Imagine if WotC makes gaining a level of exhaustion upon dropping to 0 a base rule. Dangling around 0 like a damage sponge that can negate big amounts of damage with 1 hp of healing will be much less attractive.
I think channel divinity and bardic inspiration have different jobs, and that is a good thing. BI is for keeping someone up who just went down. CD is for extending the day for the party. BI is for helping skill checks when someone is out of range of guidance (30 foot vs 10 foot range, personally I would love to see BI become 60 feet). CD is for dealing with undead. I don't think either is too strong personally.
It's a fair point for sure. I don't think a Bard needs to be a full healer. I think Bardic Inspiration is pretty good as it is. It has a good role of its own.
I like Channel Divinity having more options right from the start. I honestly really don't mind the healing amount... in the hands of a Cleric. I guess my main concern is that anyone can get that much healing by taking 1 level in the class. That's what feels off the most to me.
If Clerics got the full benefit, but multiclassing 1 level got half the benefit, it would be much better to me.
Yeah, you're right, healer is not the most popular role in the party for sure. I don't know why people don't like it more. I suspect there's a lot of psychology to it that we probably don't need to get into haha. And then lots of game design issues on top.
Fair enough. Though, to be honest, I find the topic endlessly fascinating, especially since I'm fairly sure that the attitude carries over into other games, including vidya, as well
Anyways, as for the rest. But, yeah, you're right about not all buffs being good, or even feeling good to people. That's a whole 'nother wormhole of science and psychology about how buffs and nerfs to game mechanics work. Its kind of tied to a whole Pavlovian reward/punishment behavior type thing, along with our fascination with dice and random numbers and addiction to gambling and (at an extreme) gacha games.
Its fundamentally tied less to big numbers and more to the feeling of getting a reward in the form of an endorphin rush when you beat a challenge. The lower the challenge, the less the rush. The bigger the challenge, the greater the rush when you succeed. Part of this too, I suspect, is why healers are less popular - they require a certain type of empathy and group identity that's not always present in everybody. People get rushes out of different things. Anyways!
When I DM, I... honestly, I don't really pay attention to the player's resource pool. Most of my gaming is done over discord and VTT, so we're lucky if we get two combats in per session. Having multiple in a single day where I'm expecting to drain the resources? Its not... really fun for anyone. Having to go for a long period IRL hoarding resources is more of a drain than a fun thing. At least, that's been my experience playing primarily online. Its a different style. Less fights, but bigger ones, and more downtime.
So, I expect, going into most fights, people are going to be full on resources. And that is very much shaping my expectations of how good Channel Divinity is here. I... just can't feel excited about it.
Yeah, you're right, healer is not the most popular role in the party for sure. I don't know why people don't like it more. I suspect there's a lot of psychology to it that we probably don't need to get into haha. And then lots of game design issues on top.
Fair enough. Though, to be honest, I find the topic endlessly fascinating, especially since I'm fairly sure that the attitude carries over into other games, including vidya, as well
Anyways, as for the rest. But, yeah, you're right about not all buffs being good, or even feeling good to people. That's a whole 'nother wormhole of science and psychology about how buffs and nerfs to game mechanics work. Its kind of tied to a whole Pavlovian reward/punishment behavior type thing, along with our fascination with dice and random numbers and addiction to gambling and (at an extreme) gacha games.
Its fundamentally tied less to big numbers and more to the feeling of getting a reward in the form of an endorphin rush when you beat a challenge. The lower the challenge, the less the rush. The bigger the challenge, the greater the rush when you succeed. Part of this too, I suspect, is why healers are less popular - they require a certain type of empathy and group identity that's not always present in everybody. People get rushes out of different things. Anyways!
When I DM, I... honestly, I don't really pay attention to the player's resource pool. Most of my gaming is done over discord and VTT, so we're lucky if we get two combats in per session. Having multiple in a single day where I'm expecting to drain the resources? Its not... really fun for anyone. Having to go for a long period IRL hoarding resources is more of a drain than a fun thing. At least, that's been my experience playing primarily online. Its a different style. Less fights, but bigger ones, and more downtime.
So, I expect, going into most fights, people are going to be full on resources. And that is very much shaping my expectations of how good Channel Divinity is here. I... just can't feel excited about it.
It's very interesting being on these forums and seeing how other people enjoy the game. Having always played in person, with my own unique players, and my own outlook on running adventures, I only had that idea of what people needed. I think I previously assumed that playing online was just like being in person, but with buffering issues haha.
It's good to see how other people play and the things they want from the game. It helps me get a bigger picture on the design challenges. I want a future game that works for a many tables as possible. So I really appreciate the insights.
Yeah, you're right, healer is not the most popular role in the party for sure. I don't know why people don't like it more. I suspect there's a lot of psychology to it that we probably don't need to get into haha. And then lots of game design issues on top.
If I had to speculate, maybe part of it is that people want to feel like an awesome warrior or a mighty spell-slinging mage that can put the enemy to its knees, as a way to feel more powerful than in their real life and also score bragging points within the party. And the healer role doesn't quite fulfill that. On top of that, for many of us, we live in fairly individualistic societies that convince us that we need to look out for ourselves first and others second.
For my part, I like playing a healer because I like being supportive and I guess on some level, I wish I had the healing powers Bards, Clerics, and Druids get in the game.
Going off of my MMO experience it's because it's a job that gets a lot of stress and flak even when you do it right. Even when you do it right people will complain because you didn't do it EXACTLY right. I.E. did someone die and no one revive them? It's not because the GM's been a stingy jerk and you haven't had the funds for the dust, it's because you, as the healer, didn't sink what little funds you got into getting the diamond dust and instead opted for some other item that, while helpful, can't bring back the dead. Not to mention that, when you know how to do a support well, everyone starts to EXPECT you will do stuff like twin-cast haste so, if you don't for any reason (like it not being ideal for that fight) you get blamed. When I did a divine soul in D&D I didn't have that problem, but I knew the people IRL well beforehand and they were longtime friends who know better. I wouldn't expect that to hold in a game with some guys I found online.
It's very interesting being on these forums and seeing how other people enjoy the game. Having always played in person, with my own unique players, and my own outlook on running adventures, I only had that idea of what people needed. I think I previously assumed that playing online was just like being in person, but with buffering issues haha.
It's good to see how other people play and the things they want from the game. It helps me get a bigger picture on the design challenges. I want a future game that works for a many tables as possible. So I really appreciate the insights.
Glad you like them! But, and this is really ironic, you are kind of right. It is like playing in person but with "buffering." If buffering included the time it takes for people to type in and make decisions, etc. In my experience, playing online means that everything is actually slower than in person. What would be a quick combat in person might drag on far longer.
So, there's a couple tricks you can pick up to speed things along, using gdocs/sheets, posting rules, how many combats you run, etc. A lot of the differences between online play and offline are just ways to cut down on "buffering," imho. And not everyone uses those tricks - just as each table has its own home rules, so too does every digital table to speed things up. I was mainly describing the quirks of my own experiences.
I for one play support roles(I have done it with almost every class) and realize most players don't like it. This is where trying to reach for such high satisfaction ratings really falls flat IMO. People who love damage mages might not be the best for imput into a class that has support as at least permanent percentage of their identity.
In order to make the game more accessible the outlines playstyles need a place where they can get their enjoyment. I still say "breadth of appeal" is a better goal than "depth of satisfaction". Still wotc can try to be as close a middle ground as feasible.
I really think long term investment in classes should show growth but cleric slightly missed the mark with the rate of exponential growth (i think thats the right term) by having the same skill increases by prof two different ways. The "majority" might want increases for the basic features to scale that way but a select few feel dissatisfied by such design.
Warlocks and sorcerers need a similar progression that feels right for them. The difference from cleric being they are often (but not always) damage and high impact rounds and each specifically having different sub-appeal focused around using invocations or metamagic in play.
I want to note something that I am unsure about. Maybe the issue with level 1 Channel divinity is with Cleric identity. The level 1 channel divinity, as is already noted, provides a solid amount of out of combat healing that helps extend the adventuring day without using spell slots. In addition it provides the turn undead option. The question I think is not "is this too strong for an action" I don't think it is, obviously that isn't an issue especially for full Clerics. The question also shouldn't be, "does this provide to much out of combat healing". I think the real question is "does this 1 level dip step on the toes of the full Cleric identity". In other words. Other than healing people back to full and being a good counter to undead, what does higher level Cleric bring to the table that you can't get with a 1 level dip?
obviously everyone brings damage so that isn't it. Bless is a first level spell you can get with a 1 level dip. So what is the Cleric bringing at higher levels? As far as I can tell, lesser restoration, maybe greater restoration and resurrection magic. Other than that what do they bring that you can't get with the current 1 level dip?
I want to note something that I am unsure about. Maybe the issue with level 1 Channel divinity is with Cleric identity. The level 1 channel divinity, as is already noted, provides a solid amount of out of combat healing that helps extend the adventuring day without using spell slots. In addition it provides the turn undead option. The question I think is not "is this too strong for an action" I don't think it is, obviously that isn't an issue especially for full Clerics. The question also shouldn't be, "does this provide to much out of combat healing". I think the real question is "does this 1 level dip step on the toes of the full Cleric identity". In other words. Other than healing people back to full and being a good counter to undead, what does higher level Cleric bring to the table that you can't get with a 1 level dip?
obviously everyone brings damage so that isn't it. Bless is a first level spell you can get with a 1 level dip. So what is the Cleric bringing at higher levels? As far as I can tell, lesser restoration, maybe greater restoration and resurrection magic. Other than that what do they bring that you can't get with the current 1 level dip?
The full Divine Spell List. Only one other class as access to the Divine Spell list and it maxed out at 5th level slots.
I want to note something that I am unsure about. Maybe the issue with level 1 Channel divinity is with Cleric identity. The level 1 channel divinity, as is already noted, provides a solid amount of out of combat healing that helps extend the adventuring day without using spell slots. In addition it provides the turn undead option. The question I think is not "is this too strong for an action" I don't think it is, obviously that isn't an issue especially for full Clerics. The question also shouldn't be, "does this provide to much out of combat healing". I think the real question is "does this 1 level dip step on the toes of the full Cleric identity". In other words. Other than healing people back to full and being a good counter to undead, what does higher level Cleric bring to the table that you can't get with a 1 level dip?
obviously everyone brings damage so that isn't it. Bless is a first level spell you can get with a 1 level dip. So what is the Cleric bringing at higher levels? As far as I can tell, lesser restoration, maybe greater restoration and resurrection magic. Other than that what do they bring that you can't get with the current 1 level dip?
A higher level Cleric in 1D&D can...
Specialize in a sacred role
Cast 2nd level Divine spells
Choose a Divine Domain
Cast 3rd level Divine spells
Cast 4th level Divine spells
Deal better damage with weapons and cantrips
Cast 5th level Divine spells
Call on their deity for aid
Cast 6th level Divine spells
Cast 7th level Divine spells
Cast 8th level Divine spells
Cast 9th level Divine spells
Seems like a fair bit that they bring to the table, that a one-level dip couldn't. Yes, by first level they are effective against undead and can heal. So what? That's a large part of their identity, so it makes sense that they get it early. You might as well argue for Wizards to only get their spellbook halfway through the game. After all, other than having a spellbook and using it to cast spells, what does being a higher level Wizard get you? I just don't agree with your idea that a class shouldn't have an identity by first level.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I want to note something that I am unsure about. Maybe the issue with level 1 Channel divinity is with Cleric identity. The level 1 channel divinity, as is already noted, provides a solid amount of out of combat healing that helps extend the adventuring day without using spell slots. In addition it provides the turn undead option. The question I think is not "is this too strong for an action" I don't think it is, obviously that isn't an issue especially for full Clerics. The question also shouldn't be, "does this provide to much out of combat healing". I think the real question is "does this 1 level dip step on the toes of the full Cleric identity". In other words. Other than healing people back to full and being a good counter to undead, what does higher level Cleric bring to the table that you can't get with a 1 level dip?
obviously everyone brings damage so that isn't it. Bless is a first level spell you can get with a 1 level dip. So what is the Cleric bringing at higher levels? As far as I can tell, lesser restoration, maybe greater restoration and resurrection magic. Other than that what do they bring that you can't get with the current 1 level dip?
A higher level Cleric in 1D&D can...
Specialize in a sacred role
Cast 2nd level Divine spells
Choose a Divine Domain
Cast 3rd level Divine spells
Cast 4th level Divine spells
Deal better damage with weapons and cantrips
Cast 5th level Divine spells
Call on their deity for aid
Cast 6th level Divine spells
Cast 7th level Divine spells
Cast 8th level Divine spells
Cast 9th level Divine spells
Seems like a fair bit that they bring to the table, that a one-level dip couldn't. Yes, by first level they are effective against undead and can heal. So what? That's a large part of their identity, so it makes sense that they get it early. You might as well argue for Wizards to only get their spellbook halfway through the game. After all, other than having a spellbook and using it to cast spells, what does being a higher level Wizard get you? I just don't agree with your idea that a class shouldn't have an identity by first level.
To be clear, I absolutely LOVE and believe that a class should have their identity at level 1. I was GENUENLY curious what the Divine spell list really offers other than damage. I know it offers lesser restoration, greater restoration, more healing options and revivify. The damage options can be replicated with the damage options of other classes, the component cost of greater restoration hurts it as a role for me. And I was genuinely curious as to the other stand out spells on the divine spell list that give the cleric it's identity outside of healing now that you can get so much healing on divine spark. I am WORRIED that the issue with divine spark is that a 1 level cleric dip will step on the toes of the guy that is full cleric and steals 70% of the clerics role away with just a level dip.
The wizard has teleport spells that most spell lists don't have access to, they have battle field control spells I know the druid has a lot of battlefield control spells as well. The wizard has the most versatile spell list with the only thing they DON'T have access to being healing and reviving spells. If the clerics 1 level dip means the wizard can get all the battlefield control, teleporting, blasting and utility magic they ever could need while still performing 70% of the clerics role and identity than the 1 level dip may be too strong.
And to be 100% clear, I don't know that it does. This is a literal IF. I don't know that it does, I am asking those that are more experienced playing cleric what the cleric's role and Identity is and if they are worried that a 1 level dip will allow other classes to take that identity.
I am not worried about a 1 level dip of ranger taking its identity because I know abilities like Roving, otherwise I might be afraid that a 1 level dip in ranger gives too much of the ranger identity to others. And even then, it might. I do think classes should have their identity at level 1, but I don't think a different class should be able to do 70% of a different classes job with just a 1 level dip in that class. Having not played enough I am not sure if that is an issue yet, so I was looking for what others thoughts are.
So what are the stand out spells? what gives the cleric its identity past level 1, not including subclasses. What are the stand out 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th level divine spells that give a cleric an identity.
Forget optimizers. We're talking about players in general, and what would make things fun for the most number of the playerbase, and attract more people to playing a cleric or a healer or whatever.
We can't forget optimizers if we are looking at balance, and this discussion is related to balance. We always have to consider builds being pushed to their utmost potential to make sure the power ceiling and floor are not too far apart. We want to have a game where non-optimizers can play with optimizers without being overshadowed.
Cleric is honestly still in a good spot. It is still really strong and fun to play. The second level choice helps a lot and lets you pick between being a frontline cleric or a backline cleric regardless of your domain, which is a good change.
What I feel is not in a good spot right now is multiclassing. It is difficult and tricky to use for most people; optimizers have no issue using it due to their tendency for system mastery, but for most people. It is not exactly fun to use for most people. Before, it could be said that the power you could get from dips justified the extra difficulty and restrictions on multiclassing, but the dips in 1D&D tend to be weaker now, with subclasses being standardized to 3rd level, which encourages going deeper into a class. However going deeper into a class tends to be discouraged due to delaying feats and key features like extra attack. Easing up on some of these things can make multiclassing a more fun experience for most players.
Lore Bard ends up with 6 Skill proficiencies as you gain another 3 when you take the subclass. So at third level, bars can have more skilk proficiencies than rogue on top of being a fullcaster. So it really does not depend if you weigh skill proficiencies more.
A lot of the complaints on rogue was how it was nerfed. Sneak attack requiring your action prevents synergy with other team mates, namely with abilities that gave party members a reactionary attack or having someone cast Haste on the Rogue. There was nothing wrong with the rogue sneak attacking twice a round; it wasn't outrageous damage when you compared it to what other classes could output and generally doing it required help from other party members, meaning it required teamwork. They should be promoting those types of combat interactions, not removing them. Plus it costed the rogue their reaction, so no uncanny dodge for that round or no shield if they were an arcane trickster.
Optimized Build =/= Entirety of Class
Until you can agree on that point, there's nothing to discuss with you, Mana. Sorry, but I'm done. There's just no way for me to have a meaningful discourse argue with someone who fundamentally sees the game so wildly different.
Optimization becomes incredibly important when we are looking at balancing. And this is a disussion related to balancing is it not? Rogue is very clearly underpowered in its current 1D&D state. Many of the changes seen incredibly backwards and remove the team synergy potential that rogue had in 5E. The sneak attack change also prevents you from doing a sneak attack on a held action which is incredibly backwards when you consider how you can no longer hide behind a corner and sneak attack on a held action on someone passing the corner.
You can be done with me and never reply to me, but that does not matter to me. When I debate I don't aim to change the mind of my opponent. I aim to change the mind of the audience. So as long as I can reply to you and refute your points, I will.
Also, I do not get how people find the cleric dip to be too strong when no one complained about it before, even pre-Hexblade dips. 5E Cleric dips are stronger than 1DnD dips but no one complained about it before; it offered the same proficiencies and while it did not offer channel divinity, it gave subclass features and spells. It was possible to gain heavy armor and martial weapon access through a cleric dip, or gain access to additional skill proficiencies; even expertise for knowledge skills was there for the taking (which synergized amazingly with Wizard for scribing spells). Also, remember how strong 5e Guidance was. So it seems strange that people are complaining about the cleric dip now.
How many people did you ask in terms of their opinions on dips like Cleric, Artificer, Hexblade, etc?
Especially after Tasha's introduced even stronger Cleric dips like Peace Cleric.
That doesn't really matter anymore because subclasses are moved to 3rd level. Plus, I am saying that cleric dips pre-xanathar so before Hexblade, Peace, Twilight, etc. You didn't see any complaints on people dipping into cleric back them and gaining a subclass is generally going to be more useful. I regularly checked subreddits, discord servers, and listened on to discussions at locals and clubs at my university at the time.
I want to note something that I am unsure about. Maybe the issue with level 1 Channel divinity is with Cleric identity. The level 1 channel divinity, as is already noted, provides a solid amount of out of combat healing that helps extend the adventuring day without using spell slots. In addition it provides the turn undead option. The question I think is not "is this too strong for an action" I don't think it is, obviously that isn't an issue especially for full Clerics. The question also shouldn't be, "does this provide to much out of combat healing". I think the real question is "does this 1 level dip step on the toes of the full Cleric identity". In other words. Other than healing people back to full and being a good counter to undead, what does higher level Cleric bring to the table that you can't get with a 1 level dip?
obviously everyone brings damage so that isn't it. Bless is a first level spell you can get with a 1 level dip. So what is the Cleric bringing at higher levels? As far as I can tell, lesser restoration, maybe greater restoration and resurrection magic. Other than that what do they bring that you can't get with the current 1 level dip?
A higher level Cleric in 1D&D can...
Specialize in a sacred role
Cast 2nd level Divine spells
Choose a Divine Domain
Cast 3rd level Divine spells
Cast 4th level Divine spells
Deal better damage with weapons and cantrips
Cast 5th level Divine spells
Call on their deity for aid
Cast 6th level Divine spells
Cast 7th level Divine spells
Cast 8th level Divine spells
Cast 9th level Divine spells
Seems like a fair bit that they bring to the table, that a one-level dip couldn't. Yes, by first level they are effective against undead and can heal. So what? That's a large part of their identity, so it makes sense that they get it early. You might as well argue for Wizards to only get their spellbook halfway through the game. After all, other than having a spellbook and using it to cast spells, what does being a higher level Wizard get you? I just don't agree with your idea that a class shouldn't have an identity by first level.
To be clear, I absolutely LOVE and believe that a class should have their identity at level 1. I was GENUENLY curious what the Divine spell list really offers other than damage. I know it offers lesser restoration, greater restoration, more healing options and revivify. The damage options can be replicated with the damage options of other classes, the component cost of greater restoration hurts it as a role for me. And I was genuinely curious as to the other stand out spells on the divine spell list that give the cleric it's identity outside of healing now that you can get so much healing on divine spark. I am WORRIED that the issue with divine spark is that a 1 level cleric dip will step on the toes of the guy that is full cleric and steals 70% of the clerics role away with just a level dip.
The wizard has teleport spells that most spell lists don't have access to, they have battle field control spells I know the druid has a lot of battlefield control spells as well. The wizard has the most versatile spell list with the only thing they DON'T have access to being healing and reviving spells. If the clerics 1 level dip means the wizard can get all the battlefield control, teleporting, blasting and utility magic they ever could need while still performing 70% of the clerics role and identity than the 1 level dip may be too strong.
And to be 100% clear, I don't know that it does. This is a literal IF. I don't know that it does, I am asking those that are more experienced playing cleric what the cleric's role and Identity is and if they are worried that a 1 level dip will allow other classes to take that identity.
I am not worried about a 1 level dip of ranger taking its identity because I know abilities like Roving, otherwise I might be afraid that a 1 level dip in ranger gives too much of the ranger identity to others. And even then, it might. I do think classes should have their identity at level 1, but I don't think a different class should be able to do 70% of a different classes job with just a 1 level dip in that class. Having not played enough I am not sure if that is an issue yet, so I was looking for what others thoughts are.
So what are the stand out spells? what gives the cleric its identity past level 1, not including subclasses. What are the stand out 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th level divine spells that give a cleric an identity.
For higher level cleric spells, spiritual weapon was a notable spell though with the nerf it recieved it probably becomes less notable if not ignorable. Spirit Guardians is another notable spell. Cleric is more known for the resurrection spells like revify, raise dead, and resurrection, even though other classes like bard can also get them; that may also be mitigated by bard having magical secrets so people may expect bard to be a bit of a wild card, thus preserving some of those spells as more of a cleric identity. Paladins can get revify and raise dead as well, but paladins are often seen to be closely related to clerics and as half casters get them much later.
Holy Weapon is another standout spell; paladins get it as well, but again at a much later level.
I think it is much less about the specific spells that clerics only get but the specific mixture of spells. Plus, with how multiclassing interacts with spell progression, there is a reason why you don't often see much more than dips with fullcasters, exceptions being sorlock and sorcadin.
Technically, speaking, druids can be as potent of a healer as a cleric. Bard as well. However, cleric comes in mind for most people when they think of healers. Don't forget that Divine Soul Sorcerers also have access to the cleric spell list, but cleric still maintained its identity in 5e.
I want to note something that I am unsure about. Maybe the issue with level 1 Channel divinity is with Cleric identity. The level 1 channel divinity, as is already noted, provides a solid amount of out of combat healing that helps extend the adventuring day without using spell slots. In addition it provides the turn undead option. The question I think is not "is this too strong for an action" I don't think it is, obviously that isn't an issue especially for full Clerics. The question also shouldn't be, "does this provide to much out of combat healing". I think the real question is "does this 1 level dip step on the toes of the full Cleric identity". In other words. Other than healing people back to full and being a good counter to undead, what does higher level Cleric bring to the table that you can't get with a 1 level dip?
obviously everyone brings damage so that isn't it. Bless is a first level spell you can get with a 1 level dip. So what is the Cleric bringing at higher levels? As far as I can tell, lesser restoration, maybe greater restoration and resurrection magic. Other than that what do they bring that you can't get with the current 1 level dip?
A higher level Cleric in 1D&D can...
Specialize in a sacred role
Cast 2nd level Divine spells
Choose a Divine Domain
Cast 3rd level Divine spells
Cast 4th level Divine spells
Deal better damage with weapons and cantrips
Cast 5th level Divine spells
Call on their deity for aid
Cast 6th level Divine spells
Cast 7th level Divine spells
Cast 8th level Divine spells
Cast 9th level Divine spells
Seems like a fair bit that they bring to the table, that a one-level dip couldn't. Yes, by first level they are effective against undead and can heal. So what? That's a large part of their identity, so it makes sense that they get it early. You might as well argue for Wizards to only get their spellbook halfway through the game. After all, other than having a spellbook and using it to cast spells, what does being a higher level Wizard get you? I just don't agree with your idea that a class shouldn't have an identity by first level.
To be clear, I absolutely LOVE and believe that a class should have their identity at level 1. I was GENUENLY curious what the Divine spell list really offers other than damage. I know it offers lesser restoration, greater restoration, more healing options and revivify. The damage options can be replicated with the damage options of other classes, the component cost of greater restoration hurts it as a role for me. And I was genuinely curious as to the other stand out spells on the divine spell list that give the cleric it's identity outside of healing now that you can get so much healing on divine spark. I am WORRIED that the issue with divine spark is that a 1 level cleric dip will step on the toes of the guy that is full cleric and steals 70% of the clerics role away with just a level dip.
The wizard has teleport spells that most spell lists don't have access to, they have battle field control spells I know the druid has a lot of battlefield control spells as well. The wizard has the most versatile spell list with the only thing they DON'T have access to being healing and reviving spells. If the clerics 1 level dip means the wizard can get all the battlefield control, teleporting, blasting and utility magic they ever could need while still performing 70% of the clerics role and identity than the 1 level dip may be too strong.
And to be 100% clear, I don't know that it does. This is a literal IF. I don't know that it does, I am asking those that are more experienced playing cleric what the cleric's role and Identity is and if they are worried that a 1 level dip will allow other classes to take that identity.
I am not worried about a 1 level dip of ranger taking its identity because I know abilities like Roving, otherwise I might be afraid that a 1 level dip in ranger gives too much of the ranger identity to others. And even then, it might. I do think classes should have their identity at level 1, but I don't think a different class should be able to do 70% of a different classes job with just a 1 level dip in that class. Having not played enough I am not sure if that is an issue yet, so I was looking for what others thoughts are.
So what are the stand out spells? what gives the cleric its identity past level 1, not including subclasses. What are the stand out 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th level divine spells that give a cleric an identity.
I think you bring up a good point. Sure clerics have 2nd-9th level spells that a 1 level dip doesn’t give you but what are some of the iconic cleric spells? Spiritual Weapon (damage just like everyone else can do), Spirit Guardians (damage AOE and some control, but other spellcasters can do similar) Lesser/Greater Restoration, Heal, Raise Dead (good spells that some others share, some not. But is part of the Cleric identity that is somewhat unique). But what else that would separate a full Cleric vs Cleric 1/Wizard X or Cleric 1/Fighter X or Paladin X?
Edit: I think CD as proposed in the UA is fine if scaled on Cleric level (at least the number of d8’s, but would be fine with number of uses on Cleric level as well)
I want to note something that I am unsure about. Maybe the issue with level 1 Channel divinity is with Cleric identity. The level 1 channel divinity, as is already noted, provides a solid amount of out of combat healing that helps extend the adventuring day without using spell slots. In addition it provides the turn undead option. The question I think is not "is this too strong for an action" I don't think it is, obviously that isn't an issue especially for full Clerics. The question also shouldn't be, "does this provide to much out of combat healing". I think the real question is "does this 1 level dip step on the toes of the full Cleric identity". In other words. Other than healing people back to full and being a good counter to undead, what does higher level Cleric bring to the table that you can't get with a 1 level dip?
obviously everyone brings damage so that isn't it. Bless is a first level spell you can get with a 1 level dip. So what is the Cleric bringing at higher levels? As far as I can tell, lesser restoration, maybe greater restoration and resurrection magic. Other than that what do they bring that you can't get with the current 1 level dip?
A higher level Cleric in 1D&D can...
Specialize in a sacred role
Cast 2nd level Divine spells
Choose a Divine Domain
Cast 3rd level Divine spells
Cast 4th level Divine spells
Deal better damage with weapons and cantrips
Cast 5th level Divine spells
Call on their deity for aid
Cast 6th level Divine spells
Cast 7th level Divine spells
Cast 8th level Divine spells
Cast 9th level Divine spells
Seems like a fair bit that they bring to the table, that a one-level dip couldn't. Yes, by first level they are effective against undead and can heal. So what? That's a large part of their identity, so it makes sense that they get it early. You might as well argue for Wizards to only get their spellbook halfway through the game. After all, other than having a spellbook and using it to cast spells, what does being a higher level Wizard get you? I just don't agree with your idea that a class shouldn't have an identity by first level.
To be clear, I absolutely LOVE and believe that a class should have their identity at level 1. I was GENUENLY curious what the Divine spell list really offers other than damage. I know it offers lesser restoration, greater restoration, more healing options and revivify. The damage options can be replicated with the damage options of other classes, the component cost of greater restoration hurts it as a role for me. And I was genuinely curious as to the other stand out spells on the divine spell list that give the cleric it's identity outside of healing now that you can get so much healing on divine spark. I am WORRIED that the issue with divine spark is that a 1 level cleric dip will step on the toes of the guy that is full cleric and steals 70% of the clerics role away with just a level dip.
The wizard has teleport spells that most spell lists don't have access to, they have battle field control spells I know the druid has a lot of battlefield control spells as well. The wizard has the most versatile spell list with the only thing they DON'T have access to being healing and reviving spells. If the clerics 1 level dip means the wizard can get all the battlefield control, teleporting, blasting and utility magic they ever could need while still performing 70% of the clerics role and identity than the 1 level dip may be too strong.
And to be 100% clear, I don't know that it does. This is a literal IF. I don't know that it does, I am asking those that are more experienced playing cleric what the cleric's role and Identity is and if they are worried that a 1 level dip will allow other classes to take that identity.
I am not worried about a 1 level dip of ranger taking its identity because I know abilities like Roving, otherwise I might be afraid that a 1 level dip in ranger gives too much of the ranger identity to others. And even then, it might. I do think classes should have their identity at level 1, but I don't think a different class should be able to do 70% of a different classes job with just a 1 level dip in that class. Having not played enough I am not sure if that is an issue yet, so I was looking for what others thoughts are.
So what are the stand out spells? what gives the cleric its identity past level 1, not including subclasses. What are the stand out 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th level divine spells that give a cleric an identity.
I think you bring up a good point. Sure clerics have 2nd-9th level spells that a 1 level dip doesn’t give you but what are some of the iconic cleric spells? Spiritual Weapon (damage just like everyone else can do), Spirit Guardians (damage AOE and some control, but other spellcasters can do similar) Lesser/Greater Restoration, Heal, Raise Dead (good spells that some others share, some not. But is part of the Cleric identity that is somewhat unique). But what else that would separate a full Cleric vs Cleric 1/Wizard X or Cleric 1/Fighter X or Paladin X?
Edit: I think CD as proposed in the UA is fine if scaled on Cleric level (at least the number of d8’s, but would be fine with number of uses on Cleric level as well)
I think what seperates clerics the most from other classes are their features and the theme/flavor of their spells. If we are looking at just mechanics, a lot of casters are going to look similar because they all have ways to do damage and crowd control and most have ways of doing some healing. You can do a lot of the same things a cleric can do as a druid for example; in different ways and with different spells perhaps, but you can still fulfill the same roles.
Forget optimizers. We're talking about players in general, and what would make things fun for the most number of the playerbase, and attract more people to playing a cleric or a healer or whatever.
We can't forget optimizers if we are looking at balance, and this discussion is related to balance. We always have to consider builds being pushed to their utmost potential to make sure the power ceiling and floor are not too far apart. We want to have a game where non-optimizers can play with optimizers without being overshadowed.
Cleric is honestly still in a good spot. It is still really strong and fun to play. The second level choice helps a lot and lets you pick between being a frontline cleric or a backline cleric regardless of your domain, which is a good change.
What I feel is not in a good spot right now is multiclassing. It is difficult and tricky to use for most people; optimizers have no issue using it due to their tendency for system mastery, but for most people. It is not exactly fun to use for most people. Before, it could be said that the power you could get from dips justified the extra difficulty and restrictions on multiclassing, but the dips in 1D&D tend to be weaker now, with subclasses being standardized to 3rd level, which encourages going deeper into a class. However going deeper into a class tends to be discouraged due to delaying feats and key features like extra attack. Easing up on some of these things can make multiclassing a more fun experience for most players.
Lore Bard ends up with 6 Skill proficiencies as you gain another 3 when you take the subclass. So at third level, bars can have more skilk proficiencies than rogue on top of being a fullcaster. So it really does not depend if you weigh skill proficiencies more.
A lot of the complaints on rogue was how it was nerfed. Sneak attack requiring your action prevents synergy with other team mates, namely with abilities that gave party members a reactionary attack or having someone cast Haste on the Rogue. There was nothing wrong with the rogue sneak attacking twice a round; it wasn't outrageous damage when you compared it to what other classes could output and generally doing it required help from other party members, meaning it required teamwork. They should be promoting those types of combat interactions, not removing them. Plus it costed the rogue their reaction, so no uncanny dodge for that round or no shield if they were an arcane trickster.
Optimized Build =/= Entirety of Class
Until you can agree on that point, there's nothing to discuss with you, Mana. Sorry, but I'm done. There's just no way for me to have a meaningful discourse argue with someone who fundamentally sees the game so wildly different.
Optimization becomes incredibly important when we are looking at balancing. And this is a disussion related to balancing is it not? Rogue is very clearly underpowered in its current 1D&D state. Many of the changes seen incredibly backwards and remove the team synergy potential that rogue had in 5E. The sneak attack change also prevents you from doing a sneak attack on a held action which is incredibly backwards when you consider how you can no longer hide behind a corner and sneak attack on a held action on someone passing the corner.
You can be done with me and never reply to me, but that does not matter to me. When I debate I don't aim to change the mind of my opponent. I aim to change the mind of the audience. So as long as I can reply to you and refute your points, I will.
Also, I do not get how people find the cleric dip to be too strong when no one complained about it before, even pre-Hexblade dips. 5E Cleric dips are stronger than 1DnD dips but no one complained about it before; it offered the same proficiencies and while it did not offer channel divinity, it gave subclass features and spells. It was possible to gain heavy armor and martial weapon access through a cleric dip, or gain access to additional skill proficiencies; even expertise for knowledge skills was there for the taking (which synergized amazingly with Wizard for scribing spells). Also, remember how strong 5e Guidance was. So it seems strange that people are complaining about the cleric dip now.
How many people did you ask in terms of their opinions on dips like Cleric, Artificer, Hexblade, etc?
Especially after Tasha's introduced even stronger Cleric dips like Peace Cleric.
That doesn't really matter anymore because subclasses are moved to 3rd level. Plus, I am saying that cleric dips pre-xanathar so before Hexblade, Peace, Twilight, etc. You didn't see any complaints on people dipping into cleric back them and gaining a subclass is generally going to be more useful. I regularly checked subreddits, discord servers, and listened on to discussions at locals and clubs at my university at the time.
I want to note something that I am unsure about. Maybe the issue with level 1 Channel divinity is with Cleric identity. The level 1 channel divinity, as is already noted, provides a solid amount of out of combat healing that helps extend the adventuring day without using spell slots. In addition it provides the turn undead option. The question I think is not "is this too strong for an action" I don't think it is, obviously that isn't an issue especially for full Clerics. The question also shouldn't be, "does this provide to much out of combat healing". I think the real question is "does this 1 level dip step on the toes of the full Cleric identity". In other words. Other than healing people back to full and being a good counter to undead, what does higher level Cleric bring to the table that you can't get with a 1 level dip?
obviously everyone brings damage so that isn't it. Bless is a first level spell you can get with a 1 level dip. So what is the Cleric bringing at higher levels? As far as I can tell, lesser restoration, maybe greater restoration and resurrection magic. Other than that what do they bring that you can't get with the current 1 level dip?
A higher level Cleric in 1D&D can...
Specialize in a sacred role
Cast 2nd level Divine spells
Choose a Divine Domain
Cast 3rd level Divine spells
Cast 4th level Divine spells
Deal better damage with weapons and cantrips
Cast 5th level Divine spells
Call on their deity for aid
Cast 6th level Divine spells
Cast 7th level Divine spells
Cast 8th level Divine spells
Cast 9th level Divine spells
Seems like a fair bit that they bring to the table, that a one-level dip couldn't. Yes, by first level they are effective against undead and can heal. So what? That's a large part of their identity, so it makes sense that they get it early. You might as well argue for Wizards to only get their spellbook halfway through the game. After all, other than having a spellbook and using it to cast spells, what does being a higher level Wizard get you? I just don't agree with your idea that a class shouldn't have an identity by first level.
To be clear, I absolutely LOVE and believe that a class should have their identity at level 1. I was GENUENLY curious what the Divine spell list really offers other than damage. I know it offers lesser restoration, greater restoration, more healing options and revivify. The damage options can be replicated with the damage options of other classes, the component cost of greater restoration hurts it as a role for me. And I was genuinely curious as to the other stand out spells on the divine spell list that give the cleric it's identity outside of healing now that you can get so much healing on divine spark. I am WORRIED that the issue with divine spark is that a 1 level cleric dip will step on the toes of the guy that is full cleric and steals 70% of the clerics role away with just a level dip.
The wizard has teleport spells that most spell lists don't have access to, they have battle field control spells I know the druid has a lot of battlefield control spells as well. The wizard has the most versatile spell list with the only thing they DON'T have access to being healing and reviving spells. If the clerics 1 level dip means the wizard can get all the battlefield control, teleporting, blasting and utility magic they ever could need while still performing 70% of the clerics role and identity than the 1 level dip may be too strong.
And to be 100% clear, I don't know that it does. This is a literal IF. I don't know that it does, I am asking those that are more experienced playing cleric what the cleric's role and Identity is and if they are worried that a 1 level dip will allow other classes to take that identity.
I am not worried about a 1 level dip of ranger taking its identity because I know abilities like Roving, otherwise I might be afraid that a 1 level dip in ranger gives too much of the ranger identity to others. And even then, it might. I do think classes should have their identity at level 1, but I don't think a different class should be able to do 70% of a different classes job with just a 1 level dip in that class. Having not played enough I am not sure if that is an issue yet, so I was looking for what others thoughts are.
So what are the stand out spells? what gives the cleric its identity past level 1, not including subclasses. What are the stand out 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th level divine spells that give a cleric an identity.
For higher level cleric spells, spiritual weapon was a notable spell though with the nerf it recieved it probably becomes less notable if not ignorable. Spirit Guardians is another notable spell. Cleric is more known for the resurrection spells like revify, raise dead, and resurrection, even though other classes like bard can also get them; that may also be mitigated by bard having magical secrets so people may expect bard to be a bit of a wild card, thus preserving some of those spells as more of a cleric identity. Paladins can get revify and raise dead as well, but paladins are often seen to be closely related to clerics and as half casters get them much later.
Holy Weapon is another standout spell; paladins get it as well, but again at a much later level.
I think it is much less about the specific spells that clerics only get but the specific mixture of spells. Plus, with how multiclassing interacts with spell progression, there is a reason why you don't often see much more than dips with fullcasters, exceptions being sorlock and sorcadin.
Technically, speaking, druids can be as potent of a healer as a cleric. Bard as well. However, cleric comes in mind for most people when they think of healers. Don't forget that Divine Soul Sorcerers also have access to the cleric spell list, but cleric still maintained its identity in 5e.
Lets examine the cleric vs divine sorc identity in 5e and things that are vanishing from that difference in one dnd.
1. Channel divinity. Before you needed 2 levels and got turn undead and your subclass specific channel divinity and only 1 use per short rest, which for some groups effectively meant once or twice a day. That is now PB and the healing you used to need spell slots and higher level spells for is now possible with this feature at level 1. Lowering the value of those higher level spells.
2. Prepared spell casting. In 5e the cleric cam prepare way more spells than a sorcerer could know + their domain spells. In one dnd everyone seems to be getting the same spell preparations. So the only difference in spell prep now is domain spell preps. The gap is no where near as large.
5e higher level spells are needed for good healing. In one dnd they aren't because of divine spark. In 5e Prepared spell casting is a huge boon to your power. In one dnd everyone has prepared spell casting.
Based on the info provided so far, resurrection and restoration spells are what is holding together the cleric identity at higher levels right now.
(Druid is different currently because healing is only 1 job for both currently. Druids get wildshape clerics get channel divinity and metal armor. Druids get healing and battlefield control, clerics get healing and smiting spells)
One dnd I expect they will try to separate them more, making the cleric better at healing because divine spark, but then you take that 1 level dip and you dont need some of the higher level spells anymore.
The classes as a whole, not just cleric, are becoming more homogenized.
I want to note something that I am unsure about. Maybe the issue with level 1 Channel divinity is with Cleric identity. The level 1 channel divinity, as is already noted, provides a solid amount of out of combat healing that helps extend the adventuring day without using spell slots. In addition it provides the turn undead option. The question I think is not "is this too strong for an action" I don't think it is, obviously that isn't an issue especially for full Clerics. The question also shouldn't be, "does this provide to much out of combat healing". I think the real question is "does this 1 level dip step on the toes of the full Cleric identity". In other words. Other than healing people back to full and being a good counter to undead, what does higher level Cleric bring to the table that you can't get with a 1 level dip?
obviously everyone brings damage so that isn't it. Bless is a first level spell you can get with a 1 level dip. So what is the Cleric bringing at higher levels? As far as I can tell, lesser restoration, maybe greater restoration and resurrection magic. Other than that what do they bring that you can't get with the current 1 level dip?
A higher level Cleric in 1D&D can...
Specialize in a sacred role
Cast 2nd level Divine spells
Choose a Divine Domain
Cast 3rd level Divine spells
Cast 4th level Divine spells
Deal better damage with weapons and cantrips
Cast 5th level Divine spells
Call on their deity for aid
Cast 6th level Divine spells
Cast 7th level Divine spells
Cast 8th level Divine spells
Cast 9th level Divine spells
Seems like a fair bit that they bring to the table, that a one-level dip couldn't. Yes, by first level they are effective against undead and can heal. So what? That's a large part of their identity, so it makes sense that they get it early. You might as well argue for Wizards to only get their spellbook halfway through the game. After all, other than having a spellbook and using it to cast spells, what does being a higher level Wizard get you? I just don't agree with your idea that a class shouldn't have an identity by first level.
To be clear, I absolutely LOVE and believe that a class should have their identity at level 1. I was GENUENLY curious what the Divine spell list really offers other than damage. I know it offers lesser restoration, greater restoration, more healing options and revivify. The damage options can be replicated with the damage options of other classes, the component cost of greater restoration hurts it as a role for me. And I was genuinely curious as to the other stand out spells on the divine spell list that give the cleric it's identity outside of healing now that you can get so much healing on divine spark. I am WORRIED that the issue with divine spark is that a 1 level cleric dip will step on the toes of the guy that is full cleric and steals 70% of the clerics role away with just a level dip.
The wizard has teleport spells that most spell lists don't have access to, they have battle field control spells I know the druid has a lot of battlefield control spells as well. The wizard has the most versatile spell list with the only thing they DON'T have access to being healing and reviving spells. If the clerics 1 level dip means the wizard can get all the battlefield control, teleporting, blasting and utility magic they ever could need while still performing 70% of the clerics role and identity than the 1 level dip may be too strong.
And to be 100% clear, I don't know that it does. This is a literal IF. I don't know that it does, I am asking those that are more experienced playing cleric what the cleric's role and Identity is and if they are worried that a 1 level dip will allow other classes to take that identity.
I am not worried about a 1 level dip of ranger taking its identity because I know abilities like Roving, otherwise I might be afraid that a 1 level dip in ranger gives too much of the ranger identity to others. And even then, it might. I do think classes should have their identity at level 1, but I don't think a different class should be able to do 70% of a different classes job with just a 1 level dip in that class. Having not played enough I am not sure if that is an issue yet, so I was looking for what others thoughts are.
So what are the stand out spells? what gives the cleric its identity past level 1, not including subclasses. What are the stand out 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th level divine spells that give a cleric an identity.
I think you bring up a good point. Sure clerics have 2nd-9th level spells that a 1 level dip doesn’t give you but what are some of the iconic cleric spells? Spiritual Weapon (damage just like everyone else can do), Spirit Guardians (damage AOE and some control, but other spellcasters can do similar) Lesser/Greater Restoration, Heal, Raise Dead (good spells that some others share, some not. But is part of the Cleric identity that is somewhat unique). But what else that would separate a full Cleric vs Cleric 1/Wizard X or Cleric 1/Fighter X or Paladin X?
Edit: I think CD as proposed in the UA is fine if scaled on Cleric level (at least the number of d8’s, but would be fine with number of uses on Cleric level as well)
I think what seperates clerics the most from other classes are their features and the theme/flavor of their spells. If we are looking at just mechanics, a lot of casters are going to look similar because they all have ways to do damage and crowd control and most have ways of doing some healing. You can do a lot of the same things a cleric can do as a druid for example; in different ways and with different spells perhaps, but you can still fulfill the same roles.
You have to understand you are specifically comparing 2 full casters in the same class group. Yes they are going to have similar roles with some key differences. The biggest being CD vs WS.
What I am talking about is a warrior, expert or mage stealing 70% of the priest group identity with a 1 level dip into said priest group.
Think of all the things you think of as iconic for wizard. Now imagine being able to do 70% of what they do with a 1 level dip into them as a ranger. Doing almost their entire job in the mid game with a 1 level dip without sacrificing much of your main job at all. That is an issue.
I think there is something to what Aquilontune is saying. It might be part of what's bothering me about Channel Divinity on some subconscious level. It's kind of like if a level 1 Wizard got a feature that gave them PB uses per day, and you got to choose between doing PBxd8 fire damage, teleport, or dispel magic. It's not everything a wizard can do, but it is a lot of their whole theme. And the Wizard1/ Fighter 19 will get to do that part just as well as the Wizard 20.
I want to note something that I am unsure about. Maybe the issue with level 1 Channel divinity is with Cleric identity. The level 1 channel divinity, as is already noted, provides a solid amount of out of combat healing that helps extend the adventuring day without using spell slots. In addition it provides the turn undead option. The question I think is not "is this too strong for an action" I don't think it is, obviously that isn't an issue especially for full Clerics. The question also shouldn't be, "does this provide to much out of combat healing". I think the real question is "does this 1 level dip step on the toes of the full Cleric identity". In other words. Other than healing people back to full and being a good counter to undead, what does higher level Cleric bring to the table that you can't get with a 1 level dip?
obviously everyone brings damage so that isn't it. Bless is a first level spell you can get with a 1 level dip. So what is the Cleric bringing at higher levels? As far as I can tell, lesser restoration, maybe greater restoration and resurrection magic. Other than that what do they bring that you can't get with the current 1 level dip?
A higher level Cleric in 1D&D can...
Specialize in a sacred role
Cast 2nd level Divine spells
Choose a Divine Domain
Cast 3rd level Divine spells
Cast 4th level Divine spells
Deal better damage with weapons and cantrips
Cast 5th level Divine spells
Call on their deity for aid
Cast 6th level Divine spells
Cast 7th level Divine spells
Cast 8th level Divine spells
Cast 9th level Divine spells
Seems like a fair bit that they bring to the table, that a one-level dip couldn't. Yes, by first level they are effective against undead and can heal. So what? That's a large part of their identity, so it makes sense that they get it early. You might as well argue for Wizards to only get their spellbook halfway through the game. After all, other than having a spellbook and using it to cast spells, what does being a higher level Wizard get you? I just don't agree with your idea that a class shouldn't have an identity by first level.
To be clear, I absolutely LOVE and believe that a class should have their identity at level 1. I was GENUENLY curious what the Divine spell list really offers other than damage. I know it offers lesser restoration, greater restoration, more healing options and revivify. The damage options can be replicated with the damage options of other classes, the component cost of greater restoration hurts it as a role for me. And I was genuinely curious as to the other stand out spells on the divine spell list that give the cleric it's identity outside of healing now that you can get so much healing on divine spark. I am WORRIED that the issue with divine spark is that a 1 level cleric dip will step on the toes of the guy that is full cleric and steals 70% of the clerics role away with just a level dip.
The wizard has teleport spells that most spell lists don't have access to, they have battle field control spells I know the druid has a lot of battlefield control spells as well. The wizard has the most versatile spell list with the only thing they DON'T have access to being healing and reviving spells. If the clerics 1 level dip means the wizard can get all the battlefield control, teleporting, blasting and utility magic they ever could need while still performing 70% of the clerics role and identity than the 1 level dip may be too strong.
And to be 100% clear, I don't know that it does. This is a literal IF. I don't know that it does, I am asking those that are more experienced playing cleric what the cleric's role and Identity is and if they are worried that a 1 level dip will allow other classes to take that identity.
I am not worried about a 1 level dip of ranger taking its identity because I know abilities like Roving, otherwise I might be afraid that a 1 level dip in ranger gives too much of the ranger identity to others. And even then, it might. I do think classes should have their identity at level 1, but I don't think a different class should be able to do 70% of a different classes job with just a 1 level dip in that class. Having not played enough I am not sure if that is an issue yet, so I was looking for what others thoughts are.
So what are the stand out spells? what gives the cleric its identity past level 1, not including subclasses. What are the stand out 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th level divine spells that give a cleric an identity.
I think you bring up a good point. Sure clerics have 2nd-9th level spells that a 1 level dip doesn’t give you but what are some of the iconic cleric spells? Spiritual Weapon (damage just like everyone else can do), Spirit Guardians (damage AOE and some control, but other spellcasters can do similar) Lesser/Greater Restoration, Heal, Raise Dead (good spells that some others share, some not. But is part of the Cleric identity that is somewhat unique). But what else that would separate a full Cleric vs Cleric 1/Wizard X or Cleric 1/Fighter X or Paladin X?
Edit: I think CD as proposed in the UA is fine if scaled on Cleric level (at least the number of d8’s, but would be fine with number of uses on Cleric level as well)
I think what seperates clerics the most from other classes are their features and the theme/flavor of their spells. If we are looking at just mechanics, a lot of casters are going to look similar because they all have ways to do damage and crowd control and most have ways of doing some healing. You can do a lot of the same things a cleric can do as a druid for example; in different ways and with different spells perhaps, but you can still fulfill the same roles.
You have to understand you are specifically comparing 2 full casters in the same class group. Yes they are going to have similar roles with some key differences. The biggest being CD vs WS.
What I am talking about is a warrior, expert or mage stealing 70% of the priest group identity with a 1 level dip into said priest group.
Think of all the things you think of as iconic for wizard. Now imagine being able to do 70% of what they do with a 1 level dip into them as a ranger. Doing almost their entire job in the mid game with a 1 level dip without sacrificing much of your main job at all. That is an issue.
Bard is in a different class group and also can heal, and poach high level healing spells from cleric.
Also, healing should not be the only identity of cleric. Cleric is a caster that is able to walk into a brawl and duke it out with the martials and a number of spells benefit from that., such as Spirit Guardians. Someone earlier said that other classes can do what Spirit Guardians can do, but Spirit Guardians is noted to be one of the best damaging spells in the game on top of its crowd control. It is a very popular spell to poach as a Sorcadin if they take Divine Soul Sorcerer.
The issue I think is that people perceive Cleric as a healer too much. We shouldn't be seeing the channel divinity healing as essentially being 70% or even a significant portion of the identity cleric. I think I don't see a problem with the Channel Divinity because one, I don't see it as an amazing ability, and two, I see Clerics as more than healers. I personally rather see the combat clerics that don't focus as much on healing and instead leverage their other damage and control spells in combat with healing as secondary, being used sparingly since healing generally does not keep up with damage in combat.
I've done multiple Cleric 20's and Cleric 1/Wizard 19's in 5e, and I always found that I played them different. Sure the mechanical goal is pretty similar, but enough of the later spells are different that I approach them in different ways. Even Arcana Cleric 20 felt very different from a Cleric 1/Wizard X for me. I stayed in the back more as a Cleric 1/Wizard X as while yes I did have the defenses to be on the frontlines with medium armor, shields, and the Shield spell, most of my features and spells allowed me to stay at a distance, especially with spells like Misty Step to help me keep my distance, while as a straight Cleric, I had spells like Spirit Guardians that made me want to move in closer. Sure I had ranged spells and could play more of a backline Cleric, but I found myself having a lot more incentive to get in close as a Cleric. Hell, with Arcana Cleric, I poached Greenflame Blade so I could use it with Potent Spellcasting for a more melee orientated cleric.
I think there is something to what Aquilontune is saying. It might be part of what's bothering me about Channel Divinity on some subconscious level. It's kind of like if a level 1 Wizard got a feature that gave them PB uses per day, and you got to choose between doing PBxd8 fire damage, teleport, or dispel magic. It's not everything a wizard can do, but it is a lot of their whole theme. And the Wizard1/ Fighter 19 will get to do that part just as well as the Wizard 20.
Just to give another example using ranger 5 cleric 1. I have my damage, not worried about that. Cleric is giving me the healing with CD and giving me turn undead with it's one level dip. I am also getting 2 divine cantrips, guidance and thaumaturge, not much else needed. And i get 2 first level divine spells, bless and sanctuary. Some of the most iconic, powerful and unique cleric spells are first level spells. I still have lesser restoration because primal list. I missing out on revivify, but that costs 300 diamond to cast and is intentionally super situational, probably prefer to just get a scroll for this. What am I missing? Did I just take a majority of the cleric role while not having to give up my role as a ranger as well? What job does cleric have that I am not fulfilling here?
Only thing I could think that I am missing is dispel magic and remove curse. Is that it? Or am I missing something?
Edit: So, from what I am hearing, it is just spirit gaurdians giving a different flavor of damage and that is it.
I think there is something to what Aquilontune is saying. It might be part of what's bothering me about Channel Divinity on some subconscious level. It's kind of like if a level 1 Wizard got a feature that gave them PB uses per day, and you got to choose between doing PBxd8 fire damage, teleport, or dispel magic. It's not everything a wizard can do, but it is a lot of their whole theme. And the Wizard1/ Fighter 19 will get to do that part just as well as the Wizard 20.
Just to give another example using ranger 5 cleric 1. I have my damage, not worried about that. Cleric is giving me the healing with CD and giving me turn undead with it's one level dip. I am also getting 2 divine cantrips, guidance and thaumaturge, not much else needed. And i get 2 first level divine spells, bless and sanctuary. Some of the most iconic, powerful and unique cleric spells are first level spells. I still have lesser restoration because primal list. I missing out on revivify, but that costs 300 diamond to cast and is intentionally super situational, probably prefer to just get a scroll for this. What am I missing? Did I just take a majority of the cleric role while not having to give up my role as a ranger as well? What job does cleric have that I am not fulfilling here?
Only thing I could think that I am missing is dispel magic and remove curse. Is that it? Or am I missing something?
Fullcaster versatility. Aside from your spell progression being about half the speed of a fullcaster and I wouldn't say your damage is fully comparable either (Spirit Guardians is really a good spell for a reason). There are still a host of spells that Clerics have that Ranger does not. We also only seen the class features for one domain. There are still other domains that make up a huge part of Cleric's Identity. Remember the Arcana Cleric that I mentioned before, they have a neat feature called Spellbreaker which is great for ending spells cast on your allies, especially when combined with Healing Word to do it as a bonus action. War Cleric had War God's Blessing, Knowledge Cleric had Read Thoughts and expertise to Knowledge skills, Peace and Twilight Cleric had their often complained about features, and so on. A lot of the identity of Cleric is within the domains, which make sense considering how tied to their deities they are, and to get that identity, you have to take more than a single level in cleric.
I would be thrilled if that happens.
It's a fair point for sure. I don't think a Bard needs to be a full healer. I think Bardic Inspiration is pretty good as it is. It has a good role of its own.
I like Channel Divinity having more options right from the start. I honestly really don't mind the healing amount... in the hands of a Cleric. I guess my main concern is that anyone can get that much healing by taking 1 level in the class. That's what feels off the most to me.
If Clerics got the full benefit, but multiclassing 1 level got half the benefit, it would be much better to me.
Fair enough. Though, to be honest, I find the topic endlessly fascinating, especially since I'm fairly sure that the attitude carries over into other games, including vidya, as well
Anyways, as for the rest. But, yeah, you're right about not all buffs being good, or even feeling good to people. That's a whole 'nother wormhole of science and psychology about how buffs and nerfs to game mechanics work. Its kind of tied to a whole Pavlovian reward/punishment behavior type thing, along with our fascination with dice and random numbers and addiction to gambling and (at an extreme) gacha games.
Its fundamentally tied less to big numbers and more to the feeling of getting a reward in the form of an endorphin rush when you beat a challenge. The lower the challenge, the less the rush. The bigger the challenge, the greater the rush when you succeed. Part of this too, I suspect, is why healers are less popular - they require a certain type of empathy and group identity that's not always present in everybody. People get rushes out of different things. Anyways!
When I DM, I... honestly, I don't really pay attention to the player's resource pool. Most of my gaming is done over discord and VTT, so we're lucky if we get two combats in per session. Having multiple in a single day where I'm expecting to drain the resources? Its not... really fun for anyone. Having to go for a long period IRL hoarding resources is more of a drain than a fun thing. At least, that's been my experience playing primarily online. Its a different style. Less fights, but bigger ones, and more downtime.
So, I expect, going into most fights, people are going to be full on resources. And that is very much shaping my expectations of how good Channel Divinity is here. I... just can't feel excited about it.
It's very interesting being on these forums and seeing how other people enjoy the game. Having always played in person, with my own unique players, and my own outlook on running adventures, I only had that idea of what people needed. I think I previously assumed that playing online was just like being in person, but with buffering issues haha.
It's good to see how other people play and the things they want from the game. It helps me get a bigger picture on the design challenges. I want a future game that works for a many tables as possible. So I really appreciate the insights.
Going off of my MMO experience it's because it's a job that gets a lot of stress and flak even when you do it right. Even when you do it right people will complain because you didn't do it EXACTLY right. I.E. did someone die and no one revive them? It's not because the GM's been a stingy jerk and you haven't had the funds for the dust, it's because you, as the healer, didn't sink what little funds you got into getting the diamond dust and instead opted for some other item that, while helpful, can't bring back the dead. Not to mention that, when you know how to do a support well, everyone starts to EXPECT you will do stuff like twin-cast haste so, if you don't for any reason (like it not being ideal for that fight) you get blamed. When I did a divine soul in D&D I didn't have that problem, but I knew the people IRL well beforehand and they were longtime friends who know better. I wouldn't expect that to hold in a game with some guys I found online.
Glad you like them! But, and this is really ironic, you are kind of right. It is like playing in person but with "buffering." If buffering included the time it takes for people to type in and make decisions, etc. In my experience, playing online means that everything is actually slower than in person. What would be a quick combat in person might drag on far longer.
So, there's a couple tricks you can pick up to speed things along, using gdocs/sheets, posting rules, how many combats you run, etc. A lot of the differences between online play and offline are just ways to cut down on "buffering," imho. And not everyone uses those tricks - just as each table has its own home rules, so too does every digital table to speed things up. I was mainly describing the quirks of my own experiences.
I for one play support roles(I have done it with almost every class) and realize most players don't like it. This is where trying to reach for such high satisfaction ratings really falls flat IMO. People who love damage mages might not be the best for imput into a class that has support as at least permanent percentage of their identity.
In order to make the game more accessible the outlines playstyles need a place where they can get their enjoyment. I still say "breadth of appeal" is a better goal than "depth of satisfaction". Still wotc can try to be as close a middle ground as feasible.
I really think long term investment in classes should show growth but cleric slightly missed the mark with the rate of exponential growth (i think thats the right term) by having the same skill increases by prof two different ways. The "majority" might want increases for the basic features to scale that way but a select few feel dissatisfied by such design.
Warlocks and sorcerers need a similar progression that feels right for them. The difference from cleric being they are often (but not always) damage and high impact rounds and each specifically having different sub-appeal focused around using invocations or metamagic in play.
I want to note something that I am unsure about. Maybe the issue with level 1 Channel divinity is with Cleric identity. The level 1 channel divinity, as is already noted, provides a solid amount of out of combat healing that helps extend the adventuring day without using spell slots. In addition it provides the turn undead option. The question I think is not "is this too strong for an action" I don't think it is, obviously that isn't an issue especially for full Clerics. The question also shouldn't be, "does this provide to much out of combat healing". I think the real question is "does this 1 level dip step on the toes of the full Cleric identity". In other words. Other than healing people back to full and being a good counter to undead, what does higher level Cleric bring to the table that you can't get with a 1 level dip?
obviously everyone brings damage so that isn't it. Bless is a first level spell you can get with a 1 level dip. So what is the Cleric bringing at higher levels? As far as I can tell, lesser restoration, maybe greater restoration and resurrection magic. Other than that what do they bring that you can't get with the current 1 level dip?
The full Divine Spell List. Only one other class as access to the Divine Spell list and it maxed out at 5th level slots.
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A higher level Cleric in 1D&D can...
Seems like a fair bit that they bring to the table, that a one-level dip couldn't. Yes, by first level they are effective against undead and can heal. So what? That's a large part of their identity, so it makes sense that they get it early. You might as well argue for Wizards to only get their spellbook halfway through the game. After all, other than having a spellbook and using it to cast spells, what does being a higher level Wizard get you? I just don't agree with your idea that a class shouldn't have an identity by first level.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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To be clear, I absolutely LOVE and believe that a class should have their identity at level 1. I was GENUENLY curious what the Divine spell list really offers other than damage. I know it offers lesser restoration, greater restoration, more healing options and revivify. The damage options can be replicated with the damage options of other classes, the component cost of greater restoration hurts it as a role for me. And I was genuinely curious as to the other stand out spells on the divine spell list that give the cleric it's identity outside of healing now that you can get so much healing on divine spark. I am WORRIED that the issue with divine spark is that a 1 level cleric dip will step on the toes of the guy that is full cleric and steals 70% of the clerics role away with just a level dip.
The wizard has teleport spells that most spell lists don't have access to, they have battle field control spells I know the druid has a lot of battlefield control spells as well. The wizard has the most versatile spell list with the only thing they DON'T have access to being healing and reviving spells. If the clerics 1 level dip means the wizard can get all the battlefield control, teleporting, blasting and utility magic they ever could need while still performing 70% of the clerics role and identity than the 1 level dip may be too strong.
And to be 100% clear, I don't know that it does. This is a literal IF. I don't know that it does, I am asking those that are more experienced playing cleric what the cleric's role and Identity is and if they are worried that a 1 level dip will allow other classes to take that identity.
I am not worried about a 1 level dip of ranger taking its identity because I know abilities like Roving, otherwise I might be afraid that a 1 level dip in ranger gives too much of the ranger identity to others. And even then, it might. I do think classes should have their identity at level 1, but I don't think a different class should be able to do 70% of a different classes job with just a 1 level dip in that class. Having not played enough I am not sure if that is an issue yet, so I was looking for what others thoughts are.
So what are the stand out spells? what gives the cleric its identity past level 1, not including subclasses. What are the stand out 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th level divine spells that give a cleric an identity.
We can't forget optimizers if we are looking at balance, and this discussion is related to balance. We always have to consider builds being pushed to their utmost potential to make sure the power ceiling and floor are not too far apart. We want to have a game where non-optimizers can play with optimizers without being overshadowed.
Cleric is honestly still in a good spot. It is still really strong and fun to play. The second level choice helps a lot and lets you pick between being a frontline cleric or a backline cleric regardless of your domain, which is a good change.
What I feel is not in a good spot right now is multiclassing. It is difficult and tricky to use for most people; optimizers have no issue using it due to their tendency for system mastery, but for most people. It is not exactly fun to use for most people. Before, it could be said that the power you could get from dips justified the extra difficulty and restrictions on multiclassing, but the dips in 1D&D tend to be weaker now, with subclasses being standardized to 3rd level, which encourages going deeper into a class. However going deeper into a class tends to be discouraged due to delaying feats and key features like extra attack. Easing up on some of these things can make multiclassing a more fun experience for most players.
Optimization becomes incredibly important when we are looking at balancing. And this is a disussion related to balancing is it not? Rogue is very clearly underpowered in its current 1D&D state. Many of the changes seen incredibly backwards and remove the team synergy potential that rogue had in 5E. The sneak attack change also prevents you from doing a sneak attack on a held action which is incredibly backwards when you consider how you can no longer hide behind a corner and sneak attack on a held action on someone passing the corner.
You can be done with me and never reply to me, but that does not matter to me. When I debate I don't aim to change the mind of my opponent. I aim to change the mind of the audience. So as long as I can reply to you and refute your points, I will.
That doesn't really matter anymore because subclasses are moved to 3rd level. Plus, I am saying that cleric dips pre-xanathar so before Hexblade, Peace, Twilight, etc. You didn't see any complaints on people dipping into cleric back them and gaining a subclass is generally going to be more useful. I regularly checked subreddits, discord servers, and listened on to discussions at locals and clubs at my university at the time.
For higher level cleric spells, spiritual weapon was a notable spell though with the nerf it recieved it probably becomes less notable if not ignorable. Spirit Guardians is another notable spell. Cleric is more known for the resurrection spells like revify, raise dead, and resurrection, even though other classes like bard can also get them; that may also be mitigated by bard having magical secrets so people may expect bard to be a bit of a wild card, thus preserving some of those spells as more of a cleric identity. Paladins can get revify and raise dead as well, but paladins are often seen to be closely related to clerics and as half casters get them much later.
Holy Weapon is another standout spell; paladins get it as well, but again at a much later level.
I think it is much less about the specific spells that clerics only get but the specific mixture of spells. Plus, with how multiclassing interacts with spell progression, there is a reason why you don't often see much more than dips with fullcasters, exceptions being sorlock and sorcadin.
Technically, speaking, druids can be as potent of a healer as a cleric. Bard as well. However, cleric comes in mind for most people when they think of healers. Don't forget that Divine Soul Sorcerers also have access to the cleric spell list, but cleric still maintained its identity in 5e.
I think you bring up a good point. Sure clerics have 2nd-9th level spells that a 1 level dip doesn’t give you but what are some of the iconic cleric spells? Spiritual Weapon (damage just like everyone else can do), Spirit Guardians (damage AOE and some control, but other spellcasters can do similar) Lesser/Greater Restoration, Heal, Raise Dead (good spells that some others share, some not. But is part of the Cleric identity that is somewhat unique). But what else that would separate a full Cleric vs Cleric 1/Wizard X or Cleric 1/Fighter X or Paladin X?
Edit: I think CD as proposed in the UA is fine if scaled on Cleric level (at least the number of d8’s, but would be fine with number of uses on Cleric level as well)
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I think what seperates clerics the most from other classes are their features and the theme/flavor of their spells. If we are looking at just mechanics, a lot of casters are going to look similar because they all have ways to do damage and crowd control and most have ways of doing some healing. You can do a lot of the same things a cleric can do as a druid for example; in different ways and with different spells perhaps, but you can still fulfill the same roles.
Lets examine the cleric vs divine sorc identity in 5e and things that are vanishing from that difference in one dnd.
1. Channel divinity. Before you needed 2 levels and got turn undead and your subclass specific channel divinity and only 1 use per short rest, which for some groups effectively meant once or twice a day. That is now PB and the healing you used to need spell slots and higher level spells for is now possible with this feature at level 1. Lowering the value of those higher level spells.
2. Prepared spell casting. In 5e the cleric cam prepare way more spells than a sorcerer could know + their domain spells. In one dnd everyone seems to be getting the same spell preparations. So the only difference in spell prep now is domain spell preps. The gap is no where near as large.
5e higher level spells are needed for good healing. In one dnd they aren't because of divine spark. In 5e Prepared spell casting is a huge boon to your power. In one dnd everyone has prepared spell casting.
Based on the info provided so far, resurrection and restoration spells are what is holding together the cleric identity at higher levels right now.
(Druid is different currently because healing is only 1 job for both currently. Druids get wildshape clerics get channel divinity and metal armor. Druids get healing and battlefield control, clerics get healing and smiting spells)
One dnd I expect they will try to separate them more, making the cleric better at healing because divine spark, but then you take that 1 level dip and you dont need some of the higher level spells anymore.
The classes as a whole, not just cleric, are becoming more homogenized.
You have to understand you are specifically comparing 2 full casters in the same class group. Yes they are going to have similar roles with some key differences. The biggest being CD vs WS.
What I am talking about is a warrior, expert or mage stealing 70% of the priest group identity with a 1 level dip into said priest group.
Think of all the things you think of as iconic for wizard. Now imagine being able to do 70% of what they do with a 1 level dip into them as a ranger. Doing almost their entire job in the mid game with a 1 level dip without sacrificing much of your main job at all. That is an issue.
I think there is something to what Aquilontune is saying. It might be part of what's bothering me about Channel Divinity on some subconscious level. It's kind of like if a level 1 Wizard got a feature that gave them PB uses per day, and you got to choose between doing PBxd8 fire damage, teleport, or dispel magic. It's not everything a wizard can do, but it is a lot of their whole theme. And the Wizard1/ Fighter 19 will get to do that part just as well as the Wizard 20.
Bard is in a different class group and also can heal, and poach high level healing spells from cleric.
Also, healing should not be the only identity of cleric. Cleric is a caster that is able to walk into a brawl and duke it out with the martials and a number of spells benefit from that., such as Spirit Guardians. Someone earlier said that other classes can do what Spirit Guardians can do, but Spirit Guardians is noted to be one of the best damaging spells in the game on top of its crowd control. It is a very popular spell to poach as a Sorcadin if they take Divine Soul Sorcerer.
The issue I think is that people perceive Cleric as a healer too much. We shouldn't be seeing the channel divinity healing as essentially being 70% or even a significant portion of the identity cleric. I think I don't see a problem with the Channel Divinity because one, I don't see it as an amazing ability, and two, I see Clerics as more than healers. I personally rather see the combat clerics that don't focus as much on healing and instead leverage their other damage and control spells in combat with healing as secondary, being used sparingly since healing generally does not keep up with damage in combat.
I've done multiple Cleric 20's and Cleric 1/Wizard 19's in 5e, and I always found that I played them different. Sure the mechanical goal is pretty similar, but enough of the later spells are different that I approach them in different ways. Even Arcana Cleric 20 felt very different from a Cleric 1/Wizard X for me. I stayed in the back more as a Cleric 1/Wizard X as while yes I did have the defenses to be on the frontlines with medium armor, shields, and the Shield spell, most of my features and spells allowed me to stay at a distance, especially with spells like Misty Step to help me keep my distance, while as a straight Cleric, I had spells like Spirit Guardians that made me want to move in closer. Sure I had ranged spells and could play more of a backline Cleric, but I found myself having a lot more incentive to get in close as a Cleric. Hell, with Arcana Cleric, I poached Greenflame Blade so I could use it with Potent Spellcasting for a more melee orientated cleric.
Just to give another example using ranger 5 cleric 1. I have my damage, not worried about that. Cleric is giving me the healing with CD and giving me turn undead with it's one level dip. I am also getting 2 divine cantrips, guidance and thaumaturge, not much else needed. And i get 2 first level divine spells, bless and sanctuary. Some of the most iconic, powerful and unique cleric spells are first level spells. I still have lesser restoration because primal list. I missing out on revivify, but that costs 300 diamond to cast and is intentionally super situational, probably prefer to just get a scroll for this. What am I missing? Did I just take a majority of the cleric role while not having to give up my role as a ranger as well? What job does cleric have that I am not fulfilling here?
Only thing I could think that I am missing is dispel magic and remove curse. Is that it? Or am I missing something?
Edit: So, from what I am hearing, it is just spirit gaurdians giving a different flavor of damage and that is it.
Fullcaster versatility. Aside from your spell progression being about half the speed of a fullcaster and I wouldn't say your damage is fully comparable either (Spirit Guardians is really a good spell for a reason). There are still a host of spells that Clerics have that Ranger does not. We also only seen the class features for one domain. There are still other domains that make up a huge part of Cleric's Identity. Remember the Arcana Cleric that I mentioned before, they have a neat feature called Spellbreaker which is great for ending spells cast on your allies, especially when combined with Healing Word to do it as a bonus action. War Cleric had War God's Blessing, Knowledge Cleric had Read Thoughts and expertise to Knowledge skills, Peace and Twilight Cleric had their often complained about features, and so on. A lot of the identity of Cleric is within the domains, which make sense considering how tied to their deities they are, and to get that identity, you have to take more than a single level in cleric.