Right, this is all going to the reason for my original question:
What are some examples of out of combat utility that a Fighter could have that -
Somewhat keeps up with spellcasters, but
Isn't magic
Doesn't feel like magic
And isn't easily done with a skill or feat that anyone should be able to get?
If a Fighter can use a tool, then everyone can. If a Fighter can intimidate someone by brutally killing an enemy, then a Wizard could do it by disintegrating one. If everyone can do everything, then what's the point in Classes other than flavor?
I'm genuinely asking. I've been thinking about it for days and don't have the answer. I also think that spellcasters absolutely need to be reined in ('nerfed') if the divide is going to be fixed. You can't fix everything with buffs. But people hate nerfs to their favorite classes. Which is why I wonder if backwards compatibility is really a good goal. The whole system could use a bigger change. It's a tough problem to solve.
push their skills to super human levels. Yes a wizard can intimidate someone, but when a martial does with their abilities allow it go further than what is humanly possible. Still base it around normal skills, perception, stealth, intimidate, charm etc but let it go beyond what humans can normally accomplish with skill and attributes alone. So a wizard sneaking and a martial sneaking at some point is so far divorced from each other you no longer worry that anyone can do it.
I'm still not sure that will fly with a lot of people. There is something about the unique DnD genre that implies that all characters are normal people that can access extraordinary power. But they still have to feasibly grow into it because of the level system, or be gifted it from another source. I don't know, it's hard to explain.
In every class in the game, there are mundane powers and supernatural powers. Yes, ever person can do things like intimidate someone, influence them, or inspire them. That's something we can imagine real people doing. Even if it is given a fancy mechanic like inspiration. But as soon as a character wants to leap 100 feet or lift a wagon over their head, it relies on something a little supernatural. It's going to be a trait of your species, a magic spell, or a gift from a God.
That's not saying it always has to be that way. Just that it's how the game always worked. I think a lot of people expect what we are used to.
If I understand what you're saying, then Expertise is almost like that. It gives a character what might be considered superhuman skill at something. But it's still limited by the rules of the mundane world. A high Athletics roll only lets you jump a little further. A high Stealth roll can still be beat by a high enough Perception roll. Or completely outclassed by an Invisibility spell. As soon as a class gets an ability to actually turn invisible in shadows, it's magical in nature.
I don't know. I actually like the Champion subclass for all its flaws. That's how I imagine a mundane Fighter of great skill with no super powers. I could see turning the Champion into the Champion of 'something bigger than them', like a Champion of the gods, or a civilisation. A Hercules type person. But that starts to get into mythological proportions. And their power starts to get justified by divine influence. You could play a Rune Knight or a Paladin if you want magic in your combat. And many people just want to play a farm kid that picked up a sword and just got really good with it. I guess the question that is plaguing me is really - Is there no room for a normal martial hero to grow on par with the normal kid who got a spellbook, without resorting to a different kind of magic?
Maybe, maybe not. I think if it was peppered with enough mundane plus options while it had blatantly super human ones it might satisfy everyone. But no, I don't think a guy who wants to be a just a normal dude incapable of powerful abilities should be on par with a archmage.
Hey dude with a sword how about we give you the ability to paralyze people with a glare. No, no that seems super human, instead make the mage so bad they can't do anything more impressive than swing a sword. That is basically the two options, give the martial more abilities or make the magical mundane if people are unwilling to use magic itself. Do people play D&D to play a mundane fighter, sure. But people also play it to be that archmage who teleports, plane shifts, summons monsters from afar etc. Only at low levels do those two concepts work together.
Outside of combat I'd of been fine with the 4e approach where tons of the spells were shifted to ritual only and anyone could learn a ritual and cast them via the correct skills. But if I read this thread correctly people are saying fighters are unwilling to cast rituals as that is magic and they don't want magic. The only other solution imo is then to boost non magic to super human levels, heroic abilities effectively. Which I personally don't find to be a stretch given how you can damage and kill a 30 foot tall giant clad in plat mail, or a 30 ton dragon etc all with your favorite stick from child hood. And by could I mean you almost assuredly will on repeat with no issue once you are the right level. That realistically is more super human than leaping a hundred feat or paralyzing someone with a glare. We just ignore the absurdity of it.
Yeah I'm just not sure. I for one would enjoy a martial option that felt like Gigamesh, Cú Chulainn, or Rama. I think there is a missing subclass for that kind of superhuman fantasy. I just don't know if it needs to be the only way to do it.
Take Lord of the Rings, just because almost everyone knows it. Aragon, Legolas, and Bard were all just people. Sure, they weren't all human and elves are pretty special in LotR, but they didn't feel like they were doing anything a very skilled warrior couldn't possibly do (in the books, the movies got a little silly with Legolas at times, but he wasn't jumping for miles like the Hulk). These are pretty popular fantasies, in part because they dont need magic. The magic can cheapen the experience for some people. Bard was a dude with what might have been a magic arrow, and a little bird advice, but he slew a dragon with his mundane aim.
And the other problem is making superhuman abilities that don't just feel like more spells. Magic can do anything in DnD. You can reflavor any spell into a martial ability, but then everyone has the same toolkit and it gets boring. Plus there balance issues come into play and you have to limit the martial 'spells' to account for their other features. So they just become half casters with different flavor text.
It's possible... but at what point are you just back at 4e? Where everyone has the same powers with different names?
If a Fighter has a number of dice they can use for special powers. And those powers cause fear, or charm, or let them shatter walls. Then they start to look a lot like spellcasters with spell slots. And their mundane powers being feeling magical. Or magic starts feeling mundane.
Again, I'm just wondering these thing out loud. I've thought about it a lot and don't have answers. So I wonder if anyone else can see a way to maintain some identity between mundane power and magic power, but also give them similar utility.
For me the problem with 4e wasn't everyone having powers its that they all were designed in such a similar format they felt too much alike. I hit for 1 weapon& minor perk aty will I hit at 2 weapon and slightly larger perk for a encounter etc.
If magic is designed totally differently than martial abilities even if there is crossover in effects I think it can work.
Could you give an example of a martial ability that is "designed totally differently" but has cross over effects? As far as I can see we are fundamentally constrained by the d20 Test system. There are only really 3 "totally different" mechanics in the game: attack rolls, saving throws and ability checks.
Every class can use ability checks more or less the same - Rogues, Rangers and Bards are a bit better at them than others but they aren't so radically different that it defines their play style.
Martials (and warlocks) mainly focus on attack roll abilities that deal damage, whereas spellcasters mainly focus on saving throws that impose conditions.
It is already possible to make a spellcaster that does saving throws that deal damage.
So really the only thing left for martials to feel unique is attack rolls that impose conditions (and TBH lots of the newer spells give this functionality to spellcasters already too so even that isn't "totally different" from spells...).
The more I think about it the more I agree with Stegodorkus, because of the comprehensiveness of spells and the move towards all classes being preparation casters there is really no "gap" for martial to fill unless we significantly pare down spell lists.
This is a good explanation of one of the problems. The way the rules work there aren't a lot of options. Anyone should be able to use a skill or a tool, so you can't limit it to martials. Experts already have the best advantage in that field anyway. And skills are all constrained by the range of DCs and what success means. The only way the game could change that is if they give specific examples of what you can do with certain results.
Like - A Persuasion roll of 30 is the same as the Charm effect. An Athletics roll of 30 can make a castle gate explode. A Stealth roll of 30 means you are Invisible.
But everyone can still do any of those with the right proficiencies and Experts will do them all better than any Fighter. And utility spells are still 100% effective instantly with no chance of failure in many cases. But people who want to play a Wizard still want to be able to do fun magic too. They won't want magic to only be for fireballs and summoning.
You can give martials abilities that work like spells, with limited uses and scaling with level, but then they're going to feel like spells. So we're kind of stuck.
I have one idea that might help that I'll write after I make lunch.
If we are going to compare what a caster can do, especially a wizard, and a warrior, at the level of utility outside of combat; the warrior will always lose out. And it is obvious that it has to be so.
Now, and I know this opinion is going to be unpopular, I think the main problem here is not with the warrior. It's in the casters (and especially in the wizard). And it is that in 5e the casters have a lot, a lot of magic. And magic, as it should be, is very powerful. So the warrior does not have to be the best in combat, since magic will always be more powerful. And outside of combat the comparison is absurd.
Additionally, casters have lost many of the limitations they traditionally had, such as wearing armor. And, added to this, the casters, especially the wizard and the sorcerer, have a lot of hit points. So on the one hand you have a character that easily solves a fight with a couple of spells. That from a certain level he does not care about the difference in HP, since not being on the front line he has more than enough. That also, although it is unnecessary, can have a decent AC. And, of course, outside of combat there is no point of comparison. And on the other hand, you have a character that is going to be receiving the aggro and that, on his turn, what he is going to do is hit 3 or 4 times and wait for the next turn.
That's why IMO warriors have to be given more options in combat. Make them really stand out at that, and a player can enjoy making decisions on a caster-like level. And now, the unpopular thing is that I think the casters have to be nerfed. And I'm a caster player mainly, especially wizards. Basically because they have more things to do than hit. But I think they are stronger than they should be and depending on the spells and subclass you choose, they are better warriors than any warrior.
And I highlight it because it is the main idea that I want to convey. In my opinion wizards (and casters by extension) have a lot of HP, have no equipment limitations, and have enough spell slots to spend at will.
Yeah I think there is a lot to this. Casters used to have tons of restrictions. So much so that you were lucky to survive to third level. It was to balance the power of their magic. Understandably it wasn't really fun to have every Wizard die in one hit so people wanted more flexibility. A lot of the easing up on restrictions was warranted and overall probably positive. But now there's not much left to limit them. Especially the way people play now. Even spell slots aren't a problem since few people play dungeon crawls anymore. Casters are full strength almost every fight. And adventures aren't long enough to run out of utility.
But it's really hard to take away people's toys once they've played with them. We are unlikely to go back to pure Vancian magic and no armor any time soon. I very much think caster need a nerf but it's hard to find the places to do it.
And I really don't think that buffs for everyone else is the way to go. It's just more power creep and more room for accidental broken combos. And it makes a challenging adventure even harder to pull off. There are lots of good games to play gods on earth. DnD is just supposed to be different. It's supposed to be the whole hero journey.
Okay so this is my one thought that came up when Knock was mentioned awhile back with a note that it had some drawbacks. That got me thinking. Knock is a great spell.
I love Knock. For one it just feels like very old school DnD because of my early experiences with it. It's a dungeon crawl spell. And even though I don't play a lot of dungeon crawls anymore, the idea still has a special place in my heart.
But the other reason it is great is that there is a price to be paid for casting it. It's loud. Very loud. It could alert monsters to your location. It could raise the suspicions of guards. Having your Rogue pick the lock is always going to be safer. But if you can't do that, there's a spell for it.
Another awesome spell in its design is Friends. People seldom use this cantrip because of its cost. The person you charm with it knows you did something when it ends and they get mad. That's a fantastic spell design. That's what a charm should feel like.
A lot of fantasy and other games have a cost for casting magic. Not a resource to spend. But an in-universe cost to the caster. I don't think DnD is really the place for things like accumulating Madness points, or Corruption, or anything like that outside of certain classes. But I do think that DnD is the perfect place for things that make adventures more unpredictable. The place for heroes to make decisions that work in the moment, but cause more problems down the line.
So the thought of Knock got me considering this angle. What if more spells were written this way? What if magic utility came with an in world cost? Not in resources or philosophical harm. But in things that could lead to more adventure? To wilder stories?
What if every utility spell a Wizard cast was useful, but also not as desirable as just having a skilled character perform the mundane task? A risk for the reward. Magic is a shortcut. And shortcuts can be tricky.
It's possible... but at what point are you just back at 4e? Where everyone has the same powers with different names?
If a Fighter has a number of dice they can use for special powers. And those powers cause fear, or charm, or let them shatter walls. Then they start to look a lot like spellcasters with spell slots. And their mundane powers being feeling magical. Or magic starts feeling mundane.
Again, I'm just wondering these thing out loud. I've thought about it a lot and don't have answers. So I wonder if anyone else can see a way to maintain some identity between mundane power and magic power, but also give them similar utility.
For me the problem with 4e wasn't everyone having powers its that they all were designed in such a similar format they felt too much alike. I hit for 1 weapon& minor perk aty will I hit at 2 weapon and slightly larger perk for a encounter etc.
If magic is designed totally differently than martial abilities even if there is crossover in effects I think it can work.
Could you give an example of a martial ability that is "designed totally differently" but has cross over effects? As far as I can see we are fundamentally constrained by the d20 Test system. There are only really 3 "totally different" mechanics in the game: attack rolls, saving throws and ability checks.
Every class can use ability checks more or less the same - Rogues, Rangers and Bards are a bit better at them than others but they aren't so radically different that it defines their play style.
Martials (and warlocks) mainly focus on attack roll abilities that deal damage, whereas spellcasters mainly focus on saving throws that impose conditions.
It is already possible to make a spellcaster that does saving throws that deal damage.
So really the only thing left for martials to feel unique is attack rolls that impose conditions (and TBH lots of the newer spells give this functionality to spellcasters already too so even that isn't "totally different" from spells...).
The more I think about it the more I agree with Stegodorkus, because of the comprehensiveness of spells and the move towards all classes being preparation casters there is really no "gap" for martial to fill unless we significantly pare down spell lists.
This is a good explanation of one of the problems. The way the rules work there aren't a lot of options. Anyone should be able to use a skill or a tool, so you can't limit it to martials. Experts already have the best advantage in that field anyway. And skills are all constrained by the range of DCs and what success means. The only way the game could change that is if they give specific examples of what you can do with certain results.
Like - A Persuasion roll of 30 is the same as the Charm effect. An Athletics roll of 30 can make a castle gate explode. A Stealth roll of 30 means you are Invisible.
But everyone can still do any of those with the right proficiencies and Experts will do them all better than any Fighter. And utility spells are still 100% effective instantly with no chance of failure in many cases. But people who want to play a Wizard still want to be able to do fun magic too. They won't want magic to only be for fireballs and summoning.
You can give martials abilities that work like spells, with limited uses and scaling with level, but then they're going to feel like spells. So we're kind of stuck.
I have one idea that might help that I'll write after I make lunch.
To be clear I would not suggest its just a DC 30 effect, the Dc would be like 15 or opposing creatures passive perception or whatever. It would be a maneuver you choose like a battle master maneuver you'd have a limited list and can do it X times a short rest, there would be a pool for combat maneuvers and non combat ones, heck if you really want to lean into pillars of play have 3 combat, exploration, social maneuvers all with their own lists and pools of maneuvers. Maybe they all pull from the same use per short rest pool. But by level 20 you'd know like 6 combat, 6 social and 6 exploration maneuvers. As long as enough non absurd ones were in the list with some absurd ones maybe sub class dependent I think it could satisfy most people.
Without a significant buff the option is a significant nerf and you will end up pissing off more people than you please with that imo.
Looking at your cost idea it will bump into the issue friends does which is a incredibly bad cantrip. The cost is so high no one ever uses it for its intended purpose, they may use it while disguised to get people angry at others but they never use it to help in social situations. Knock works because there are a lot of reasons why you may want to open a door other than being sneaky, and generally you will still have the rogue do it so its almost always last ditch. If your answer is always screw it skills are better you are back at where you started but in reverse.
Okay so this is my one thought that came up when Knock was mentioned awhile back with a note that it had some drawbacks. That got me thinking. Knock is a great spell.
I love Knock. For one it just feels like very old school DnD because of my early experiences with it. It's a dungeon crawl spell. And even though I don't play a lot of dungeon crawls anymore, the idea still has a special place in my heart.
But the other reason it is great is that there is a price to be paid for casting it. It's loud. Very loud. It could alert monsters to your location. It could raise the suspicions of guards. Having your Rogue pick the lock is always going to be safer. But if you can't do that, there's a spell for it.
Another awesome spell in its design is Friends. People seldom use this cantrip because of its cost. The person you charm with it knows you did something when it ends and they get mad. That's a fantastic spell design. That's what a charm should feel like.
A lot of fantasy and other games have a cost for casting magic. Not a resource to spend. But an in-universe cost to the caster. I don't think DnD is really the place for things like accumulating Madness points, or Corruption, or anything like that outside of certain classes. But I do think that DnD is the perfect place for things that make adventures more unpredictable. The place for heroes to make decisions that work in the moment, but cause more problems down the line.
So the thought of Knock got me considering this angle. What if more spells were written this way? What if magic utility came with an in world cost? Not in resources or philosophical harm. But in things that could lead to more adventure? To wilder stories?
What if every utility spell a Wizard cast was useful, but also not as desirable as just having a skilled character perform the mundane task? A risk for the reward. Magic is a shortcut. And shortcuts can be tricky.
I like it. Knock is rarely used because just about every spell is better, but it's also perfect because it gives casters versatility without overshadowing Rogue. I can already imagine costs to various spells.
Briefly surrounded by silvery mist, you teleport up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space that you can see. The experience causes you to sh*t your pants. Don't wanna sh*t your pants? Play a Monk next time.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
It's possible... but at what point are you just back at 4e? Where everyone has the same powers with different names?
If a Fighter has a number of dice they can use for special powers. And those powers cause fear, or charm, or let them shatter walls. Then they start to look a lot like spellcasters with spell slots. And their mundane powers being feeling magical. Or magic starts feeling mundane.
Again, I'm just wondering these thing out loud. I've thought about it a lot and don't have answers. So I wonder if anyone else can see a way to maintain some identity between mundane power and magic power, but also give them similar utility.
For me the problem with 4e wasn't everyone having powers its that they all were designed in such a similar format they felt too much alike. I hit for 1 weapon& minor perk aty will I hit at 2 weapon and slightly larger perk for a encounter etc.
If magic is designed totally differently than martial abilities even if there is crossover in effects I think it can work.
Could you give an example of a martial ability that is "designed totally differently" but has cross over effects? As far as I can see we are fundamentally constrained by the d20 Test system. There are only really 3 "totally different" mechanics in the game: attack rolls, saving throws and ability checks.
Every class can use ability checks more or less the same - Rogues, Rangers and Bards are a bit better at them than others but they aren't so radically different that it defines their play style.
Martials (and warlocks) mainly focus on attack roll abilities that deal damage, whereas spellcasters mainly focus on saving throws that impose conditions.
It is already possible to make a spellcaster that does saving throws that deal damage.
So really the only thing left for martials to feel unique is attack rolls that impose conditions (and TBH lots of the newer spells give this functionality to spellcasters already too so even that isn't "totally different" from spells...).
The more I think about it the more I agree with Stegodorkus, because of the comprehensiveness of spells and the move towards all classes being preparation casters there is really no "gap" for martial to fill unless we significantly pare down spell lists.
This is a good explanation of one of the problems. The way the rules work there aren't a lot of options. Anyone should be able to use a skill or a tool, so you can't limit it to martials. Experts already have the best advantage in that field anyway. And skills are all constrained by the range of DCs and what success means. The only way the game could change that is if they give specific examples of what you can do with certain results.
Like - A Persuasion roll of 30 is the same as the Charm effect. An Athletics roll of 30 can make a castle gate explode. A Stealth roll of 30 means you are Invisible.
But everyone can still do any of those with the right proficiencies and Experts will do them all better than any Fighter. And utility spells are still 100% effective instantly with no chance of failure in many cases. But people who want to play a Wizard still want to be able to do fun magic too. They won't want magic to only be for fireballs and summoning.
You can give martials abilities that work like spells, with limited uses and scaling with level, but then they're going to feel like spells. So we're kind of stuck.
I have one idea that might help that I'll write after I make lunch.
To be clear I would not suggest its just a DC 30 effect, the Dc would be like 15 or opposing creatures passive perception or whatever. It would be a maneuver you choose like a battle master maneuver you'd have a limited list and can do it X times a short rest, there would be a pool for combat maneuvers and non combat ones, heck if you really want to lean into pillars of play have 3 combat, exploration, social maneuvers all with their own lists and pools of maneuvers. Maybe they all pull from the same use per short rest pool. But by level 20 you'd know like 6 combat, 6 social and 6 exploration maneuvers. As long as enough non absurd ones were in the list with some absurd ones maybe sub class dependent I think it could satisfy most people.
Without a significant buff the option is a significant nerf and you will end up pissing off more people than you please with that imo.
Looking at your cost idea it will bump into the issue friends does which is a incredibly bad cantrip. The cost is so high no one ever uses it for its intended purpose, they may use it while disguised to get people angry at others but they never use it to help in social situations. Knock works because there are a lot of reasons why you may want to open a door other than being sneaky, and generally you will still have the rogue do it so its almost always last ditch. If your answer is always screw it skills are better you are back at where you started but in reverse.
No problem, the DC 30 was just an example. But what you're talking about with dice pools and specific powers they can pull off just really sounds like another form of magic to me. It wouldn't have to be flavored that way, but it would feel like the same thing to me. I can do that now by reflavoring spells.
I understand what you're saying about spell costs. It would have to be carefully done not to tip the balance another way. But I'm not saying skills should always be better. I'm saying they should be just as viable, but in different situations. The spell is still going to always work. Skills could just be made more viable if the spell equivalent could sometimes have situational drawbacks. Knock is great. Even if your Rogue failed to pick it, the Fighter failed to bash it down, or neither of them are present, Knock works. That's an advantage in situations where you are either out of options or don't care if you make a lot of noise. Both the spell and the skills would be viable and useful to have.
Friends is great spell design because of the drawback. I know people don't use it, but it does have good uses. I wouldn't leave it the exactly the same. I think it could use a slightly longer duration, like 10 minutes. Or maybe have it last an hour, but only have the effect of shifting their attitude to Friendly. Not a complete Charm, but close. But the cost of it is an awesome way to make the spell not always superior to a charisma checks. That's what I'd love to see.
This is going to probably sound flippant but it really isn't meant to be. I'm genuinely curious what people think.
What are some examples of out of combat utility that a Fighter could have that -
Somewhat keeps up with spellcasters, but
Isn't magic
Doesn't feel like magic
And isn't easily done with a skill or feat that anyone should be able to get?
Additionally, what are some combat abilities that a Fighter could have that -
Somewhat keeps up with spellcasters, but
Isn't magic
Doesn't feel like magic
And doesn't look overly superhuman?
I ask because I know a lot of people want it. But I can't imagine many examples that don't just feel like more magic, or some anime/superhero/demigod stuff. Those kinds of ideas are easy. We could fill many books with them. But not everyone wants that in the game as the base martial class. So I'm curious if anyone can come up with examples that do what they want while still feeling like a mortal warrior might accomplish them.
It should look superhuman. This is high fantasy. One guy just threw fire out of his hand. D&D characters constantly do stuff out of action movies. The simplistic way to give fighters combat utility is to make it more of a threat to leave their melee range, give all fighters combat maneuvers with special ones for each subclass and battle master getting more uses and large die, or give them special opportunity abilities that don’t use their reaction, but don’t cause damage. Just make it it so they can only use one of these opportunity abilities or a reaction per turn. These special opportunity abilities would be things like
Pressure- if a creature attempts to move at least 5ft away from you they must make a dex save DC 8+PB+Str or Dex on a failure the creature losses half its movement speed, on success the creature only loses 5ft of movement.
Tussle - If a creature tries to move at least 5ft away from you they must make an opposed checked athletics or acrobatics if the creature fails the check they cannot move away from you this turn.
Expose: When you hit a creature with a weapon attack you can create an opening for your Ally. The next ally who could see your attack to attack the creature gets a +1 to hit.
Cover- When you and an ally within five feet of you take damage from the same area of effect you can reduce the damage the ally takes by half and increase the damage you take by the same amount. This does not work for gas based effects such as cloud kill.
Im sure their are more but these are off the top of my head.
Out of combat utility could be accomplished by giving some weapons the siege weapon property when used by warrior group. There were a bunch of utility maneuvers added so if all fighters had access to those as well it could help.
It's possible... but at what point are you just back at 4e? Where everyone has the same powers with different names?
If a Fighter has a number of dice they can use for special powers. And those powers cause fear, or charm, or let them shatter walls. Then they start to look a lot like spellcasters with spell slots. And their mundane powers being feeling magical. Or magic starts feeling mundane.
Again, I'm just wondering these thing out loud. I've thought about it a lot and don't have answers. So I wonder if anyone else can see a way to maintain some identity between mundane power and magic power, but also give them similar utility.
For me the problem with 4e wasn't everyone having powers its that they all were designed in such a similar format they felt too much alike. I hit for 1 weapon& minor perk aty will I hit at 2 weapon and slightly larger perk for a encounter etc.
If magic is designed totally differently than martial abilities even if there is crossover in effects I think it can work.
Could you give an example of a martial ability that is "designed totally differently" but has cross over effects? As far as I can see we are fundamentally constrained by the d20 Test system. There are only really 3 "totally different" mechanics in the game: attack rolls, saving throws and ability checks.
Every class can use ability checks more or less the same - Rogues, Rangers and Bards are a bit better at them than others but they aren't so radically different that it defines their play style.
Martials (and warlocks) mainly focus on attack roll abilities that deal damage, whereas spellcasters mainly focus on saving throws that impose conditions.
It is already possible to make a spellcaster that does saving throws that deal damage.
So really the only thing left for martials to feel unique is attack rolls that impose conditions (and TBH lots of the newer spells give this functionality to spellcasters already too so even that isn't "totally different" from spells...).
The more I think about it the more I agree with Stegodorkus, because of the comprehensiveness of spells and the move towards all classes being preparation casters there is really no "gap" for martial to fill unless we significantly pare down spell lists.
This is a good explanation of one of the problems. The way the rules work there aren't a lot of options. Anyone should be able to use a skill or a tool, so you can't limit it to martials. Experts already have the best advantage in that field anyway. And skills are all constrained by the range of DCs and what success means. The only way the game could change that is if they give specific examples of what you can do with certain results.
Like - A Persuasion roll of 30 is the same as the Charm effect. An Athletics roll of 30 can make a castle gate explode. A Stealth roll of 30 means you are Invisible.
But everyone can still do any of those with the right proficiencies and Experts will do them all better than any Fighter. And utility spells are still 100% effective instantly with no chance of failure in many cases. But people who want to play a Wizard still want to be able to do fun magic too. They won't want magic to only be for fireballs and summoning.
You can give martials abilities that work like spells, with limited uses and scaling with level, but then they're going to feel like spells. So we're kind of stuck.
I have one idea that might help that I'll write after I make lunch.
To be clear I would not suggest its just a DC 30 effect, the Dc would be like 15 or opposing creatures passive perception or whatever. It would be a maneuver you choose like a battle master maneuver you'd have a limited list and can do it X times a short rest, there would be a pool for combat maneuvers and non combat ones, heck if you really want to lean into pillars of play have 3 combat, exploration, social maneuvers all with their own lists and pools of maneuvers. Maybe they all pull from the same use per short rest pool. But by level 20 you'd know like 6 combat, 6 social and 6 exploration maneuvers. As long as enough non absurd ones were in the list with some absurd ones maybe sub class dependent I think it could satisfy most people.
Without a significant buff the option is a significant nerf and you will end up pissing off more people than you please with that imo.
Looking at your cost idea it will bump into the issue friends does which is a incredibly bad cantrip. The cost is so high no one ever uses it for its intended purpose, they may use it while disguised to get people angry at others but they never use it to help in social situations. Knock works because there are a lot of reasons why you may want to open a door other than being sneaky, and generally you will still have the rogue do it so its almost always last ditch. If your answer is always screw it skills are better you are back at where you started but in reverse.
No problem, the DC 30 was just an example. But what you're talking about with dice pools and specific powers they can pull off just really sounds like another form of magic to me. It wouldn't have to be flavored that way, but it would feel like the same thing to me. I can do that now by reflavoring spells.
I understand what you're saying about spell costs. It would have to be carefully done not to tip the balance another way. But I'm not saying skills should always be better. I'm saying they should be just as viable, but in different situations. The spell is still going to always work. Skills could just be made more viable if the spell equivalent could sometimes have situational drawbacks. Knock is great. Even if your Rogue failed to pick it, the Fighter failed to bash it down, or neither of them are present, Knock works. That's an advantage in situations where you are either out of options or don't care if you make a lot of noise. Both the spell and the skills would be viable and useful to have.
Friends is great spell design because of the drawback. I know people don't use it, but it does have good uses. I wouldn't leave it the exactly the same. I think it could use a slightly longer duration, like 10 minutes. Or maybe have it last an hour, but only have the effect of shifting their attitude to Friendly. Not a complete Charm, but close. But the cost of it is an awesome way to make the spell not always superior to a charisma checks. That's what I'd love to see.
Do the current battle master maneuvers just feel like magic? If not why would the same mechanic but somewhat enhanced feel like magic.
As for the drawbacks, friends is absolute terrible design because again no one uses it. Even people who made the mistake of taking friends don't use it. It is actively worse to use than to not use it. Just using the skill is always better. With the one exception of casting something like change self first but then that would have to have some drawback which made it something you'd never use etc.
As for the drawbacks, friends is absolute terrible design because again no one uses it. Even people who made the mistake of taking friends don't use it. It is actively worse to use than to not use it. Just using the skill is always better. With the one exception of casting something like change self first but then that would have to have some drawback which made it something you'd never use etc.
Friends is poorly designed in relation to the rest of spells available to casters. Stegodorkus is saying that (a buffed version of) friends should become the new standard for spells.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I try not to crap on them, because a lot of people like them, but honestly I really don't like Battle Master Maneuvers. I don't like that they have a dice pool. I don't like that they mostly cover things that any Fighter should just normally be able to do naturally. Or anyone else for that matter. I don't like how convoluted some of them are trying to be balanced but just ending up sad. I think they were a neat idea that was badly implemented and clunky for lackluster results. I really don't want them to be the default for those reasons. But since so many others love them, and I'm just one person, I'm okay with conceeding to the majority.
If they were to be expanded to include different utility abilities and superhuman feats, then yes I do think they would start to feel like spells. Because I never thought most of them should be limited to any class or subclass at all. Everyone should be able to try to disarm someone. So to make them unique and powerful, you'd have to make them something no normal person could do. And then you have to ensure their uses are still limited. And at that point they are just spells with a new coat of paint.
But that's just my feelings on it. I'm not opposed to changing the game in any direction that make people happy. I was just wondering if there is any way, using the current mechanics, to make a martial feel as powerful or versatile as a caster, without resorting to superhuman powers. It looks like your answer is no. And that's totally cool. It's just something I've been thinking about and trying to find a different solution to. I think the best way might be limiting spellcasters in an interesting way.
Okay so this is my one thought that came up when Knock was mentioned awhile back with a note that it had some drawbacks. That got me thinking. Knock is a great spell.
I love Knock. For one it just feels like very old school DnD because of my early experiences with it. It's a dungeon crawl spell. And even though I don't play a lot of dungeon crawls anymore, the idea still has a special place in my heart.
But the other reason it is great is that there is a price to be paid for casting it. It's loud. Very loud. It could alert monsters to your location. It could raise the suspicions of guards. Having your Rogue pick the lock is always going to be safer. But if you can't do that, there's a spell for it.
Another awesome spell in its design is Friends. People seldom use this cantrip because of its cost. The person you charm with it knows you did something when it ends and they get mad. That's a fantastic spell design. That's what a charm should feel like.
A lot of fantasy and other games have a cost for casting magic. Not a resource to spend. But an in-universe cost to the caster. I don't think DnD is really the place for things like accumulating Madness points, or Corruption, or anything like that outside of certain classes. But I do think that DnD is the perfect place for things that make adventures more unpredictable. The place for heroes to make decisions that work in the moment, but cause more problems down the line.
So the thought of Knock got me considering this angle. What if more spells were written this way? What if magic utility came with an in world cost? Not in resources or philosophical harm. But in things that could lead to more adventure? To wilder stories?
What if every utility spell a Wizard cast was useful, but also not as desirable as just having a skilled character perform the mundane task? A risk for the reward. Magic is a shortcut. And shortcuts can be tricky.
Actually, a really great idea. Messing with reality should have costs and side effects. As much as I love using mind-affecting magic, if charming could simply force NPCs into becoming allies without repercussions, that would kill the investigation and intrigue aspects of the game. Like, you don't need to win the favor of an NPC by favors or blackmail, you can do it for the price of a spell slot! Same reason why I consider all magic to be easily noticeable, so that you can't get away with publicly using magic (that's what sorcerer's subtle spell is for).
It's possible... but at what point are you just back at 4e? Where everyone has the same powers with different names?
If a Fighter has a number of dice they can use for special powers. And those powers cause fear, or charm, or let them shatter walls. Then they start to look a lot like spellcasters with spell slots. And their mundane powers being feeling magical. Or magic starts feeling mundane.
Again, I'm just wondering these thing out loud. I've thought about it a lot and don't have answers. So I wonder if anyone else can see a way to maintain some identity between mundane power and magic power, but also give them similar utility.
For me the problem with 4e wasn't everyone having powers its that they all were designed in such a similar format they felt too much alike. I hit for 1 weapon& minor perk aty will I hit at 2 weapon and slightly larger perk for a encounter etc.
If magic is designed totally differently than martial abilities even if there is crossover in effects I think it can work.
Could you give an example of a martial ability that is "designed totally differently" but has cross over effects? As far as I can see we are fundamentally constrained by the d20 Test system. There are only really 3 "totally different" mechanics in the game: attack rolls, saving throws and ability checks.
Every class can use ability checks more or less the same - Rogues, Rangers and Bards are a bit better at them than others but they aren't so radically different that it defines their play style.
Martials (and warlocks) mainly focus on attack roll abilities that deal damage, whereas spellcasters mainly focus on saving throws that impose conditions.
It is already possible to make a spellcaster that does saving throws that deal damage.
So really the only thing left for martials to feel unique is attack rolls that impose conditions (and TBH lots of the newer spells give this functionality to spellcasters already too so even that isn't "totally different" from spells...).
The more I think about it the more I agree with Stegodorkus, because of the comprehensiveness of spells and the move towards all classes being preparation casters there is really no "gap" for martial to fill unless we significantly pare down spell lists.
A lot of it might fall under conditions, but intimidates that can paralyze people, freeze them in their tracks so to speak. For stealth hiding in plain sight. Perception, seeing through illusions, or accurate targeting of enemies while blinded.
This is just giving it minutes of thought so I doubt they will be bangers. And some skill swill have more or none as again I'm only taking minutes.
Athletics, super human jumping, grappling things more than one size larger than you, improved conditions while grappling, reduced penalties while grappling, the old bend bars lift gates of earlier editions on steroids, smashing through even magically locked doors.
Acrobatics falling from greater heights, avoiding attacks of opportunity, i don't know what else, running on water maybe.
sleight of hand, steal equipped items,
stealth hide in plain sight, at least reduce requirements to sneak, don't automatically reveal location once you attack instead put some penalty to reduce the odds you are hidden.
Arcana use items you normally couldn't based on class group
History, i got nothing.
Investigation, movie sherlock holmes level stuff.
Nature some benefit with poisons
religion, some kind of protection vs undead/demons devils
Animal handling ability to calm animal intelligence creatures of all kinds.
Insight, again nothing
Medicine, give a recently dead person another death save to pull through.
Perception, see through things that obscure vision or at least target through it without penalty.
Survival ability to survive and not take damage in exotic conditions like elemental plane of fire.
Deception suggestion level effects.
Intimidate paralyze, fear effects.
Performance mass charm effects.
Persuasion, dominate, charm effects.
The problem here is that most martials don't have very good modifiers for skill checks. Why should a dude with a sword and a +2 Charisma be able to dominate someone with their Persuasion when a Bard with +5 Charisma and Expertise in Persuasion cannot? Why would a barbarian with an axe and no proficiency in Intimadation be able to paralyze a creature in feat when a Warlock with +5 Charisma, Intimitation proficiency and the ability to magically conjure eldritch horrors could not?
Briefly surrounded by silvery mist, you teleport up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space that you can see. The experience causes you to sh*t your pants. Don't wanna sh*t your pants? Play a Monk next time.
What came to mind after reading this, is that Misty Step should only teleport you.. not your weapons, armour, or other equipment. So sure you can teleport out of the jaws of the monster but now you're in nothing but jeans & a t-shirt facing down a purple worm...
As for the drawbacks, friends is absolute terrible design because again no one uses it. Even people who made the mistake of taking friends don't use it. It is actively worse to use than to not use it. Just using the skill is always better. With the one exception of casting something like change self first but then that would have to have some drawback which made it something you'd never use etc.
Friends is poorly designed in relation to the rest of spells available to casters. Stegodorkus is saying that (a buffed version of) friends should become the new standard for spells.
Exactly. Thank you for that clarification for me!
Imagine if Friends lasted 10 minutes. Long enough to get past a guard or bargain with a shopkeep. But not long enough to walk away without a concern in the world. Let's say it moves their attitude to Friendly, but after it runs out, it moves their attitude to Hostile. That's a pretty clean use of the influence mechanics.
Now, it would generally be better for your characters with mundane social skills to take a chance at talking it out first. But in cases when they fail, you have a backup with magic. It's risky because of the drawback, but it can save you in some situations. Both types of characters have something to contribute.
Knock is a good spell design because there are tradeoffs.
A Rogue could pick the lock -
Pros - it's very quiet, very subtle, and basically free
Cons - it looks really suspicious if you're caught, not every party has a Rogue, you can fail the check
A Fighter could force the door open -
Pros - it's basically free
Cons - it's can be noisy, and destructive, leaving behind signs you were there, and could fail
Or a Wizard could cast Knock
Pros - it always works, and can be used on magic locks
Cons - it takes a spell slot, and is very loud
I just think this is great. Every character has a use. You will probably go with mundane solutions at first. But if they fail, you have magic. Or if you don't have time or care about noise, you can go the easy route.
If more spells were like this, I think people would see more value in skills that a martial class could get. For example, having advantage in social checks when dealing with the town guard would be really handy. Better than risking a Charm spell. But if negotiations fail or you're in a hurry, the magic is good too. But as long as most of the utility spells just work, they are going to overshadow mundane solutions.
I like the Haste spell for the same reason. It has a penalty for using it, but only after you got the advantage. Because it's one of the few spells like that, people don't think it's optimal. But if all spells were like it, it would feel pretty good. That's all I'm getting at. Something has to give somewhere for any mundane utility to feel as useful as magic. They don't have to be useful in the same situations. But right now magic is almost always the superior solution, and I think martials suffer because of it.
Briefly surrounded by silvery mist, you teleport up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space that you can see. The experience causes you to sh*t your pants. Don't wanna sh*t your pants? Play a Monk next time.
What came to mind after reading this, is that Misty Step should only teleport you.. not your weapons, armour, or other equipment. So sure you can teleport out of the jaws of the monster but now you're in nothing but jeans & a t-shirt facing down a purple worm...
Hahaha. The best part about this is how many Elves get it. That would tarnish their shiny image a little. XD
Briefly surrounded by silvery mist, you teleport up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space that you can see. The experience causes you to sh*t your pants. Don't wanna sh*t your pants? Play a Monk next time.
What came to mind after reading this, is that Misty Step should only teleport you.. not your weapons, armour, or other equipment. So sure you can teleport out of the jaws of the monster but now you're in nothing but jeans & a t-shirt facing down a purple worm...
And that would basically make the spell useless. Many spells require material components and without those components, you become unable to cast any more spells. If you are a martial that multiclassed or have a racial that gave you the spell, you become unable to do meaningful damage. If you wear heavy armor, your AC severely drops because you are unlikely to have more than 10 dex. At worst, you end up becoming a liability after using the spell if your party members try to protect you; at best, your party members just end up abandoning you because you are more of a liability to protect. Misty Step should not make a character a liability after casting it. If you are in a situation where you are restrained or grappled, it is honestly better to stay grappled/restrained and fight like that rather than use your version of misty step. Hell, you are more useful being swallowed because you can still attack with your weapons from inside. This revision of Misty Step just makes it worthless as a spell.
Nerfs aren't the way in this situation. We should not be making casters less fun to play but buffing martials up to par with casters. And you can do this without causing a buff spiral as long as you keep the caster power level static and simply target that power level when you are buffing martials.
As for the drawbacks, friends is absolute terrible design because again no one uses it. Even people who made the mistake of taking friends don't use it. It is actively worse to use than to not use it. Just using the skill is always better. With the one exception of casting something like change self first but then that would have to have some drawback which made it something you'd never use etc.
Friends is poorly designed in relation to the rest of spells available to casters. Stegodorkus is saying that (a buffed version of) friends should become the new standard for spells.
I understand what he saying I am saying the limit is so huge no one would use it. Its like if it was cast fireball, cost you take 800 damage, would you cast fireball. If the answer is add flaws so outside extreme emergencies a skill is always the better choice you just made magic the weak choice and mundane the strong method. All you've done is flip the power balance to mundane not balance things. Hey mage here is a list of spells you will never use as using them is worse than not using them, have fun being a mage.
Knock is a decent example as its only the worse choice compared to thieves tools and while trying to be stealthy, its not worse than just kicking down the door well outside needing to spend a resource as opposed to just kicking down the door. But there is no way they would do this in a balanced fashion. There are just way too many spells and its not like its shadowrun where there is a cost built in and you really just want to fine tune how much drain is(higher than most the editions in SR as a decent build can almost ignore drain)
And that would basically make the spell useless. Many spells require material components and without those components, you become unable to cast any more spells. Nerfs aren't the way in this situation. We should not be making casters less fun to play but buffing martials up to par with casters. And you can do this without causing a buff spiral as long as you keep the caster power level static and simply target that power level when you are buffing martials.
Nonsense there are still many ways to use the spell, and it would make teamwork even more important. If you needed to misty step in combat better use it to get close to one of your allies that has a backup wand you can grab until the end of the fight. Out of combat you could still Misty Step out of a room through a key hole but you better have an extra casting to teleport back where you were (MS is Verbal only) in case you run into some enemies...
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Maybe, maybe not. I think if it was peppered with enough mundane plus options while it had blatantly super human ones it might satisfy everyone. But no, I don't think a guy who wants to be a just a normal dude incapable of powerful abilities should be on par with a archmage.
Hey dude with a sword how about we give you the ability to paralyze people with a glare. No, no that seems super human, instead make the mage so bad they can't do anything more impressive than swing a sword. That is basically the two options, give the martial more abilities or make the magical mundane if people are unwilling to use magic itself. Do people play D&D to play a mundane fighter, sure. But people also play it to be that archmage who teleports, plane shifts, summons monsters from afar etc. Only at low levels do those two concepts work together.
Outside of combat I'd of been fine with the 4e approach where tons of the spells were shifted to ritual only and anyone could learn a ritual and cast them via the correct skills. But if I read this thread correctly people are saying fighters are unwilling to cast rituals as that is magic and they don't want magic. The only other solution imo is then to boost non magic to super human levels, heroic abilities effectively. Which I personally don't find to be a stretch given how you can damage and kill a 30 foot tall giant clad in plat mail, or a 30 ton dragon etc all with your favorite stick from child hood. And by could I mean you almost assuredly will on repeat with no issue once you are the right level. That realistically is more super human than leaping a hundred feat or paralyzing someone with a glare. We just ignore the absurdity of it.
Yeah I'm just not sure. I for one would enjoy a martial option that felt like Gigamesh, Cú Chulainn, or Rama. I think there is a missing subclass for that kind of superhuman fantasy. I just don't know if it needs to be the only way to do it.
Take Lord of the Rings, just because almost everyone knows it. Aragon, Legolas, and Bard were all just people. Sure, they weren't all human and elves are pretty special in LotR, but they didn't feel like they were doing anything a very skilled warrior couldn't possibly do (in the books, the movies got a little silly with Legolas at times, but he wasn't jumping for miles like the Hulk). These are pretty popular fantasies, in part because they dont need magic. The magic can cheapen the experience for some people. Bard was a dude with what might have been a magic arrow, and a little bird advice, but he slew a dragon with his mundane aim.
And the other problem is making superhuman abilities that don't just feel like more spells. Magic can do anything in DnD. You can reflavor any spell into a martial ability, but then everyone has the same toolkit and it gets boring. Plus there balance issues come into play and you have to limit the martial 'spells' to account for their other features. So they just become half casters with different flavor text.
This is a good explanation of one of the problems. The way the rules work there aren't a lot of options. Anyone should be able to use a skill or a tool, so you can't limit it to martials. Experts already have the best advantage in that field anyway. And skills are all constrained by the range of DCs and what success means. The only way the game could change that is if they give specific examples of what you can do with certain results.
Like - A Persuasion roll of 30 is the same as the Charm effect. An Athletics roll of 30 can make a castle gate explode. A Stealth roll of 30 means you are Invisible.
But everyone can still do any of those with the right proficiencies and Experts will do them all better than any Fighter. And utility spells are still 100% effective instantly with no chance of failure in many cases. But people who want to play a Wizard still want to be able to do fun magic too. They won't want magic to only be for fireballs and summoning.
You can give martials abilities that work like spells, with limited uses and scaling with level, but then they're going to feel like spells. So we're kind of stuck.
I have one idea that might help that I'll write after I make lunch.
Yeah I think there is a lot to this. Casters used to have tons of restrictions. So much so that you were lucky to survive to third level. It was to balance the power of their magic. Understandably it wasn't really fun to have every Wizard die in one hit so people wanted more flexibility. A lot of the easing up on restrictions was warranted and overall probably positive. But now there's not much left to limit them. Especially the way people play now. Even spell slots aren't a problem since few people play dungeon crawls anymore. Casters are full strength almost every fight. And adventures aren't long enough to run out of utility.
But it's really hard to take away people's toys once they've played with them. We are unlikely to go back to pure Vancian magic and no armor any time soon. I very much think caster need a nerf but it's hard to find the places to do it.
And I really don't think that buffs for everyone else is the way to go. It's just more power creep and more room for accidental broken combos. And it makes a challenging adventure even harder to pull off. There are lots of good games to play gods on earth. DnD is just supposed to be different. It's supposed to be the whole hero journey.
Okay so this is my one thought that came up when Knock was mentioned awhile back with a note that it had some drawbacks. That got me thinking. Knock is a great spell.
I love Knock. For one it just feels like very old school DnD because of my early experiences with it. It's a dungeon crawl spell. And even though I don't play a lot of dungeon crawls anymore, the idea still has a special place in my heart.
But the other reason it is great is that there is a price to be paid for casting it. It's loud. Very loud. It could alert monsters to your location. It could raise the suspicions of guards. Having your Rogue pick the lock is always going to be safer. But if you can't do that, there's a spell for it.
Another awesome spell in its design is Friends. People seldom use this cantrip because of its cost. The person you charm with it knows you did something when it ends and they get mad. That's a fantastic spell design. That's what a charm should feel like.
A lot of fantasy and other games have a cost for casting magic. Not a resource to spend. But an in-universe cost to the caster. I don't think DnD is really the place for things like accumulating Madness points, or Corruption, or anything like that outside of certain classes. But I do think that DnD is the perfect place for things that make adventures more unpredictable. The place for heroes to make decisions that work in the moment, but cause more problems down the line.
So the thought of Knock got me considering this angle. What if more spells were written this way? What if magic utility came with an in world cost? Not in resources or philosophical harm. But in things that could lead to more adventure? To wilder stories?
What if every utility spell a Wizard cast was useful, but also not as desirable as just having a skilled character perform the mundane task? A risk for the reward. Magic is a shortcut. And shortcuts can be tricky.
To be clear I would not suggest its just a DC 30 effect, the Dc would be like 15 or opposing creatures passive perception or whatever. It would be a maneuver you choose like a battle master maneuver you'd have a limited list and can do it X times a short rest, there would be a pool for combat maneuvers and non combat ones, heck if you really want to lean into pillars of play have 3 combat, exploration, social maneuvers all with their own lists and pools of maneuvers. Maybe they all pull from the same use per short rest pool. But by level 20 you'd know like 6 combat, 6 social and 6 exploration maneuvers. As long as enough non absurd ones were in the list with some absurd ones maybe sub class dependent I think it could satisfy most people.
Without a significant buff the option is a significant nerf and you will end up pissing off more people than you please with that imo.
Looking at your cost idea it will bump into the issue friends does which is a incredibly bad cantrip. The cost is so high no one ever uses it for its intended purpose, they may use it while disguised to get people angry at others but they never use it to help in social situations. Knock works because there are a lot of reasons why you may want to open a door other than being sneaky, and generally you will still have the rogue do it so its almost always last ditch. If your answer is always screw it skills are better you are back at where you started but in reverse.
I like it. Knock is rarely used because just about every spell is better, but it's also perfect because it gives casters versatility without overshadowing Rogue. I can already imagine costs to various spells.
Misty Step
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self
Components: V
Duration: Instantaneous
Briefly surrounded by silvery mist, you teleport up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space that you can see. The experience causes you to sh*t your pants. Don't wanna sh*t your pants? Play a Monk next time.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
No problem, the DC 30 was just an example. But what you're talking about with dice pools and specific powers they can pull off just really sounds like another form of magic to me. It wouldn't have to be flavored that way, but it would feel like the same thing to me. I can do that now by reflavoring spells.
I understand what you're saying about spell costs. It would have to be carefully done not to tip the balance another way. But I'm not saying skills should always be better. I'm saying they should be just as viable, but in different situations. The spell is still going to always work. Skills could just be made more viable if the spell equivalent could sometimes have situational drawbacks. Knock is great. Even if your Rogue failed to pick it, the Fighter failed to bash it down, or neither of them are present, Knock works. That's an advantage in situations where you are either out of options or don't care if you make a lot of noise. Both the spell and the skills would be viable and useful to have.
Friends is great spell design because of the drawback. I know people don't use it, but it does have good uses. I wouldn't leave it the exactly the same. I think it could use a slightly longer duration, like 10 minutes. Or maybe have it last an hour, but only have the effect of shifting their attitude to Friendly. Not a complete Charm, but close. But the cost of it is an awesome way to make the spell not always superior to a charisma checks. That's what I'd love to see.
It should look superhuman. This is high fantasy. One guy just threw fire out of his hand. D&D characters constantly do stuff out of action movies.
The simplistic way to give fighters combat utility is to make it more of a threat to leave their melee range, give all fighters combat maneuvers with special ones for each subclass and battle master getting more uses and large die, or give them special opportunity abilities that don’t use their reaction, but don’t cause damage. Just make it it so they can only use one of these opportunity abilities or a reaction per turn. These special opportunity abilities would be things like
Pressure- if a creature attempts to move at least 5ft away from you they must make a dex save DC 8+PB+Str or Dex on a failure the creature losses half its movement speed, on success the creature only loses 5ft of movement.
Tussle - If a creature tries to move at least 5ft away from you they must make an opposed checked athletics or acrobatics if the creature fails the check they cannot move away from you this turn.
Expose: When you hit a creature with a weapon attack you can create an opening for your Ally. The next ally who could see your attack to attack the creature gets a +1 to hit.
Cover- When you and an ally within five feet of you take damage from the same area of effect you can reduce the damage the ally takes by half and increase the damage you take by the same amount. This does not work for gas based effects such as cloud kill.
Im sure their are more but these are off the top of my head.
Out of combat utility could be accomplished by giving some weapons the siege weapon property when used by warrior group. There were a bunch of utility maneuvers added so if all fighters had access to those as well it could help.
Do the current battle master maneuvers just feel like magic? If not why would the same mechanic but somewhat enhanced feel like magic.
As for the drawbacks, friends is absolute terrible design because again no one uses it. Even people who made the mistake of taking friends don't use it. It is actively worse to use than to not use it. Just using the skill is always better. With the one exception of casting something like change self first but then that would have to have some drawback which made it something you'd never use etc.
Friends is poorly designed in relation to the rest of spells available to casters. Stegodorkus is saying that (a buffed version of) friends should become the new standard for spells.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I try not to crap on them, because a lot of people like them, but honestly I really don't like Battle Master Maneuvers. I don't like that they have a dice pool. I don't like that they mostly cover things that any Fighter should just normally be able to do naturally. Or anyone else for that matter. I don't like how convoluted some of them are trying to be balanced but just ending up sad. I think they were a neat idea that was badly implemented and clunky for lackluster results. I really don't want them to be the default for those reasons. But since so many others love them, and I'm just one person, I'm okay with conceeding to the majority.
If they were to be expanded to include different utility abilities and superhuman feats, then yes I do think they would start to feel like spells. Because I never thought most of them should be limited to any class or subclass at all. Everyone should be able to try to disarm someone. So to make them unique and powerful, you'd have to make them something no normal person could do. And then you have to ensure their uses are still limited. And at that point they are just spells with a new coat of paint.
But that's just my feelings on it. I'm not opposed to changing the game in any direction that make people happy. I was just wondering if there is any way, using the current mechanics, to make a martial feel as powerful or versatile as a caster, without resorting to superhuman powers. It looks like your answer is no. And that's totally cool. It's just something I've been thinking about and trying to find a different solution to. I think the best way might be limiting spellcasters in an interesting way.
Actually, a really great idea. Messing with reality should have costs and side effects. As much as I love using mind-affecting magic, if charming could simply force NPCs into becoming allies without repercussions, that would kill the investigation and intrigue aspects of the game. Like, you don't need to win the favor of an NPC by favors or blackmail, you can do it for the price of a spell slot! Same reason why I consider all magic to be easily noticeable, so that you can't get away with publicly using magic (that's what sorcerer's subtle spell is for).
The problem here is that most martials don't have very good modifiers for skill checks. Why should a dude with a sword and a +2 Charisma be able to dominate someone with their Persuasion when a Bard with +5 Charisma and Expertise in Persuasion cannot? Why would a barbarian with an axe and no proficiency in Intimadation be able to paralyze a creature in feat when a Warlock with +5 Charisma, Intimitation proficiency and the ability to magically conjure eldritch horrors could not?
What came to mind after reading this, is that Misty Step should only teleport you.. not your weapons, armour, or other equipment. So sure you can teleport out of the jaws of the monster but now you're in nothing but jeans & a t-shirt facing down a purple worm...
Exactly. Thank you for that clarification for me!
Imagine if Friends lasted 10 minutes. Long enough to get past a guard or bargain with a shopkeep. But not long enough to walk away without a concern in the world. Let's say it moves their attitude to Friendly, but after it runs out, it moves their attitude to Hostile. That's a pretty clean use of the influence mechanics.
Now, it would generally be better for your characters with mundane social skills to take a chance at talking it out first. But in cases when they fail, you have a backup with magic. It's risky because of the drawback, but it can save you in some situations. Both types of characters have something to contribute.
Knock is a good spell design because there are tradeoffs.
A Rogue could pick the lock -
Pros - it's very quiet, very subtle, and basically free
Cons - it looks really suspicious if you're caught, not every party has a Rogue, you can fail the check
A Fighter could force the door open -
Pros - it's basically free
Cons - it's can be noisy, and destructive, leaving behind signs you were there, and could fail
Or a Wizard could cast Knock
Pros - it always works, and can be used on magic locks
Cons - it takes a spell slot, and is very loud
I just think this is great. Every character has a use. You will probably go with mundane solutions at first. But if they fail, you have magic. Or if you don't have time or care about noise, you can go the easy route.
If more spells were like this, I think people would see more value in skills that a martial class could get. For example, having advantage in social checks when dealing with the town guard would be really handy. Better than risking a Charm spell. But if negotiations fail or you're in a hurry, the magic is good too. But as long as most of the utility spells just work, they are going to overshadow mundane solutions.
I like the Haste spell for the same reason. It has a penalty for using it, but only after you got the advantage. Because it's one of the few spells like that, people don't think it's optimal. But if all spells were like it, it would feel pretty good. That's all I'm getting at. Something has to give somewhere for any mundane utility to feel as useful as magic. They don't have to be useful in the same situations. But right now magic is almost always the superior solution, and I think martials suffer because of it.
Hahaha. The best part about this is how many Elves get it. That would tarnish their shiny image a little. XD
And that would basically make the spell useless. Many spells require material components and without those components, you become unable to cast any more spells. If you are a martial that multiclassed or have a racial that gave you the spell, you become unable to do meaningful damage. If you wear heavy armor, your AC severely drops because you are unlikely to have more than 10 dex. At worst, you end up becoming a liability after using the spell if your party members try to protect you; at best, your party members just end up abandoning you because you are more of a liability to protect. Misty Step should not make a character a liability after casting it. If you are in a situation where you are restrained or grappled, it is honestly better to stay grappled/restrained and fight like that rather than use your version of misty step. Hell, you are more useful being swallowed because you can still attack with your weapons from inside. This revision of Misty Step just makes it worthless as a spell.
Nerfs aren't the way in this situation. We should not be making casters less fun to play but buffing martials up to par with casters. And you can do this without causing a buff spiral as long as you keep the caster power level static and simply target that power level when you are buffing martials.
I understand what he saying I am saying the limit is so huge no one would use it. Its like if it was cast fireball, cost you take 800 damage, would you cast fireball. If the answer is add flaws so outside extreme emergencies a skill is always the better choice you just made magic the weak choice and mundane the strong method. All you've done is flip the power balance to mundane not balance things. Hey mage here is a list of spells you will never use as using them is worse than not using them, have fun being a mage.
Knock is a decent example as its only the worse choice compared to thieves tools and while trying to be stealthy, its not worse than just kicking down the door well outside needing to spend a resource as opposed to just kicking down the door. But there is no way they would do this in a balanced fashion. There are just way too many spells and its not like its shadowrun where there is a cost built in and you really just want to fine tune how much drain is(higher than most the editions in SR as a decent build can almost ignore drain)
Nonsense there are still many ways to use the spell, and it would make teamwork even more important. If you needed to misty step in combat better use it to get close to one of your allies that has a backup wand you can grab until the end of the fight. Out of combat you could still Misty Step out of a room through a key hole but you better have an extra casting to teleport back where you were (MS is Verbal only) in case you run into some enemies...