The new Wood Elf also has a Speed of 35'. I don't know why they made this decision for either of them, other than the fact it fits narratively, and maybe they both needed a little something extra. Dark Elves got superior Darkvision, and High Elves got flexible arcane cantrips, so Wood Elves needed something better than just Druidcraft. And they're athletic so it works. Goliaths are... big. So they have a longer stride? Shrug. It sets them apart more from Orcs and it makes them feel bigger without making them Large so I think it's cool.
Cloud Giants use Misty Step and Goliaths get the same ability without it being a spell, so that's nice
Fire Giants... yeah I don't know. I guess flaming weapons are more fun than resistance to fire?
Frost Giants... the same I suppose.
Hill Giants... hit hard? That's all they got other than lore about eating, which would probably be a cooler thing to base a feature on.
Stone Giants catch rocks to take no damage. This is kind of like that? It's mostly just working off the older Goliath's Stone's Endurance feature.
Storm Giants throw lightning so this one makes sense to me.
It is interesting you bring the comparisons up though. These Goliath features might be a peak at what the new Giant's abilities could look like. The current 5e Giants are a little boring in their stat blocks. We might see some abilities work more like these for them in the next book.
They might also decide to just move this Goliath into that book if it tests well. Or put it both places. We don't really know.
After a few games, the Goliath from the UA is a big hit with our group. It has a variety of impactful abilities that reflect the "theme" of species descended of giants. The ability to enlarge themselves was a bit of a miss as it didn't really do anything worthwhile, but it did come in handy when the Goliath Life Cleric was having a bad batch of rolls and couldn't escape from being grappled.
I think it will get positive marks from all the people in my gaming circle.
Would have been nice to be able to give feedback on Goliaths in the recent Survey, hoping it was an oversight and they'll put one out for them shortly.
I don't think they should be able to become large as an ability, I think they should be able to be large as a choice from the start, bring in large PC's, bring in oversized weapons!
My version of the survey asked about goliaths. I told em they need to just pull the trigger on letting people use big weapons. Among other things.
I find it mildly odd that they don't ask for feedback about the fluff. Surely part of what makes a goliath cool is that they... [checks notes] ... Are unencumbered by the internecine conflicts that have ravaged giant-kind for ages, right? Oh, wait, no, that actually sucks. Seriously, the whole blurb is just saying, "goliaths are real big, and they have giant powers, but they're not any particular way, and they don't care about any particular things." Boring!
Maybe this is the result of moving all the lore to settings.
Are we really going to reignite the whole "every species should have extensive lore and if a player breaks it, gets it wrong, or wants to do something different with their character for any reason whatsoever the DM should break their arm, burn their books and ban them from the table forever" argument here, Choir?
Are we really going to reignite the whole "every species should have extensive lore and if a player breaks it, gets it wrong, or wants to do something different with their character for any reason whatsoever the DM should break their arm, burn their books and ban them from the table forever" argument here, Choir?
I certainly hope not! But like, imagine for a moment that instead of what the doc says, it said something like...
Goliaths trace a distant ancestry to giants. In many worlds, giants ruled the land before the smaller folk came, and in these worlds goliaths represent a sliver of that ancient empire that still persists. This might make them venerated, or perhaps feared, by other species. In some cases, goliaths may go out of their way to follow trends in order to distance themselves from the image of antiquity, but others might find the old ways compelling, or wish to learn more about the kingdoms that now lie in ancient ruin. But there are also worlds in which giants walk the lands, either coexisting with, or waging war against the smaller species. In these worlds, goliaths often find themselves forced to pick sides, or acting as intermediaries between the large and the small. And in some worlds, giants never existed at all. Could goliaths still exist in these worlds? Certainly.
I'm not a team of professional writers, but I think that's a decent illustration of how you could give ideas without creating a restrictive "only this and nothing else" framework, right? That makes me want to create a goliath archeologist! That sounds cool and thematic! He wants to set straight the misunderstood history of what he feels are his people, but he doesn't know it all yet! Cool and adventurey! Meanwhile the playtest doesn't give me anything. It even goes out of its way to say you DON'T feel involved in giant wars or whatever. It didn't even choose to say "you might, but you might not" -- it said you don't!
Are we really going to reignite the whole "every species should have extensive lore and if a player breaks it, gets it wrong, or wants to do something different with their character for any reason whatsoever the DM should break their arm, burn their books and ban them from the table forever" argument here, Choir?
Well, they have to have some lore to have identity. Because right now, goliaths are humans, but slightly bigger. And something about giants.
Thought the whole idea was that the lore of a given species would come from the setting book one is using. Both Eberron: Rising from the Last War and Explorer's Guide to Wildemount devote page space to laying out the identity of each of the species common to those lands within the book, as excellent examples of how it should go. As it stood, that lore conflicted with the PHB/source doc lore and DMs would usually discard it in favor of keeping the Boring Faerun Lore, which is deeply frustrating as a player that wants to engage with a given setting properly.
Choir's write-up is fine for the most part, but it also generally makes it clear that all goliaths should be concerned with the doings and goings-on of giants one way or another, with only one throwaway line for "you can ignore it if you have to." Just like how the EEPC set goliaths up as being solely, strictly, ONLY independent-minded hypercompetitive mountain hermits that disdained civilization as being weak. Any other form of goliath was just Incorrect, up until Grog Strongjaw turned the entire species into stereotypical marauding raiders.
I mean, the thing I wanted to make when I saw the doc? A Cloud goliath arcane trickster, using the extra mobility and leaning into the sneaky, deceptive thing for cloud giants while enjoying the whole eight-foot-rogue bit. Goliath rogue with a 'shortsword' most people would consider something else entirely, and with a devil-may-care cavalier attitude that comes from being able to very seriously/literally outrun anything it can't outfight. But according to the EEPC I'm not allowed to do that, and even Choir's write-up frowns pretty heavily on that sort of thing. The 1DD document doesn't care though, which was refreshing. At least, to me.
I don't see why your concept clashes at all with what I wrote. Seems perfectly in line with it to me.
Anyway, point is, these goliaths are very different from any previous goliaths and it's just odd that they're not asking for feedback on that, is all. I think it's the right call to change them this way, but if it were me, I would ask for feedback about it. If for no other reason than to be able to say I did, before committing to such a big change. Is that a criticism? I don't really think I mean it as a criticism. I think old-school goliath fans are scarce enough that my opinion as one of them constitutes a significant portion of their overall opinion, and mine is this: If I don't end up liking the new goliaths, I'll just use the old ones. Wizards can't really offend me on this. It's all good.
I wrote some poems in character as my previous goliath Bard. Maybe I'll post them somewhere on these forums soon.
Thought the whole idea was that the lore of a given species would come from the setting book one is using. Both Eberron: Rising from the Last War and Explorer's Guide to Wildemount devote page space to laying out the identity of each of the species common to those lands within the book, as excellent examples of how it should go. As it stood, that lore conflicted with the PHB/source doc lore and DMs would usually discard it in favor of keeping the Boring Faerun Lore, which is deeply frustrating as a player that wants to engage with a given setting properly.
Choir's write-up is fine for the most part, but it also generally makes it clear that all goliaths should be concerned with the doings and goings-on of giants one way or another, with only one throwaway line for "you can ignore it if you have to." Just like how the EEPC set goliaths up as being solely, strictly, ONLY independent-minded hypercompetitive mountain hermits that disdained civilization as being weak. Any other form of goliath was just Incorrect, up until Grog Strongjaw turned the entire species into stereotypical marauding raiders.
I mean, the thing I wanted to make when I saw the doc? A Cloud goliath arcane trickster, using the extra mobility and leaning into the sneaky, deceptive thing for cloud giants while enjoying the whole eight-foot-rogue bit. Goliath rogue with a 'shortsword' most people would consider something else entirely, and with a devil-may-care cavalier attitude that comes from being able to very seriously/literally outrun anything it can't outfight. But according to the EEPC I'm not allowed to do that, and even Choir's write-up frowns pretty heavily on that sort of thing. The 1DD document doesn't care though, which was refreshing. At least, to me.
About the cloud giant part, that's my main gripe with the goliath - their lineages are all about "deal x damage" and have little to do with actual culture of giants they're related to. I know "default" Faerun lore might be boring, but it kind of summarizes the basis of fantasy archetypes, something to work from when you design for other settings. Because, like I said, the fact that goliaths are just bigger humans that live in the mountains makes the existence of the species look questionable. Are they just orcs reskinned as humans or something more? I hope there's gonna be something more. Like, what makes them different from humans? How exactly are they related to giants, biologically and culturally? How did they come to be? Goliaths need at least this basis. Of course I'm not saying you can't deviate from the base, but the base provides the groundwork for your character's backstory.
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The new Wood Elf also has a Speed of 35'. I don't know why they made this decision for either of them, other than the fact it fits narratively, and maybe they both needed a little something extra. Dark Elves got superior Darkvision, and High Elves got flexible arcane cantrips, so Wood Elves needed something better than just Druidcraft. And they're athletic so it works. Goliaths are... big. So they have a longer stride? Shrug. It sets them apart more from Orcs and it makes them feel bigger without making them Large so I think it's cool.
Cloud Giants use Misty Step and Goliaths get the same ability without it being a spell, so that's nice
Fire Giants... yeah I don't know. I guess flaming weapons are more fun than resistance to fire?
Frost Giants... the same I suppose.
Hill Giants... hit hard? That's all they got other than lore about eating, which would probably be a cooler thing to base a feature on.
Stone Giants catch rocks to take no damage. This is kind of like that? It's mostly just working off the older Goliath's Stone's Endurance feature.
Storm Giants throw lightning so this one makes sense to me.
It is interesting you bring the comparisons up though. These Goliath features might be a peak at what the new Giant's abilities could look like. The current 5e Giants are a little boring in their stat blocks. We might see some abilities work more like these for them in the next book.
They might also decide to just move this Goliath into that book if it tests well. Or put it both places. We don't really know.
After a few games, the Goliath from the UA is a big hit with our group. It has a variety of impactful abilities that reflect the "theme" of species descended of giants. The ability to enlarge themselves was a bit of a miss as it didn't really do anything worthwhile, but it did come in handy when the Goliath Life Cleric was having a bad batch of rolls and couldn't escape from being grappled.
I think it will get positive marks from all the people in my gaming circle.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Would have been nice to be able to give feedback on Goliaths in the recent Survey, hoping it was an oversight and they'll put one out for them shortly.
I don't think they should be able to become large as an ability, I think they should be able to be large as a choice from the start, bring in large PC's, bring in oversized weapons!
Yeah, that was odd.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
My version of the survey asked about goliaths. I told em they need to just pull the trigger on letting people use big weapons. Among other things.
I find it mildly odd that they don't ask for feedback about the fluff. Surely part of what makes a goliath cool is that they... [checks notes] ... Are unencumbered by the internecine conflicts that have ravaged giant-kind for ages, right? Oh, wait, no, that actually sucks. Seriously, the whole blurb is just saying, "goliaths are real big, and they have giant powers, but they're not any particular way, and they don't care about any particular things." Boring!
Maybe this is the result of moving all the lore to settings.
Are we really going to reignite the whole "every species should have extensive lore and if a player breaks it, gets it wrong, or wants to do something different with their character for any reason whatsoever the DM should break their arm, burn their books and ban them from the table forever" argument here, Choir?
Please do not contact or message me.
I certainly hope not! But like, imagine for a moment that instead of what the doc says, it said something like...
Goliaths trace a distant ancestry to giants. In many worlds, giants ruled the land before the smaller folk came, and in these worlds goliaths represent a sliver of that ancient empire that still persists. This might make them venerated, or perhaps feared, by other species. In some cases, goliaths may go out of their way to follow trends in order to distance themselves from the image of antiquity, but others might find the old ways compelling, or wish to learn more about the kingdoms that now lie in ancient ruin. But there are also worlds in which giants walk the lands, either coexisting with, or waging war against the smaller species. In these worlds, goliaths often find themselves forced to pick sides, or acting as intermediaries between the large and the small. And in some worlds, giants never existed at all. Could goliaths still exist in these worlds? Certainly.
I'm not a team of professional writers, but I think that's a decent illustration of how you could give ideas without creating a restrictive "only this and nothing else" framework, right? That makes me want to create a goliath archeologist! That sounds cool and thematic! He wants to set straight the misunderstood history of what he feels are his people, but he doesn't know it all yet! Cool and adventurey! Meanwhile the playtest doesn't give me anything. It even goes out of its way to say you DON'T feel involved in giant wars or whatever. It didn't even choose to say "you might, but you might not" -- it said you don't!
Well, they have to have some lore to have identity. Because right now, goliaths are humans, but slightly bigger. And something about giants.
Thought the whole idea was that the lore of a given species would come from the setting book one is using. Both Eberron: Rising from the Last War and Explorer's Guide to Wildemount devote page space to laying out the identity of each of the species common to those lands within the book, as excellent examples of how it should go. As it stood, that lore conflicted with the PHB/source doc lore and DMs would usually discard it in favor of keeping the Boring Faerun Lore, which is deeply frustrating as a player that wants to engage with a given setting properly.
Choir's write-up is fine for the most part, but it also generally makes it clear that all goliaths should be concerned with the doings and goings-on of giants one way or another, with only one throwaway line for "you can ignore it if you have to." Just like how the EEPC set goliaths up as being solely, strictly, ONLY independent-minded hypercompetitive mountain hermits that disdained civilization as being weak. Any other form of goliath was just Incorrect, up until Grog Strongjaw turned the entire species into stereotypical marauding raiders.
I mean, the thing I wanted to make when I saw the doc? A Cloud goliath arcane trickster, using the extra mobility and leaning into the sneaky, deceptive thing for cloud giants while enjoying the whole eight-foot-rogue bit. Goliath rogue with a 'shortsword' most people would consider something else entirely, and with a devil-may-care cavalier attitude that comes from being able to very seriously/literally outrun anything it can't outfight. But according to the EEPC I'm not allowed to do that, and even Choir's write-up frowns pretty heavily on that sort of thing. The 1DD document doesn't care though, which was refreshing. At least, to me.
Please do not contact or message me.
I don't see why your concept clashes at all with what I wrote. Seems perfectly in line with it to me.
Anyway, point is, these goliaths are very different from any previous goliaths and it's just odd that they're not asking for feedback on that, is all. I think it's the right call to change them this way, but if it were me, I would ask for feedback about it. If for no other reason than to be able to say I did, before committing to such a big change. Is that a criticism? I don't really think I mean it as a criticism. I think old-school goliath fans are scarce enough that my opinion as one of them constitutes a significant portion of their overall opinion, and mine is this: If I don't end up liking the new goliaths, I'll just use the old ones. Wizards can't really offend me on this. It's all good.
I wrote some poems in character as my previous goliath Bard. Maybe I'll post them somewhere on these forums soon.
About the cloud giant part, that's my main gripe with the goliath - their lineages are all about "deal x damage" and have little to do with actual culture of giants they're related to. I know "default" Faerun lore might be boring, but it kind of summarizes the basis of fantasy archetypes, something to work from when you design for other settings. Because, like I said, the fact that goliaths are just bigger humans that live in the mountains makes the existence of the species look questionable. Are they just orcs reskinned as humans or something more? I hope there's gonna be something more. Like, what makes them different from humans? How exactly are they related to giants, biologically and culturally? How did they come to be? Goliaths need at least this basis. Of course I'm not saying you can't deviate from the base, but the base provides the groundwork for your character's backstory.