They get almost baseline more than Sorcerers. You've just described a perk which let them occasionally get EVEN more!
Although this does require DM participation in the mechanic (dropping an occasional scroll/book as loot) which sounds like they are moving away from by the interviews.
Well, first of all, there's really no need to talk about sorcerers since those haven't had an UA yet.
I do see what you mean now, with the cleric being unable to swap out higher level spells with lower level spells. If I remember rightly, that was something the bard and ranger could do. I agree that it makes more sense to be able to do so, since sometimes there just aren't a whole lot of options for a spell level and you would rather have another option for something lower level. I also don't think that would be a balancing issue at all, since you're giving up a chance for something that's theoretically greater for something theoretically lesser.
Giving up lower level spells for higher levels doesn't seem like a good choice to me, though. Why shouldn't a class be able to prepare 5 of their highest level spell slot? Because forcing a caster to choose between the ability to cast teleport and the ability to cast delayed blast fireball, even if it's just on a daily basis, is a much needed limit to their versatility.
Saying that you cannot do the exact same things in the playtest as you can in 5e is a really silly thing to say; of course you can't do the exact same things, otherwise it wouldn't be a new edition. If wizards could cast 9th level spells by level one in 5e and that was taken away in the playtest, then that would be "a problem" for them too. That doesn't make it a bad decision to take it away.
I'm worried about sorcerers because the issue is the same with all three casters that have been detailed so far, Bards, Rangers and Clerics, and by the time the Mage group rolls around, the rule will likely be set in stone. As for being able to over prep higher level spells, (i.e. skipping 4th level spells and prepping 6 5th level spells) you can already do this in game, and it is something that the design they are going for would actually make more useful with the new downcasting mechanic they have hinted at (i.e. you still have to wait until you get fifth level spells to prepare cone of cold, but once you have it, you can cast it using a lower level spell slot by removing a die of damage for each level you go down).
As for your scenerio worrying about someone prepping teleport and delayed blast fireball, this is how it already is in the game, and since they are talking about letting you downcast spells, it makes even more sense in the new edition to be able to do that than in the current edition.
Yes. I am aware that it is already in the game. I am aware of that, I have remarked on that, and I don't care about that. I know that casters can already do this in 5e. What I am saying is that they should not be able to. It is a playtest. It is here to change the game. All you are saying is "but that's not how it used to work!" Of course it isn't how it used to work. That's the point.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
People keep saying that casters have too much versatility and then they ALWAYS complain when casters have their versatility reduced simply because it "reduces their versatility." Yeah, that's the point. I don't think it's such a horrible thing that you no longer have a ton of different options for your highest level spells anymore.
And you can change it, everyday, for any spell.
Yes many people don't change their prepared spells, but what is the use of that in druids, cleric, paladins, now bards if you use the same spells in every situation... just change it the next day.
I think sorcerers will work like bards: could select from from entire arcane list but in specific schools only... would prefer something different.
Wizards: i expect the spellbook to be their main focus, as know or prepared. If they give access to every single spell, they kill the need for a spellbook
Wizards prepare spells and can cast rituals without preparing them from their spellbook. If WOTC just give access to the entire list, it just means that wizards are no longer going to be handed an empty spell book they need to fill out like a pokedex they are going to be handed a completed book. Getting access to the list doesn't kill the need for the spellbook, it is the bloody spellbook.
People keep saying that casters have too much versatility and then they ALWAYS complain when casters have their versatility reduced simply because it "reduces their versatility." Yeah, that's the point. I don't think it's such a horrible thing that you no longer have a ton of different options for your highest level spells anymore.
And you can change it, everyday, for any spell.
Yes many people don't change their prepared spells, but what is the use of that in druids, cleric, paladins, now bards if you use the same spells in every situation... just change it the next day.
I think sorcerers will work like bards: could select from from entire arcane list but in specific schools only... would prefer something different.
Wizards: i expect the spellbook to be their main focus, as know or prepared. If they give access to every single spell, they kill the need for a spellbook
Wizards prepare spells and can cast rituals without preparing them from their spellbook. If WOTC just give access to the entire list, it just means that wizards are no longer going to be handed an empty spell book they need to fill out like a pokedex they are going to be handed a completed book. Getting access to the list doesn't kill the need for the spellbook, it is the bloody spellbook.
It makes the spell book purely a background feature like how clerics pray to get their spells. There are a lot of things I don't like about this system. Like I don't think classes should inherently know every spell on their lists. It worked with clerics and druids in 5e because their lists just weren't as broad or as good as the wizard list and the source of thier power it made some sense at least. The preparation system is too restrictive as well imo. This is overall likely a buff for most classes, not sure in the long run if people will like this. But everyone instantly knowing every spell does not work for me. The wizard bob does some research and invents a new spell, instantly universe wide every wizard knows the spell. The thematic elements of this really suck.
Yes. I am aware that it is already in the game. I am aware of that, I have remarked on that, and I don't care about that. I know that casters can already do this in 5e. What I am saying is that they should not be able to. It is a playtest. It is here to change the game. All you are saying is "but that's not how it used to work!" Of course it isn't how it used to work. That's the point.
No, I'm saying it's not the game breaking issue you're acting like it is. I think changing it is a bad decision. I think that if you have the ability to prepare 22 spells, you should be able to prepare the 22 spells you want to prepare. I think if a wizard wants to prepare 16 nineth level spells and 6 first level spells, they should be able to do that. It might be a stupid decision, but it's one the player should be able to make, because they can still only cast one 9th level spell a day, one 8th level spell a day, and two 7th level spells a day.
Yes. I am aware that it is already in the game. I am aware of that, I have remarked on that, and I don't care about that. I know that casters can already do this in 5e. What I am saying is that they should not be able to. It is a playtest. It is here to change the game. All you are saying is "but that's not how it used to work!" Of course it isn't how it used to work. That's the point.
No, I'm saying it's not the game breaking issue you're acting like it is. I think changing it is a bad decision. I think that if you have the ability to prepare 22 spells, you should be able to prepare the 22 spells you want to prepare. I think if a wizard wants to prepare 16 nineth level spells and 6 first level spells, they should be able to do that. It might be a stupid decision, but it's one the player should be able to make, because they can still only cast one 9th level spell a day, one 8th level spell a day, and two 7th level spells a day.
Forcing a caster to choose between the ability to cast teleport and the ability to cast delayed blast fireball, even if it's just on a daily basis, is a much needed limit to their versatility. I've said this twice already. Versatility is not how many different things you can do in a single day, it's how many different options you can have. Even if you can only cast one, having the ability to cast either teleport or delayed blast fireball whenever necessary increases versatility greatly. Having to choose one, when you don't know exactly what the day is going to entail, makes you less versatile. Your consistent argument that more higher level spells is not more versatility is simply incorrect.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Yes. I am aware that it is already in the game. I am aware of that, I have remarked on that, and I don't care about that. I know that casters can already do this in 5e. What I am saying is that they should not be able to. It is a playtest. It is here to change the game. All you are saying is "but that's not how it used to work!" Of course it isn't how it used to work. That's the point.
No, I'm saying it's not the game breaking issue you're acting like it is. I think changing it is a bad decision. I think that if you have the ability to prepare 22 spells, you should be able to prepare the 22 spells you want to prepare. I think if a wizard wants to prepare 16 nineth level spells and 6 first level spells, they should be able to do that. It might be a stupid decision, but it's one the player should be able to make, because they can still only cast one 9th level spell a day, one 8th level spell a day, and two 7th level spells a day.
Forcing a caster to choose between the ability to cast teleport and the ability to cast delayed blast fireball, even if it's just on a daily basis, is a much needed limit to their versatility. I've said this twice already. Versatility is not how many different things you can do in a single day, it's how many different options you can have. Even if you can only cast one, having the ability to cast either teleport or delayed blast fireball whenever necessary increases versatility greatly. Having to choose one, when you don't know exactly what the day is going to entail, makes you less versatile. Your consistent argument that more higher level spells is not more versatility is simply incorrect.
I'm not saying it isn't more versitile, I'm saying that versitility isn't a bad thing. I'd also point out that your example is a bad one because even under the new rules, a max level caster can already prepare both of those spells, because they're only level 7, and you get slots for 2 level 7's. But even if we take your example and generatize it to 8th and 9th level spells, there are still trade offs. Every spell you prepare at a higher level is one less low level spell you're not preparing, and high level spells, while powerful, are also usually very situational. Their either nukes, or ridiculously situational utility spells that most people aren't going to prepare unless they know they'rer going to use it. Who is going to walk around with Simulacrum or Clone or Sequester prepared, just in case?
People keep saying that casters have too much versatility and then they ALWAYS complain when casters have their versatility reduced simply because it "reduces their versatility." Yeah, that's the point. I don't think it's such a horrible thing that you no longer have a ton of different options for your highest level spells anymore.
And you can change it, everyday, for any spell.
Yes many people don't change their prepared spells, but what is the use of that in druids, cleric, paladins, now bards if you use the same spells in every situation... just change it the next day.
I think sorcerers will work like bards: could select from from entire arcane list but in specific schools only... would prefer something different.
Wizards: i expect the spellbook to be their main focus, as know or prepared. If they give access to every single spell, they kill the need for a spellbook
Wizards prepare spells and can cast rituals without preparing them from their spellbook. If WOTC just give access to the entire list, it just means that wizards are no longer going to be handed an empty spell book they need to fill out like a pokedex they are going to be handed a completed book. Getting access to the list doesn't kill the need for the spellbook, it is the bloody spellbook.
It makes the spell book purely a background feature like how clerics pray to get their spells. There are a lot of things I don't like about this system. Like I don't think classes should inherently know every spell on their lists. It worked with clerics and druids in 5e because their lists just weren't as broad or as good as the wizard list and the source of thier power it made some sense at least. The preparation system is too restrictive as well imo. This is overall likely a buff for most classes, not sure in the long run if people will like this. But everyone instantly knowing every spell does not work for me. The wizard bob does some research and invents a new spell, instantly universe wide every wizard knows the spell. The thematic elements of this really suck.
If only there was a mechanical way for wizard characters to invent their own spells or modify spells they already have in their spellbook in a permanent way via class features. That would actually make the class more interesting to me in terms of representing them as a magical scholar, because it gives the idea that wizards aren't just mindlessly copying spells and toolboxing them, but actually have enough of an understanding of how spells work on a fundamental level that they can build their own over time.
That would be nice, but I'd like it to go beyond that. Let fighters research and develop new battle master maneuvers etc.
Yes. I am aware that it is already in the game. I am aware of that, I have remarked on that, and I don't care about that. I know that casters can already do this in 5e. What I am saying is that they should not be able to. It is a playtest. It is here to change the game. All you are saying is "but that's not how it used to work!" Of course it isn't how it used to work. That's the point.
No, I'm saying it's not the game breaking issue you're acting like it is. I think changing it is a bad decision. I think that if you have the ability to prepare 22 spells, you should be able to prepare the 22 spells you want to prepare. I think if a wizard wants to prepare 16 nineth level spells and 6 first level spells, they should be able to do that. It might be a stupid decision, but it's one the player should be able to make, because they can still only cast one 9th level spell a day, one 8th level spell a day, and two 7th level spells a day.
Forcing a caster to choose between the ability to cast teleport and the ability to cast delayed blast fireball, even if it's just on a daily basis, is a much needed limit to their versatility. I've said this twice already. Versatility is not how many different things you can do in a single day, it's how many different options you can have. Even if you can only cast one, having the ability to cast either teleport or delayed blast fireball whenever necessary increases versatility greatly. Having to choose one, when you don't know exactly what the day is going to entail, makes you less versatile. Your consistent argument that more higher level spells is not more versatility is simply incorrect.
I'm not saying it isn't more versitile, I'm saying that versitility isn't a bad thing. I'd also point out that your example is a bad one because even under the new rules, a max level caster can already prepare both of those spells, because they're only level 7, and you get slots for 2 level 7's. But even if we take your example and generatize it to 8th and 9th level spells, there are still trade offs. Every spell you prepare at a higher level is one less low level spell you're not preparing, and high level spells, while powerful, are also usually very situational. Their either nukes, or ridiculously situational utility spells that most people aren't going to prepare unless they know they'rer going to use it. Who is going to walk around with Simulacrum or Clone or Sequester prepared, just in case?
Versatility is well known to be the thing that casters have way too much of. My example wasn't talking about a max level caster and I never implied as such. Yes, an extra higher level spell would come at the cost of a lower level spell, but having two options for your most powerful ability is much stronger than having an extra option for a less powerful ability. My example provided two spells that are very useful in many situations, so that point is moot. Having to choose one would greatly restrict versatility for a day.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I love that people in this thread are about 3 posts away from reinventing homebrew.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
People keep saying that casters have too much versatility and then they ALWAYS complain when casters have their versatility reduced simply because it "reduces their versatility." Yeah, that's the point. I don't think it's such a horrible thing that you no longer have a ton of different options for your highest level spells anymore.
And you can change it, everyday, for any spell.
Yes many people don't change their prepared spells, but what is the use of that in druids, cleric, paladins, now bards if you use the same spells in every situation... just change it the next day.
I think sorcerers will work like bards: could select from from entire arcane list but in specific schools only... would prefer something different.
Wizards: i expect the spellbook to be their main focus, as know or prepared. If they give access to every single spell, they kill the need for a spellbook
Wizards prepare spells and can cast rituals without preparing them from their spellbook. If WOTC just give access to the entire list, it just means that wizards are no longer going to be handed an empty spell book they need to fill out like a pokedex they are going to be handed a completed book. Getting access to the list doesn't kill the need for the spellbook, it is the bloody spellbook.
It makes the spell book purely a background feature like how clerics pray to get their spells. There are a lot of things I don't like about this system. Like I don't think classes should inherently know every spell on their lists. It worked with clerics and druids in 5e because their lists just weren't as broad or as good as the wizard list and the source of thier power it made some sense at least. The preparation system is too restrictive as well imo. This is overall likely a buff for most classes, not sure in the long run if people will like this. But everyone instantly knowing every spell does not work for me. The wizard bob does some research and invents a new spell, instantly universe wide every wizard knows the spell. The thematic elements of this really suck.
Except, no obviously that isn't the way this works. The spells listed in the PHB aren't new inventions. If your evil has a homebrew spell that he made, you don't have to add that to the spell book the wizard from his mentor or school. And vice versa, if there are rules for a wizard to make their own spells.
In some games the spellbook is already a background feature. GM's rarely damage or steal a spell book and some DM's might never give a scroll. And for those DM's to give a scroll it is probably a spell needed to progress the plot and is now just a wizard gold tax.
Ya you may not like it, but I am 90% that is what it is going to be.
People keep saying that casters have too much versatility and then they ALWAYS complain when casters have their versatility reduced simply because it "reduces their versatility." Yeah, that's the point. I don't think it's such a horrible thing that you no longer have a ton of different options for your highest level spells anymore.
And you can change it, everyday, for any spell.
Yes many people don't change their prepared spells, but what is the use of that in druids, cleric, paladins, now bards if you use the same spells in every situation... just change it the next day.
I think sorcerers will work like bards: could select from from entire arcane list but in specific schools only... would prefer something different.
Wizards: i expect the spellbook to be their main focus, as know or prepared. If they give access to every single spell, they kill the need for a spellbook
Wizards prepare spells and can cast rituals without preparing them from their spellbook. If WOTC just give access to the entire list, it just means that wizards are no longer going to be handed an empty spell book they need to fill out like a pokedex they are going to be handed a completed book. Getting access to the list doesn't kill the need for the spellbook, it is the bloody spellbook.
It makes the spell book purely a background feature like how clerics pray to get their spells. There are a lot of things I don't like about this system. Like I don't think classes should inherently know every spell on their lists. It worked with clerics and druids in 5e because their lists just weren't as broad or as good as the wizard list and the source of thier power it made some sense at least. The preparation system is too restrictive as well imo. This is overall likely a buff for most classes, not sure in the long run if people will like this. But everyone instantly knowing every spell does not work for me. The wizard bob does some research and invents a new spell, instantly universe wide every wizard knows the spell. The thematic elements of this really suck.
Except, no obviously that isn't the way this works. The spells listed in the PHB aren't new inventions. If your evil has a homebrew spell that he made, you don't have to add that to the spell book the wizard from his mentor or school. And vice versa, if there are rules for a wizard to make their own spells.
In some games the spellbook is already a background feature. GM's rarely damage or steal a spell book and some DM's might never give a scroll. And for those DM's to give a scroll it is probably a spell needed to progress the plot and is now just a wizard gold tax.
Ya you may not like it, but I am 90% that is what it is going to be.
So when supplement X comes out with a new book the spells don't poof into your wizards books. This is just a really dumb plan, and yes its probably what they intend as good design isn't their plan.
Yes. I am aware that it is already in the game. I am aware of that, I have remarked on that, and I don't care about that. I know that casters can already do this in 5e. What I am saying is that they should not be able to. It is a playtest. It is here to change the game. All you are saying is "but that's not how it used to work!" Of course it isn't how it used to work. That's the point.
No, I'm saying it's not the game breaking issue you're acting like it is. I think changing it is a bad decision. I think that if you have the ability to prepare 22 spells, you should be able to prepare the 22 spells you want to prepare. I think if a wizard wants to prepare 16 nineth level spells and 6 first level spells, they should be able to do that. It might be a stupid decision, but it's one the player should be able to make, because they can still only cast one 9th level spell a day, one 8th level spell a day, and two 7th level spells a day.
Forcing a caster to choose between the ability to cast teleport and the ability to cast delayed blast fireball, even if it's just on a daily basis, is a much needed limit to their versatility. I've said this twice already. Versatility is not how many different things you can do in a single day, it's how many different options you can have. Even if you can only cast one, having the ability to cast either teleport or delayed blast fireball whenever necessary increases versatility greatly. Having to choose one, when you don't know exactly what the day is going to entail, makes you less versatile. Your consistent argument that more higher level spells is not more versatility is simply incorrect.
I'm not saying it isn't more versitile, I'm saying that versitility isn't a bad thing. I'd also point out that your example is a bad one because even under the new rules, a max level caster can already prepare both of those spells, because they're only level 7, and you get slots for 2 level 7's. But even if we take your example and generatize it to 8th and 9th level spells, there are still trade offs. Every spell you prepare at a higher level is one less low level spell you're not preparing, and high level spells, while powerful, are also usually very situational. Their either nukes, or ridiculously situational utility spells that most people aren't going to prepare unless they know they'rer going to use it. Who is going to walk around with Simulacrum or Clone or Sequester prepared, just in case?
Versatility is well known to be the thing that casters have way too much of. My example wasn't talking about a max level caster and I never implied as such. Yes, an extra higher level spell would come at the cost of a lower level spell, but having two options for your most powerful ability is much stronger than having an extra option for a less powerful ability. My example provided two spells that are very useful in many situations, so that point is moot. Having to choose one would greatly restrict versatility for a day.
Disagree. Most people don't have a problem with their versatility but they do have a problem with the overall power of their spells. It is not that they have a bunch of tools but that their tools are almost always better than the mundane solution.
Yes. I am aware that it is already in the game. I am aware of that, I have remarked on that, and I don't care about that. I know that casters can already do this in 5e. What I am saying is that they should not be able to. It is a playtest. It is here to change the game. All you are saying is "but that's not how it used to work!" Of course it isn't how it used to work. That's the point.
No, I'm saying it's not the game breaking issue you're acting like it is. I think changing it is a bad decision. I think that if you have the ability to prepare 22 spells, you should be able to prepare the 22 spells you want to prepare. I think if a wizard wants to prepare 16 nineth level spells and 6 first level spells, they should be able to do that. It might be a stupid decision, but it's one the player should be able to make, because they can still only cast one 9th level spell a day, one 8th level spell a day, and two 7th level spells a day.
Forcing a caster to choose between the ability to cast teleport and the ability to cast delayed blast fireball, even if it's just on a daily basis, is a much needed limit to their versatility. I've said this twice already. Versatility is not how many different things you can do in a single day, it's how many different options you can have. Even if you can only cast one, having the ability to cast either teleport or delayed blast fireball whenever necessary increases versatility greatly. Having to choose one, when you don't know exactly what the day is going to entail, makes you less versatile. Your consistent argument that more higher level spells is not more versatility is simply incorrect.
I'm not saying it isn't more versitile, I'm saying that versitility isn't a bad thing. I'd also point out that your example is a bad one because even under the new rules, a max level caster can already prepare both of those spells, because they're only level 7, and you get slots for 2 level 7's. But even if we take your example and generatize it to 8th and 9th level spells, there are still trade offs. Every spell you prepare at a higher level is one less low level spell you're not preparing, and high level spells, while powerful, are also usually very situational. Their either nukes, or ridiculously situational utility spells that most people aren't going to prepare unless they know they'rer going to use it. Who is going to walk around with Simulacrum or Clone or Sequester prepared, just in case?
Versatility is well known to be the thing that casters have way too much of. My example wasn't talking about a max level caster and I never implied as such. Yes, an extra higher level spell would come at the cost of a lower level spell, but having two options for your most powerful ability is much stronger than having an extra option for a less powerful ability. My example provided two spells that are very useful in many situations, so that point is moot. Having to choose one would greatly restrict versatility for a day.
Disagree. Most people don't have a problem with their versatility but they do have a problem with the overall power of their spells. It is not that they have a bunch of tools but that their tools are almost always better than the mundane solution.
Agreed. Too many spells are just "Here's another way you can roll stupid large numbers for damage." I would much rather have spells like Prestidigitation, Detect Magic, Comprehend Languages, Sending, Message, and so on than yet another nuke spell. My current charater is 9th level. She has 2 damage spells. 1 is a Cantrip. She's going to take a second damage cantrip when she reaches 10th level, and that's it. The last damage spell she'll be taking. Which brings me right back around to my original complaint. I want to be able to take more utility spells, which are mostly low level stuff. I don't need a level 8 spell. Level 8 Sorcerer spells are all garbage. I'd rather take an extra level 1 spell. Hell, I'd rather have an extra cantrip slot.
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How is this not fair to Wizard's?
They get almost baseline more than Sorcerers. You've just described a perk which let them occasionally get EVEN more!
Although this does require DM participation in the mechanic (dropping an occasional scroll/book as loot) which sounds like they are moving away from by the interviews.
I'm worried about sorcerers because the issue is the same with all three casters that have been detailed so far, Bards, Rangers and Clerics, and by the time the Mage group rolls around, the rule will likely be set in stone. As for being able to over prep higher level spells, (i.e. skipping 4th level spells and prepping 6 5th level spells) you can already do this in game, and it is something that the design they are going for would actually make more useful with the new downcasting mechanic they have hinted at (i.e. you still have to wait until you get fifth level spells to prepare cone of cold, but once you have it, you can cast it using a lower level spell slot by removing a die of damage for each level you go down).
As for your scenerio worrying about someone prepping teleport and delayed blast fireball, this is how it already is in the game, and since they are talking about letting you downcast spells, it makes even more sense in the new edition to be able to do that than in the current edition.
Yes. I am aware that it is already in the game. I am aware of that, I have remarked on that, and I don't care about that. I know that casters can already do this in 5e. What I am saying is that they should not be able to. It is a playtest. It is here to change the game. All you are saying is "but that's not how it used to work!" Of course it isn't how it used to work. That's the point.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Wizards prepare spells and can cast rituals without preparing them from their spellbook. If WOTC just give access to the entire list, it just means that wizards are no longer going to be handed an empty spell book they need to fill out like a pokedex they are going to be handed a completed book. Getting access to the list doesn't kill the need for the spellbook, it is the bloody spellbook.
It makes the spell book purely a background feature like how clerics pray to get their spells. There are a lot of things I don't like about this system. Like I don't think classes should inherently know every spell on their lists. It worked with clerics and druids in 5e because their lists just weren't as broad or as good as the wizard list and the source of thier power it made some sense at least. The preparation system is too restrictive as well imo. This is overall likely a buff for most classes, not sure in the long run if people will like this. But everyone instantly knowing every spell does not work for me. The wizard bob does some research and invents a new spell, instantly universe wide every wizard knows the spell. The thematic elements of this really suck.
No, I'm saying it's not the game breaking issue you're acting like it is. I think changing it is a bad decision. I think that if you have the ability to prepare 22 spells, you should be able to prepare the 22 spells you want to prepare. I think if a wizard wants to prepare 16 nineth level spells and 6 first level spells, they should be able to do that. It might be a stupid decision, but it's one the player should be able to make, because they can still only cast one 9th level spell a day, one 8th level spell a day, and two 7th level spells a day.
Forcing a caster to choose between the ability to cast teleport and the ability to cast delayed blast fireball, even if it's just on a daily basis, is a much needed limit to their versatility. I've said this twice already. Versatility is not how many different things you can do in a single day, it's how many different options you can have. Even if you can only cast one, having the ability to cast either teleport or delayed blast fireball whenever necessary increases versatility greatly. Having to choose one, when you don't know exactly what the day is going to entail, makes you less versatile. Your consistent argument that more higher level spells is not more versatility is simply incorrect.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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I'm not saying it isn't more versitile, I'm saying that versitility isn't a bad thing. I'd also point out that your example is a bad one because even under the new rules, a max level caster can already prepare both of those spells, because they're only level 7, and you get slots for 2 level 7's. But even if we take your example and generatize it to 8th and 9th level spells, there are still trade offs. Every spell you prepare at a higher level is one less low level spell you're not preparing, and high level spells, while powerful, are also usually very situational. Their either nukes, or ridiculously situational utility spells that most people aren't going to prepare unless they know they'rer going to use it. Who is going to walk around with Simulacrum or Clone or Sequester prepared, just in case?
That would be nice, but I'd like it to go beyond that. Let fighters research and develop new battle master maneuvers etc.
Versatility is well known to be the thing that casters have way too much of. My example wasn't talking about a max level caster and I never implied as such. Yes, an extra higher level spell would come at the cost of a lower level spell, but having two options for your most powerful ability is much stronger than having an extra option for a less powerful ability. My example provided two spells that are very useful in many situations, so that point is moot. Having to choose one would greatly restrict versatility for a day.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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I love that people in this thread are about 3 posts away from reinventing homebrew.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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Except, no obviously that isn't the way this works. The spells listed in the PHB aren't new inventions. If your evil has a homebrew spell that he made, you don't have to add that to the spell book the wizard from his mentor or school. And vice versa, if there are rules for a wizard to make their own spells.
In some games the spellbook is already a background feature. GM's rarely damage or steal a spell book and some DM's might never give a scroll. And for those DM's to give a scroll it is probably a spell needed to progress the plot and is now just a wizard gold tax.
Ya you may not like it, but I am 90% that is what it is going to be.
So when supplement X comes out with a new book the spells don't poof into your wizards books. This is just a really dumb plan, and yes its probably what they intend as good design isn't their plan.
Home brew never went away, but as this is about a play test we will try to change it to what we want so we don't have to home brew.
Disagree. Most people don't have a problem with their versatility but they do have a problem with the overall power of their spells. It is not that they have a bunch of tools but that their tools are almost always better than the mundane solution.
Agreed. Too many spells are just "Here's another way you can roll stupid large numbers for damage." I would much rather have spells like Prestidigitation, Detect Magic, Comprehend Languages, Sending, Message, and so on than yet another nuke spell. My current charater is 9th level. She has 2 damage spells. 1 is a Cantrip. She's going to take a second damage cantrip when she reaches 10th level, and that's it. The last damage spell she'll be taking. Which brings me right back around to my original complaint. I want to be able to take more utility spells, which are mostly low level stuff. I don't need a level 8 spell. Level 8 Sorcerer spells are all garbage. I'd rather take an extra level 1 spell. Hell, I'd rather have an extra cantrip slot.