 5e you had to take the Dual Wielder Feat and the Fighting Style:Two weapon fighting. Without those two things dual wielding was pretty useless, not that it was great with them, it is still for sure subpar. With this combination you could grab two weapons that do 1d8 damage at 4 level. At 5 level you get an extra attack, and another at 11 level (I’m working off a just fighter build for simplicity). So from level 1-3 you’re doing 2d6 damage per round, assuming you are using your bonus action, for the “offhand strike”, 4 level you can take the Dual Wielder Feat and switch to weapons that do 1d8, so for level 4 you are doing 2d8 if you are using your BA for the offhand strike. Level 5-10 you’re doing 3d8 damage, again using your bonus action. Level 11-19 you’re doing 4d8 damage, again using your bonus action. If you have taken one of the simpler Martial Archetypes like Champion you don’t get anything else to use your bonus action on anyway just second wind, which, at least in theory, you should only be using rarely if you get in a bad spot. You get significantly more bonus actions if you take the Battle Master Martial Archetype, depending on what maneuvers you choose. But it doesn’t seem like a lot of these would synergize with Two Weapon Fighting anyway. Base on my own experiences I have found that the times I really wish I had a bonus action to use is when I have multiclassed a Two Weapon Fighter with a spellcaster.
Same scenario as above with a Two Weapon Fighter under the new test rules, from level 1-3 you get 2d6 and have your bonus action available. At level 4 you can take the new version of the Dual Wielder Feat upgrading one of your d6 to a d8 so for 4 level you get 1d6 + 1d8 and still have your bonus action. At level 5 you get an extra attack so that puts you at 2d8+1d6 and a bonus action. At level 11 you gain another attack puts you at 3d8+1d6 and a bonus action.
I don’t claim to have a good grasp on dice percentages so hopefully someone who does will weigh in on the difference between these two mathematically. From just looking at it doesn’t look like there is that much a difference in damage output maybe very slightly more under 5e. It seems like from people I have talked with in the community and my own experiences that two weapon fighting is under powder in 5e. But based on everything I’m seeing it is actually worse in the play-test rules for One DnD.
The main issue that I have is still that RAW you can no longer dual wield Warhammers or battleaxes which from a thematic stand point is a huge problem. No more dwarven fighters running around smashing a goblin head’s from both sides with duel warhammers? No more dwarven warriors decapitating dragons with a battleaxe in each hand. So why such a huge thematic nerf for what is little to no gain for people who like playing dual wielders?
Yeah I have no idea. That was my one complaint about the whole dual wielding progression in the survey. In fact, in my playtesting, using two light weapons was so good it was hard not to want to take it on every character. Just using the light weapon rule alone. But once the ranger got the Dual Wielder feat, it felt like a pitiful boost compared to the other characters.
I am actually hoping for more weapon properties. More properties can make martial characters more interesting by default and make their weapon choices more interesting.
I'm somewhat ambivalent about weapon properties myself.
On the one hand, I like what we have far better than a lot of previous versions and I don't want to mess that up. I don't think weapons are really that different from each other, specifically at the level of abstraction that DnD uses, so I don't need new properties for that to work for me. And many ideas I've seen thrown around usually add a lot of fiddly rules for very little practical effect.
But on the other, I recognize there is a big desire for this, and I'm all for making more people happy. I do think that Strength weapons need a buff because Dexterity fighting has too many advantages. And I can see some interesting options coming out of it, if done well.
That's the biggest thing for me, personally. They have to balance out well and be easy to play. There shouldn't be any clear winners, just different styles of play. Someone who wants to use hammers over swords should be able to without being penalized too much. And everyone should be able to memorize what theirs do in a few minutes.
Since they've already made a big buff to Light weapons, which seems to work rather well in my playtests at least, I'm looking forward to seeing what else they might come up with. I could see Heavy weapons having a sort of mini-GWM built in. Where you could sacrifice your proficiency bonus on your attack to to add it to your damage roll, for example.
I'm somewhat ambivalent about weapon properties myself.
On the one hand, I like what we have far better than a lot of previous versions and I don't want to mess that up. I don't think weapons are really that different from each other, specifically at the level of abstraction that DnD uses, so I don't need new properties for that to work for me. And many ideas I've seen thrown around usually add a lot of fiddly rules for very little practical effect.
But on the other, I recognize there is a big desire for this, and I'm all for making more people happy. I do think that Strength weapons need a buff because Dexterity fighting has too many advantages. And I can see some interesting options coming out of it, if done well.
That's the biggest thing for me, personally. They have to balance out well and be easy to play. There shouldn't be any clear winners, just different styles of play. Someone who wants to use hammers over swords should be able to without being penalized too much. And everyone should be able to memorize what theirs do in a few minutes.
Since they've already made a big buff to Light weapons, which seems to work rather well in my playtests at least, I'm looking forward to seeing what else they might come up with. I could see Heavy weapons having a sort of mini-GWM built in. Where you could sacrifice your proficiency bonus on your attack to to add it to your damage roll, for example.
Completely agree. And for somethings I think we are already fine. GWM is fine for great weapons, the heavy and reach weapons have pole-arm master. My biggest issue right now is versatile weapons. They really struggle for their niche. There is no fighting style that they enjoy, they can benefit from dueling or great weapon fighting, but if you are going to wield a weapon 1 handed any 1d8 weapon that doesn't require 2 hands will do. Similarly if you are going to use great weapon fighting you are just better off with a real 2 handed weapon. Versatile weapons on the whole are just in a weird limbo spot.
Yeah I agree, Versatile weapons are kind of odd. They are what they say they are... versatile. But really in practice only to a small degree. Because people do tend to build their fighting styles and feats around one path. Even non-martial classes usually just stick to one type of fighting most of the time. The option to switch mid battle is there, and it's moderately useful, but most people do ignore it.
If I had to guess the design intent, I think they are really just there to simplify the weapon list. Most of them could have had separate entries, like a Battleaxe, and a Two Handed Battleaxe (And the Heavy Greataxe for the big people). With only one way to use each of them. And that would suit most people fine. They would but the one that fit their fighting style. But this way makes for a list that fits on one page.
It also helps in giving out magic weapons, especially for the more rare weapon types. A magic battleaxe could be used by anyone in any fighting style. If you found a two-handed one, but you used a shield, it would be a waste. And since longswords are the most common magic weapons, it does make them usable by more characters.
Those aren't very impressive reasons, they are just all I can think of for the property to exist at the moment. I'm not sure how they could make them more exciting. But it's worth considering.
It is definitely a buff. Losing 1 average damage in exchange for an entire bonus action is huge. Fighters now get more attacks with action surge, monks can now get 5 attacks per turn, barbarians can rage and make 2 attacks on the same turn, rangers can cast hunters mark and make 2 attacks on the same turn, paladins can cast a smite spell and make 2 attacks, rogues can make 2 attacks and still cunning action, etc.
This is a buff to every single martial class and makes 2 weapon fighting actually viable.
Moving the attack into the attack action was a big step forward.
What should happen is the Dual Wielder Feat should add +Stat to dmg of off hand attack.
The style should allow you to use non light weapons in your off hand.
This makes the feat useful and keeps the style in the same realm as other fighting styles. Progression wise it prevents TWF from dominating pre level 4.
They need to find some other way to improve scaling in tier 3/4. I personally prefer the +1 AC on the feat I don’t think it hurt anyone. Or something like add prof bonus on AoO when wielding two weapons.
Oh for sure, the Light weapon property is a huge buff to every martial. Combined with the Unarmed Strike rules, Monks just got way better. Even if they don't change anything else for the class, which I imagine they will.
A level 1 Monk can now attack with two shortswords, at 1d6+DEX each, and then an Unarmed Strike that can grapple, shove, or do 1d4+DEX more damage. If they take the Tavern Brawler feat, they can shove AND do the damage, rerolling 1s. The rerolls might make Tavern Brawler the most popular Monk feat entirely, since it will apply throughout their career. The Grappler feat at level 4 makes them truly impressive.
By removing the extra attack from the Bonus Attack, they have freed up every martial to do the things they need to do. That's a massive improvement.
The Dual Wielder feat is just a little disappointing compared to any other martial feat at that level. Maybe they'll adjust it. I hope they give it just a small extra bonus. But either way, at least everyone got a boost across the board from level 1.
Oh for sure, the Light weapon property is a huge buff to every martial. Combined with the Unarmed Strike rules, Monks just got way better. Even if they don't change anything else for the class, which I imagine they will.
A level 1 Monk can now attack with two shortswords, at 1d6+DEX each, and then an Unarmed Strike that can grapple, shove, or do 1d4+DEX more damage. If they take the Tavern Brawler feat, they can shove AND do the damage, rerolling 1s. The rerolls might make Tavern Brawler the most popular Monk feat entirely, since it will apply throughout their career. The Grappler feat at level 4 makes them truly impressive.
By removing the extra attack from the Bonus Attack, they have freed up every martial to do the things they need to do. That's a massive improvement.
The Dual Wielder feat is just a little disappointing compared to any other martial feat at that level. Maybe they'll adjust it. I hope they give it just a small extra bonus. But either way, at least everyone got a boost across the board from level 1.
If the monk wants to duel wield then the two weapon fighting, fighting style feat is also a viable choice in addition to tavern brawler thanks to monk being a member of the warrior group so it has access at level 1 to it.
Oh for sure, the Light weapon property is a huge buff to every martial. Combined with the Unarmed Strike rules, Monks just got way better. Even if they don't change anything else for the class, which I imagine they will.
A level 1 Monk can now attack with two shortswords, at 1d6+DEX each, and then an Unarmed Strike that can grapple, shove, or do 1d4+DEX more damage. If they take the Tavern Brawler feat, they can shove AND do the damage, rerolling 1s. The rerolls might make Tavern Brawler the most popular Monk feat entirely, since it will apply throughout their career. The Grappler feat at level 4 makes them truly impressive.
By removing the extra attack from the Bonus Attack, they have freed up every martial to do the things they need to do. That's a massive improvement.
The Dual Wielder feat is just a little disappointing compared to any other martial feat at that level. Maybe they'll adjust it. I hope they give it just a small extra bonus. But either way, at least everyone got a boost across the board from level 1.
If the monk wants to duel wield then the two weapon fighting, fighting style feat is also a viable choice in addition to tavern brawler thanks to monk being a member of the warrior group so it has access at level 1 to it.
The other thing to catch here is that rogues, bards etc can’t take the TWF feat but can take dual wielding this allows them go longsword/battle axe/rapier and shortsword/dagger getting the extra boost to damage of the non light weapon + stat bonus n that attack and the no stat bus attack with the light weapon ( or reverse to equalize damage between weapons somewhat) dual wielding isn’t really aimed at martials but at everyone else while TWF is for martials.
The other thing to catch here is that rogues, bards etc can’t take the TWF feat but can take dual wielding this allows them go longsword/battle axe/rapier and shortsword/dagger getting the extra boost to damage of the non light weapon + stat bonus n that attack and the no stat bus attack with the light weapon ( or reverse to equalize damage between weapons somewhat) dual wielding isn’t really aimed at martials but at everyone else while TWF is for martials.
That's technically true I guess. But Bards can't use Martial weapons, meaning there is no better option than the short sword anyway. And Rogues can only use Martial weapons that have the Finesse property, which means they get exactly one new option - the rapier. And I imagine that few other classes will have access to Martial weapons either, other than the ones in the Warrior group, who can take the fighting style.
Yes, a Bard can take weapon training at level 4, then dual wielder at level 8, and then they can finally exchange one d6 weapon for a d8, instead of getting a higher level feat.
And there might be a few subclasses that see it as a little more feasible.
I'm not saying that no one will do it.
I just don't think anyone will find it especially satisfying.
(I also asked them to make Weapon Training a level 1 feat for this exact type of scenario)
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Ok so I have been trying to work out how two-weapon fighting/duel wielding will work in One D&D, compared to how it works now in 5e. First off let me say that I love playing a duel wielding character whether it is a elf with two swords or a dwarf with two warhammers love it!. But along with a lot of other people I have always felt that it was a little weak and underwhelming. So I was excited to see what changes were being purposed…. I have to say that I am very disappointed. So I thought it would be best to post and make sure I understand things correctly.
My current understating in 5e is that if you choose to make a character focused on two weapon fighting you need to take the Dual wielder feat and the Fighting Style: Two weapon fighting. This combination gives you the ability to add you modifier to the offhanded attack, it also lets you use any one handed weapons not just light ones (this is how I get my dual warhammer dwarf…yay!). You also get the +1 bonus to AC when you have a weapon in each hand.
From what I can tell from the UA/ One D&D test material the DUAL WIELDER feat now gives you a increase by +1 to DEX or STR but you can only treat one weapon as if it had the light property ( no more double warhmmers for me…sad day). The Fighting Style: Two weapon fighting seems to be the same from what I can tell. And then we have LIGHT [WEAPON PROPERTY] does this completely replace bonus action two weapon fighting? Or the Light weapon property or both? Or neither?
My understating under these new rules is that if you take the DUAL WIELDER feat and choose Two Weapon Fighting as a fighting style then you gain the following
My conclusion is that this is a nerf to Two weapon fighting not a buff. I would much rather be able to run my dual warhammer dwarf then gain a +1 to DEX or STR, and get to use my bonus action every round.
In my mind the solution to buffing dual wielding was simple. Make the offhand attack part of the attack action and free up the bonus action, and leave everything else as it was. Am I missing something here, or do I have something confused. I have added below excerpts from the PHB and UA/One D&D test material for convenience.
Thanks for the Help!
From the PHB:
Two Weapon fighting (bonus action).
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it.
Dual Wielder Feat:
You master fighting with two weapons, gaining the following benefits:
Fighting style: Two Weapon Fighting.
When you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the second attack.
Weapon properties
Light. A light weapon is small and easy to handle, making it ideal for use when fighting with two weapons.
From UA/One D&D:
DUAL WIELDER feat:
4th-Level Feat Prerequisite: Proficiency with Any Martial Weapon Repeatable: No.
You master fighting with two weapons, gaining the following benefits:
Ability Score Increase.
Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
Enhanced Dual Wielding.
When you are holding a Weapon with the Light property in one hand, you can treat a non-Light Weapon in your other hand as if it had the Light property, provided that Weapon lacks the Two-Handed property.
Quick Draw.
You can draw or stow two Weapons that lack the Two-Handed property when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
FIGHTING STYLE:
TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING 1st-Level Feat Prerequisite: Warrior Group Repeatable: No
When you make the extra attack of the Light weapon property, you can add your Ability Modifier to the damage of the extra attack.
LIGHT [WEAPON PROPERTY]
When you take the Attack Action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon in one hand, you can make one extra attack as part of the same Action. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon in the other hand, and you don’t add your Ability Modifier to the extra attack’s damage. You can make this extra attack only once on each of your turns. For example, if you take the Attack Action on your turn and have a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other—each of which has the Light property—you can make one attack with each weapon, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity Modifier to the damage roll of the second weapon.
You pretty much got it all covered.
Anyone can use two light weapons and make an extra attack with one when taking the Attack action. No bonus action needed. (Basically one free attack with the off hand no matter how many attacks you have). The off hand does not add your STR or DEX to damage.
Two Weapon fighting style lets you add the damage to the off hand.
Dual Wielder gives you +1 to STR or DEX, and lets you use one weapon without the light property.
Since shortswords are now Simple weapons, more classes can use two shortsword. With Dual Wielder you could use a shortsword and a longsword for example. Or a warhammer and a handaxe. Essentially you are increasing one damage dice from a d6 to a d8. It's pretty underwhelming, and I put that in my survey. (Oh, and the Quick Draw, which matters at some tables. It's good to clarify either way. )
I imagine they removed the +1 to AC because you could use the +1 DEX to boost your stats enough to get +1 AC in some circumstances and they didn't want to make it a double bonus. But that won't apply to every character. Whether the bonus stat is worth it will be subjective.
(Note that they don't actually call it an off hand. I just used that term for simplicity sake here.)
Now that it doesn't take a bonus action, dual wielding is actually worth considering and not a complete sub-optimal trash. However, Dual Wielder feat sucks. Miserably.
Some more thoughts on this just because I’m still at an absolute loss as to what they were hoping to accomplish here.
Historically speaking to have been even remotely effective in combat dual wielding in 5e you had to take the Dual Wielder Feat and the Fighting Style: Two weapon fighting. Without those two things dual wielding was pretty useless, not that it was great with them, it is still for sure subpar. With this combination you could grab two weapons that do 1d8 damage at 4 level. At 5 level you get an extra attack, and another at 11 level (I’m working off a just fighter build for simplicity). So from level 1-3 you’re doing 2d6 damage per round, assuming you are using your bonus action, for the “offhand strike”, 4 level you can take the Dual Wielder Feat and switch to weapons that do 1d8, so for level 4 you are doing 2d8 if you are using your BA for the offhand strike. Level 5-10 you’re doing 3d8 damage, again using your bonus action. Level 11-19 you’re doing 4d8 damage, again using your bonus action. If you have taken one of the simpler Martial Archetypes like Champion you don’t get anything else to use your bonus action on anyway just second wind, which, at least in theory, you should only be using rarely if you get in a bad spot. You get significantly more bonus actions if you take the Battle Master Martial Archetype, depending on what maneuvers you choose. But it doesn’t seem like a lot of these would synergize with Two Weapon Fighting anyway. Base on my own experiences I have found that the times I really wish I had a bonus action to use is when I have multiclassed a Two Weapon Fighter with a spellcaster.
Same scenario as above with a Two Weapon Fighter under the new test rules, from level 1-3 you get 2d6 and have your bonus action available. At level 4 you can take the new version of the Dual Wielder Feat upgrading one of your d6 to a d8 so for 4 level you get 1d6 + 1d8 and still have your bonus action. At level 5 you get an extra attack so that puts you at 2d8+1d6 and a bonus action. At level 11 you gain another attack puts you at 3d8+1d6 and a bonus action.
I don’t claim to have a good grasp on dice percentages so hopefully someone who does will weigh in on the difference between these two mathematically. From just looking at it doesn’t look like there is that much a difference in damage output maybe very slightly more under 5e. It seems like from people I have talked with in the community and my own experiences that two weapon fighting is under powder in 5e. But based on everything I’m seeing it is actually worse in the play-test rules for One DnD.
The main issue that I have is still that RAW you can no longer dual wield Warhammers or battleaxes which from a thematic stand point is a huge problem. No more dwarven fighters running around smashing a goblin head’s from both sides with duel warhammers? No more dwarven warriors decapitating dragons with a battleaxe in each hand. So why such a huge thematic nerf for what is little to no gain for people who like playing dual wielders?
Yeah I have no idea. That was my one complaint about the whole dual wielding progression in the survey. In fact, in my playtesting, using two light weapons was so good it was hard not to want to take it on every character. Just using the light weapon rule alone. But once the ranger got the Dual Wielder feat, it felt like a pitiful boost compared to the other characters.
I am actually hoping for more weapon properties. More properties can make martial characters more interesting by default and make their weapon choices more interesting.
I'm somewhat ambivalent about weapon properties myself.
On the one hand, I like what we have far better than a lot of previous versions and I don't want to mess that up. I don't think weapons are really that different from each other, specifically at the level of abstraction that DnD uses, so I don't need new properties for that to work for me. And many ideas I've seen thrown around usually add a lot of fiddly rules for very little practical effect.
But on the other, I recognize there is a big desire for this, and I'm all for making more people happy. I do think that Strength weapons need a buff because Dexterity fighting has too many advantages. And I can see some interesting options coming out of it, if done well.
That's the biggest thing for me, personally. They have to balance out well and be easy to play. There shouldn't be any clear winners, just different styles of play. Someone who wants to use hammers over swords should be able to without being penalized too much. And everyone should be able to memorize what theirs do in a few minutes.
Since they've already made a big buff to Light weapons, which seems to work rather well in my playtests at least, I'm looking forward to seeing what else they might come up with. I could see Heavy weapons having a sort of mini-GWM built in. Where you could sacrifice your proficiency bonus on your attack to to add it to your damage roll, for example.
Completely agree. And for somethings I think we are already fine. GWM is fine for great weapons, the heavy and reach weapons have pole-arm master. My biggest issue right now is versatile weapons. They really struggle for their niche. There is no fighting style that they enjoy, they can benefit from dueling or great weapon fighting, but if you are going to wield a weapon 1 handed any 1d8 weapon that doesn't require 2 hands will do. Similarly if you are going to use great weapon fighting you are just better off with a real 2 handed weapon. Versatile weapons on the whole are just in a weird limbo spot.
Yeah I agree, Versatile weapons are kind of odd. They are what they say they are... versatile. But really in practice only to a small degree. Because people do tend to build their fighting styles and feats around one path. Even non-martial classes usually just stick to one type of fighting most of the time. The option to switch mid battle is there, and it's moderately useful, but most people do ignore it.
If I had to guess the design intent, I think they are really just there to simplify the weapon list. Most of them could have had separate entries, like a Battleaxe, and a Two Handed Battleaxe (And the Heavy Greataxe for the big people). With only one way to use each of them. And that would suit most people fine. They would but the one that fit their fighting style. But this way makes for a list that fits on one page.
It also helps in giving out magic weapons, especially for the more rare weapon types. A magic battleaxe could be used by anyone in any fighting style. If you found a two-handed one, but you used a shield, it would be a waste. And since longswords are the most common magic weapons, it does make them usable by more characters.
Those aren't very impressive reasons, they are just all I can think of for the property to exist at the moment. I'm not sure how they could make them more exciting. But it's worth considering.
It is definitely a buff. Losing 1 average damage in exchange for an entire bonus action is huge. Fighters now get more attacks with action surge, monks can now get 5 attacks per turn, barbarians can rage and make 2 attacks on the same turn, rangers can cast hunters mark and make 2 attacks on the same turn, paladins can cast a smite spell and make 2 attacks, rogues can make 2 attacks and still cunning action, etc.
This is a buff to every single martial class and makes 2 weapon fighting actually viable.
Moving the attack into the attack action was a big step forward.
What should happen is the Dual Wielder Feat should add +Stat to dmg of off hand attack.
The style should allow you to use non light weapons in your off hand.
This makes the feat useful and keeps the style in the same realm as other fighting styles. Progression wise it prevents TWF from dominating pre level 4.
They need to find some other way to improve scaling in tier 3/4. I personally prefer the +1 AC on the feat I don’t think it hurt anyone. Or something like add prof bonus on AoO when wielding two weapons.
Oh for sure, the Light weapon property is a huge buff to every martial. Combined with the Unarmed Strike rules, Monks just got way better. Even if they don't change anything else for the class, which I imagine they will.
A level 1 Monk can now attack with two shortswords, at 1d6+DEX each, and then an Unarmed Strike that can grapple, shove, or do 1d4+DEX more damage. If they take the Tavern Brawler feat, they can shove AND do the damage, rerolling 1s. The rerolls might make Tavern Brawler the most popular Monk feat entirely, since it will apply throughout their career. The Grappler feat at level 4 makes them truly impressive.
By removing the extra attack from the Bonus Attack, they have freed up every martial to do the things they need to do. That's a massive improvement.
The Dual Wielder feat is just a little disappointing compared to any other martial feat at that level. Maybe they'll adjust it. I hope they give it just a small extra bonus. But either way, at least everyone got a boost across the board from level 1.
The monk is a big winner this UA in so many ways. It’s like any fix they do to Martials has such a dramatic impact on the monk.
Want control? Become a grappler with tavern brawler.
Want Dmg? Twf with two short swords.
Want to do both? Attack with twf and free item to put weapon away. Than Martial Arts BA attack and grab the target.
If the monk wants to duel wield then the two weapon fighting, fighting style feat is also a viable choice in addition to tavern brawler thanks to monk being a member of the warrior group so it has access at level 1 to it.
Awesome catch on that one!
The other thing to catch here is that rogues, bards etc can’t take the TWF feat but can take dual wielding this allows them go longsword/battle axe/rapier and shortsword/dagger getting the extra boost to damage of the non light weapon + stat bonus n that attack and the no stat bus attack with the light weapon ( or reverse to equalize damage between weapons somewhat) dual wielding isn’t really aimed at martials but at everyone else while TWF is for martials.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
That's technically true I guess. But Bards can't use Martial weapons, meaning there is no better option than the short sword anyway. And Rogues can only use Martial weapons that have the Finesse property, which means they get exactly one new option - the rapier. And I imagine that few other classes will have access to Martial weapons either, other than the ones in the Warrior group, who can take the fighting style.
L4 feat - weapon training - get access to all martial weapons.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Plus various subclass features we haven’t seen yet like valor bard.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Yes, a Bard can take weapon training at level 4, then dual wielder at level 8, and then they can finally exchange one d6 weapon for a d8, instead of getting a higher level feat.
And there might be a few subclasses that see it as a little more feasible.
I'm not saying that no one will do it.
I just don't think anyone will find it especially satisfying.
(I also asked them to make Weapon Training a level 1 feat for this exact type of scenario)