I'm a bit surprised people are so cheerfully happy with banishment no longer able to perform its, well, namesake. Banishing extraplanar critters back to their home.
Yeah, I honestly don't get why everyone's battling over whether it should or shouldn't allow repeat saves when the real issue with the new version is that it doesn't send extraplanar visitors back to where they came from, instead shoving creatures to a plane depending on an arbitrary list of creature types. Even when the creature in question is native to a different plane than the one its type is 'associated with'.
I think that was just an attempt at cleaning up the wording and closing a PC loophole exploit. It's usually always going to be the same place anyway. It doesn't bother me because it is largely a non-issue. Angels go to heaven, devils go to he'll, tentacle monsters go to scary tentacle world. The fact that the spell isn't going to ever even work that long is a much bigger problem.
I'm a bit surprised people are so cheerfully happy with banishment no longer able to perform its, well, namesake. Banishing extraplanar critters back to their home.
Yeah, I honestly don't get why everyone's battling over whether it should or shouldn't allow repeat saves when the real issue with the new version is that it doesn't send extraplanar visitors back to where they came from, instead shoving creatures to a plane depending on an arbitrary list of creature types. Even when the creature in question is native to a different plane than the one its type is 'associated with'.
I wonder if the reason for this is to avoid any weirdness because the visitor is free to move about and do things when banished back to their home plane in the current version.
And the fact that players on a different plane could use Banishment as a cheap ride home.
Funnily enough though, it's now a great way to get rid of the annoying Satyr in party.
I'm a bit surprised people are so cheerfully happy with banishment no longer able to perform its, well, namesake. Banishing extraplanar critters back to their home.
Yeah, I honestly don't get why everyone's battling over whether it should or shouldn't allow repeat saves when the real issue with the new version is that it doesn't send extraplanar visitors back to where they came from, instead shoving creatures to a plane depending on an arbitrary list of creature types. Even when the creature in question is native to a different plane than the one its type is 'associated with'.
I think that was just an attempt at cleaning up the wording and closing a PC loophole exploit. It's usually always going to be the same place anyway. It doesn't bother me because it is largely a non-issue. Angels go to heaven, devils go to he'll, tentacle monsters go to scary tentacle world. The fact that the spell isn't going to ever even work that long is a much bigger problem.
The problem is when you have angels and demons that are actually native to the Material Plane, like in a number of Magic: The Gathering worlds.
Then the creature type is pretty much meaningless for the purpose of sending them away to a different plane.
I'm not sure I understand the problem. If an angel was born on the Material Plane, the new Banishment would still send them away to one of the good outer planes. From one perspective, that's probably what the PCs want anyways, for it to be gone. If it needs an RP explanation, well I guess their divine souls were so strongly associated with the outer planes that even if they've never been there, it's where the spell send them. Where they are sent is based on the creature type.
The MtG planes do not follow the same default cosmology of D&D. IE - there is no Great Wheel. No inner or outer planes. You only have different Material Planes, where angels, fiends, and fey all hang out equally alongside humans, vampires and dragons.
So, an attempt to banish an angel to "one of the goodly planes" would fail if we were playing in Ravnica, for instance, simply because there are no goodly planes in Ravnica.
Of course, there are still tons of summoning spells in MtG worlds, so they would have to be adjusted to take that into account as well as Banishment. So... YMMV.
What Banishment's perma-banish mode would be useful for in its current version is sending away someone like a planeswalker or Eldrazi in many cases. In Kaldheim, you could make a case for using it to banish anyone who didn't come from your native realm within Kaldheim like a valkyrie from Starnheim or a demon from Immersturm, and Theros obviously is a good fit for it too since it has Nyx and the Underworld.
So some Magic worlds can operate with Banishment and other planar travel spells in a similar manner to typical D&D cosmologies. But for the most part, yeah, it's all one big happy Material Plane family in many of these places.
Well, I was also thinking that we would need to answer "How does Summon Fiend or Conjure Minor Elemental work in these worlds?" first before we tinker with Banishment.
In the case of MtG lore, your answer is "they're duplicate beings comprised entirely of magic" and Banishment would just unravel the magic that made them up.
Ah, I see, thank you! So it's mostly a setting specific issue. I guess they would have to address that in the setting then?
As for the default spell, I think they were trying to close loopholes with better language. But that's not always successful. They've gone through multiple versions of some of the game rules in the UA trying to get them right. It's a good point to note. That kind of feedback helps them see things they missed, or at least think about how to address them where they might be needed elsewhere.
It did make me realize to can banish a Satyr PC to wander the Feywild forever if they annoy you. That should probably be cleaned up at least. XD
I'm a bit surprised people are so cheerfully happy with banishment no longer able to perform its, well, namesake. Banishing extraplanar critters back to their home.
Yeah, I honestly don't get why everyone's battling over whether it should or shouldn't allow repeat saves when the real issue with the new version is that it doesn't send extraplanar visitors back to where they came from, instead shoving creatures to a plane depending on an arbitrary list of creature types. Even when the creature in question is native to a different plane than the one its type is 'associated with'.
I wonder if the reason for this is to avoid any weirdness because the visitor is free to move about and do things when banished back to their home plane in the current version.
And the fact that players on a different plane could use Banishment as a cheap ride home.
Funnily enough though, it's now a great way to get rid of the annoying Satyr in party.
I guess, but a return home spell should be significantly lower in level than a plane hop spell anyways. And its not like there is any control on where you arrive, just your home plane. The party does not even have to arrive in the same location.
I think the easiest fix is to change '1 minute' to 'X damage'. For example:
You attempt to send one creature that you can see within range to another plane of existence. The target must succeed on a Charisma Saving Throw or be transported to a harmless demiplane for the duration. The target can willingly fail the save.
While in the demiplane, the target is Incapacitated. At the end of each of its turns, the target can repeat the save, ending the Spell on itself on a success. When the Spell ends on the target, it reappears in the space it left or in the nearest unoccupied space if that space is occupied.
If the Spell lasts on the target for 1 minute and the target is an Aberration, a Celestial, an Elemental, a Fey, or a Fiend, the target also takes 4d10 (22) force damage at the start of each of its turns while on the demiplane. If the target would be reduced to 0 hp, the target doesn’t return. It is instead transported to a random location on a plane associated with its Creature Type with 1 hit point, and the spell ends.
At Higher Levels: +1d10 damage (both initial and ongoing) per level above 4.
That's not amazing (single target damage spells rarely are) but it's reasonably likely to accomplish something at least.
The suggestion I made for Banishment was to bring back the extra 30 feet (for a total of 60) and if used on the other planar beings (Elemental, fey fiends, celestials esc.) than it should work like flesh to stone, it sends them to a demi-plane and each turn they roll a save again, after 3 successes they return, after 3 failures they get banished back to their home plane. I kept it the way it was in the playtest for non-planar beings. It is definitely more specialized this way AND it doesn't have a 1 fail save or suck, but also doesn't have 1 save and they are good either. It guarantees that if they failed the first save that they are going to be gone for at least 3 rounds, and that is something. It also is better odds than current one for perma banish, but particularly charismatic and resilient other wordly creatures have a better chance at resisting it. Maybe add something like "if you speak the creatures true name it has disadvantage" might me cool thematically.
The suggestion I made for Banishment was to bring back the extra 30 feet (for a total of 60) and if used on the other planar beings (Elemental, fey fiends, celestials esc.) than it should work like flesh to stone, it sends them to a demi-plane and each turn they roll a save again, after 3 successes they return, after 3 failures they get banished back to their home plane. I kept it the way it was in the playtest for non-planar beings. It is definitely more specialized this way AND it doesn't have a 1 fail save or suck, but also doesn't have 1 save and they are good either. It guarantees that if they failed the first save that they are going to be gone for at least 3 rounds, and that is something. It also is better odds than current one for perma banish, but particularly charismatic and resilient other wordly creatures have a better chance at resisting it. Maybe add something like "if you speak the creatures true name it has disadvantage" might me cool thematically.
That's great, actually. Instead of old save-or-suck and the new save-and-win, 3 successes/3 failures looks like a really balanced solution. I like it a lot.
Regarding Clerics' Divine Domain being delayed to level 3, I feel that the opposite direction should have been taken: have all other Classes choose their subclass at first level, during character creation.
Regarding Ardling, the continued emphasis on a celestial origin is at a disconnect with most players' desire to play an humanoid/anthropomorphic animal. Get rid of their ability to cast a cantrip from the Divine spell list and instead give them options for natural weapons a la Shifters and Beast Barbarians.
Regarding Dragonborn, we still need options for Gem, Solar, and Lunar Dragonborn, thus giving options for breath weapons of every damage type.
But nobody is forced to take Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon.
It was an optimal choice, yes, but you didn't have to take it.
Now you won't take Spiritual Weapon. You are "forced" not to play it.
If it becomes concentration it will almost never be played, period, because when you can only choose one concentration spell you will choose the one that gives you the best bang for your buck, which is not Spiritual Weapon. Even Bless, a level 1 spell, is better.
Remember that Clerics already are limited by how many of their spells require concentration. There are very few which actually compete with Spirit Guardians and Bless, except very niche ones like Beacon of Hope or Aura of Vitality which you aren't using all the time.
Of course, no one forces you to use a specific combo, just as no one forces you to use a spell in the understanding that it is superior to another. I mean, what you say about not using Spiritual Weapons would apply to this: "It was an optimal choice, yes, but you didn't have to take it." That is, you are answering yourself.
But seriously. Spiritual Weapon has use even though it uses concentration. You simply have to decide to use one or the other, and it will depend on the situation and what you intend to achieve with the spell. Do you think Spirit Guardians is better? Ok, I have nothing against that opinion. Then you will use Spirit Guardians, and you will not use Spiritual Weapon (you will never prepare it, in fact, since it seems like a bad option to you). But I assure you that Spiritual Weapon is going to continue to be seen in many builds, and situations. The autoplay simply will not be the SW + SG combo, since they cannot be used together.
I just hope they give the cleric more options outside of those two spells and bless. That they have more options to choose from, but that they have to choose according to the situation and what they want to achieve.
I will always be in favor of limiting autoplay, and the things that must be chosen to play optimally. That is, I am against "Must" things. And this change is in that line, so it seems correct to me.
The suggestion I made for Banishment was to bring back the extra 30 feet (for a total of 60) and if used on the other planar beings (Elemental, fey fiends, celestials esc.) than it should work like flesh to stone, it sends them to a demi-plane and each turn they roll a save again, after 3 successes they return, after 3 failures they get banished back to their home plane. I kept it the way it was in the playtest for non-planar beings. It is definitely more specialized this way AND it doesn't have a 1 fail save or suck, but also doesn't have 1 save and they are good either. It guarantees that if they failed the first save that they are going to be gone for at least 3 rounds, and that is something. It also is better odds than current one for perma banish, but particularly charismatic and resilient other wordly creatures have a better chance at resisting it. Maybe add something like "if you speak the creatures true name it has disadvantage" might me cool thematically.
I think this is the ideal option, but I can understand that it might not be the direction they would want to go with OneDnD, since it requires the DM to track an additional element... the focus in many cases seems to be simplifying the game.
So while I would be fine with this idea and honestly I think it's the most elegant solution, I don't expect this to be the solution that they'll go for. I am kind of intrigued by Pentagruel's suggestion of dealing damage each round. I actually don't think dealing damage is a good idea, but I think there could be room to do something like the Sleep spell, where you roll a big handful of dice to calculate a damage threshold, and the spell insta-banishes any extra-planar being caught by it with less HP than the number rolled. Prevents players from just banishing the biggest enemy on the board on round one, but still gives tactical value to when you target a creature to try and get rid of them.
Regarding Dragonborn, we still need options for Gem, Solar, and Lunar Dragonborn, thus giving options for breath weapons of every damage type.
If you're going to include dragons like from spelljammer, then we need to include Faerie /moonstone dragons, how to upgrade metallic breath weapons to inflicting the status ailments, purple and brown chromatic dragons, and shadow dragons too.
Another point I'd like to bring up: Clerics now have full access to all of the Smite spells. Feels weird. I think they far better suit the Paladin.
Edit: also just noticed that all of the healing spells are now Abjuration, instead of Evocation. Overall I think it makes sense. Kind of like how in the Elder Scrolls, warding and defence spells are part of the Restoration school.
Another point I'd like to bring up: Clerics now have full access to all of the Smite spells. Feels weird. I think they far better suit the Paladin.
Edit: also just noticed that all of the healing spells are now Abjuration, instead of Evocation. Overall I think it makes sense. Kind of like how in the Elder Scrolls, warding and defence spells are part of the Restoration school.
Indeed, this cleric has many paladin things. Or rather, there were actually some cleric subclasses that were very paladin-like before. Now those things no longer depend on the subclass (armor and weapons, Divine Strike AKA Blessed Strikes, etc...), but are open to any cleric. Even the name of things sounds a bit like a paladin (Holy Order, Smite undead or Blessed Strikes).
Mechanically I like this cleric. However, it is true that thematically it blurs a bit. But it will be a matter of getting used to it I guess.
Another point I'd like to bring up: Clerics now have full access to all of the Smite spells. Feels weird. I think they far better suit the Paladin.
Edit: also just noticed that all of the healing spells are now Abjuration, instead of Evocation. Overall I think it makes sense. Kind of like how in the Elder Scrolls, warding and defence spells are part of the Restoration school.
Healing spells are abjuration against death specifically. Damage can lead to your death or at the very least you being knocked unconscious for some time, and healing spells "ward" against that. Not to mention, all the other "healing" spells like the Restoration spells and Aid are abjuration already, so it lines up better on that front.
Also Hallow is now abjuration, and I'm wondering why it wasn't before.
Cleric as a base class seems fine, the Divine Spark and Turn Undead are good though 1st level may be easy to dip and leave now, the Holy Order is good at 2nd level but at 9th level seems weak and should really allow you to either take a new Holy Order or increase the one you currently have somehow.
Life Cleric was not great before but could be decent because of Goodberry and Aura of Vitality, they removed that and gave them nothing so made it arguably the worst Cleric Subclass out of all of them.
Spiritual Weapon downgrade was a kick the balls for everyone who loves their Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians combo. Banishment hurt as well but wasn't as hugely used.
Honestly Cleric is my favourite class in D&D currently but if One D&D goes forward with changes as they've presented, it will move down the list to probably 4th place, but then again that only based on seeing Cleric, Bard, Rogue and Ranger so far so who knows what else will get nerfed.
Well, I finally got around to submitting what was potentially my last 1DnD survey. I wasn't very enthusiastic about it this time around. It's a shame. I really enjoyed our discussions. It's been nice hearing all of your points of view. I'm not sure how much more I'll have to say here. But I wish you all the very best going forward. Much love everyone.
Well, I finally got around to submitting what was potentially my last 1DnD survey. I wasn't very enthusiastic about it this time around. It's a shame. I really enjoyed our discussions. It's been nice hearing all of your points of view. I'm not sure how much more I'll have to say here. But I wish you all the very best going forward. Much love everyone.
Take it easy man, hope you find greater fun in the future.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I think that was just an attempt at cleaning up the wording and closing a PC loophole exploit. It's usually always going to be the same place anyway. It doesn't bother me because it is largely a non-issue. Angels go to heaven, devils go to he'll, tentacle monsters go to scary tentacle world. The fact that the spell isn't going to ever even work that long is a much bigger problem.
And the fact that players on a different plane could use Banishment as a cheap ride home.
Funnily enough though, it's now a great way to get rid of the annoying Satyr in party.
I'm not sure I understand the problem. If an angel was born on the Material Plane, the new Banishment would still send them away to one of the good outer planes. From one perspective, that's probably what the PCs want anyways, for it to be gone. If it needs an RP explanation, well I guess their divine souls were so strongly associated with the outer planes that even if they've never been there, it's where the spell send them. Where they are sent is based on the creature type.
The MtG planes do not follow the same default cosmology of D&D. IE - there is no Great Wheel. No inner or outer planes. You only have different Material Planes, where angels, fiends, and fey all hang out equally alongside humans, vampires and dragons.
So, an attempt to banish an angel to "one of the goodly planes" would fail if we were playing in Ravnica, for instance, simply because there are no goodly planes in Ravnica.
Of course, there are still tons of summoning spells in MtG worlds, so they would have to be adjusted to take that into account as well as Banishment. So... YMMV.
Well, I was also thinking that we would need to answer "How does Summon Fiend or Conjure Minor Elemental work in these worlds?" first before we tinker with Banishment.
In the case of MtG lore, your answer is "they're duplicate beings comprised entirely of magic" and Banishment would just unravel the magic that made them up.
Ah, I see, thank you! So it's mostly a setting specific issue. I guess they would have to address that in the setting then?
As for the default spell, I think they were trying to close loopholes with better language. But that's not always successful. They've gone through multiple versions of some of the game rules in the UA trying to get them right. It's a good point to note. That kind of feedback helps them see things they missed, or at least think about how to address them where they might be needed elsewhere.
It did make me realize to can banish a Satyr PC to wander the Feywild forever if they annoy you. That should probably be cleaned up at least. XD
I guess, but a return home spell should be significantly lower in level than a plane hop spell anyways. And its not like there is any control on where you arrive, just your home plane. The party does not even have to arrive in the same location.
I think the easiest fix is to change '1 minute' to 'X damage'. For example:
That's not amazing (single target damage spells rarely are) but it's reasonably likely to accomplish something at least.
The suggestion I made for Banishment was to bring back the extra 30 feet (for a total of 60) and if used on the other planar beings (Elemental, fey fiends, celestials esc.) than it should work like flesh to stone, it sends them to a demi-plane and each turn they roll a save again, after 3 successes they return, after 3 failures they get banished back to their home plane. I kept it the way it was in the playtest for non-planar beings. It is definitely more specialized this way AND it doesn't have a 1 fail save or suck, but also doesn't have 1 save and they are good either. It guarantees that if they failed the first save that they are going to be gone for at least 3 rounds, and that is something. It also is better odds than current one for perma banish, but particularly charismatic and resilient other wordly creatures have a better chance at resisting it. Maybe add something like "if you speak the creatures true name it has disadvantage" might me cool thematically.
That's great, actually. Instead of old save-or-suck and the new save-and-win, 3 successes/3 failures looks like a really balanced solution. I like it a lot.
Regarding Clerics' Divine Domain being delayed to level 3, I feel that the opposite direction should have been taken: have all other Classes choose their subclass at first level, during character creation.
Regarding Ardling, the continued emphasis on a celestial origin is at a disconnect with most players' desire to play an humanoid/anthropomorphic animal. Get rid of their ability to cast a cantrip from the Divine spell list and instead give them options for natural weapons a la Shifters and Beast Barbarians.
Regarding Dragonborn, we still need options for Gem, Solar, and Lunar Dragonborn, thus giving options for breath weapons of every damage type.
Of course, no one forces you to use a specific combo, just as no one forces you to use a spell in the understanding that it is superior to another. I mean, what you say about not using Spiritual Weapons would apply to this: "It was an optimal choice, yes, but you didn't have to take it." That is, you are answering yourself.
But seriously. Spiritual Weapon has use even though it uses concentration. You simply have to decide to use one or the other, and it will depend on the situation and what you intend to achieve with the spell. Do you think Spirit Guardians is better? Ok, I have nothing against that opinion. Then you will use Spirit Guardians, and you will not use Spiritual Weapon (you will never prepare it, in fact, since it seems like a bad option to you). But I assure you that Spiritual Weapon is going to continue to be seen in many builds, and situations. The autoplay simply will not be the SW + SG combo, since they cannot be used together.
I just hope they give the cleric more options outside of those two spells and bless. That they have more options to choose from, but that they have to choose according to the situation and what they want to achieve.
I will always be in favor of limiting autoplay, and the things that must be chosen to play optimally. That is, I am against "Must" things. And this change is in that line, so it seems correct to me.
I think this is the ideal option, but I can understand that it might not be the direction they would want to go with OneDnD, since it requires the DM to track an additional element... the focus in many cases seems to be simplifying the game.
So while I would be fine with this idea and honestly I think it's the most elegant solution, I don't expect this to be the solution that they'll go for. I am kind of intrigued by Pentagruel's suggestion of dealing damage each round. I actually don't think dealing damage is a good idea, but I think there could be room to do something like the Sleep spell, where you roll a big handful of dice to calculate a damage threshold, and the spell insta-banishes any extra-planar being caught by it with less HP than the number rolled. Prevents players from just banishing the biggest enemy on the board on round one, but still gives tactical value to when you target a creature to try and get rid of them.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
If you're going to include dragons like from spelljammer, then we need to include Faerie /moonstone dragons, how to upgrade metallic breath weapons to inflicting the status ailments, purple and brown chromatic dragons, and shadow dragons too.
Another point I'd like to bring up: Clerics now have full access to all of the Smite spells. Feels weird. I think they far better suit the Paladin.
Edit: also just noticed that all of the healing spells are now Abjuration, instead of Evocation. Overall I think it makes sense. Kind of like how in the Elder Scrolls, warding and defence spells are part of the Restoration school.
[REDACTED]
Indeed, this cleric has many paladin things. Or rather, there were actually some cleric subclasses that were very paladin-like before. Now those things no longer depend on the subclass (armor and weapons, Divine Strike AKA Blessed Strikes, etc...), but are open to any cleric. Even the name of things sounds a bit like a paladin (Holy Order, Smite undead or Blessed Strikes).
Mechanically I like this cleric. However, it is true that thematically it blurs a bit. But it will be a matter of getting used to it I guess.
Makes sense
[REDACTED]
Cleric as a base class seems fine, the Divine Spark and Turn Undead are good though 1st level may be easy to dip and leave now, the Holy Order is good at 2nd level but at 9th level seems weak and should really allow you to either take a new Holy Order or increase the one you currently have somehow.
Life Cleric was not great before but could be decent because of Goodberry and Aura of Vitality, they removed that and gave them nothing so made it arguably the worst Cleric Subclass out of all of them.
Spiritual Weapon downgrade was a kick the balls for everyone who loves their Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians combo. Banishment hurt as well but wasn't as hugely used.
Honestly Cleric is my favourite class in D&D currently but if One D&D goes forward with changes as they've presented, it will move down the list to probably 4th place, but then again that only based on seeing Cleric, Bard, Rogue and Ranger so far so who knows what else will get nerfed.
Well, I finally got around to submitting what was potentially my last 1DnD survey. I wasn't very enthusiastic about it this time around. It's a shame. I really enjoyed our discussions. It's been nice hearing all of your points of view. I'm not sure how much more I'll have to say here. But I wish you all the very best going forward. Much love everyone.
Take it easy man, hope you find greater fun in the future.