I think there is something to what Aquilontune is saying. It might be part of what's bothering me about Channel Divinity on some subconscious level. It's kind of like if a level 1 Wizard got a feature that gave them PB uses per day, and you got to choose between doing PBxd8 fire damage, teleport, or dispel magic. It's not everything a wizard can do, but it is a lot of their whole theme. And the Wizard1/ Fighter 19 will get to do that part just as well as the Wizard 20.
Just to give another example using ranger 5 cleric 1. I have my damage, not worried about that. Cleric is giving me the healing with CD and giving me turn undead with it's one level dip. I am also getting 2 divine cantrips, guidance and thaumaturge, not much else needed. And i get 2 first level divine spells, bless and sanctuary. Some of the most iconic, powerful and unique cleric spells are first level spells. I still have lesser restoration because primal list. I missing out on revivify, but that costs 300 diamond to cast and is intentionally super situational, probably prefer to just get a scroll for this. What am I missing? Did I just take a majority of the cleric role while not having to give up my role as a ranger as well? What job does cleric have that I am not fulfilling here?
Only thing I could think that I am missing is dispel magic and remove curse. Is that it? Or am I missing something?
Edit: So, from what I am hearing, it is just spirit gaurdians giving a different flavor of damage and that is it.
I know you said Ranger 5 Cleric 1, but if you only dip in Cleric, you do miss out on greater restoration, since you don't get that until 17th level in Ranger. And if you care about utility, speak with dead is decent utility that Rangers don't get but Clerics do.
I have said before the issue I have with greater restoration is the same as I have with revivify. It has a costly material component that the spell consumes and is super situational so I would rather just have a scroll. But speak with dead is kind of what I was asking about earlier. What are some of the cool stand out higher level spells. once you hit 11 divine intervention comes in and we are talking campaigns past the point most don't play, so I am really looking for stuff like this in the 3rd, 4th and 5th level spell range, heck even second level spells to a degree. What is some cools stuff because legitimately was struggling to think of them.
Well I'm glad speak with dead satisfied your criteria. I would say some stand-outs, at least to me, are stuff like death ward, antilife shell, destructive wave (that's a divine spell in One D&D so Clerics can get it now), the One D&D version of Prayer of Healing.
My criteria was literally stuff that doesn't just do damage because everyone can do damage, and didn't have super costly components that it consumes. And I do like the new prayer of healing. I do want to say thank you for answering my question, because I was legitimately curious what else the cleric brings. Some cool stuff.
I've been thinking about this a lot since you brought it up. I asked myself what spells made a Cleric what it is. What do I consider iconic to the class? Can any other class cast do the same? Why is it difficult to name many?
So I looked through the whole list of Cleric spells in the 5e book. I then compared them to the 1DnD Divine spell list. And I cross-referenced it with the Arcane and Primal lists to see if they could cast them too.
And honestly the results were a bit sad...
There are only 37 spells that the Cleric can cast that no one else can. If you add in the Paladin spells they now get, it adds 16 more. But they are mostly smites and some auras. I'm not sure how much they will get played for most Clerics. And they aren't really what we think of as a Cleric in 5e. They might become more of its identity in the future. But here's the list -
1 Bane
1 Bless
1 Command
1 Detect Evil and Good
1 Guiding Bolt
1 Inflict Wounds
1 Sanctuary
1 Shield of Faith
2 Aid
2 Prayer of Healing
2 Spiritual Weapon
2 Warding Bond
2 Zone of Truth
3 Beacon of Hope
3 Create Food and Water
3 Speak with Dead
3 Spirit Guardians
4 Death Ward
4 Divination
4 Guardian of Faith
5 Commune
5 Contagion
5 Dispel Evil and Good
5 Flamestrike
5 Hallow
5 Raise Dead
6 Blade Barrier
6 Forbiddance
6 Harm
6 Heroes Feast
6 Planar Ally
6 Word of Recall
7 Conjure Celestial
7 Divine Word
7 Resurrection
8 Holy Aura
9 Mass Heal
That's it. That's the Cleric's unique list. That's what gives them their own theme. 37 might look like a decent amount, but the Arcane list gets almost that many unique spells at 1st level alone.
I don't know what it says about the Cleric. You can kind of find some common elements. The fact that Druids can do most of the same healing and restoration spells makes this list a lot shorter. But anyway, I spent way too long making it not to share it. Haha.
Edit - I missed Spirital Weapon of all things. It's added and the total is updated now.
Only thing I could think that I am missing is dispel magic and remove curse. Is that it? Or am I missing something?
Edit: So, from what I am hearing, it is just spirit gaurdians giving a different flavor of damage and that is it.
I know they gave Dispel Magic to clerics, but is that really something considered part of the cleric's identity? Honestly, I always thought it was more in theme for mage types alongside Counterspell. So the idea its part of cleric identity throws me a bit.
Okay, so I'm going to take a moment to play Devil's Advocate and agree that Channel Divinity is too powerful as a 1st level dip. So, we should bring it more in line with Bardic Inspiration, in that part of it scales on class, part of it on PB instead of PB².
Now, how would we do that without making the 1 level dip feel bad? Would having Channel Divinity uses based on class level work? I don't know about the rest of you, but having the power of the Channel Divinity feature based on class means, well... I don't think I would ever use it then. And its a super pet peeve of mine to have abilities that don't scale well, especially if they're racial spells (I'm looking at you, dragonborn and tieflings). But that's slightly off topic.
So, would having just one use of 6d8 healing at max level feel good for a single level dip, then? Or whatever?
Okay, so I'm going to take a moment to play Devil's Advocate and agree that Channel Divinity is too powerful as a 1st level dip. So, we should bring it more in line with Bardic Inspiration, in that part of it scales on class, part of it on PB instead of PB².
Now, how would we do that without making the 1 level dip feel bad? Would having Channel Divinity uses based on class level work? I don't know about the rest of you, but having the power of the Channel Divinity feature based on class means, well... I don't think I would ever use it then. And its a super pet peeve of mine to have abilities that don't scale well, especially if they're racial spells (I'm looking at you, dragonborn and tieflings). But that's slightly off topic.
So, would having just one use of 6d8 healing at max level feel good for a single level dip, then? Or whatever?
For a one level dip I don’t think having a 2d8 6 times per day (start CD at 2d8 then scale up with Cleric level, but number of uses based on PB) that you can heal or add to damage as too bad. It is a one level dip after all.
Or having a 6d8 twice a day (scale number of uses on Cleric level starting at twice and dice rolled based on PB) for healing or damage is bad either. Edit: that’s like two paladin smites using 4th level slots against an undead or fiend, if used for damage. Although there is the save for half on CD.
I don’t know which method I would prefer, but I think either could be acceptable, in my opinion.
I've been thinking about this a lot since you brought it up. I asked myself what spells made a Cleric what it is. What do I consider iconic to the class? Can any other class cast do the same? Why is it difficult to name many?
So I looked through the whole list of Cleric spells in the 5e book. I then compared them to the 1DnD Divine spell list. And I cross-referenced it with the Arcane and Primal lists to see if they could cast them too.
And honestly the results were a bit sad...
There are only 37 spells that the Cleric can cast that no one else can. If you add in the Paladin spells they now get, it adds 16 more. But they are mostly smites and some auras. I'm not sure how much they will get played for most Clerics. And they aren't really what we think of as a Cleric in 5e. They might become more of its identity in the future. But here's the list -
1 Bane
1 Bless
1 Command
1 Detect Evil and Good
1 Guiding Bolt
1 Inflict Wounds
1 Sanctuary
1 Shield of Faith
2 Aid
2 Prayer of Healing
2 Spiritual Weapon
2 Warding Bond
2 Zone of Truth
3 Beacon of Hope
3 Create Food and Water
3 Speak with Dead
3 Spirit Guardians
4 Death Ward
4 Divination
4 Guardian of Faith
5 Commune
5 Contagion
5 Dispel Evil and Good
5 Flamestrike
5 Hallow
5 Raise Dead
6 Blade Barrier
6 Forbiddance
6 Harm
6 Heroes Feast
6 Planar Ally
6 Word of Recall
7 Conjure Celestial
7 Divine Word
7 Resurrection
8 Holy Aura
9 Mass Heal
That's it. That's the Cleric's unique list. That's what gives them their own theme. 37 might look like a decent amount, but the Arcane list gets almost that many unique spells at 1st level alone.
I don't know what it says about the Cleric. You can kind of find some common elements. The fact that Druids can do most of the same healing and restoration spells makes this list a lot shorter. But anyway, I spent way too long making it not to share it. Haha.
Edit - I missed Spirital Weapon of all things. It's added and the total is updated now.
Also I'm a believer in quality over quantity. The Cleric might get far fewer unique spells than the Wizard, but many of them I do like, at least thematically. And also Bards and Sorcerers have very few unique spells to themselves, so Cleric is nowhere near the "worst" in that regard.
Not to mention, I don't think it's a great approach to omit the other spells it does get. Like it doesn't make sense to me to disregard spells like cure wounds, astral projection, true resurrection, greater restoration, lesser restoration, heal, revivify, summon celestial, sunbeam (which they get in One D&D and Tasha's), or gate just because other classes get them too. They're all spells that are key to the Cleric's identity in some way. The point of shared spells is that those spells fit the identity of multiple classes.
Temple of the Gods isn't on the list because I was only comparing 5e PHB spells to 1DnD PHB spells, since 1DnD isn't looking at the expansions yet.
Just to be clear, I agree that healing, restoration, and ressurections are a huge part of a Cleric's identity. It's the first thing I think of when I think Cleric. Along with some spells they lost in 1DnD, while some spells they gained are also good fits.
I was just doing an experiment to see what the Clerics owned all to themselves. What things only they can do. Because the question was asked concerning the Cleric identity. I have a mental image of what that is. I wanted to look at the data and see if it was based on actual game rules, or just my impression based on playing them since Basic, or just the lore blinding me. And I was curious if 1DnD was giving too much of their identity away.
What this list showed me was that Clerics don't have a ton that Druids and Wizards don't also have. But there are a few unique themes. There are some buffs, some ways to sanctify areas, some ways to ask gods for help, and some ways of fighting undead and extraplanar evils. It means that Turn Undead and other channel divinity powers are pretty important to their identity.
Like I said, I don't know what it all means. I wasn't trying to make any real point. I was just sharing the results of my curiosity after I wasted a lot of time on it. Haha.
While a 1 level dip might give you the bare basics of Channel Divinity (Divine Spark and Turn Undead) they will never have the additional versatility or additional power (Subclass Channels and Smite Undead) that comes from full devotion.
Also, I would like to point out that a 1 level dip is still a cleric and should feel like one. I can't think of a single reason why a first level cleric should NOT feel like a cleric.
While a 1 level dip might give you the bare basics of Channel Divinity (Divine Spark and Turn Undead) they will never have the additional versatility or additional power (Subclass Channels and Smite Undead) that comes from full devotion.
Also, I would like to point out that a 1 level dip is still a cleric and should feel like one. I can't think of a single reason why a first level cleric should NOT feel like a cleric.
Yeah, the question was never if it should feel like a Cleric, or if it was just as good as actually leveling in Cleric. The question was whether Channel Divinity scaling so well was giving a larger benefit than other 1 level dips. Was it giving too much benefit of the class in just one level, compared to the other classes we've seen. Since a Wizard or Sorcerer might possibly get much of the benefits of a full Cleric without much cost.
Except for people looking for very specific benefits from some of the Domains at level 1 (heavy armor, or expertise in a knowledge skill, for example), a 1 level dip in the 1DnD Cleric is better than anything you ever got in 5e for the same investment.
Maybe it's not a big deal. Everyone plays differently, so it might feel better or worse at each table. I'll be testing multiple builds at various tiers of play to decide for myself.
Okay, so I'm going to take a moment to play Devil's Advocate and agree that Channel Divinity is too powerful as a 1st level dip. So, we should bring it more in line with Bardic Inspiration, in that part of it scales on class, part of it on PB instead of PB².
Now, how would we do that without making the 1 level dip feel bad? Would having Channel Divinity uses based on class level work? I don't know about the rest of you, but having the power of the Channel Divinity feature based on class means, well... I don't think I would ever use it then. And its a super pet peeve of mine to have abilities that don't scale well, especially if they're racial spells (I'm looking at you, dragonborn and tieflings). But that's slightly off topic.
So, would having just one use of 6d8 healing at max level feel good for a single level dip, then? Or whatever?
For a one level dip I don’t think having a 2d8 6 times per day (start CD at 2d8 then scale up with Cleric level, but number of uses based on PB) that you can heal or add to damage as too bad. It is a one level dip after all.
Or having a 6d8 twice a day (scale number of uses on Cleric level starting at twice and dice rolled based on PB) for healing or damage is bad either. Edit: that’s like two paladin smites using 4th level slots against an undead or fiend, if used for damage. Although there is the save for half on CD.
I don’t know which method I would prefer, but I think either could be acceptable, in my opinion.
Yup, I think that's what most people would expect if it was going to scale like Bardic Inspiration. Just having one half scale on PB and the other by Cleric level.
Because of the other uses for Channel Divinity, it might be best if the uses per day scaled on Cleric level. But since you don't get another way to use it from your domain until level 6, that's not going to be a concern for small dips. So it might be a wash either way.
The dice being based on PB also feels like it would be better at higher levels. A Cleric 1/Wizard 16 would get the full 6d8 per use, but only have 2 uses per day. Limited uses, but ones that are still worth something at that level, feels about right
I've been thinking about this a lot since you brought it up. I asked myself what spells made a Cleric what it is. What do I consider iconic to the class? Can any other class cast do the same? Why is it difficult to name many?
So I looked through the whole list of Cleric spells in the 5e book. I then compared them to the 1DnD Divine spell list. And I cross-referenced it with the Arcane and Primal lists to see if they could cast them too.
And honestly the results were a bit sad...
There are only 37 spells that the Cleric can cast that no one else can. If you add in the Paladin spells they now get, it adds 16 more. But they are mostly smites and some auras. I'm not sure how much they will get played for most Clerics. And they aren't really what we think of as a Cleric in 5e. They might become more of its identity in the future. But here's the list -
1 Bane
1 Bless
1 Command
1 Detect Evil and Good
1 Guiding Bolt
1 Inflict Wounds
1 Sanctuary
1 Shield of Faith
2 Aid
2 Prayer of Healing
2 Spiritual Weapon
2 Warding Bond
2 Zone of Truth
3 Beacon of Hope
3 Create Food and Water
3 Speak with Dead
3 Spirit Guardians
4 Death Ward
4 Divination
4 Guardian of Faith
5 Commune
5 Contagion
5 Dispel Evil and Good
5 Flamestrike
5 Hallow
5 Raise Dead
6 Blade Barrier
6 Forbiddance
6 Harm
6 Heroes Feast
6 Planar Ally
6 Word of Recall
7 Conjure Celestial
7 Divine Word
7 Resurrection
8 Holy Aura
9 Mass Heal
That's it. That's the Cleric's unique list. That's what gives them their own theme. 37 might look like a decent amount, but the Arcane list gets almost that many unique spells at 1st level alone.
I don't know what it says about the Cleric. You can kind of find some common elements. The fact that Druids can do most of the same healing and restoration spells makes this list a lot shorter. But anyway, I spent way too long making it not to share it. Haha.
Edit - I missed Spirital Weapon of all things. It's added and the total is updated now.
To make your spiritual weapon find worse with it no needing concentration its not really different thematically from flaming sphere, moonbeam etc.
But to your initial point of their special list being small and kind of sad. This is where the new preparation system hurts. Before yes they had a smaller list. But, they knew all the spells. A wizard had to learn them, a sorcerer, warlock, bard etc know them. But every day like a druid which also had a pretty small list they could pick any spell from that list. It is incredibly rare for a wizard to learn as many spells as a cleric always knows in 5e. In one, that seems to be the norm so the weaker list feels worse.
While a 1 level dip might give you the bare basics of Channel Divinity (Divine Spark and Turn Undead) they will never have the additional versatility or additional power (Subclass Channels and Smite Undead) that comes from full devotion.
Also, I would like to point out that a 1 level dip is still a cleric and should feel like one. I can't think of a single reason why a first level cleric should NOT feel like a cleric.
Yeah, the question was never if it should feel like a Cleric, or if it was just as good as actually leveling in Cleric. The question was whether Channel Divinity scaling so well was giving a larger benefit than other 1 level dips. Was it giving too much benefit of the class in just one level, compared to the other classes we've seen. Since a Wizard or Sorcerer might possibly get much of the benefits of a full Cleric without much cost.
Except for people looking for very specific benefits from some of the Domains at level 1 (heavy armor, or expertise in a knowledge skill, for example), a 1 level dip in the 1DnD Cleric is better than anything you ever got in 5e for the same investment.
Maybe it's not a big deal. Everyone plays differently, so it might feel better or worse at each table. I'll be testing multiple builds at various tiers of play to decide for myself.
Is a character that has dedicated herself to hunting undead for the church less deserving of the gifts bestowed upon them than the character that has dedicated themselves to healing the sick? (aka Ranger 5/Cleric 1 vs a Cleric 6). Is a relic hunter skulking the dark underbelly of the city attempting to retrieve lost artifacts any less deserving of the blessings of their god? (Aka Rogue 7/Cleric 1). There are many ways to serve a deity so to me, the current "dip" benefits are thematic and allow for flavorful builds.
Whether it is too powerful, I have not found it to be so thus far. If you put a Full Cleric in the party with a Rogue with a dip into cleric, the Cleric still has gains greater benefits from their channel Divinity than the Rogue with just a dip. I use this example because that is the situation in our current party. The level 8 Life Domain Cleric is still out "clericing" the Level 7/1 Rogue/Cleric, but they still gets to feel like a functional member of the church that they are both member of.
These experiences may not reflect those found at other tables, but our group has not found any issues thus far.
While a 1 level dip might give you the bare basics of Channel Divinity (Divine Spark and Turn Undead) they will never have the additional versatility or additional power (Subclass Channels and Smite Undead) that comes from full devotion.
Also, I would like to point out that a 1 level dip is still a cleric and should feel like one. I can't think of a single reason why a first level cleric should NOT feel like a cleric.
Yeah, the question was never if it should feel like a Cleric, or if it was just as good as actually leveling in Cleric. The question was whether Channel Divinity scaling so well was giving a larger benefit than other 1 level dips. Was it giving too much benefit of the class in just one level, compared to the other classes we've seen. Since a Wizard or Sorcerer might possibly get much of the benefits of a full Cleric without much cost.
Except for people looking for very specific benefits from some of the Domains at level 1 (heavy armor, or expertise in a knowledge skill, for example), a 1 level dip in the 1DnD Cleric is better than anything you ever got in 5e for the same investment.
Maybe it's not a big deal. Everyone plays differently, so it might feel better or worse at each table. I'll be testing multiple builds at various tiers of play to decide for myself.
Is a character that has dedicated herself to hunting undead for the church less deserving of the gifts bestowed upon them than the character that has dedicated themselves to healing the sick? (aka Ranger 5/Cleric 1 vs a Cleric 6). Is a relic hunter skulking the dark underbelly of the city attempting to retrieve lost artifacts any less deserving of the blessings of their god? (Aka Rogue 7/Cleric 1). There are many ways to serve a deity so to me, the current "dip" benefits are thematic and allow for flavorful builds.
Whether it is too powerful, I have not found it to be so thus far. If you put a Full Cleric in the party with a Rogue with a dip into cleric, the Cleric still has gains greater benefits from their channel Divinity than the Rogue with just a dip. I use this example because that is the situation in our current party. The level 8 Life Domain Cleric is still out "clericing" the Level 7/1 Rogue/Cleric, but they still gets to feel like a functional member of the church that they are both member of.
These experiences may not reflect those found at other tables, but our group has not found any issues thus far.
Yeah, I don't know what to tell you, I was just talking about game balance haha.
Is a 1 level dip in Cleric worse, the same, or better than a dip into Rogue?
Ignoring specific builds, adventures, roleplaying reasons, ultra combos, and tables, etc. If all other things are equal, that's the question. Does it feel balanced compared to the Bard, Ranger, and Rogue if you only took one level of any of them? It doesn't look like it to me. But I'll find out soon with some tests.
I've been thinking about this a lot since you brought it up. I asked myself what spells made a Cleric what it is. What do I consider iconic to the class? Can any other class cast do the same? Why is it difficult to name many?
So I looked through the whole list of Cleric spells in the 5e book. I then compared them to the 1DnD Divine spell list. And I cross-referenced it with the Arcane and Primal lists to see if they could cast them too.
And honestly the results were a bit sad...
There are only 37 spells that the Cleric can cast that no one else can. If you add in the Paladin spells they now get, it adds 16 more. But they are mostly smites and some auras. I'm not sure how much they will get played for most Clerics. And they aren't really what we think of as a Cleric in 5e. They might become more of its identity in the future. But here's the list -
1 Bane
1 Bless
1 Command
1 Detect Evil and Good
1 Guiding Bolt
1 Inflict Wounds
1 Sanctuary
1 Shield of Faith
2 Aid
2 Prayer of Healing
2 Spiritual Weapon
2 Warding Bond
2 Zone of Truth
3 Beacon of Hope
3 Create Food and Water
3 Speak with Dead
3 Spirit Guardians
4 Death Ward
4 Divination
4 Guardian of Faith
5 Commune
5 Contagion
5 Dispel Evil and Good
5 Flamestrike
5 Hallow
5 Raise Dead
6 Blade Barrier
6 Forbiddance
6 Harm
6 Heroes Feast
6 Planar Ally
6 Word of Recall
7 Conjure Celestial
7 Divine Word
7 Resurrection
8 Holy Aura
9 Mass Heal
That's it. That's the Cleric's unique list. That's what gives them their own theme. 37 might look like a decent amount, but the Arcane list gets almost that many unique spells at 1st level alone.
I don't know what it says about the Cleric. You can kind of find some common elements. The fact that Druids can do most of the same healing and restoration spells makes this list a lot shorter. But anyway, I spent way too long making it not to share it. Haha.
Edit - I missed Spirital Weapon of all things. It's added and the total is updated now.
To make your spiritual weapon find worse with it no needing concentration its not really different thematically from flaming sphere, moonbeam etc.
But to your initial point of their special list being small and kind of sad. This is where the new preparation system hurts. Before yes they had a smaller list. But, they knew all the spells. A wizard had to learn them, a sorcerer, warlock, bard etc know them. But every day like a druid which also had a pretty small list they could pick any spell from that list. It is incredibly rare for a wizard to learn as many spells as a cleric always knows in 5e. In one, that seems to be the norm so the weaker list feels worse.
I think one of the best ways WotC could fix the Cleric spell problem would be to let them not need to prepare anything at all.
In 5e, you prepare a number of spells equal to your Wis bonus + your cleric level. In 1DnD you prepare based on you slots. Both average about the same number of spells. The new way just limits you more by spell level.
But the problem is that people don't often take the spells that are more situational. Spells like Purify Food and Drink, and Find Traps aren't going to be chosen except for the most rare circumstances. Even buffs and protective spells like Sanctuary or Beacon of Hope don't get picked as often. Because players know that Spiritual Weapon, Bless, and Healing Word will always be useful. And since they are limited by preparing spells, they are going to pick the ones that have the best chance of being needed. Sadly that sacrifices so much of what a Cleric could be. (These spells are just examples. I use all of them and I'm sure many others do too. I just suspect that the new 1DnD prepared spell lists are all going to look very similar across many tables.)
Personally I would love if Clerics could just cast any spell available to them if they have the slot. It would get more of them used. And it would make sense thematically. If they're going to have a small list of mostly situational spells, the best way to get more variety into games is to remove the preparation restriction. Let Clerics just pray for the miracle they need at the moment.
It makes more sense than telling the sick villager "I'm sorry, my god would love to help you. Tomorrow. I didn't ask for the right spells this morning so they'll need to reschedule."
While a 1 level dip might give you the bare basics of Channel Divinity (Divine Spark and Turn Undead) they will never have the additional versatility or additional power (Subclass Channels and Smite Undead) that comes from full devotion.
Also, I would like to point out that a 1 level dip is still a cleric and should feel like one. I can't think of a single reason why a first level cleric should NOT feel like a cleric.
Yeah, the question was never if it should feel like a Cleric, or if it was just as good as actually leveling in Cleric. The question was whether Channel Divinity scaling so well was giving a larger benefit than other 1 level dips. Was it giving too much benefit of the class in just one level, compared to the other classes we've seen. Since a Wizard or Sorcerer might possibly get much of the benefits of a full Cleric without much cost.
Except for people looking for very specific benefits from some of the Domains at level 1 (heavy armor, or expertise in a knowledge skill, for example), a 1 level dip in the 1DnD Cleric is better than anything you ever got in 5e for the same investment.
Maybe it's not a big deal. Everyone plays differently, so it might feel better or worse at each table. I'll be testing multiple builds at various tiers of play to decide for myself.
Is a character that has dedicated herself to hunting undead for the church less deserving of the gifts bestowed upon them than the character that has dedicated themselves to healing the sick? (aka Ranger 5/Cleric 1 vs a Cleric 6). Is a relic hunter skulking the dark underbelly of the city attempting to retrieve lost artifacts any less deserving of the blessings of their god? (Aka Rogue 7/Cleric 1). There are many ways to serve a deity so to me, the current "dip" benefits are thematic and allow for flavorful builds.
Whether it is too powerful, I have not found it to be so thus far. If you put a Full Cleric in the party with a Rogue with a dip into cleric, the Cleric still has gains greater benefits from their channel Divinity than the Rogue with just a dip. I use this example because that is the situation in our current party. The level 8 Life Domain Cleric is still out "clericing" the Level 7/1 Rogue/Cleric, but they still gets to feel like a functional member of the church that they are both member of.
These experiences may not reflect those found at other tables, but our group has not found any issues thus far.
Yeah, I don't know what to tell you, I was just talking about game balance haha.
Is a 1 level dip in Cleric worse, the same, or better than a dip into Rogue?
Ignoring specific builds, adventures, roleplaying reasons, ultra combos, and tables, etc. If all other things are equal, that's the question. Does it feel balanced compared to the Bard, Ranger, and Rogue if you only took one level of any of them? It doesn't look like it to me. But I'll find out soon with some tests.
A level 1 dip in Rogue is bad. A level 1 dip in Rogue just doesn't give enough. You get a conditional extra 1d6 in damage once per round, and expertise. This should be buffed.
A level 1 dip in Ranger is good. Getting Hunter's Mark as always prepared and not having to concentrate on it is good. 2 cantrips and 2 spell slots (and a total of 3 prepared spells) are good. Add in Expertise and it is pretty good dip.
A level 1 dip in Bard is good, better if you want to be the best healer you can be. Bardic inspiration being able to heal as a reaction in combat is great, 2 cantrips and 2 spell slots (2 prepared spells) is good. Add in expertise and it is a solid choice. A Cleric with a dip in Bard is awesome at support thanks to Reaction bonus to Saves (Resistance) that stacks with Bless, Reaction Bonus to skill checks (Guidance), and a Reaction Heal that doesn't require a spell slot. Added bonus, none of these get in the way of casting leveled spells the way bonus action spells do.
A level 1 dip in Cleric is good. You get 2 cantrips and spell slots (2 prepared spells), and Channel Divinity both of which are good. A Healing ability that doesn't take a spell slot is good, it is easily the best part of Divine Spark, but it still takes an action unlike Bardic Inspiration so as far as combat use, it is great when you need it, but not so great that other abilities wouldn't be a better choice. The damage portion of Divine Spark is good, but not great. It doesn't use a spell slot but it is a Constitution Save so not a great choice if you have something better which if you are a Wizard, you most certainly have.
Overall, Cleric is good but Bard is better due to action economy. Ranger is better than a Cleric Dip for Martials unless you don't have a healer and Rogue isn't worth the effort when compared to the other three available thus far.
Okay, so I'm going to take a moment to play Devil's Advocate and agree that Channel Divinity is too powerful as a 1st level dip. So, we should bring it more in line with Bardic Inspiration, in that part of it scales on class, part of it on PB instead of PB².
Now, how would we do that without making the 1 level dip feel bad? Would having Channel Divinity uses based on class level work? I don't know about the rest of you, but having the power of the Channel Divinity feature based on class means, well... I don't think I would ever use it then. And its a super pet peeve of mine to have abilities that don't scale well, especially if they're racial spells (I'm looking at you, dragonborn and tieflings). But that's slightly off topic.
So, would having just one use of 6d8 healing at max level feel good for a single level dip, then? Or whatever?
For a one level dip I don’t think having a 2d8 6 times per day (start CD at 2d8 then scale up with Cleric level, but number of uses based on PB) that you can heal or add to damage as too bad. It is a one level dip after all.
Or having a 6d8 twice a day (scale number of uses on Cleric level starting at twice and dice rolled based on PB) for healing or damage is bad either. Edit: that’s like two paladin smites using 4th level slots against an undead or fiend, if used for damage. Although there is the save for half on CD.
I don’t know which method I would prefer, but I think either could be acceptable, in my opinion.
Number of dice rolled scaling on pb and uses scaling on cleric level is the better option. If you do it the other way at higher levels being stuck at 2d8 it loses viability as a damage dealer. Outside of combat the 2d8 healing six times might be better than 6d8 healing twice since you could use it more efficiently. 6d8 just feels like a viable in combat option at higher levels for healing or for dealing damage.
Okay, so I'm going to take a moment to play Devil's Advocate and agree that Channel Divinity is too powerful as a 1st level dip. So, we should bring it more in line with Bardic Inspiration, in that part of it scales on class, part of it on PB instead of PB².
Now, how would we do that without making the 1 level dip feel bad? Would having Channel Divinity uses based on class level work? I don't know about the rest of you, but having the power of the Channel Divinity feature based on class means, well... I don't think I would ever use it then. And its a super pet peeve of mine to have abilities that don't scale well, especially if they're racial spells (I'm looking at you, dragonborn and tieflings). But that's slightly off topic.
So, would having just one use of 6d8 healing at max level feel good for a single level dip, then? Or whatever?
For a one level dip I don’t think having a 2d8 6 times per day (start CD at 2d8 then scale up with Cleric level, but number of uses based on PB) that you can heal or add to damage as too bad. It is a one level dip after all.
Or having a 6d8 twice a day (scale number of uses on Cleric level starting at twice and dice rolled based on PB) for healing or damage is bad either. Edit: that’s like two paladin smites using 4th level slots against an undead or fiend, if used for damage. Although there is the save for half on CD.
I don’t know which method I would prefer, but I think either could be acceptable, in my opinion.
Number of dice rolled scaling on pb and uses scaling on cleric level is the better option. If you do it the other way at higher levels being stuck at 2d8 it loses viability as a damage dealer. Outside of combat the 2d8 healing six times might be better than 6d8 healing twice since you could use it more efficiently. 6d8 just feels like a viable in combat option at higher levels for healing or for dealing damage.
I disagree. In my mind, a 1 level dip should never increase a player's power over a mono classed character, it should only add in some situational flexibility so no scaling in combat is fine because you retain that out of combat utility to heal post fight in addition to the increased selection of cantrips and level 1 spells.
Okay, so I'm going to take a moment to play Devil's Advocate and agree that Channel Divinity is too powerful as a 1st level dip. So, we should bring it more in line with Bardic Inspiration, in that part of it scales on class, part of it on PB instead of PB².
Now, how would we do that without making the 1 level dip feel bad? Would having Channel Divinity uses based on class level work? I don't know about the rest of you, but having the power of the Channel Divinity feature based on class means, well... I don't think I would ever use it then. And its a super pet peeve of mine to have abilities that don't scale well, especially if they're racial spells (I'm looking at you, dragonborn and tieflings). But that's slightly off topic.
So, would having just one use of 6d8 healing at max level feel good for a single level dip, then? Or whatever?
For a one level dip I don’t think having a 2d8 6 times per day (start CD at 2d8 then scale up with Cleric level, but number of uses based on PB) that you can heal or add to damage as too bad. It is a one level dip after all.
Or having a 6d8 twice a day (scale number of uses on Cleric level starting at twice and dice rolled based on PB) for healing or damage is bad either. Edit: that’s like two paladin smites using 4th level slots against an undead or fiend, if used for damage. Although there is the save for half on CD.
I don’t know which method I would prefer, but I think either could be acceptable, in my opinion.
Number of dice rolled scaling on pb and uses scaling on cleric level is the better option. If you do it the other way at higher levels being stuck at 2d8 it loses viability as a damage dealer. Outside of combat the 2d8 healing six times might be better than 6d8 healing twice since you could use it more efficiently. 6d8 just feels like a viable in combat option at higher levels for healing or for dealing damage.
I disagree. In my mind, a 1 level dip should never increase a player's power over a mono classed character, it should only add in some situational flexibility so no scaling in combat is fine because you retain that out of combat utility to heal post fight in addition to the increased selection of cantrips and level 1 spells.
There is no realistic way to make that happen though. A warlock taking a 1-level dip into sorc is going to turn out wildly different in terms of power than if they took a 1-level dip into ranger. A paladin taking a dip into sorc can massively enhance their spellcasting capabilities while a dip into rogue won't give them much of anything. Every class, subclass, and character is going to gain different amounts and the simple fact is that, even if it DID only give flexibility, for some characters that flexibility is going to translate into a big increase in power. Usually because it gives them something valuable that their base class lacks.
Besides, IMO it really should be the opposite way around. We should be rewarding players for understanding the classes and systems. Not that mono-classing should really fall behind, but it should really be for those who want to dedicate the time and effort; not because we're punishing multi-classers.
Okay, so I'm going to take a moment to play Devil's Advocate and agree that Channel Divinity is too powerful as a 1st level dip. So, we should bring it more in line with Bardic Inspiration, in that part of it scales on class, part of it on PB instead of PB².
Now, how would we do that without making the 1 level dip feel bad? Would having Channel Divinity uses based on class level work? I don't know about the rest of you, but having the power of the Channel Divinity feature based on class means, well... I don't think I would ever use it then. And its a super pet peeve of mine to have abilities that don't scale well, especially if they're racial spells (I'm looking at you, dragonborn and tieflings). But that's slightly off topic.
So, would having just one use of 6d8 healing at max level feel good for a single level dip, then? Or whatever?
For a one level dip I don’t think having a 2d8 6 times per day (start CD at 2d8 then scale up with Cleric level, but number of uses based on PB) that you can heal or add to damage as too bad. It is a one level dip after all.
Or having a 6d8 twice a day (scale number of uses on Cleric level starting at twice and dice rolled based on PB) for healing or damage is bad either. Edit: that’s like two paladin smites using 4th level slots against an undead or fiend, if used for damage. Although there is the save for half on CD.
I don’t know which method I would prefer, but I think either could be acceptable, in my opinion.
Number of dice rolled scaling on pb and uses scaling on cleric level is the better option. If you do it the other way at higher levels being stuck at 2d8 it loses viability as a damage dealer. Outside of combat the 2d8 healing six times might be better than 6d8 healing twice since you could use it more efficiently. 6d8 just feels like a viable in combat option at higher levels for healing or for dealing damage.
I disagree. In my mind, a 1 level dip should never increase a player's power over a mono classed character, it should only add in some situational flexibility so no scaling in combat is fine because you retain that out of combat utility to heal post fight in addition to the increased selection of cantrips and level 1 spells.
There is no realistic way to make that happen though. A warlock taking a 1-level dip into sorc is going to turn out wildly different in terms of power than if they took a 1-level dip into ranger. A paladin taking a dip into sorc can massively enhance their spellcasting capabilities while a dip into rogue won't give them much of anything. Every class, subclass, and character is going to gain different amounts and the simple fact is that, even if it DID only give flexibility, for some characters that flexibility is going to translate into a big increase in power. Usually because it gives them something valuable that their base class lacks.
Besides, IMO it really should be the opposite way around. We should be rewarding players for understanding the classes and systems. Not that mono-classing should really fall behind, but it should really be for those who want to dedicate the time and effort; not because we're punishing multi-classers.
It would be difficult, and ultimately potentially impossible... but we could at least limit the gap by scaling things in the game based on class level alone and not PB or character or combined caster levels.
While a 1 level dip might give you the bare basics of Channel Divinity (Divine Spark and Turn Undead) they will never have the additional versatility or additional power (Subclass Channels and Smite Undead) that comes from full devotion.
Also, I would like to point out that a 1 level dip is still a cleric and should feel like one. I can't think of a single reason why a first level cleric should NOT feel like a cleric.
Yeah, the question was never if it should feel like a Cleric, or if it was just as good as actually leveling in Cleric. The question was whether Channel Divinity scaling so well was giving a larger benefit than other 1 level dips. Was it giving too much benefit of the class in just one level, compared to the other classes we've seen. Since a Wizard or Sorcerer might possibly get much of the benefits of a full Cleric without much cost.
Except for people looking for very specific benefits from some of the Domains at level 1 (heavy armor, or expertise in a knowledge skill, for example), a 1 level dip in the 1DnD Cleric is better than anything you ever got in 5e for the same investment.
Maybe it's not a big deal. Everyone plays differently, so it might feel better or worse at each table. I'll be testing multiple builds at various tiers of play to decide for myself.
Is a character that has dedicated herself to hunting undead for the church less deserving of the gifts bestowed upon them than the character that has dedicated themselves to healing the sick? (aka Ranger 5/Cleric 1 vs a Cleric 6). Is a relic hunter skulking the dark underbelly of the city attempting to retrieve lost artifacts any less deserving of the blessings of their god? (Aka Rogue 7/Cleric 1). There are many ways to serve a deity so to me, the current "dip" benefits are thematic and allow for flavorful builds.
Whether it is too powerful, I have not found it to be so thus far. If you put a Full Cleric in the party with a Rogue with a dip into cleric, the Cleric still has gains greater benefits from their channel Divinity than the Rogue with just a dip. I use this example because that is the situation in our current party. The level 8 Life Domain Cleric is still out "clericing" the Level 7/1 Rogue/Cleric, but they still gets to feel like a functional member of the church that they are both member of.
These experiences may not reflect those found at other tables, but our group has not found any issues thus far.
Yeah, I don't know what to tell you, I was just talking about game balance haha.
Is a 1 level dip in Cleric worse, the same, or better than a dip into Rogue?
Ignoring specific builds, adventures, roleplaying reasons, ultra combos, and tables, etc. If all other things are equal, that's the question. Does it feel balanced compared to the Bard, Ranger, and Rogue if you only took one level of any of them? It doesn't look like it to me. But I'll find out soon with some tests.
A level 1 dip in Rogue is bad. A level 1 dip in Rogue just doesn't give enough. You get a conditional extra 1d6 in damage once per round, and expertise. This should be buffed.
A level 1 dip in Ranger is good. Getting Hunter's Mark as always prepared and not having to concentrate on it is good. 2 cantrips and 2 spell slots (and a total of 3 prepared spells) are good. Add in Expertise and it is pretty good dip.
A level 1 dip in Bard is good, better if you want to be the best healer you can be. Bardic inspiration being able to heal as a reaction in combat is great, 2 cantrips and 2 spell slots (2 prepared spells) is good. Add in expertise and it is a solid choice. A Cleric with a dip in Bard is awesome at support thanks to Reaction bonus to Saves (Resistance) that stacks with Bless, Reaction Bonus to skill checks (Guidance), and a Reaction Heal that doesn't require a spell slot. Added bonus, none of these get in the way of casting leveled spells the way bonus action spells do.
A level 1 dip in Cleric is good. You get 2 cantrips and spell slots (2 prepared spells), and Channel Divinity both of which are good. A Healing ability that doesn't take a spell slot is good, it is easily the best part of Divine Spark, but it still takes an action unlike Bardic Inspiration so as far as combat use, it is great when you need it, but not so great that other abilities wouldn't be a better choice. The damage portion of Divine Spark is good, but not great. It doesn't use a spell slot but it is a Constitution Save so not a great choice if you have something better which if you are a Wizard, you most certainly have.
Overall, Cleric is good but Bard is better due to action economy. Ranger is better than a Cleric Dip for Martials unless you don't have a healer and Rogue isn't worth the effort when compared to the other three available thus far.
Funny as to me I think 1 level dips should be targeting what the rogue gives. And the rest give far too much.
I've been thinking about this a lot since you brought it up. I asked myself what spells made a Cleric what it is. What do I consider iconic to the class? Can any other class cast do the same? Why is it difficult to name many?
So I looked through the whole list of Cleric spells in the 5e book. I then compared them to the 1DnD Divine spell list. And I cross-referenced it with the Arcane and Primal lists to see if they could cast them too.
And honestly the results were a bit sad...
There are only 37 spells that the Cleric can cast that no one else can. If you add in the Paladin spells they now get, it adds 16 more. But they are mostly smites and some auras. I'm not sure how much they will get played for most Clerics. And they aren't really what we think of as a Cleric in 5e. They might become more of its identity in the future. But here's the list -
1 Bane
1 Bless
1 Command
1 Detect Evil and Good
1 Guiding Bolt
1 Inflict Wounds
1 Sanctuary
1 Shield of Faith
2 Aid
2 Prayer of Healing
2 Spiritual Weapon
2 Warding Bond
2 Zone of Truth
3 Beacon of Hope
3 Create Food and Water
3 Speak with Dead
3 Spirit Guardians
4 Death Ward
4 Divination
4 Guardian of Faith
5 Commune
5 Contagion
5 Dispel Evil and Good
5 Flamestrike
5 Hallow
5 Raise Dead
6 Blade Barrier
6 Forbiddance
6 Harm
6 Heroes Feast
6 Planar Ally
6 Word of Recall
7 Conjure Celestial
7 Divine Word
7 Resurrection
8 Holy Aura
9 Mass Heal
That's it. That's the Cleric's unique list. That's what gives them their own theme. 37 might look like a decent amount, but the Arcane list gets almost that many unique spells at 1st level alone.
I don't know what it says about the Cleric. You can kind of find some common elements. The fact that Druids can do most of the same healing and restoration spells makes this list a lot shorter. But anyway, I spent way too long making it not to share it. Haha.
Edit - I missed Spirital Weapon of all things. It's added and the total is updated now.
To make your spiritual weapon find worse with it no needing concentration its not really different thematically from flaming sphere, moonbeam etc.
But to your initial point of their special list being small and kind of sad. This is where the new preparation system hurts. Before yes they had a smaller list. But, they knew all the spells. A wizard had to learn them, a sorcerer, warlock, bard etc know them. But every day like a druid which also had a pretty small list they could pick any spell from that list. It is incredibly rare for a wizard to learn as many spells as a cleric always knows in 5e. In one, that seems to be the norm so the weaker list feels worse.
I think one of the best ways WotC could fix the Cleric spell problem would be to let them not need to prepare anything at all.
In 5e, you prepare a number of spells equal to your Wis bonus + your cleric level. In 1DnD you prepare based on you slots. Both average about the same number of spells. The new way just limits you more by spell level.
But the problem is that people don't often take the spells that are more situational. Spells like Purify Food and Drink, and Find Traps aren't going to be chosen except for the most rare circumstances. Even buffs and protective spells like Sanctuary or Beacon of Hope don't get picked as often. Because players know that Spiritual Weapon, Bless, and Healing Word will always be useful. And since they are limited by preparing spells, they are going to pick the ones that have the best chance of being needed. Sadly that sacrifices so much of what a Cleric could be. (These spells are just examples. I use all of them and I'm sure many others do too. I just suspect that the new 1DnD prepared spell lists are all going to look very similar across many tables.)
Personally I would love if Clerics could just cast any spell available to them if they have the slot. It would get more of them used. And it would make sense thematically. If they're going to have a small list of mostly situational spells, the best way to get more variety into games is to remove the preparation restriction. Let Clerics just pray for the miracle they need at the moment.
It makes more sense than telling the sick villager "I'm sorry, my god would love to help you. Tomorrow. I didn't ask for the right spells this morning so they'll need to reschedule."
I like that idea not sure how that would pan out with the whole martial/caster debate going on here and there but it does make a lot of sense.
I think one of the best ways WotC could fix the Cleric spell problem would be to let them not need to prepare anything at all.
In 5e, you prepare a number of spells equal to your Wis bonus + your cleric level. In 1DnD you prepare based on you slots. Both average about the same number of spells. The new way just limits you more by spell level.
But the problem is that people don't often take the spells that are more situational. Spells like Purify Food and Drink, and Find Traps aren't going to be chosen except for the most rare circumstances. Even buffs and protective spells like Sanctuary or Beacon of Hope don't get picked as often. Because players know that Spiritual Weapon, Bless, and Healing Word will always be useful. And since they are limited by preparing spells, they are going to pick the ones that have the best chance of being needed. Sadly that sacrifices so much of what a Cleric could be. (These spells are just examples. I use all of them and I'm sure many others do too. I just suspect that the new 1DnD prepared spell lists are all going to look very similar across many tables.)
Personally I would love if Clerics could just cast any spell available to them if they have the slot. It would get more of them used. And it would make sense thematically. If they're going to have a small list of mostly situational spells, the best way to get more variety into games is to remove the preparation restriction. Let Clerics just pray for the miracle they need at the moment.
It makes more sense than telling the sick villager "I'm sorry, my god would love to help you. Tomorrow. I didn't ask for the right spells this morning so they'll need to reschedule."
How about splitting the difference? A Cleric *can* prepare spells for regular fast casting in combat/etc. but *Clerics* specifically can cast all 'known' spells as Rituals during which they are spending most of the time praying to their diety/dieties/whatever for the spell. Call it 'Ceremonial Casting'.
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I've been thinking about this a lot since you brought it up. I asked myself what spells made a Cleric what it is. What do I consider iconic to the class? Can any other class cast do the same? Why is it difficult to name many?
So I looked through the whole list of Cleric spells in the 5e book. I then compared them to the 1DnD Divine spell list. And I cross-referenced it with the Arcane and Primal lists to see if they could cast them too.
And honestly the results were a bit sad...
There are only 37 spells that the Cleric can cast that no one else can. If you add in the Paladin spells they now get, it adds 16 more. But they are mostly smites and some auras. I'm not sure how much they will get played for most Clerics. And they aren't really what we think of as a Cleric in 5e. They might become more of its identity in the future. But here's the list -
That's it. That's the Cleric's unique list. That's what gives them their own theme. 37 might look like a decent amount, but the Arcane list gets almost that many unique spells at 1st level alone.
I don't know what it says about the Cleric. You can kind of find some common elements. The fact that Druids can do most of the same healing and restoration spells makes this list a lot shorter. But anyway, I spent way too long making it not to share it. Haha.
Edit - I missed Spirital Weapon of all things. It's added and the total is updated now.
I know they gave Dispel Magic to clerics, but is that really something considered part of the cleric's identity? Honestly, I always thought it was more in theme for mage types alongside Counterspell. So the idea its part of cleric identity throws me a bit.
Okay, so I'm going to take a moment to play Devil's Advocate and agree that Channel Divinity is too powerful as a 1st level dip. So, we should bring it more in line with Bardic Inspiration, in that part of it scales on class, part of it on PB instead of PB².
Now, how would we do that without making the 1 level dip feel bad? Would having Channel Divinity uses based on class level work? I don't know about the rest of you, but having the power of the Channel Divinity feature based on class means, well... I don't think I would ever use it then. And its a super pet peeve of mine to have abilities that don't scale well, especially if they're racial spells (I'm looking at you, dragonborn and tieflings). But that's slightly off topic.
So, would having just one use of 6d8 healing at max level feel good for a single level dip, then? Or whatever?
For a one level dip I don’t think having a 2d8 6 times per day (start CD at 2d8 then scale up with Cleric level, but number of uses based on PB) that you can heal or add to damage as too bad. It is a one level dip after all.
Or having a 6d8 twice a day (scale number of uses on Cleric level starting at twice and dice rolled based on PB) for healing or damage is bad either. Edit: that’s like two paladin smites using 4th level slots against an undead or fiend, if used for damage. Although there is the save for half on CD.
I don’t know which method I would prefer, but I think either could be acceptable, in my opinion.
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Temple of the Gods isn't on the list because I was only comparing 5e PHB spells to 1DnD PHB spells, since 1DnD isn't looking at the expansions yet.
Just to be clear, I agree that healing, restoration, and ressurections are a huge part of a Cleric's identity. It's the first thing I think of when I think Cleric. Along with some spells they lost in 1DnD, while some spells they gained are also good fits.
I was just doing an experiment to see what the Clerics owned all to themselves. What things only they can do. Because the question was asked concerning the Cleric identity. I have a mental image of what that is. I wanted to look at the data and see if it was based on actual game rules, or just my impression based on playing them since Basic, or just the lore blinding me. And I was curious if 1DnD was giving too much of their identity away.
What this list showed me was that Clerics don't have a ton that Druids and Wizards don't also have. But there are a few unique themes. There are some buffs, some ways to sanctify areas, some ways to ask gods for help, and some ways of fighting undead and extraplanar evils. It means that Turn Undead and other channel divinity powers are pretty important to their identity.
Like I said, I don't know what it all means. I wasn't trying to make any real point. I was just sharing the results of my curiosity after I wasted a lot of time on it. Haha.
While a 1 level dip might give you the bare basics of Channel Divinity (Divine Spark and Turn Undead) they will never have the additional versatility or additional power (Subclass Channels and Smite Undead) that comes from full devotion.
Also, I would like to point out that a 1 level dip is still a cleric and should feel like one. I can't think of a single reason why a first level cleric should NOT feel like a cleric.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Yeah, the question was never if it should feel like a Cleric, or if it was just as good as actually leveling in Cleric. The question was whether Channel Divinity scaling so well was giving a larger benefit than other 1 level dips. Was it giving too much benefit of the class in just one level, compared to the other classes we've seen. Since a Wizard or Sorcerer might possibly get much of the benefits of a full Cleric without much cost.
Except for people looking for very specific benefits from some of the Domains at level 1 (heavy armor, or expertise in a knowledge skill, for example), a 1 level dip in the 1DnD Cleric is better than anything you ever got in 5e for the same investment.
Maybe it's not a big deal. Everyone plays differently, so it might feel better or worse at each table. I'll be testing multiple builds at various tiers of play to decide for myself.
Yup, I think that's what most people would expect if it was going to scale like Bardic Inspiration. Just having one half scale on PB and the other by Cleric level.
Because of the other uses for Channel Divinity, it might be best if the uses per day scaled on Cleric level. But since you don't get another way to use it from your domain until level 6, that's not going to be a concern for small dips. So it might be a wash either way.
The dice being based on PB also feels like it would be better at higher levels. A Cleric 1/Wizard 16 would get the full 6d8 per use, but only have 2 uses per day. Limited uses, but ones that are still worth something at that level, feels about right
To make your spiritual weapon find worse with it no needing concentration its not really different thematically from flaming sphere, moonbeam etc.
But to your initial point of their special list being small and kind of sad. This is where the new preparation system hurts. Before yes they had a smaller list. But, they knew all the spells. A wizard had to learn them, a sorcerer, warlock, bard etc know them. But every day like a druid which also had a pretty small list they could pick any spell from that list. It is incredibly rare for a wizard to learn as many spells as a cleric always knows in 5e. In one, that seems to be the norm so the weaker list feels worse.
Is a character that has dedicated herself to hunting undead for the church less deserving of the gifts bestowed upon them than the character that has dedicated themselves to healing the sick? (aka Ranger 5/Cleric 1 vs a Cleric 6). Is a relic hunter skulking the dark underbelly of the city attempting to retrieve lost artifacts any less deserving of the blessings of their god? (Aka Rogue 7/Cleric 1). There are many ways to serve a deity so to me, the current "dip" benefits are thematic and allow for flavorful builds.
Whether it is too powerful, I have not found it to be so thus far. If you put a Full Cleric in the party with a Rogue with a dip into cleric, the Cleric still has gains greater benefits from their channel Divinity than the Rogue with just a dip. I use this example because that is the situation in our current party. The level 8 Life Domain Cleric is still out "clericing" the Level 7/1 Rogue/Cleric, but they still gets to feel like a functional member of the church that they are both member of.
These experiences may not reflect those found at other tables, but our group has not found any issues thus far.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Yeah, I don't know what to tell you, I was just talking about game balance haha.
Is a 1 level dip in Cleric worse, the same, or better than a dip into Rogue?
Ignoring specific builds, adventures, roleplaying reasons, ultra combos, and tables, etc. If all other things are equal, that's the question. Does it feel balanced compared to the Bard, Ranger, and Rogue if you only took one level of any of them? It doesn't look like it to me. But I'll find out soon with some tests.
I think one of the best ways WotC could fix the Cleric spell problem would be to let them not need to prepare anything at all.
In 5e, you prepare a number of spells equal to your Wis bonus + your cleric level. In 1DnD you prepare based on you slots. Both average about the same number of spells. The new way just limits you more by spell level.
But the problem is that people don't often take the spells that are more situational. Spells like Purify Food and Drink, and Find Traps aren't going to be chosen except for the most rare circumstances. Even buffs and protective spells like Sanctuary or Beacon of Hope don't get picked as often. Because players know that Spiritual Weapon, Bless, and Healing Word will always be useful. And since they are limited by preparing spells, they are going to pick the ones that have the best chance of being needed. Sadly that sacrifices so much of what a Cleric could be. (These spells are just examples. I use all of them and I'm sure many others do too. I just suspect that the new 1DnD prepared spell lists are all going to look very similar across many tables.)
Personally I would love if Clerics could just cast any spell available to them if they have the slot. It would get more of them used. And it would make sense thematically. If they're going to have a small list of mostly situational spells, the best way to get more variety into games is to remove the preparation restriction. Let Clerics just pray for the miracle they need at the moment.
It makes more sense than telling the sick villager "I'm sorry, my god would love to help you. Tomorrow. I didn't ask for the right spells this morning so they'll need to reschedule."
A level 1 dip in Rogue is bad. A level 1 dip in Rogue just doesn't give enough. You get a conditional extra 1d6 in damage once per round, and expertise. This should be buffed.
A level 1 dip in Ranger is good. Getting Hunter's Mark as always prepared and not having to concentrate on it is good. 2 cantrips and 2 spell slots (and a total of 3 prepared spells) are good. Add in Expertise and it is pretty good dip.
A level 1 dip in Bard is good, better if you want to be the best healer you can be. Bardic inspiration being able to heal as a reaction in combat is great, 2 cantrips and 2 spell slots (2 prepared spells) is good. Add in expertise and it is a solid choice. A Cleric with a dip in Bard is awesome at support thanks to Reaction bonus to Saves (Resistance) that stacks with Bless, Reaction Bonus to skill checks (Guidance), and a Reaction Heal that doesn't require a spell slot. Added bonus, none of these get in the way of casting leveled spells the way bonus action spells do.
A level 1 dip in Cleric is good. You get 2 cantrips and spell slots (2 prepared spells), and Channel Divinity both of which are good. A Healing ability that doesn't take a spell slot is good, it is easily the best part of Divine Spark, but it still takes an action unlike Bardic Inspiration so as far as combat use, it is great when you need it, but not so great that other abilities wouldn't be a better choice. The damage portion of Divine Spark is good, but not great. It doesn't use a spell slot but it is a Constitution Save so not a great choice if you have something better which if you are a Wizard, you most certainly have.
Overall, Cleric is good but Bard is better due to action economy. Ranger is better than a Cleric Dip for Martials unless you don't have a healer and Rogue isn't worth the effort when compared to the other three available thus far.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Number of dice rolled scaling on pb and uses scaling on cleric level is the better option. If you do it the other way at higher levels being stuck at 2d8 it loses viability as a damage dealer. Outside of combat the 2d8 healing six times might be better than 6d8 healing twice since you could use it more efficiently. 6d8 just feels like a viable in combat option at higher levels for healing or for dealing damage.
I disagree. In my mind, a 1 level dip should never increase a player's power over a mono classed character, it should only add in some situational flexibility so no scaling in combat is fine because you retain that out of combat utility to heal post fight in addition to the increased selection of cantrips and level 1 spells.
There is no realistic way to make that happen though. A warlock taking a 1-level dip into sorc is going to turn out wildly different in terms of power than if they took a 1-level dip into ranger. A paladin taking a dip into sorc can massively enhance their spellcasting capabilities while a dip into rogue won't give them much of anything. Every class, subclass, and character is going to gain different amounts and the simple fact is that, even if it DID only give flexibility, for some characters that flexibility is going to translate into a big increase in power. Usually because it gives them something valuable that their base class lacks.
Besides, IMO it really should be the opposite way around. We should be rewarding players for understanding the classes and systems. Not that mono-classing should really fall behind, but it should really be for those who want to dedicate the time and effort; not because we're punishing multi-classers.
It would be difficult, and ultimately potentially impossible... but we could at least limit the gap by scaling things in the game based on class level alone and not PB or character or combined caster levels.
Funny as to me I think 1 level dips should be targeting what the rogue gives. And the rest give far too much.
I like that idea not sure how that would pan out with the whole martial/caster debate going on here and there but it does make a lot of sense.
How about splitting the difference? A Cleric *can* prepare spells for regular fast casting in combat/etc. but *Clerics* specifically can cast all 'known' spells as Rituals during which they are spending most of the time praying to their diety/dieties/whatever for the spell. Call it 'Ceremonial Casting'.