It's possible... but at what point are you just back at 4e? Where everyone has the same powers with different names?
If a Fighter has a number of dice they can use for special powers. And those powers cause fear, or charm, or let them shatter walls. Then they start to look a lot like spellcasters with spell slots. And their mundane powers being feeling magical. Or magic starts feeling mundane.
Again, I'm just wondering these thing out loud. I've thought about it a lot and don't have answers. So I wonder if anyone else can see a way to maintain some identity between mundane power and magic power, but also give them similar utility.
For me the problem with 4e wasn't everyone having powers its that they all were designed in such a similar format they felt too much alike. I hit for 1 weapon& minor perk aty will I hit at 2 weapon and slightly larger perk for a encounter etc.
If magic is designed totally differently than martial abilities even if there is crossover in effects I think it can work.
Could you give an example of a martial ability that is "designed totally differently" but has cross over effects? As far as I can see we are fundamentally constrained by the d20 Test system. There are only really 3 "totally different" mechanics in the game: attack rolls, saving throws and ability checks.
Every class can use ability checks more or less the same - Rogues, Rangers and Bards are a bit better at them than others but they aren't so radically different that it defines their play style.
Martials (and warlocks) mainly focus on attack roll abilities that deal damage, whereas spellcasters mainly focus on saving throws that impose conditions.
It is already possible to make a spellcaster that does saving throws that deal damage.
So really the only thing left for martials to feel unique is attack rolls that impose conditions (and TBH lots of the newer spells give this functionality to spellcasters already too so even that isn't "totally different" from spells...).
The more I think about it the more I agree with Stegodorkus, because of the comprehensiveness of spells and the move towards all classes being preparation casters there is really no "gap" for martial to fill unless we significantly pare down spell lists.
A lot of it might fall under conditions, but intimidates that can paralyze people, freeze them in their tracks so to speak. For stealth hiding in plain sight. Perception, seeing through illusions, or accurate targeting of enemies while blinded.
This is just giving it minutes of thought so I doubt they will be bangers. And some skill swill have more or none as again I'm only taking minutes.
Athletics, super human jumping, grappling things more than one size larger than you, improved conditions while grappling, reduced penalties while grappling, the old bend bars lift gates of earlier editions on steroids, smashing through even magically locked doors.
Acrobatics falling from greater heights, avoiding attacks of opportunity, i don't know what else, running on water maybe.
sleight of hand, steal equipped items,
stealth hide in plain sight, at least reduce requirements to sneak, don't automatically reveal location once you attack instead put some penalty to reduce the odds you are hidden.
Arcana use items you normally couldn't based on class group
History, i got nothing.
Investigation, movie sherlock holmes level stuff.
Nature some benefit with poisons
religion, some kind of protection vs undead/demons devils
Animal handling ability to calm animal intelligence creatures of all kinds.
Insight, again nothing
Medicine, give a recently dead person another death save to pull through.
Perception, see through things that obscure vision or at least target through it without penalty.
Survival ability to survive and not take damage in exotic conditions like elemental plane of fire.
Deception suggestion level effects.
Intimidate paralyze, fear effects.
Performance mass charm effects.
Persuasion, dominate, charm effects.
The problem here is that most martials don't have very good modifiers for skill checks. Why should a dude with a sword and a +2 Charisma be able to dominate someone with their Persuasion when a Bard with +5 Charisma and Expertise in Persuasion cannot? Why would a barbarian with an axe and no proficiency in Intimadation be able to paralyze a creature in feat when a Warlock with +5 Charisma, Intimitation proficiency and the ability to magically conjure eldritch horrors could not?
Why can't barbarians cast spells like a warlock?
The same reason a barbarian can't cast spells or a wizard doesn't get a 3rd attack at 11th level would be why spell casters can't do these things. Their heroic leveling goes towards magic not towards enhancing their natural abilities. Though for the bard honestly I don't think they should be spell casters at all. I'd of made them martials with powerful abilities to inspire, control and terrify in a mundane way.
And that would basically make the spell useless. Many spells require material components and without those components, you become unable to cast any more spells. Nerfs aren't the way in this situation. We should not be making casters less fun to play but buffing martials up to par with casters. And you can do this without causing a buff spiral as long as you keep the caster power level static and simply target that power level when you are buffing martials.
Nonsense there are still many ways to use the spell, and it would make teamwork even more important. If you needed to misty step in combat better use it to get close to one of your allies that has a backup wand you can grab until the end of the fight. Out of combat you could still Misty Step out of a room through a key hole but you better have an extra casting to teleport back where you were (MS is Verbal only) in case you run into some enemies...
Your AC and defense are still shot and enemies can now focus you down much more easily. You are actually in a better position restrained, grappled, or even swallowed, especially if you are a martial character that gained access to misty step. Grappled doesn't affect your attack rolls and restrain doesn't prevent you from casting spells and restrained has no effect on your spellcasting if the spell makes no attack rolls. Rather than grab a backup wand.
It isn't nonsense. You become more of a liability and it is honestly better to stay in that position than use misty step if it makes you lose your equipment. Honestly better to be swallowed and fight from the inside and work with your team mates to see if you can make the target vomit you out or just kill it before the acid damage kills you. You are more useful grappled/restrained/swallowed with your equipment than free without your equipment.
Again, nerfs aren't the way in this situation. We should not be making casters less fun to play but buffing martials up to par with casters. And you can do this without causing a buff spiral as long as you keep the caster power level static and simply target that power level when you are buffing martials.
I try not to crap on them, because a lot of people like them, but honestly I really don't like Battle Master Maneuvers. I don't like that they have a dice pool. I don't like that they mostly cover things that any Fighter should just normally be able to do naturally. Or anyone else for that matter. I don't like how convoluted some of them are trying to be balanced but just ending up sad. I think they were a neat idea that was badly implemented and clunky for lackluster results. I really don't want them to be the default for those reasons. But since so many others love them, and I'm just one person, I'm okay with conceeding to the majority.
If they were to be expanded to include different utility abilities and superhuman feats, then yes I do think they would start to feel like spells. Because I never thought most of them should be limited to any class or subclass at all. Everyone should be able to try to disarm someone. So to make them unique and powerful, you'd have to make them something no normal person could do. And then you have to ensure their uses are still limited. And at that point they are just spells with a new coat of paint.
But that's just my feelings on it. I'm not opposed to changing the game in any direction that make people happy. I was just wondering if there is any way, using the current mechanics, to make a martial feel as powerful or versatile as a caster, without resorting to superhuman powers. It looks like your answer is no. And that's totally cool. It's just something I've been thinking about and trying to find a different solution to. I think the best way might be limiting spellcasters in an interesting way.
Fair enough but I do not understand how anyone can look at a dude who can beat a dragon to death with a stick as anything less than insanely super human already. You can get booted off a 1000 foot cliff, turf it and shake it off like its nothing. You can wade through lava in a loin cloth, pull yourself out and beat a fire giant to death. I have never perceived the fighters as just a normal dude with a sword, I can't see how anyone does. I don't find any of my suggestions as any more magical or superhuman than what a fighter already does.
I try not to crap on them, because a lot of people like them, but honestly I really don't like Battle Master Maneuvers. I don't like that they have a dice pool. I don't like that they mostly cover things that any Fighter should just normally be able to do naturally. Or anyone else for that matter. I don't like how convoluted some of them are trying to be balanced but just ending up sad. I think they were a neat idea that was badly implemented and clunky for lackluster results. I really don't want them to be the default for those reasons. But since so many others love them, and I'm just one person, I'm okay with conceeding to the majority.
If they were to be expanded to include different utility abilities and superhuman feats, then yes I do think they would start to feel like spells. Because I never thought most of them should be limited to any class or subclass at all. Everyone should be able to try to disarm someone. So to make them unique and powerful, you'd have to make them something no normal person could do. And then you have to ensure their uses are still limited. And at that point they are just spells with a new coat of paint.
But that's just my feelings on it. I'm not opposed to changing the game in any direction that make people happy. I was just wondering if there is any way, using the current mechanics, to make a martial feel as powerful or versatile as a caster, without resorting to superhuman powers. It looks like your answer is no. And that's totally cool. It's just something I've been thinking about and trying to find a different solution to. I think the best way might be limiting spellcasters in an interesting way.
I have seen people with this point of view a lot and I think they forget that anyone can attempt to disarm, trip or some othe battle master maneuver. The battle master has trained to do those things as part of an attack. The mechanics of the game don’t allowed called shots, but the battle master gets trip attack as a maneuver. Everyone shouldn’t be able to deal damage and trip as an attack. Those who aren’t trained in that have to use the shove action and knock their opponent prone. Disarming an enemy would be an opposing Str or dex check and depending on the weapon it might even be at disadvantage. Taking someone’s weapon is really hard assuming they know how to use it.
If you want get past limited uses just say they could keep doing it but each time the mental and physical stress is to much and they start gaining levels of exhaustion to keep doing maneuvers. While clearly not all maneuvers carry the same mental or physical toll it’s a game.
I try not to crap on them, because a lot of people like them, but honestly I really don't like Battle Master Maneuvers. I don't like that they have a dice pool. I don't like that they mostly cover things that any Fighter should just normally be able to do naturally. Or anyone else for that matter. I don't like how convoluted some of them are trying to be balanced but just ending up sad. I think they were a neat idea that was badly implemented and clunky for lackluster results. I really don't want them to be the default for those reasons. But since so many others love them, and I'm just one person, I'm okay with conceeding to the majority.
If they were to be expanded to include different utility abilities and superhuman feats, then yes I do think they would start to feel like spells. Because I never thought most of them should be limited to any class or subclass at all. Everyone should be able to try to disarm someone. So to make them unique and powerful, you'd have to make them something no normal person could do. And then you have to ensure their uses are still limited. And at that point they are just spells with a new coat of paint.
But that's just my feelings on it. I'm not opposed to changing the game in any direction that make people happy. I was just wondering if there is any way, using the current mechanics, to make a martial feel as powerful or versatile as a caster, without resorting to superhuman powers. It looks like your answer is no. And that's totally cool. It's just something I've been thinking about and trying to find a different solution to. I think the best way might be limiting spellcasters in an interesting way.
I have seen people with this point of view a lot and I think they forget that anyone can attempt to disarm, trip or some othe battle master maneuver. The battle master has trained to do those things as part of an attack. The mechanics of the game don’t allowed called shots, but the battle master gets trip attack as a maneuver. Everyone shouldn’t be able to deal damage and trip as an attack. Those who aren’t trained in that have to use the shove action and knock their opponent prone. Disarming an enemy would be an opposing Str or dex check and depending on the weapon it might even be at disadvantage. Taking someone’s weapon is really hard assuming they know how to use it.
If you want get past limited uses just say they could keep doing it but each time the mental and physical stress is to much and they start gaining levels of exhaustion to keep doing maneuvers. While clearly not all maneuvers carry the same mental or physical toll it’s a game.
I understand, but just didn't want to get into all the weeds with it, looking at each individual maneuver. Maybe disarm wasn't the best example. But it all gets into the part I was saying about being overworked and convoluted.
The Battle Master could have just one feature that says you can do anything anyone else could do to an enemy with an Action, and still get to make your attacks.
But it doesn't. It tries to make some normal actions into a special attack, makes some things that anyone should be able to do into a special action, and makes some things that could just be a feature turn into a complicated mess that isn't worth it. And to make the maneuvers look good, normal actions are so restrictive in comparison that many people either never do them, or think they actually can't.
I can go through the whole list one by one if anybody would find it helpful. But again it's just my opinion that they were a good idea that was poorly done. They aren't all too complex to work out, or bad abilities, they are just too messy for what they are trying to do, for me.
Okay so this is my one thought that came up when Knock was mentioned awhile back with a note that it had some drawbacks. That got me thinking. Knock is a great spell.
I love Knock. For one it just feels like very old school DnD because of my early experiences with it. It's a dungeon crawl spell. And even though I don't play a lot of dungeon crawls anymore, the idea still has a special place in my heart.
But the other reason it is great is that there is a price to be paid for casting it. It's loud. Very loud. It could alert monsters to your location. It could raise the suspicions of guards. Having your Rogue pick the lock is always going to be safer. But if you can't do that, there's a spell for it.
Another awesome spell in its design is Friends. People seldom use this cantrip because of its cost. The person you charm with it knows you did something when it ends and they get mad. That's a fantastic spell design. That's what a charm should feel like.
A lot of fantasy and other games have a cost for casting magic. Not a resource to spend. But an in-universe cost to the caster. I don't think DnD is really the place for things like accumulating Madness points, or Corruption, or anything like that outside of certain classes. But I do think that DnD is the perfect place for things that make adventures more unpredictable. The place for heroes to make decisions that work in the moment, but cause more problems down the line.
So the thought of Knock got me considering this angle. What if more spells were written this way? What if magic utility came with an in world cost? Not in resources or philosophical harm. But in things that could lead to more adventure? To wilder stories?
What if every utility spell a Wizard cast was useful, but also not as desirable as just having a skilled character perform the mundane task? A risk for the reward. Magic is a shortcut. And shortcuts can be tricky.
Actually, a really great idea. Messing with reality should have costs and side effects. As much as I love using mind-affecting magic, if charming could simply force NPCs into becoming allies without repercussions, that would kill the investigation and intrigue aspects of the game. Like, you don't need to win the favor of an NPC by favors or blackmail, you can do it for the price of a spell slot! Same reason why I consider all magic to be easily noticeable, so that you can't get away with publicly using magic (that's what sorcerer's subtle spell is for).
Yeah I like to tell my players to imagine Somatic components looking as obvious as Dr Strange drawing glowing circles in the air, and Verbal components sounding like the equivalent of an anime character announcing the name of every attack. It doesn't have to be quite yelling, but you have to say the words with some conviction behind them. DnD magic has to be a little over the top or none of the rules for it work right.
Briefly surrounded by silvery mist, you teleport up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space that you can see. The experience causes you to sh*t your pants. Don't wanna sh*t your pants? Play a Monk next time.
What came to mind after reading this, is that Misty Step should only teleport you.. not your weapons, armour, or other equipment. So sure you can teleport out of the jaws of the monster but now you're in nothing but jeans & a t-shirt facing down a purple worm...
Nerfs aren't the way in this situation. We should not be making casters less fun to play but buffing martials up to par with casters. And you can do this without causing a buff spiral as long as you keep the caster power level static and simply target that power level when you are buffing martials.
In what way is sh*tting your pants every time you cast misty step less fun? I feel like adding costs to spells would be a fun mechanic.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Okay so this is my one thought that came up when Knock was mentioned awhile back with a note that it had some drawbacks. That got me thinking. Knock is a great spell.
I love Knock. For one it just feels like very old school DnD because of my early experiences with it. It's a dungeon crawl spell. And even though I don't play a lot of dungeon crawls anymore, the idea still has a special place in my heart.
But the other reason it is great is that there is a price to be paid for casting it. It's loud. Very loud. It could alert monsters to your location. It could raise the suspicions of guards. Having your Rogue pick the lock is always going to be safer. But if you can't do that, there's a spell for it.
Another awesome spell in its design is Friends. People seldom use this cantrip because of its cost. The person you charm with it knows you did something when it ends and they get mad. That's a fantastic spell design. That's what a charm should feel like.
A lot of fantasy and other games have a cost for casting magic. Not a resource to spend. But an in-universe cost to the caster. I don't think DnD is really the place for things like accumulating Madness points, or Corruption, or anything like that outside of certain classes. But I do think that DnD is the perfect place for things that make adventures more unpredictable. The place for heroes to make decisions that work in the moment, but cause more problems down the line.
So the thought of Knock got me considering this angle. What if more spells were written this way? What if magic utility came with an in world cost? Not in resources or philosophical harm. But in things that could lead to more adventure? To wilder stories?
What if every utility spell a Wizard cast was useful, but also not as desirable as just having a skilled character perform the mundane task? A risk for the reward. Magic is a shortcut. And shortcuts can be tricky.
Actually, a really great idea. Messing with reality should have costs and side effects. As much as I love using mind-affecting magic, if charming could simply force NPCs into becoming allies without repercussions, that would kill the investigation and intrigue aspects of the game. Like, you don't need to win the favor of an NPC by favors or blackmail, you can do it for the price of a spell slot! Same reason why I consider all magic to be easily noticeable, so that you can't get away with publicly using magic (that's what sorcerer's subtle spell is for).
Yeah I like to tell my players to imagine Somatic components looking as obvious as Dr Strange drawing glowing circles in the air, and Verbal components sounding like the equivalent of an anime character announcing the name of every attack. It doesn't have to be quite yelling, but you have to say the words with some conviction behind them. DnD magic has to be a little over the top or none of the rules for it work right.
Magic has to be over the top martials have to be as plain as possible, that seems like its asking for things not to balance out.
Okay so this is my one thought that came up when Knock was mentioned awhile back with a note that it had some drawbacks. That got me thinking. Knock is a great spell.
I love Knock. For one it just feels like very old school DnD because of my early experiences with it. It's a dungeon crawl spell. And even though I don't play a lot of dungeon crawls anymore, the idea still has a special place in my heart.
But the other reason it is great is that there is a price to be paid for casting it. It's loud. Very loud. It could alert monsters to your location. It could raise the suspicions of guards. Having your Rogue pick the lock is always going to be safer. But if you can't do that, there's a spell for it.
Another awesome spell in its design is Friends. People seldom use this cantrip because of its cost. The person you charm with it knows you did something when it ends and they get mad. That's a fantastic spell design. That's what a charm should feel like.
A lot of fantasy and other games have a cost for casting magic. Not a resource to spend. But an in-universe cost to the caster. I don't think DnD is really the place for things like accumulating Madness points, or Corruption, or anything like that outside of certain classes. But I do think that DnD is the perfect place for things that make adventures more unpredictable. The place for heroes to make decisions that work in the moment, but cause more problems down the line.
So the thought of Knock got me considering this angle. What if more spells were written this way? What if magic utility came with an in world cost? Not in resources or philosophical harm. But in things that could lead to more adventure? To wilder stories?
What if every utility spell a Wizard cast was useful, but also not as desirable as just having a skilled character perform the mundane task? A risk for the reward. Magic is a shortcut. And shortcuts can be tricky.
Actually, a really great idea. Messing with reality should have costs and side effects. As much as I love using mind-affecting magic, if charming could simply force NPCs into becoming allies without repercussions, that would kill the investigation and intrigue aspects of the game. Like, you don't need to win the favor of an NPC by favors or blackmail, you can do it for the price of a spell slot! Same reason why I consider all magic to be easily noticeable, so that you can't get away with publicly using magic (that's what sorcerer's subtle spell is for).
Yeah I like to tell my players to imagine Somatic components looking as obvious as Dr Strange drawing glowing circles in the air, and Verbal components sounding like the equivalent of an anime character announcing the name of every attack. It doesn't have to be quite yelling, but you have to say the words with some conviction behind them. DnD magic has to be a little over the top or none of the rules for it work right.
Magic has to be over the top martials have to be as plain as possible, that seems like its asking for things not to balance out.
Huh? I never said anything kind that. We were talking about Verbal and Somatic components. They have be a little flashy or the rules dont make sense. When casting a spell. Verbal components can't be whispers and somatic components can't be a subtle flick of the finger or that would be the Subtle Spell metamagic. A somatic component has to be a big enough gesture that manacles would prevent it. A Verbal component has to be loud enough to hear. We're only talking about how it looks and sounds.
Briefly surrounded by silvery mist, you teleport up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space that you can see. The experience causes you to sh*t your pants. Don't wanna sh*t your pants? Play a Monk next time.
What came to mind after reading this, is that Misty Step should only teleport you.. not your weapons, armour, or other equipment. So sure you can teleport out of the jaws of the monster but now you're in nothing but jeans & a t-shirt facing down a purple worm...
Nerfs aren't the way in this situation. We should not be making casters less fun to play but buffing martials up to par with casters. And you can do this without causing a buff spiral as long as you keep the caster power level static and simply target that power level when you are buffing martials.
In what way is sh*tting your pants every time you cast misty step less fun? I feel like adding costs to spells would be a fun mechanic.
Losing your equipment every time you cast misty step makes it a very bad spell. The cost makes the spell not worthwhile to the point where you are better off staying in the bad situation rather than using the spell. I don't think most players would find misty step making you lose all of your equipment to be fun.
Briefly surrounded by silvery mist, you teleport up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space that you can see. The experience causes you to sh*t your pants. Don't wanna sh*t your pants? Play a Monk next time.
What came to mind after reading this, is that Misty Step should only teleport you.. not your weapons, armour, or other equipment. So sure you can teleport out of the jaws of the monster but now you're in nothing but jeans & a t-shirt facing down a purple worm...
Nerfs aren't the way in this situation. We should not be making casters less fun to play but buffing martials up to par with casters. And you can do this without causing a buff spiral as long as you keep the caster power level static and simply target that power level when you are buffing martials.
In what way is sh*tting your pants every time you cast misty step less fun? I feel like adding costs to spells would be a fun mechanic.
Losing your equipment every time you cast misty step makes it a very bad spell. The cost makes the spell not worthwhile to the point where you are better off staying in the bad situation rather than using the spell. I don't think most players would find misty step making you lose all of your equipment to be fun.
Making a spell worthless is not fun in my book.
Well yeah, obviously that example makes it useless, but I'm 90% sure that example is a joke.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Briefly surrounded by silvery mist, you teleport up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space that you can see. The experience causes you to sh*t your pants. Don't wanna sh*t your pants? Play a Monk next time.
What came to mind after reading this, is that Misty Step should only teleport you.. not your weapons, armour, or other equipment. So sure you can teleport out of the jaws of the monster but now you're in nothing but jeans & a t-shirt facing down a purple worm...
Nerfs aren't the way in this situation. We should not be making casters less fun to play but buffing martials up to par with casters. And you can do this without causing a buff spiral as long as you keep the caster power level static and simply target that power level when you are buffing martials.
In what way is sh*tting your pants every time you cast misty step less fun? I feel like adding costs to spells would be a fun mechanic.
Losing your equipment every time you cast misty step makes it a very bad spell. The cost makes the spell not worthwhile to the point where you are better off staying in the bad situation rather than using the spell. I don't think most players would find misty step making you lose all of your equipment to be fun.
Making a spell worthless is not fun in my book.
Well yeah, obviously that example makes it useless, but I'm 90% sure that example is a joke.
Considering how they directly responded to me in an attempt to justify Misty Step having such a massive downside, I feel like they were serious. The manner in which they responded didn't leave any room for sarcasm or indication that it was a joke.
I'll even quote it so you can determine for yourself.
Nonsense there are still many ways to use the spell, and it would make teamwork even more important. If you needed to misty step in combat better use it to get close to one of your allies that has a backup wand you can grab until the end of the fight. Out of combat you could still Misty Step out of a room through a key hole but you better have an extra casting to teleport back where you were (MS is Verbal only) in case you run into some enemies...
Well, I don't think anyone needs to worry. WotC is probably never going to make Misty Step cause an accident in your pants, or teleport you out of them. So I think everyone is safe there haha.
But I could see a low level teleport causing some kind of teleportation sickness. Being dazed for a moment after arriving at your location. The degree of the penalty would be dependant on the value of the effect and level.
What I noticed is this devolved from a warrior wish list into hate on casters list.
Pretty much, feels like whenever you try to buff up martials to be on the same power level as casters, you end up with people trying to nerf casters into the ground.
Some nerfs can make sense, like if a spell is out of line for all other spells of its level, sure nerf that spell. But this has really become a make spellcasters suck list.
What I noticed is this devolved from a warrior wish list into hate on casters list.
I'm sorry I'm at least partially to blame for that. There was talk about things like feat trees, advanced battle master maneuvers, and other ways to give fighters utility, or combat actions that caused conditions. I asked if there was any way to give a fighter utility and combat flexibility without imitating spells. I was just curious if that was the only way to go.
To be clear, I don't hate spellcasters, or even the idea of superhuman martials. I just wondered if that was the only option. Because if it is, I feel like you lose out on some of the identity of a Fighter, and some of the character concepts that people love. If Warrior abilities start replicating spells with their effects and limited uses, then they start getting fuzzy on their role in the game for people.
There is a recognized divide between martials and casters. To talk about buffs to Warriors, we are going to be addressing that in some way. Most people are asking for things to bridge that gap. It just got me thinking about how that could be possible.
Over the years, casters have lost most of the restrictions they had in the past for balance. But the spells retained their full power to just instantly solve problems with very little risk. Spell slots don't even matter in a lot of games the way they are played now. So one way I saw to fix that was to make spells have a small cost that could make them more situational. So characters who depend on mundane powers like skills were more useful alternatives some of the time.
I do believe that nerfs are very useful for balance. If everyone just gets buffed all the time, the game moves into a different genre eventually. Parties of demigod superheroes can be a lot of fun, but it just strays further from a game where a street urchin can grow into a master thief without divine intervention. Exhalted is a cool game, it's just not the same as DnD.
But maybe that needs to be a thread of its own at this point. I was just wondering how I could answer the original question of improving Warriors, knowing that they will always be compared to casters. I apologize for derailing the conversation so much.
What I noticed is this devolved from a warrior wish list into hate on casters list.
I'm sorry I'm at least partially to blame for that. There was talk about things like feat trees, advanced battle master maneuvers, and other ways to give fighters utility, or combat actions that caused conditions. I asked if there was any way to give a fighter utility and combat flexibility without imitating spells. I was just curious if that was the only way to go.
To be clear, I don't hate spellcasters, or even the idea of superhuman martials. I just wondered if that was the only option. Because if it is, I feel like you lose out on some of the identity of a Fighter, and some of the character concepts that people love. If Warrior abilities start replicating spells with their effects and limited uses, then they start getting fuzzy on their role in the game for people.
There is a recognized divide between martials and casters. To talk about buffs to Warriors, we are going to be addressing that in some way. Most people are asking for things to bridge that gap. It just got me thinking about how that could be possible.
Over the years, casters have lost most of the restrictions they had in the past for balance. But the spells retained their full power to just instantly solve problems with very little risk. Spell slots don't even matter in a lot of games the way they are played now. So one way I saw to fix that was to make spells have a small cost that could make them more situational. So characters who depend on mundane powers like skills were more useful alternatives some of the time.
I do believe that nerfs are very useful for balance. If everyone just gets buffed all the time, the game moves into a different genre eventually. Parties of demigod superheroes can be a lot of fun, but it just strays further from a game where a street urchin can grow into a master thief without divine intervention. Exhalted is a cool game, it's just not the same as DnD.
But maybe that needs to be a thread of its own at this point. I was just wondering how I could answer the original question of improving Warriors, knowing that they will always be compared to casters. I apologize for derailing the conversation so much.
It’s all good. I only said something because I caught myself about to nerf some spells to put them more in line with knock. Wizards open locks far better than rogues, but everyone nearby knows they did it. I think that’s a good balance, but that’s not on topic.
The easiest way to match martials to casters power level is to steal from the 4e power system, but it just adds so much complexity to the game. I would think it could be altered to work on a stamina point or exploit point system instead of daily and encounter powers. Honestly it probably could be brought over as is and be a quick and easy fix. But yeah it’s basically I cast “Passing strike” that allows me to attack this guy and move up to 10 ft and attack this guy also. Except instead of saying cast you say use, so it’s totally different than a spell lol. I think the original design of 5e was spellcasters get powerful limited use thing and as the day goes on they have to decide when to use them. Everyone else using skills can keep using them all day. Martials are just as effective in fight 5 of a day as they were in fight 1 if they had a short rest. Well in actual play no one really short rest and the day ends when the caster has no spells. I’ve literally watched casters bully there parties into long resting because they burned through their spell slots.
The easiest way to match martials to casters power level is to steal from the 4e power system, but it just adds so much complexity to the game. I would think it could be altered to work on a stamina point or exploit point system instead of daily and encounter powers
OMG, this is what all the pbtplr is doing.... It's turning 5e into 4e by making loads of stuff as daily powers.... and the homogenization of spell lists by clustering all the classes into the three spell lists..... One D&D is the merging of 5e with 4e!
The easiest way to match martials to casters power level is to steal from the 4e power system, but it just adds so much complexity to the game. I would think it could be altered to work on a stamina point or exploit point system instead of daily and encounter powers
OMG, this is what all the pbtplr is doing.... It's turning 5e into 4e by making loads of stuff as daily powers.... and the homogenization of spell lists by clustering all the classes into the three spell lists..... One D&D is the merging of 5e with 4e!
The 3 spell list thing is pretty anti 4e. If you remember everyone got their own powers that pretty much all did the same things with different flavor text in 4e. The spell list thing was to make it easier to add spells later. Also they wanted to let all classes prepare spells. The warrior group is still the focus here.
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Why can't barbarians cast spells like a warlock?
The same reason a barbarian can't cast spells or a wizard doesn't get a 3rd attack at 11th level would be why spell casters can't do these things. Their heroic leveling goes towards magic not towards enhancing their natural abilities. Though for the bard honestly I don't think they should be spell casters at all. I'd of made them martials with powerful abilities to inspire, control and terrify in a mundane way.
Your AC and defense are still shot and enemies can now focus you down much more easily. You are actually in a better position restrained, grappled, or even swallowed, especially if you are a martial character that gained access to misty step. Grappled doesn't affect your attack rolls and restrain doesn't prevent you from casting spells and restrained has no effect on your spellcasting if the spell makes no attack rolls. Rather than grab a backup wand.
It isn't nonsense. You become more of a liability and it is honestly better to stay in that position than use misty step if it makes you lose your equipment. Honestly better to be swallowed and fight from the inside and work with your team mates to see if you can make the target vomit you out or just kill it before the acid damage kills you. You are more useful grappled/restrained/swallowed with your equipment than free without your equipment.
Again, nerfs aren't the way in this situation. We should not be making casters less fun to play but buffing martials up to par with casters. And you can do this without causing a buff spiral as long as you keep the caster power level static and simply target that power level when you are buffing martials.
Fair enough but I do not understand how anyone can look at a dude who can beat a dragon to death with a stick as anything less than insanely super human already. You can get booted off a 1000 foot cliff, turf it and shake it off like its nothing. You can wade through lava in a loin cloth, pull yourself out and beat a fire giant to death. I have never perceived the fighters as just a normal dude with a sword, I can't see how anyone does. I don't find any of my suggestions as any more magical or superhuman than what a fighter already does.
I have seen people with this point of view a lot and I think they forget that anyone can attempt to disarm, trip or some othe battle master maneuver. The battle master has trained to do those things as part of an attack. The mechanics of the game don’t allowed called shots, but the battle master gets trip attack as a maneuver. Everyone shouldn’t be able to deal damage and trip as an attack. Those who aren’t trained in that have to use the shove action and knock their opponent prone. Disarming an enemy would be an opposing Str or dex check and depending on the weapon it might even be at disadvantage. Taking someone’s weapon is really hard assuming they know how to use it.
If you want get past limited uses just say they could keep doing it but each time the mental and physical stress is to much and they start gaining levels of exhaustion to keep doing maneuvers. While clearly not all maneuvers carry the same mental or physical toll it’s a game.
I understand, but just didn't want to get into all the weeds with it, looking at each individual maneuver. Maybe disarm wasn't the best example. But it all gets into the part I was saying about being overworked and convoluted.
The Battle Master could have just one feature that says you can do anything anyone else could do to an enemy with an Action, and still get to make your attacks.
But it doesn't. It tries to make some normal actions into a special attack, makes some things that anyone should be able to do into a special action, and makes some things that could just be a feature turn into a complicated mess that isn't worth it. And to make the maneuvers look good, normal actions are so restrictive in comparison that many people either never do them, or think they actually can't.
I can go through the whole list one by one if anybody would find it helpful. But again it's just my opinion that they were a good idea that was poorly done. They aren't all too complex to work out, or bad abilities, they are just too messy for what they are trying to do, for me.
Yeah I like to tell my players to imagine Somatic components looking as obvious as Dr Strange drawing glowing circles in the air, and Verbal components sounding like the equivalent of an anime character announcing the name of every attack. It doesn't have to be quite yelling, but you have to say the words with some conviction behind them. DnD magic has to be a little over the top or none of the rules for it work right.
In what way is sh*tting your pants every time you cast misty step less fun? I feel like adding costs to spells would be a fun mechanic.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Magic has to be over the top martials have to be as plain as possible, that seems like its asking for things not to balance out.
Huh? I never said anything kind that. We were talking about Verbal and Somatic components. They have be a little flashy or the rules dont make sense. When casting a spell. Verbal components can't be whispers and somatic components can't be a subtle flick of the finger or that would be the Subtle Spell metamagic. A somatic component has to be a big enough gesture that manacles would prevent it. A Verbal component has to be loud enough to hear. We're only talking about how it looks and sounds.
Losing your equipment every time you cast misty step makes it a very bad spell. The cost makes the spell not worthwhile to the point where you are better off staying in the bad situation rather than using the spell. I don't think most players would find misty step making you lose all of your equipment to be fun.
Making a spell worthless is not fun in my book.
Well yeah, obviously that example makes it useless, but I'm 90% sure that example is a joke.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Considering how they directly responded to me in an attempt to justify Misty Step having such a massive downside, I feel like they were serious. The manner in which they responded didn't leave any room for sarcasm or indication that it was a joke.
I'll even quote it so you can determine for yourself.
Well, I don't think anyone needs to worry. WotC is probably never going to make Misty Step cause an accident in your pants, or teleport you out of them. So I think everyone is safe there haha.
But I could see a low level teleport causing some kind of teleportation sickness. Being dazed for a moment after arriving at your location. The degree of the penalty would be dependant on the value of the effect and level.
What I noticed is this devolved from a warrior wish list into hate on casters list.
Pretty much, feels like whenever you try to buff up martials to be on the same power level as casters, you end up with people trying to nerf casters into the ground.
Some nerfs can make sense, like if a spell is out of line for all other spells of its level, sure nerf that spell. But this has really become a make spellcasters suck list.
I'm sorry I'm at least partially to blame for that. There was talk about things like feat trees, advanced battle master maneuvers, and other ways to give fighters utility, or combat actions that caused conditions. I asked if there was any way to give a fighter utility and combat flexibility without imitating spells. I was just curious if that was the only way to go.
To be clear, I don't hate spellcasters, or even the idea of superhuman martials. I just wondered if that was the only option. Because if it is, I feel like you lose out on some of the identity of a Fighter, and some of the character concepts that people love. If Warrior abilities start replicating spells with their effects and limited uses, then they start getting fuzzy on their role in the game for people.
There is a recognized divide between martials and casters. To talk about buffs to Warriors, we are going to be addressing that in some way. Most people are asking for things to bridge that gap. It just got me thinking about how that could be possible.
Over the years, casters have lost most of the restrictions they had in the past for balance. But the spells retained their full power to just instantly solve problems with very little risk. Spell slots don't even matter in a lot of games the way they are played now. So one way I saw to fix that was to make spells have a small cost that could make them more situational. So characters who depend on mundane powers like skills were more useful alternatives some of the time.
I do believe that nerfs are very useful for balance. If everyone just gets buffed all the time, the game moves into a different genre eventually. Parties of demigod superheroes can be a lot of fun, but it just strays further from a game where a street urchin can grow into a master thief without divine intervention. Exhalted is a cool game, it's just not the same as DnD.
But maybe that needs to be a thread of its own at this point. I was just wondering how I could answer the original question of improving Warriors, knowing that they will always be compared to casters. I apologize for derailing the conversation so much.
It’s all good. I only said something because I caught myself about to nerf some spells to put them more in line with knock. Wizards open locks far better than rogues, but everyone nearby knows they did it. I think that’s a good balance, but that’s not on topic.
The easiest way to match martials to casters power level is to steal from the 4e power system, but it just adds so much complexity to the game. I would think it could be altered to work on a stamina point or exploit point system instead of daily and encounter powers. Honestly it probably could be brought over as is and be a quick and easy fix. But yeah it’s basically I cast “Passing strike” that allows me to attack this guy and move up to 10 ft and attack this guy also. Except instead of saying cast you say use, so it’s totally different than a spell lol. I think the original design of 5e was spellcasters get powerful limited use thing and as the day goes on they have to decide when to use them. Everyone else using skills can keep using them all day. Martials are just as effective in fight 5 of a day as they were in fight 1 if they had a short rest. Well in actual play no one really short rest and the day ends when the caster has no spells. I’ve literally watched casters bully there parties into long resting because they burned through their spell slots.
OMG, this is what all the pbtplr is doing.... It's turning 5e into 4e by making loads of stuff as daily powers.... and the homogenization of spell lists by clustering all the classes into the three spell lists..... One D&D is the merging of 5e with 4e!
The 3 spell list thing is pretty anti 4e. If you remember everyone got their own powers that pretty much all did the same things with different flavor text in 4e. The spell list thing was to make it easier to add spells later. Also they wanted to let all classes prepare spells. The warrior group is still the focus here.